Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[erisia]

By the way, I'm interested in what people think about Togekiss in OU. Does it have any value in the metagame? Is it capable of holding it's own? Does it have anything over Jirachi?

I think C-Rank sounds good for it, since I've used it in the past to good extent, although it did have a few flaws, like Stealth Rocks... What does everyone else think?

As I said before, Togekiss is quite outclassed by Jirachi as a general annoyer, but now that Tornadus-T is gone it's probably gotten a little better than before, as SpD Jirachi is less needed within the current metagame, and opponents will probably prepare less against Flying-type attacks than before. Togekiss is pretty cool as a double-act with Jirachi, and can take on things like Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Gengar that the latter can normally have a little trouble breaking through. Nasty Plot can be pretty good, especially with paralysis support, as it can 2-3HKO a ton of stuff with Air Slash after a boost, and Serene Grace + Paralysis support makes securing these KOs pretty likely. Nasty Plot / Air Slash / Heal Bell or Aura Sphere / Roost is the set I usually use, with Jirachi and Ferrothorn / Dragonite providing the para support.

I think C-Rank is a pretty good place for it, as established in my earlier post.

 

[Sam]

Gengar has become a bit more viable as of late with the Focus Sash set on DeoGar teams, where it serves primarily as a spin blocker rather than an offensive pivot. It can usually get past most spinners. It can OHKO offensive Starmie with Shadow Ball, beats Forry and Donphan 1 on 1, and can usually get past Tentacruel with Destiny Bond. It has a new niche and a new set to support it, and is probably better than when it was last discussed. It's offensive sets are still pretty good as well. It does it's job pretty well and no other 'mon really fits its role at all, I'd say calling it A-rank isn't really a stretch.

 

[typon77]

Gengar has become a bit more viable as of late with the Focus Sash set on DeoGar teams, where it serves primarily as a spin blocker rather than an offensive pivot. It can usually get past most spinners. It can OHKO offensive Starmie with Shadow Ball, beats Forry and Donphan 1 on 1, and can usually get past Tentacruel with Destiny Bond. It has a new niche and a new set to support it, and is probably better than when it was last discussed. It's offensive sets are still pretty good as well. It does it's job pretty well and no other 'mon really fits its role at all, I'd say calling it A-rank isn't really a stretch.

B Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who cannot sweep through or wall significant portions of the metagame, but can properly fulfill a given offensive/defensive niche. Support Pokemon in this category have flaws that prevent them from doing their job or are setup bait for dangerous sweepers. Pokemon who are partially outclassed by a Pokemon in A or S Rank, but are otherwise very dangerous, may also fall into this category.

You just perfectly justified why Gengar should stay in B Rank. Gengar can properly fill its niche as an offensive spin blocker, but it often finds itself overwhelmed and cant truly sweep and definitely can't wall much of anything (Except SubDisable, which can be predicted around). If we're classifying Gengar as more of a support pokemon, as its niche is more of a supportive role, then its frailty and subpar power when using Leftovers do prevent it from doing its job well. Sounds B Rank to me.

 

[alexwolf]

I support Moltres, Heracross, and Golurk for rank D. Moltres has a niche on rain teams on a double-Hurricane combo with Tornadus. Heacross is a viable Scarfer but outclassed in most cases, Choice Band Heracross is viable too, but once again a bit outclassed, and SD Heacross is the single best wallbreaker in OU (by best i mean the one that can deal the most damage, not the best to use). Finally Golurk walls Terrakion, checks Jirachi, and is quite strong with good coverage, as well as SR, so it has a niche too.

I may argue for Gengar in A rank later if i feel like it...

 

[BettaOffDead]

Nah I don't think Gengar has any business being in A. It's fine where it is. It's defenses suck too much.

There are just so many ways to revenge kill gengar with its pathetic defenses. It's speed is solid but that that solid so it can easily be revenged by scarfers and faster Pokemon or even something that can take a hit from it. A rank means it would be able to sweep most of the metagame but it can't.

 

[Shurtugal]

Landorus-I needs A, not S. Landorus lacks the strength to really break through teams, even with the aid of hazards. FB is an unreliable coverage move and HP [Ice] is laughably weak to were most things being hit by it are great checks to Landorus.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I'd like to petition Hydreigon to be moved from B Rank to A Rank. Ever since Genesect came to OU, Hydreigon was given the cold shoulder in team building since Genesect could pretty much OHKO Hydreigon with two of it coverage moves, one being STAB, and what's worse is that it was on 50% of teams, which meant Hydreigon needed a lot of team support in order to get it to fulfill it's niche on a team. Although Hydreigon is still plagued with a terrible defensive typing in Dark, leaving it weak to Fighting type priority and U-Turn, Genesect is now Uber, which means Hydreigon has the ability to shine again.

