Regenerator Ho-Oh and Multiscale Lugia

I really want trickroom to pop in here and make a gigantic post about the greatness of Multiscale Lugia.
I sadly don't have the time to make a gigantic post. Multiscale Lugia is actually a huge advantage when I used it way back in the early generation 5 when many people are playing DW Ubers. The only time I missed Pressure, was when I was walling Ho-Oh. Ho-Oh beats Multiscale Lugia (assuming no Toxic) but not Pressure.

Multiscale is easier to abuse than you think, because this is LUGIA. If Dragonite can abuse it so effectively, why not Lugia, who is way bulkier and faster. Lugia also forces many threats giving you chance to Roost back up to 100%.

Specs Water Spout fails to KO Lugia after Kyogre takes Stealth Rock damage. Even if Lugia takes Stealth Rock damage, lets not forget Lugia is naturally faster than Kyogre, so it can Roost/Recover back up to 100% before Kyogre can land a killing blow. Assuming no crits, Kyogre is owned.

Also about the Kyurem-B hype: Lugia beats Kyurem. Ice Beam doesn't not OHKO, neither does Fusion Bolt does not do that much Lugia to be honest. Lugia can just put up a Reflect/Light Screen and react accordingly even with TerraVolt neutralizing Multiscale. Roost cancels out Lugia's weakness to Ice so good luck killing it with non-Scarf Kyurem-B.

Rayquaza said:
Your only chance at beating either of them with Lugia is running a dual screen set
Really? Lugia can run Light Screen, Roost, Reflect and Dragon Tail/Whirlwind. Lugia deals damage through entry hazards, and it can just drop Toxic if you have other mons to use it or Toxic Spikes.
 
^^^
Pretty sure you can't have both Kyurem-B and Kyurem-W on the same team, so that's a nonissue.
His point was that you cannot put Lugia on your team to wall one, while still being able to wall the other if another team uses it. Though you would never face both of them on one team, you can't change your Lugia's set after seeing the team preview.
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Your only chance at beating either of them with Lugia is running a dual screen set (dual screen on Lugia WTF) in which case Lugia just becomes setup fodder for something else (or even Kyurem-B himself if it's running Hone Claws).
Dual screen Lugia could actually be fairly effective, considering Lugia's great bulk and speed. Its main use would probably be abusing entry hazards, as once Reflect and/or Light Screen are up, Lugia is incredibly difficult to damage, especially with Multiscale and the fact that most pokemon rely on electric or ice type moves to damage it, which only do half as much when Lugia uses Roost. Unfortunately, it would only have one spare moveslot, which would limit its usefulness.

Lugia @ Leftovers / Light Clay
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 8 Def / 248 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -Sp.A)
- Reflect
- Light Screen
- Roost
- Whirlwind

Because of Lugia's high speed (248 Speed EVs with neutral nature allows it to outspeed max speed base 95s), it would be able to set up Reflect or Light Screen before most of its opponents attack. This means it would take 1/4 damage from all attacks that come from slower pokemon if it is at full health and its opponents do not have Mold Breaker, Turboblaze etc. (where it would still only take half damage) It could then proceed to either phase its opponents with Whirlwind or, once screens are set up, switch out to let another pokemon set up to sweep, such as ExtremeKiller Arceus. It would probably be best to use Leftovers instead of Light Clay, as three turns (two if you set up both screens) is plenty for most Pokemon to set up, and Leftovers would give Lugia enough bulk to set screens up more often anyway.
The only pokemon it would have to watch out for would be Scarf Zekrom and Scarf Kyurem-W, who could attack it before it could set up screens and bypass Multiscale to deal 82.2% - 97.1% and 62.5% - 74% with Bolt Strike and Ice Beam respectively (Though Kyurem-W's Ice beam would only have a 70% chance of 2KO without Stealth Rock (assuming Lugia used Light Screen on the first turn)).
 
Rayquaza_ said:
Mewtwo, Darkrai, Thundurus and pretty much anything with Toxic and/or Taunt are just going to make that dual screen Lugia their bitch.

If you need a dual screener in ubers use Latios (who is definitely NOT Taunt bait), Espeon/Xatu (Magic Bounce) or Deoxys-S (faster than everything and has its own Taunt).

A dual screener Lugia is about as threatening and hard to stop as a Rollout Shuckle.
If you're afraid of taunt users, you can run Dragon Tail instead of Whirlwind, but all variants of Lugia have trouble with taunt. Most Mewtwo sets don't threaten Lugia, and though Stalltwo does, it threatens all other Lugia variants if they don't yet have a substitute. While Darkrai does threaten Lugia, it threatens all pokemon it outspeeds if they have no way of healing sleep, so I do not see how it's relevant. Thundurus is just as much a problem to other Lugia variants as it is to this one, being able to easily 2KO them.

Also, if a Pokemon that threatens Lugia switches in, you can always switch out and let other Pokemon on your team take advantage of the screens.

