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Bye bye Latias! Bring in the apes...
- Thread starter firecape
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Breloom requires different methodology than the norm because its use of Spore and Substitute flow against the usual battle tactics. Salamence requires different methodology than the norm because its power and speed mean that it will kill something. When you spot Breloom, you ask yourself what you can allow to get Spored; when you spot Salamence, you ask yourself what you can allow to get killed.
If Breloom is behind a Sub then he only has two move slots left for attacks. It's not too hard to find something that can break his sub without taking too much damage and then outspeed and OHKO him. (Also, Substitute kind of sucks on non-Subseed 'Looms.)
The main problem people have with Loom is that they don't know what they're doing. So many people I've played make the mistake of when I bring in Breloom on something like Swampert they switch to something with Natural Cure to take the sleep. This gives me two options, first I can just Spore the next switch-in, which is most likely your best Breloom counter, or better yet fire off a Focus Punch / Stone Edge on the switch-in and I get to come back later and start the whole series over again by coming back in on Swampert.
The main problem people have with Loom is that they don't know what they're doing. So many people I've played make the mistake of when I bring in Breloom on something like Swampert they switch to something with Natural Cure to take the sleep. This gives me two options, first I can just Spore the next switch-in, which is most likely your best Breloom counter, or better yet fire off a Focus Punch / Stone Edge on the switch-in and I get to come back later and start the whole series over again by coming back in on Swampert.
Sounds like that Breloom did a number to your team.
lol
Breloom can sleep my wall because later in the game, it can take hits from something else and wake up. Then I switch in Salamence and laugh. Once Mence gets banned, repeat the process with Dnite, Cresselia, Celebi, or any OU Ghost, because Seed Bomb doesn't KO Rotom-A, Dusky, or Gengar (Gengar can OHKO with LO Shadow Ball too). Jirachi, Brozong, and Metagross will even work, provided they have a move to KO it before Focus Punch and Seed Bomb do. Leech Seed Breloom loses to Celebi and Taunt.
If you are not prepared for Breloom, you're probably going to lose a Pokemon. However, Breloom relies on its STABs to deal its damage, one of which isn't functional when it's not behind a sub. It's not difficult to counter, but Spore definitely complicates things.
There's no Pokemon with Insomnia in OU. The simplest way to beat Breloom is to send in a Crobat, who x4 resists both its stab moves. Stone Edge is a threat, but eh, you'll outspeed. And Stone Edge may not even be present on the Breloom.
Breloom is really annoying. So much so that I put him on any team I have that doesn't have much other status :)
But one way i deal with him is after letting a poke sleep I send in scizor. 9 times out of 10 they will sub, after which you u-turn and then switch to one of your pokes that resists/immune to focus punch.
Outside of a u-turner though (and they get ohko'ed by focus punch, not that much can switch on breloom without taking hefty damage. Salamence takes ~ 40% from focus punch, Defensive rotom take ~50% from seed bomb, as does bulkydos. Gliscor only takes ~34% from seed bomb but can't roost.
But one way i deal with him is after letting a poke sleep I send in scizor. 9 times out of 10 they will sub, after which you u-turn and then switch to one of your pokes that resists/immune to focus punch.
Outside of a u-turner though (and they get ohko'ed by focus punch, not that much can switch on breloom without taking hefty damage. Salamence takes ~ 40% from focus punch, Defensive rotom take ~50% from seed bomb, as does bulkydos. Gliscor only takes ~34% from seed bomb but can't roost.
Honch is a little shaky because some people sub first turn, but whatever, that's not the point. Focus Punch + Seed Bomb doesn't kill anywhere close to the entire metagame and Breloom still suffers from low speed and horrible special def. Very easy to prey on.
Dude just let Breloom sleep a status absorber/sleeptalker then lol at it with moltres, salamence or skarmory.
Breloom should never get a sub up unless you were switching to something to counter it. Otherwise you just break the sub--what else would you be doing, letting it set up? Intelligent players using a set with Substitute on it (the most dangerous of these is the SubSeeder) will Substitute first, knowing that this eases prediction for Spore and also knowing that you don't want to waste your sleep on, say, a Clefable, when you can just Sub as it switches in, seed it or punch it, and watch it die. You can take advantage of this by switching in something with Taunt or Encore the first turn you see Breloom. On the off chance that they Spored, yes, something is asleep, but now they can't sleep anything else and they're dead. At least ONE other Pokemon on your team must have a Fire, Ice, Flying, or Psychic move, right? If they played it safe and Subbed, you can Taunt it or Encore it (thus forcing it to leave).