What many don't seem to realize is that similar to Kyurem-B, NOTHING can really safely switch into it's moves. Hydreigon has one of the best mixed capabilities of all Dragons in the tier, and a great special/physical move pool to take advantage of it. As some of you may know, I have recently built a really successful team with a friend of mine that was centered around Hydreigon, and after countless amounts of tests and pitting my own teams against this team, I have learned that Mixed Hydreigon is one of the most terrifying things to face in OU. There's really no way to prepare for it, you just have to pray that the opponent doesn't get a free switch into you with Hydreigon. The Mixed LO set consisting of Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Superpower / Roost or Earthquake or Dark Pulse can hit pretty much the entire OU tier for super effective damage or extremely hard. The goal of this set is to lure in obvious counters and checks such as Blissey, Heatran, and Mamoswine, and being able to OHKO back with the right coverage move. Both the pink blobs and Max HP Heatran are comfortably 2HKOed by Superpower (Chansey is possibly 3, but fuck Chansey), while Standard LO Mamoswine is OHKOed after rocks (and yes he can tank an Ice Shard even after SR). Hydreigon can still use Draco Meteor on the predicted Forretress, Scizor, and Ferrothorn switch and still OHKO them all with a -2 Fire Blast while having a decent chance of OHKOing the latter after Stealth Rocks. That's quite amazing, which shows that not even Steel types can safely switch into Hydreigon. The only hard counter that I've seen who can switch into any of it's moves, is SpD Jellicent, because it's immune to Superpower, is 3HKOed by Draco, and resists Fire Blast. Other than that though Hydreigon is extremely hard to switch into. If the opponent gets a free switch with the Hydreigon, your most likely going to have to sack something. It's quite easy to get free switch momentum with Hydreigon anyway since he forces so many switches.

All in all, Hydreigon may not be the fastest and best Dragon defensively, but offensively he is one of the most dangerous dragons in OU, and easily defines the word "uncounterable". Unlike most Dragons, he needs little team support to be effective, and can easily threaten anything even at the very start of the battle. With the vast amount of sets Hydreigon can run, he's quite easy to fit on a team, since he can be a great Scarfer, Specs user, and even a great Sub Rooster like Kyurem. However, nothing compares to his mixed sets, which scares the shit out of any team that crosses it. Since his move pool is huge, he can easily adjust to your team's weaknesses. If your team has a huge problem against bulky Psychic and Ghost types, then Dark Pulse is a great STAB to threaten Reuniclus and Jellicent. If your team hates Sub CM Rain Rachi, then EQ can prevent it from setting up on you and is a better move to nab the OHKO on Max HP Heatran. If your team doesn't really seem to have any specific problems, then Roost can be used to improve it's longevity and to compensate for the LO recoil. If put in the hands of the right player, Hydreigon is easily:

"A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Also, he looks like a badass. That alone should give him an A-Rank :D.

Hydreigon is in fact, uncounterable. Although Specially defensive Jellicent can wall Hydreigon that don't carry Dark Pulse, he will fall to those that do. The only other thing that can come close to wall Hydreigon is Specially defensive Jirachi if rain is up. Rain will protect Jirachi from being 2HKOed by Fire Blast, letting him use Wish before Hydreigon KOes with the third Fire Blast. Jirachi can then parahax Hydreigon to the death. However, even Jirachi is not a true counter because Hydreigon carrying Earthquake will beat him even on rain. Apart from these two, the only other thing that can be considered a counter to Hydreigon, is Chansey; though a bit of prior damage will leave even her prone to being defeated, and as Chansey lacks Leftovers, it isn't actually hard to leave her on the range of being 2HKOed by Superpower.

Dark Pulse is actually an excellent move to Hydreigon and it has been my main choice on a hyper-offensive team that I've created. STAB Dark Pulse has the same power as a un-STABed Fire Blast, though Dark Pulse is not nerfed by rain and has perfect accuracy. It is extremely useful not only because of Ghost- and Psychic-types, but because it can hit bulky Water-types without having to resort to Draco Meteor, and still has great coverage alongside the other three moves.