While there may be other Pokemon that are better at setting up dual screens, I was merely mentioning that dual screen Lugia would not be complete set up fodder in Ubers and could be quite useful.
 
Been experimenting with Regenerator Houou...I don't think it's that great really. It can be a cool special tank, but SR herps on it too hard.
 
As someone who reached #1 on the DW Ubers ladder on the PokéBattleCenter server, the Pokémon Online server (and also simultaneously had four other names in the top 10 on that ladder, including one name at #2), the Reborn Server and the Pokémon México server, I will say this right now:

Multiscale Lugia is much better than Pressure Lugia. In fact, with its Dream World Ability, Lugia is the fourth best Pokémon in the entire game, right behind Arceus, Kyogre, and Groudon (by far the deadliest sweeper and most versatile Pokémon ever, and the two dominant weather summoners of the tier, respectively. Lugia is below them only because they are the ones which control the entire metagame). Why? Consider the following Pokémon:

Extreme Killer Arceus, Calm Mind Arceus, Swords Dance and/or Rock Polish Groudon, Palkia, Calm Mind Mewtwo, Dragon Dance or Swords Dance Rayquaza, Deoxys-A, Shaymin-S, Swords Dance Garchomp, Swords Dance Blaziken, Soul Dew Latias and Latios.

Those are all immensely powerful offensive threats found in the harsh environment of the Übers metagame, and can easily punch holes in even the most well-built team, if not sweep them entirely. Yet, the simple inclusion of a Multiscale Lugia in a team with Magic Bounce support instantly neutralizes every single one of the aforementioned destructive threats. Suddenly, the incredible threat that is the opponent's Dragon Dance Rayquaza, which would have otherwise completely demolished one's entire team is reduced to nothing more than a paralyzed serpent with all of the stat boosts it attained nullified by a simple Whirlwind, waiting to be easily picked off by a super effective attack later on in the match, while Lugia can easily Recover (well, Roost, now that it has access to that as well, which makes it even better) back to full health, and act as if its little skirmish with Rayquaza never even happened. The opponent's Swords Dance Rock Polish Groudon, which easily sweeps even the most well-prepared teams simply by coming into a Choice Scarf Terrakion locked into Stone Edge? Lugia Toxifies it and Whirlwinds it out without breaking a sweat. And it is also the ultimate and most reliable counter to Extreme Killer Arceus, by far the best set of by far the best Pokémon in the game.

From my innumerable experiences with building DW Ubers teams, I can safely say that there isn't a single team barring the most hyper-offensive one, in which I have not at least considered the use of a Multiscale Lugia, because it is simply just that good of a wall. It almost completely eliminates the need to utilize clever predictions in order to play around or beat the countless threats in the tier that are otherwise almost uncounterable. While most good Übers teams can check at least most of the threats I mentioned above, can anyone honestly say that they can use a single Pokémon (well, two with Espeon/Xatu to keep Stealth Rock off the field) to not only check, but flat out counter each and every one of those threats? I don't think so.

I have rather limited experience with Wifi Ubers compared to DW Ubers, but from what I have read in this thread, it appears that one of Lugia's primary purposes in Wifi Ubers is to waste the opponent's Pokémon's PPs with Pressure, in conjunction with Roost and moves like Light Screen and Reflect. Well, if that's the case, then you can completely forget about that in DW Ubers, because it's no longer necessary. Now the best use of Lugia is not to stall out PPs, but to not only counter the vast majority of the offensive threats that make up the metagame, but also crippling them with either paralysis or Toxic, depending on their Pokémon. Most fast and/or frail Pokémon are best off paralyzed and then blown away with Whirlwind, so that another Pokémon can outrun them and effortlessly finish them off later on in the match (and coincidentally, Ho-Oh is an excellent Pokémon for that purpose). For example, a paralyzed Mewtwo can be easily outrun and destroyed by a Ho-Oh's Life Orb Sun-boosted Sacred Fire, while a paralyzed Rayquaza can be outrun and crushed by just about any dragon. However, Extreme Killer Arceus is much better off poisoned, as not only does its main and strongest attack bypass the Speed drop from paralysis, but it is also so bulky that almost no attacks exist which can take it out in one hit anyway. A poisoned Extreme Killer Arceus is also easily stalled by Multiscale Lugia until it succumbs to the poison. And Pokémon like Groudon and Garchomp, that are immune to Thunder Wave, should also obviously be Toxic stalled.