Alternately, you can switch in something faster than Breloom which knows Substitute. Your own Substitute blocks everything on Breloom that's not an attacking move (i.e. Spore and Leech Seed), meaning that it can't do anything to you until its Sub is broken one turn later. Once the Sub is down you're faster and you win. If it attacks, thus breaking your sub, you attack back and take the hit. Hopefully whatever you switched in isn't weak to Focus Punch.
Anything faster than Breloom with a Lum Berry that can OHKO beats it, because either it Subs on the switch or it Spores on the switch. If it Spored on the switch, it has no sub, and you can OHKO next turn. If it Subbed, you can break the Sub while it Spores to no effect and OHKO the next turn.
Again, you could just take the sleep.
The thing that makes Breloom so dangerous is that people don't think the right way when they try to counter it. Too many people think like this:
So many times I've seen someone switch in a Starmie when I have a Sub up, watch me Spore, and switch out to their counter as I put up a sub. Well, great, now I can sleep your main counter to Breloom because Natural Cure prevented the sleep clause from stopping me. Thanks.
As long as you think about Breloom the right way it's not terribly dangerous. The problem is that hardly anyone does, and thus it is one of the most dangerous Pokemon in the metagame.
TheValkyries
proudly reppin' 2 superbowl wins since DEFLATEGATE
How are we talking about Breloom and not mentioning Gengar?
As a counter to it or as something else that's a threat? Because, yes, Gengar is along with Skarm and Togekiss among the best counters to Breloom. Though you have to be running Substitute to keep the SubSeeder from slowly killing you (assuming you don't have Lum Berry).
Awesome, we've gone from praise that Latias is gone, to Sala banning, to Breloom! Jumping on the bandwagon I do gotta say I agree that Breloom should be moved...somewhere. Leech Seed/Poison Heal combination lets him get back more HP required than to make a substitute. He doesn't even need to attack. It'll just keep setting up subs and sapping your HP while you lose a guy. Does it have counters? Yeah. Its been said that anything that can take the Focus Punch and can roar it out will get rid of it for the moment. But what happens when you lose the Roar/Whirlwinder to whatever else and Breloom gets brought back? It wreaks havoc all over again. Its almost as if these guys like Salamence, Breloom, and Jirachi need their own BL tier between OU and Uber. I do also agree that if Sala gets banned then the next big strong attacker to take its place will start getting grief and people will be begging for it to be banned.
I like how to you it's meaningful that nothing already in OU has Insomnia, yet you proceed to point out a non OU pokemon as your choice counter...
There needs to be a BlackBerry-compatible Shoddy client, I want to try out this metagame... It sounds fascinating. Could be a real huge shakeup from the current Standard if given enough time. Lots of opportunity for new faces to emerge as well as old faces returning to fame...
You cant just switch Honchkrow into Breloom if he decides to FP you instead of Spore.
Ok I had to say something because you are so obviously clueless making the "uber BL" arguement. Uber is a banlist, no if ands or buts, and a pokemon is put onto the banlist if it is to powerful in the standard metagame. Why would there need to be a semi-banlist? Its still banned so whats the point? And also, what are you talking abou!? You dont need a phazer for breloom...how about killing it. Subseed is taken out easily by taunt, or simply not letting it set up, by hammering it with what you got in. Breloom isn't that fast and it has pretty poor defences. And celebi is an easy counter to subseed, In addition to rapid spin recover starmie, who can stall it out of leach seeds and laugh at focus punch, as im pretty sure (correct me if I'm wrong) subseed brelooms carry focus punch? Also how do you figure Jirachi is uber, It relies on hax to be good, which isn't reliable.
As someone who's used a SubSeed Breloom to decent effect I have a few things to say...
Firstly... Any ghost-type is amazing against SubSeeding Loom. Specifically those faster and with Substitute. You will always force it out. You do have to fear Spore, so the whole "letting someone sleep" rule still applies here. Pairing your Ghost-type with a RestTalker works well.
Celebi is amazingly useful against MOST Breloom. Sadly if the Breloom player is wise they can play around it (I've had several Celebi users TRY to counter Breloom but they either let me Spore them and stay in or they switch and let me Focus Punch something or Leech Seed them.
It was said previously that wise SubSeed Breloom users Sub first, this is a given. Skarm ISN'T a brilliant Breloom counter. Not only does it hate being Spore if it switches in but it takes a heck load from any Focus Punch, unable to Roost off the damage without being punched in the face again.