The reason why I am not sure if Hydreigon is worthy of A-Rank is because of this paradox; although Hydreigon is one of the hardest Pokémon to counter, it is actually one of the easiest to check. Most Fighting-types and Dragon-types can outspeed and OHKO Hydreigon, and it will also fall to Pokémon that carry Fighting- or Ice-type coverage. It is weak to 2 common priority moves and do not resist Bullet Punch (Hydreigon only resist the uncommon Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch). In addition to being weak to U-Turn. There are times when the opponent apply so much offensive pressure that you hardly, if ever, has a chance to bring Hydreigon on battle to kill something.

 

[False Sense]

Hydreigon is in fact, uncounterable. Although Specially defensive Jellicent can wall Hydreigon that don't carry Dark Pulse, he will fall to those that do. The only other thing that can come close to wall Hydreigon is Specially defensive Jirachi if rain is up. Rain will protect Jirachi from being 2HKOed by Fire Blast, letting him use Wish before Hydreigon KOes with the third Fire Blast. Jirachi can then parahax Hydreigon to the death. However, even Jirachi is not a true counter because Hydreigon carrying Earthquake will beat him even on rain. Apart from these two, the only other thing that can be considered a counter to Hydreigon, is Chansey; though a bit of prior damage will leave even her prone to being defeated, and as Chansey lacks Leftovers, it isn't actually hard to leave her on the range of being 2HKOed by Superpower.

Dark Pulse is actually an excellent move to Hydreigon and it has been my main choice on a hyper-offensive team that I've created. STAB Dark Pulse has the same power as a un-STABed Fire Blast, though Dark Pulse is not nerfed by rain and has perfect accuracy. It is extremely useful not only because of Ghost- and Psychic-types, but because it can hit bulky Water-types without having to resort to Draco Meteor, and still has great coverage alongside the other three moves.

The reason why I am not sure if Hydreigon is worthy of A-Rank is because of this paradox; although Hydreigon is one of the hardest Pokémon to counter, it is actually one of the easiest to check. Most Fighting-types and Dragon-types can outspeed and OHKO Hydreigon, and it will also fall to Pokémon that carry Fighting- or Ice-type coverage. It is weak to 2 common priority moves and do not resist Bullet Punch (Hydreigon only resist the uncommon Aqua Jet and Sucker Punch). In addition to being weak to U-Turn. There are times when the opponent apply so much offensive pressure that you hardly, if ever, has a chance to bring Hydreigon on battle to kill something.

In response to that, I'd like to note that a similar pokemon to Hydreigon, Kyurem-B, is A-Rank while being weak to Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. It's also slower than Hydreigon, making it easier to check. It's also weak to Stealth Rocks. It's also worth mentioning that Hydreigon has surprisingly good bulk, letting it take weaker priority moves like Ice Shard and retaliate.

So out of curiosity, why exactly is Kyurem-B in A-Rank, when it suffers from some of the same flaws that Hydreigon has, and then some, while Hydreigon is in B-Rank?

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

Oddly enough, another "counter" to Hydreigon is Specially defensive Celebi, if rain is up. Celebi avoids the 2HKO from Draco Meteor, recover on Hydreigon's face, and Fire Blast will do laughable damage thanks to rain. However, like Jellicent, Celebi will fall to Dark Pulse. Also, unlike Jirachi, another Pokémon that can be considered a "counter" if rain is up, Celebi cannot do much to Hydreigon, unless it carry Hidden Power Ice or Thunder Wave, but the former can only 3HKO and the latter only manages to cripple Hydreigon, not defeat him.

Also, now that you mentioned it, Kyurem-B lacks physical coverage moves to hurt Steel-types (Fusion Bolt covers most Steel-types neutrally, but isn't sufficient to do a lot of damage to most them. This doesn't happen with Hydreigon, so Hydreigon could be considered A-Rank? (or Kyurem-B, B-Rank)?

 

[False Sense]

I'm glad you saw my point. Hydreigon and Kyurem-B both share similar flaws, and some unique to one or the other. Their both hit hard by common priority, are slow and relatively easy to check. Hydreigon is weak to U-turn, while Kyurem-B is weak to Stealth Rocks.

Now about positives, both Hydreigon and Kyurem-B are very hard to switch into. Kyurem-B has that MASSIVE attack stat that lets it invest entirely in special and hit hard on both sides, but it lacks proper coverage, giving it a few counters. Hydreigon has less powerful stats, but it literally has no safe switch ins. They both have pretty good bulk too, with Kyurem-B having a little more overall bulk thanks to that large HP.