Another thing I would like to mention is that Lugia is a Pokémon upon which very little, if any Speed EVs are often invested, because people prefer to enhance its bulk instead. But with Multiscale Lugia, the priorities have shifted. Now, Speed is very important in order to allow Lugia to regain its Multiscale with Roost before the opponent's Pokémon attacks it, and in very desperate situations, also to allow Lugia to outrun and paralyze certain threats before it faints. Lugia's bulk, on the other hand, has suddenly become less important, as a Multiscale Lugia at full health will always be bulkier than any Pressure Lugia anyway, regardless of how much it invests into Defense or Special Defense. I personally think that the ideal amount of Speed to invest into Lugia is 204, as that allows it to outrun Jolly Groudon, so that it can Roost before it uses Stone Edge, and this is especially important because Groudon is immune to Thunder Wave (if Groudon uses Rock Polish, just Whirlwind it away). And because Lugia is meant to be a mixed wall, I think the ideal set for Multiscale Lugia is this:



Surya (Lugia) @ Leftovers
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 HP / 52 Def / 204 Spd
Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
- Roost
- Thunder Wave
- Toxic
- Whirlwind

Now, onto Regenerator Ho-Oh. Because its use is almost completely exclusive to a single weather, it is nowhere near as metagame-defining as Multiscale Lugia. Because while Lugia is a wall that completely counters the vast majority of Pokémon, which also works in any weather (although personally, I think Sun is also the most favorable weather for Lugia, largely due to Thunder only having 50% accuracy), Ho-Oh is nothing more than just an insanely good Pokémon within one specific weather. However, it is still nonetheless one of the best Pokémon in the game after Arceus, Kyogre, Groudon and Lugia. Here, I should just copy and paste from an RMT I once wrote, describing my Ho-Oh set in that team, in order to demonstrate just how ridiculously effective Regenerator Ho-Oh can be. Keep in mind that it can do everything I am about to describe using only one moveset. And this is hardly the only moveset Ho-Oh can run, as it very commonly uses the Substitute set (which can manage an entirely different set of feats), and can also use defensive sets with moves like Thunder Wave, Whirlwind, and things like that.



Think about it: Ho-Oh is immune to Will-O-Wisp and takes less than 33% from Giratina's Dragon Tail. Now it can completely and utterly stonewall the most common Giratina set. When Ho-Oh hits a Kyogre on the switch with a Life Orb-boosted Brave Bird, it typically loses a large chunk of its own health from the recoil. After that, you can now just switch to Palkia/Gastrodon/Arceus-Grass and that recoil damage is almost completely negated. With a combination of Life Orb and Brave Bird, Ho-Oh, especially Flame Charge variants, often reduces itself to dangerously low health, to the point where it would easily faint from a Giratina-O's Shadow Sneak, or even just another round of Life Orb damage. If the opponent has out a Pokémon against which Ho-Oh cannot just safely Recover/Roost, then what? Normally, Ho-Oh would just accept its demise by firing off one last Sacred Fire or Brave Bird before going down, as it usually isn't worth switching out and keeping a relatively slow Pokémon with low health around. But with Regenerator? Just switch out. Next time Ho-Oh comes in, it's in better shape and may be able to safely Recover/Roost. If it can't, just switch out again, and now Ho-Oh has just went from being on the verge of fainting to having about 70% health now.

Also, anyone who is intending to use Regenerator as a means of somewhat negating the damage that Ho-Oh takes from Stealth Rock (so that it loses 17% health as opposed to 50% every time it comes in and leaves) is doing it wrong. Instead of doing that, why not just put an Espeon/Xatu on the team, so that instead of losing 17% health every time Ho-Oh comes in and leaves, it regains 33% health? To those who may be thinking that it is detrimental to "waste" a spot on one's team with a Magic Bounce Pokémon, rest assured that it is not. In fact, I'd say that in general, as long as one is not running an insanely hyper-offensive team of course, an Übers team containing five Pokémon + an Espeon/Xatu is more effective than a team containing six powerful Pokémon, and there are many reasons why that is the case.

1. Magic Bounce Pokémon completely wall Lugia. This is exponentially more important than before now that Multiscale Lugia is released. I'm sure many people here have experienced having their team destroyed by one of those Toxic-stalling Substitute Lugia, and I'm sure that in that situation, many of such people would probably at some point have wished that their team contained an Espeon or a Xatu.
2. The inclusion of an Espeon or a Xatu in one's team allows one to completely counter the vast majority of offensive threats with Multiscale Lugia, as I have explained before.
3. Ho-Oh is not the only Pokémon that dislikes being damaged by Stealth Rock. The aforementioned Multiscale Lugia, Reshiram, the two new Kyurem Formes, and Rayquaza all despise it. Actually, technically, every single Pokémon barring those with Magic Guard do. Regardless of how resilient to Steath Rock and other entry hazards one's team may be, being able to keep one's own field hazard-free is a massive advantage for any team, and certainly worthy of dedicating one team spot for an Espeon/Xatu.
4. Toxic Spikes put a limit on the life of one's Kyogre or Groudon, putting one at an immediate disadvantage in the weather war, the victory of which is extremely important to many teams.
5. Toxic Spikes render most Calm Mind Arceus almost completely unusable unless they have Refresh.
6. Ferrothorn Spikes stacking is one of the deadliest strategies in Übers due to this Pokémon's great bulk and myriad of resistances, which gives it ample time to eventually stack three layers of Spikes, at which point it becomes exceedingly difficult for the opponent to win especially if the Ferrothorn trainer has a bulky pseudo-hazer like Giratina or Lugia (it wasn't my intention to mention this Pokémon again...), as add in Stealth Rock, and most Pokémon are taking 30+% damage just by switching in. This is especially devastating against rain teams as they often struggle to defeat Ferrothorn quickly, but all of this can be easily solved by just sacrificing one team spot for Magic Bounce support.
7. Espeon with Yawn and Xatu with Haze are both perfect counters to Smeargle's Shell Smash + Baton Pass strategy.
8. Having a Pokémon completely immune to status effects in one's team is a huge asset.
9. Magic Bounce stops the Copycat Riolu strategy.