Taunt Gyara is also amazing against it. Sadly, what I have said only really applies to SubSeed Breloom. The general Breloom (with Seed Bomb) don't mind the ghost-types as much as the SubSeeeders do (Gengar could still be an issue but...yeah. =\)
Basically... Breloom can be played around, but if you fail to play around it well... You're losing a few Pokemon, or worse... the game.
I've also played opposing Breloom and they aren't issues for me, usually. Could be because I know the general thing they'll aim to do. I don't let my Celebi go in until they've Spored something else (Sup, RestTalk Champ?) and then they lose a Breloom (or their 'advantage' at least).
That's enough rambling from me. =\
Firstly... Any ghost-type is amazing against SubSeeding Loom. Specifically those faster and with Substitute. You will always force it out. You do have to fear Spore, so the whole "letting someone sleep" rule still applies here. Pairing your Ghost-type with a RestTalker works well.
Celebi is amazingly useful against MOST Breloom. Sadly if the Breloom player is wise they can play around it (I've had several Celebi users TRY to counter Breloom but they either let me Spore them and stay in or they switch and let me Focus Punch something or Leech Seed them.
It was said previously that wise SubSeed Breloom users Sub first, this is a given. Skarm ISN'T a brilliant Breloom counter. Not only does it hate being Spore if it switches in but it takes a heck load from any Focus Punch, unable to Roost off the damage without being punched in the face again.
Taunt Gyara is also amazing against it. Sadly, what I have said only really applies to SubSeed Breloom. The general Breloom (with Seed Bomb) don't mind the ghost-types as much as the SubSeeeders do (Gengar could still be an issue but...yeah. =\)
Basically... Breloom can be played around, but if you fail to play around it well... You're losing a few Pokemon, or worse... the game.
I've also played opposing Breloom and they aren't issues for me, usually. Could be because I know the general thing they'll aim to do. I don't let my Celebi go in until they've Spored something else (Sup, RestTalk Champ?) and then they lose a Breloom (or their 'advantage' at least).
That's enough rambling from me. =\
If you're hearing "Infernape is overhyped", DON'T BELIEVE IT. So right now I'm running something like a Special Hyper Offense team on the Suspect ladder at the moment (Hell, half, since I only have LO Starmie, SpecsJolt and NP MixApe), and with Latias banned, it's like cancer with p53 deactivated. Never, EVER underestimate the power of NP MixApe. In the early game, just Fire Blast at anything that moves and pose as an ordinary MixApe. Later in the game, when you know shit like Starmie have been taken out, NP up and sweep. Stall has no chance against this thing if Tentacruel or Vaporeon is gone (RestTalk Gyara is OHKO'd by Grass Knot after an NP).
@shrang - Vaporeon is OHKOd by focus blast at +2 and I'm pretty sure grass knot ignores all boosts including the +2 so it isn't a OHKO on Gyara, even if it doesn't ignore the +2, it definetely ignores life orb right now, so 57% - 67.2% only. You manage that with fire blast, so grass knot should be replaced with either hp electric or vacuum wave as better options. LO Zapdos is pretty beastly too =] I'm trying a Modest Blissey with 220Def/192SpAtk/96Spe /w flamethrower, thunderbolt, ice beam, softboiled on an offensive team later to stop all those special attackers (not infernape but thats what starmie etc is for)! anti metagameeeee yea boiii
@subseeders - SporePunch is so much better :/ Brelooms speed lets it down when it comes to subseeding, I made an awesome ev spread for one once and then was so underwhelmed with Brelooms subseeding abilities it was horrible. if sub had something like 40pp it would be alot more impressive. I know I was playing it fine, it was just forced out way too much and could only muster 2 kills max if they have something with recovery that resists focus punch (plenty). substitute soon ran out of pp effectively making the breloom nigh useless. SporePunch on the other hand...its brutal, just brutal.
@subseeders - SporePunch is so much better :/ Brelooms speed lets it down when it comes to subseeding, I made an awesome ev spread for one once and then was so underwhelmed with Brelooms subseeding abilities it was horrible. if sub had something like 40pp it would be alot more impressive. I know I was playing it fine, it was just forced out way too much and could only muster 2 kills max if they have something with recovery that resists focus punch (plenty). substitute soon ran out of pp effectively making the breloom nigh useless. SporePunch on the other hand...its brutal, just brutal.