In summary:

  • Lugia just went from whatever it was before to the best Pokémon in the game after those that control the metagame itself (Arceus and the two dominant weather summoners). Slap one on any team that has an Espeon or Xatu and most of the threats in the metagame become completely non-threats.
  • Ho-Oh went from whatever it was before, to one of the best Pokémon in the game after Lugia. I'd say its competitors for that are Dialga, Palkia, Mewtwo and Darkrai, which actually says a lot about Ho-Oh's usefulness considering those other Pokémon are largely indifferent to the weather, whereas Ho-Oh's usefulness is almost completely exclusive to Sun teams, meaning Ho-Oh is actually unviable for more than half of the teams in the metagame. In other words, it is such a powerful Pokémon in the Sun, that I'd say there is very little reason not to use it in any team that contains Groudon (unless it also has Kyogre).
This post disregards the fact that a faster pokemon with Toxic or a Sleep move pretty much neuters Lugia. I'd hardly call it the best or most metagame-defining (an annoying phrase which has nothing to do with how good a mon actually is) pokemon in ubers.

Don't get me started on Magic Bounce. Its very all or nothing, and if your opponent is attempting to SR/status you with an offensive mon that can keep pressure on Espeon (lol xatu in ubers) such as Groudon they WILL get those rocks up/status out. Those pokemon have no defensive presence and almost anything that possesses a move that they would serve to reflect back can threaten them with a KO. Sure they might wind up with rocks on THEIR side of the field if you switch smartly, but the minute that Groudon starts tossing attacks at Espeon you're gonna either switch or die and then what?

That last bit about Ho-oh being a completely "unviable pokemon in half the teams of the metagame" is like saying its only viable move is Sacred Fire and all of its counters are Water types (when it in fact wipes the floor with most of them with Brave Bird).
 

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using magic bounce is difficult, but if you maintain offensive pressure and have the right pokemon (things that can wreck hazard setters) then smart play can guarantee no hazards on your field.

switching in a magic bounce pokemon into a hazard setter guarantees a single condition, and that is no entry hazards on your side of the field - this is only worth it if you can either survive comfortably, or the hazard setter won't have an opportunity to come back in later. to guarantee the latter condition either the rest of the team can threaten it or it will be too crippled by residual / hazard damage to come in again. so whilst it's not unfeasible i will admit that it isn't easy or conventional.

i haven't used lugia that much but i've been using regenerator ho-oh. ho-oh as a pokemon becomes a lot more flexible, you can switch it into half the attacks thrown around in ubers, even specs draco meteors and then just switch out if a 2hko looks like it's going to happen. without SR on your side ho-oh actually becomes an effective pivot, you switch it in to scout sets / attacks and then you can switch it out immediately. not to mention that ho-oh destroys giratina-a now, as you can switch in indefinitely and just PP stall it.

i've had great success with subroost and flame charge, both take advantage of idiots switching around endlessly trying to get a good resist in. just use this with like mold breaker exca, or volt switch forry. even with SR down this thing is still good as long as you remember to keep it in the 50% ish range when you're switching out.
 
This post disregards the fact that a faster pokemon with Toxic or a Sleep move pretty much neuters Lugia. I'd hardly call it the best or most metagame-defining (an annoying phrase which has nothing to do with how good a mon actually is) pokemon in ubers.

Don't get me started on Magic Bounce. Its very all or nothing, and if your opponent is attempting to SR/status you with an offensive mon that can keep pressure on Espeon (lol xatu in ubers) such as Groudon they WILL get those rocks up/status out. Those pokemon have no defensive presence and almost anything that possesses a move that they would serve to reflect back can threaten them with a KO. Sure they might wind up with rocks on THEIR side of the field if you switch smartly, but the minute that Groudon starts tossing attacks at Espeon you're gonna either switch or die and then what?

That last bit about Ho-oh being a completely "unviable pokemon in half the teams of the metagame" is like saying its only viable move is Sacred Fire and all of its counters are Water types (when it in fact wipes the floor with most of them with Brave Bird).
No one said that Espeon/Xatu could reflect entry hazards and status-inducing moves indefinitely throughout the match, unless the opponent is using such moves on a defensive Pokémon like Forretress, Chansey or Deoxys-D, as Espeon/Xatu can indeed wall them for a long time with Morning Sun or Roost (physically defensive Xatu can even wall Ferrothorn and defensive Groudon). But the point is, Espeon/Xatu can prevent the opponent's Pokémon from setting up a layer of entry hazards at the first opportunity they attempt to use to do so, and by placing a sufficient amount of pressure on the opponent, it isn't difficult to not give the opponent the chance to use Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes a second time in the match, as by that point it's likely that the opponent's entry hazard user is sufficiently weakened to the point where they can be easily finished off before they can use them. For example, if the opponent's Stealth Rock user is Dialga, Espeon/Xatu can be used to reflect Stealth Rock the first time they attempt such a move. Then the battle goes on. With some intelligent prediction, you could later weaken their Dialga on the switch with a Palkia's Spacial Rend, for example. Then you can switch to Espeon to reflect Stealth Rock a second time, or if they predict correctly, you sacrifice your Espeon to Dialga's Draco Meteor. At this point, since the opponent's Dialga had been weakened by Palkia's Spacial Rend before, it is now within range to be KO'd by many attacks, such as Mewtwo's Aura Sphere or Ho-Oh's Sun-boosted Sacred Fire.

Basically, Espeon/Xatu's lack of defensive presence and inability to take hits very well doesn't matter, as the point is not to wall the opponent's entry hazard user indefinitely. It's to simply stop the opponent's entry hazard user from setting up entry hazards until that Pokémon is weakened enough to be easily finished off before it gets the chance to use Stealth Rock/Spikes/Toxic Spikes again. After that, Espeon/Xatu can usually be used as death fodder (unless there is another Pokémon they need to wall, like the opponent's Toxic Multiscale Lugia).

And I don't see the connection between saying Ho-Oh being unviable outside of Sun teams, and saying that its only move is Sacred Fire. OK, maybe it could be useful in sand or hail teams at times, but those two weathers make up the minority of the tier, since Übers is dominated by the rain and the Sun. And in a rain team (and such teams make up about half of the tier), I honestly see very little reason to use Ho-Oh (especially when Multiscale Lugia is generally far superior if you're looking for a wall), as not only is it weak to both Water-type moves and the 100% accurate Thunders that can be easily tossed around in that weather, but pretty much its only usable attack in that weather is a recoil move, and Sacred Fire, its best and strongest move in the Sun (not just because it's stronger than Brave Bird and has a 50% burn chance, but just because of the absence of that debilitating recoil. There is a reason why in the Sun, I prefer to have my Ho-Oh beat Latios one-on-one with Flame Charge + Sacred Fire rather than just outright KO'ing the Eon Pokémon with Brave Bird. Because especially with Life Orb, the recoil is just that bad, and could even result in Ho-Oh fainting if Latios hits Ho-Oh with a powerful move like Psyshock or Draco Meteor), becomes essentially nothing more than a less accurate Will-O-Wisp that can do a little damage. That is what I mean when I say that Ho-Oh is generally unviable outside of Sun teams. The same as how Kingdra and Kabutops are generally unviable outside of rain teams, and how Sand Rush Excadrill is generally unviable outside of sand teams.

Also, as I said in my previous post, the best and most metagame-defining Pokémon is Arceus, followed by Kyogre and Groudon. Lugia is nowhere near the level of those three, but I'd say it's certainly better than every other Pokémon in the game besides them, as with Multiscale and Thunder Wave, it outright counters so many Pokémon that it's often hard to find a reason not to put one in a team, unless it's a completely hyper offensive team.
 
I dont even understand what Sphyxius means by saying that Ho-Oh's only move is Sacred Fire. If you use the Honko Calculator, you will notice that most enemies in ubers are damaged more by Brave Bird than by Sacred Fire. The reason for this is that there are plenty of fire resists but not many Flying resists. Ho-Oh is viable is sandstorm too. Why would you use Ho-Oh in a weatherless team anyway? If you do, then you are doing it wrong.
Lugia is neutered by a faster pokemon with sleep or toxic? How many common toxic users are fast? Darkrai uses Dark Void but Lugia is not meant to handle Darkrai anyway - that is Ho-Oh's job. BTW did you know Lugia's bulk allows it to use a substitute set? The idea is to set up a substitue againt a pokemon that cant do much to Lugia, whirlwind it out and toxic the next pokemon as it tries to break the substitute. BTW with Stealth Rock, Ho-Oh 2HKOs all pokemon in ubers with a moveset of Sacred Fire, Brave Bird and Earthquake - this is of course if Sacred Fire burns the first time.
EDIT: Ninja'd like a boss.
EDIT2: Giratina is beaten by the substitute+roost set. Giratina cannot do anything against Ho-Oh. Should have mentioned that the pokemon that look to counter it directly are 2HKOed. In most of my matches, Stealth Rock is not out early in the game as I lead with Deoxys-S.
 
BTW with Stealth Rock, Ho-Oh 2HKOs all pokemon in ubers with a moveset of Sacred Fire, Brave Bird and Earthquake - this is of course if Sacred Fire burns the first time.
Actually, Even with max attack and a Life Orb, Ho-oh fails to 2KO Giratina-A by a long shot. It only manages to deal 35.38 - 41.74% with Brave Bird, which has no chance to 2KO, even with Stealth Rock. Even if you were to use a Choice Band, Brave Bird still has only a 12.5% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, which is far from reliable. Ho-oh would also take 59 - 70 damage from recoil each attack (not including life orb damage), and would be easily forced out by Dragon tail, which could be a problem if Stealth Rock is up.
Overall, Ho-oh would take 59 - 70 damage from Brave Bird recoil, 35 from Life Orb and 72 - 85 from Dragon Tail (This is assuming it's running a 252 Atk / 252 Spd set). If it switched into stealth rock, it would have already taken 176 damage. This would leave it at maximum of 11 health and a minimum of -13, which is a 46% chance of KO. Even if Ho-oh survives, it would gain back only 117 health from Regenerator, and unless you manage to spin away Stealth Rock, Ho-oh will faint the next time it switches in. If it is running a max HP set, it will never be KOd by Dragon tail after recoil, but would instead still always faint upon switching in on Stealth Rock.
Thus, not only does Ho-oh not manage to 2KO Giratina-A, it it effectively OHKOd by it if Stealth Rock is up.

Edit:
Anikrahman1995 said:
Giratina is beaten by the substitute+roost set. Giratina cannot do anything against Ho-Oh. Should have mentioned that the pokemon that look to counter it directly are 2HKOed. In most of my matches, Stealth Rock is not out early in the game as I lead with Deoxys-S.
Though Ho-oh can beat Giratina-A with Substitute + Roost, it would not be able to also run Brave Bird, Sacred Fire and Earthquake. This would be a completely different Ho-Oh from the one that you claimed could 2KO the entire Tier, and would have different counters such as Arceus-Rock if you don't run Earthquake.
 
For lugia, Why not run a parashuffle set like dnite?

-roost
-sub
-twave
-dtail

Para, sub til parahax, roost, phase, repeat


Unless lugia doesn't get twave

which would be dumb
 
Thunder Wave is part of Lugia's moveset, and I can see the merits of this moveset, though it makes Groudon (through his paralysis immunity, i guess Ground Arceus as well then) a bigger threat than sets with toxic would. Additionally, the problem with Dragon Tail is that I see an increasing amount of players using substitutes, which lets them set up on you.

That being said, I do certainly like the idea of this set, might give it the old college try.

While we are on the subject of T-Wave, I just learned in EMT school that the final sketch of a heartbeat on an EKG is called the T-Wave. Definitely a coincidence, but real cool.
 
I've actually been trying a ParaShuffler Lugia set with the spread PTR uses on his own Lugia. (I actually just took the set and ended up dropping Toxic for Substitute) It works a lot better with Whirlwind because Dragon Tail doesn't have the STAB and ridiculous attack (respective to the metagame of each) that Dragonite has. Of course, like ShuffleNite, you MUST have hazards otherwise you will just keep on meeting the same Groudon or already Paralyzed Pokemon. I like it, though, and my current Ubers team is based around it. (So far it's been successful, but that's the Ubers ladder...)
 
Say, is it any good to try using a Timid Lugia for a wall? My friend managed to get is hands on a Timid flawless Multiscale Lugia, and I'm considering whether or not I should make a trade proposition.
 

Go10

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You can use it with a fast spread like in DPP, Timid is a good nature on Lugia even in BW, don't worry. Use it with enough in speed to outspeed Garchomp and Palkia, a little more maybe (speed creep etc).
 
I'm going to need somebody to explain to me how MultiScale Lugia is good.

With Stealth Rock so prevalent, Lugia always will have to Roost first turn in order to even get the boost. Plus any attack, Sand, whatever will break it.

I may not understand this fully. All I know though is that I'm going to stick with Pressure, because PP-Stalling is how I always play this guy.

Regenerator Ho-Oh is awesome though! Would have preferred Magic Guard though :p
 

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With Stealth Rock so prevalent, Lugia always will have to Roost first turn in order to even get the boost.
You should be running support for getting rid of Stealth Rocks anyway if you're running Lugia, no?

Plus any attack, Sand, whatever will break it.
Leftovers will stop Sand damage, and taking attacks is what the ability is meant to do anyway!
 
I dont even understand what Sphyxius means by saying that Ho-Oh's only move is Sacred Fire. If you use the Honko Calculator, you will notice that most enemies in ubers are damaged more by Brave Bird than by Sacred Fire. The reason for this is that there are plenty of fire resists but not many Flying resists. Ho-Oh is viable is sandstorm too. Why would you use Ho-Oh in a weatherless team anyway? If you do, then you are doing it wrong.
Lugia is neutered by a faster pokemon with sleep or toxic? How many common toxic users are fast? Darkrai uses Dark Void but Lugia is not meant to handle Darkrai anyway - that is Ho-Oh's job. BTW did you know Lugia's bulk allows it to use a substitute set? The idea is to set up a substitue againt a pokemon that cant do much to Lugia, whirlwind it out and toxic the next pokemon as it tries to break the substitute. BTW with Stealth Rock, Ho-Oh 2HKOs all pokemon in ubers with a moveset of Sacred Fire, Brave Bird and Earthquake - this is of course if Sacred Fire burns the first time.
You don't read well do you? I said "That's *like* saying Ho-oh's only usable move is Sacred Fire..." referring to Pokemon Trainer R's post. Also a pokemon with reliable recovery, 154 sp. def, regenerator, and 2 strong STABs one of which caries a 50% burn rate is usable on more teams than just Sun. Sacred Fire is used far more for its burn rate than its power, which is barely more than Flamethrower. Sure in sun it is way better, but I would still use it rain or shine for that awesome burn rate. In any case, its the only move Ho-oh uses that gets any kind of benefit from the sun. Sun is obviously ideal, no one is arguing that, but saying Ho-oh is useless outside of the sun is a big stretch. And yes, I know about Ho-oh's 2HKOing abilities, my entire post was an argument against his TL;DR hype of Lugia and marginalization of Ho-oh.
 
In my previous post, I already acknowledged that Ho-Oh could at times find a place in a Sandstorm or Hail team, but not only are such teams, especially the latter, already amongst the minority of Über teams as I already mentioned, but Ho-Oh is also, for very good reasons, far from a near-omnipresent Pokémon within teams of such weathers, unlike in Sun teams. But in the rain, what exactly is Ho-Oh? It is a Lugia with a different type combination (which is generally worse, due to the 4x Rock weakness and the Water weakness, which actually matters in the rain despite the 154 Special Defense, and this is very important, as because of this combined with the fact that Ho-Oh does not have Multiscale, it cannot take a hit from Kyogre or Palkia and paralyze it, or pseudo-haze Manaphy away, which are some extremely important things that Lugia can do), a move that has a 47.5% chance of inflicting a burn, the ability to attack with a powerful recoil move, and Regenerator, in exchange for Lugia's ability to outright counter almost the entire Übers metagame. Alright, I won't deny that there may exist some peculiar rain team which would appreciate the things that Ho-Oh brings to the table more than what Lugia can do, but I think it is quite safe and intuitive to say that in general, it is quite difficult, and probably near-impossible to find a rain team which would appreciate the use of a Ho-Oh over the use of a Lugia, because there is a myriad of Pokémon Lugia can counter that Ho-Oh cannot, including Mewtwo, Soul Dew Latios, Palkia in the rain, Manaphy in the rain (well, it can't paralyze it like it can against most other sweepers, but it can still Whirlwind it away nonetheless), Calm Mind Arceus-Rock, Water and Electric (yes, Lugia can counter Calm Mind Arceus-Rock and Electric, as well as Ice, Dark and Ghost, as with Multiscale it is capable of taking less than 50% damage from a +1 super effective Judgment while paralyzing Arceus, before Roosting to full health repeatedly until Arceus is fully paralyzed, and then Arceus can be Whirlwinded away. Or if Arceus uses Substitute to block Thunder Wave, Lugia can just Whirlwind it away anyway. Furthermore, Ho-Oh actually loses the ability to beat most Calm Mind Arceus one-on-one when it is in the rain due to the nerfed Sacred Fire as well as Brave Bird's unreliability due to its recoil, meaning it canot counter them in the rain unless it has Whirlwind), Groudon, and just physical attackers in general, while I cannot think of anything that Ho-Oh counters that Lugia doesn't besides Kyurem-W, Reshiram in the Sun (and we are talking about using Ho-Oh in a rain team anyway, so one could always just shut off the sunlight with Kyogre anyway) and Will-o-Wisp users like Giratina. If anything, rain teams would probably be considering the use of Ho-Oh over Lugia for its ability to defeat Ferrothorn and Arceus-Grass, two Pokémon that rain typically struggle against, quickly and easily, but I don't think it would be worth it the majority of the time. And finally, consider this last point: Imagine that you were building a rain team, and then somehow find that Ho-Oh would actually benefit such a team more than Lugia would. Now, in such a hypothetical situation, what reason have you not to just replace that Kyogre in the team with a Groudon, and put some Sun sweepers over whatever other rain sweepers that you have in the team, just so that the power of your Ho-Oh's Sacred Fire can be increased threefold, so that it can actually wall Water-type moves, and so that it changes from a generally much worse Lugia into one of the deadliest threats in the entire game? Now, don't get me wrong - my point is hardly that there is no reason not to do such (and I know there are many reasons to do so), but I hope that by considering this question, you may realize that in many cases, if one were to want to include a Ho-Oh in their team, then oftentimes one may as well just put a Groudon in it anyway, since there are many huge advantages in doing so, and this effectively turns the team into a Sun team. So it's not just a matter of Ho-Oh being mostly unviable in the rain - there is also the fact that generally, many rain teams which would appreciate the inclusion of a Ho-Oh may as well have Groudon over Kyogre and become a Sun team anyway.

So basically, while I concede that saying Ho-Oh is absolutely unviable in rain, Hail or Sandstorm teams is just a bold generalization (since there are always exceptions), the fact remains that generally, there is very little reason to use Ho-Oh in the rain (the most common weather in Übers), and Ho-Oh is not any more viable than any other random Über Pokémon such as Dialga and Palkia in Hail or Sandstorm teams. In fact, I'd say that they are generally far easier to fit into a non-Sun team due to the former's excellent defensive type combination and ability to use Stealth Rock, the latter's ability to serve as one of the most useful Kyogre counters (and also be a great rain abuser), and the fact that neither of them desperately require Magic Bounce support like Ho-Oh does. When people think of Ho-Oh being one of the best Pokémon in the game, what do they typically think of? They tend to think of the absolutely insane power of its Life Orb and Sun-boosted Sacred Fire, powerful enough to fell even the mighty Mewtwo in a single hit. They think of its ability to sweep entire teams after a single Flame Charge or devastate everything behind a Substitute, thanks to its ability to destroy almost every other Pokémon its tier using Brave Bird and Sacred Fire alone. And they think of its ability to wall a myriad of incredible special sweepers, including Dialga, Palkia, and most Calm Mind Arceus, and use them as complete setup fodder or just annihilate them one-on-one. What do all of these feats that make the Pokémon Ho-Oh as we know it have in common? The answer is that they can all be performed thanks to Groudon's Drought, which can only be observed in a little more than a quarter of all teams according to last month's usage statistics on this site. But in any other weather, Ho-Oh is just another Über, which may be used every now and then, but it's nothing extraordinary. But that is not the case with Lugia. In any team containing Kyogre, which is used in more than 40% of all teams, Lugia is a ridiculous cut above most other Über Pokémon due to reasons that I have already explained multiple times. If the team has Groudon, Lugia is even better. Despite its dislike of risidual damage, it is also an excellent wall in the less common teams with Tyranitar, Hippowdon or Abomasnow as well. And if it works well in Hail or in a Sandstorm, then obviously it works in weatherless teams as well. Every metagame is largely controlled by its dominant weather summoners, and Übers is no exception, meaning that a Pokémon that is absolutely amazing regardless of the weather would obviously be ranked higher than one that is absolutely amazing only in one weather (firing off Brave Birds left and right without the coverage provided by a Sun-boosted Sacred Fire is not that impressive, nor is taking 50+% damage from a Palkia's Surf).

And I can tell you that I am definitely neither overrating Lugia nor underrating Ho-Oh. I have reached #1 on eight different Übers ladders across four different Pokémon Online servers using a team containing both, and also extensively tested both of these Pokémon independently in a number of other teams as well. I know exactly how much Ho-Oh is defined by Drought, and I know exactly how much any team, regardless of its weather, would benefit from Lugia, since I have literally and actively resisted the urge to put Lugia in the vast majority of teams I have built, purely because of my desire to be creative and not use the same Pokémon in every one of my teams.
 
Great post Pokemon Trainer R, a lot fo effort has gone into it.
Im just gonna generalize a little here but essentially:
Ho-oh= unstoppable force
Lugia= Immovable object

This is know to most ubers players and although i generalize a lot it is quite true. Now to the point of the topic; what does Regenerator and Multiscale do for Ho-oh and Lugia respectively?

There is little more daunting to a player than a Ho-oh behind a sub right? well Regenerator essentially improves Ho-oh longevity and lets you pace its usage throughout the match. PLEASE DO NOT THINK OF AS SOMETHING TO REDUCE SR DAMAGE!!! That is one of the stupidest things i have heard! He is still equally weak to SR, like i mentioned before the main advantage with it improves its longevity, nothing more and nothing less. This is not necassarily a step-up from pressure as they both have unique niches however IMO Regenerator seems to make more sense. It basically lets you heal of BB and Sub damage if you can't pull off a roost/ recover (which should still be used!). It lets you heal off LO thus making an improved choice and it lets you use ho-oh like Tornadus-T in ou except MUCH tankier. One last thing PLEASE do not use Ho-oh in the rain! Ho-oh is viable in pretty much any weather except it so just don't okay!?

Now onto Lugia. Why are people so tentative to except that Multiscale is an awesome ability and Lugia, The Great Wall, is the best use i can think of. It lets you play up the Base 110 Speed without forgoing much bulk which can be handy for crippling an opponent, setting up a very speedy screen or simply just roosting up on a scale. Honestly SR will be a problem for both pressure and multiscale lugia. Lugia can be an incredibly infuriating pokemon to deal with once it is in safely and with multiscale it got an awesome buff! On a side note Lugia has no business staying in on BK or WK (mainly WK) and if you are relying on it to check them then your team needs a serious rethink.
Anyway i hope i could contribute.
 

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