The way I see it, Hydreigon and Kyurem-B have a roughly equal amount of pros and cons. Ironically, I hear a lot of people praising Kyurem-B, while Hydreigon seems to be looked down upon. I would agree that they SHOULD be in the same rank, and since Kyurem-B is a pretty solid A-Rank, I think it seems fair that Hydreigon be A-Rank as well.

 

[alexwolf]

DFA neither SpD Jellicent nor SpD Celebi in rain are counters to Dark Pulse-less Hydreigon and here is why:

- Draco Meteor vs SpD Jellicent: 56.18 - 66.58%
...while at -2: 27.97 - 33.16%, which is a 2HKO 39.45% of the time after SR. And the chance gets even bigger if Hydreigon runs Earthquake, which does 30.94 - 36.38%

- Draco Meteor vs SpD Celebi: 57.17 - 67.82%
...while at -2: 28.96 - 34.15%, which is a 2HKO 61.33% of the time after SR

They are strong checks but not counters.

 

[Lavos]

hydreigon's fatal flaw that prevents it from being a-rank is the fact that it's incredibly difficult to switch in. due to its mediocre typing, a lot of ou pokemon present considerable threats to it, and despite its extremely diverse movepool, it often fails to ohko a lot of things, meaning they now have a chance to attack back (again, hydreigon's typing and just decent bulk mean it can get ohkod easily by a bunch of big threats including keldeo, terrakion, tyranitar, breloom, etc). another thing that's holding it back is the prevalence of jirachi under rain. as we saw in the 1337 usage stats, jirachi is #3 in usage, and it's coupled with rain more than two thirds of the time. that means for about 17% of teams, hydreigon literally does nothing, which is hard to swallow when you're looking for consistent threats to utilize in teambuilding. for these reasons, hydreigon sees little usage, and is a solid b rank pokemon.

 

[False Sense]

Saying Hydreigon does "literally nothing" against Rain team with Jirachi is a bit harsh, don't you think? Earthquake still hurts Jirachi pretty bad, and it's not like Jirachi's mere presence makes Hydreigon useless. It can do pretty huge damage to a lot of common rain threats, even bulkier ones like Politoed and Ferrothorn. Fire Blast still hurts things 4x weak to it even in Rain, something that shouldn't be overlooked. I fail to see how Hydreigon is so useless against Rain teams.

 

[RabidChipmunk]

I'd like to petition Hydreigon to be moved from B Rank to A Rank. Ever since Genesect came to OU, Hydreigon was given the cold shoulder in team building since Genesect could pretty much OHKO Hydreigon with two of it coverage moves, one being STAB, and what's worse is that it was on 50% of teams, which meant Hydreigon needed a lot of team support in order to get it to fulfill it's niche on a team. Although Hydreigon is still plagued with a terrible defensive typing in Dark, leaving it weak to Fighting type priority and U-Turn, Genesect is now Uber, which means Hydreigon has the ability to shine again.

What many don't seem to realize is that similar to Kyurem-B, NOTHING can really safely switch into it's moves. Hydreigon has one of the best mixed capabilities of all Dragons in the tier, and a great special/physical move pool to take advantage of it. As some of you may know, I have recently built a really successful team with a friend of mine that was centered around Hydreigon, and after countless amounts of tests and pitting my own teams against this team, I have learned that Mixed Hydreigon is one of the most terrifying things to face in OU. There's really no way to prepare for it, you just have to pray that the opponent doesn't get a free switch into you with Hydreigon. The Mixed LO set consisting of Draco Meteor / Fire Blast / Superpower / Roost or Earthquake or Dark Pulse can hit pretty much the entire OU tier for super effective damage or extremely hard. The goal of this set is to lure in obvious counters and checks such as Blissey, Heatran, and Mamoswine, and being able to OHKO back with the right coverage move. Both the pink blobs and Max HP Heatran are comfortably 2HKOed by Superpower (Chansey is possibly 3, but fuck Chansey), while Standard LO Mamoswine is OHKOed after rocks (and yes he can tank an Ice Shard even after SR). Hydreigon can still use Draco Meteor on the predicted Forretress, Scizor, and Ferrothorn switch and still OHKO them all with a -2 Fire Blast while having a decent chance of OHKOing the latter after Stealth Rocks. That's quite amazing, which shows that not even Steel types can safely switch into Hydreigon. The only hard counter that I've seen who can switch into any of it's moves, is SpD Jellicent, because it's immune to Superpower, is 3HKOed by Draco, and resists Fire Blast. Other than that though Hydreigon is extremely hard to switch into. If the opponent gets a free switch with the Hydreigon, your most likely going to have to sack something. It's quite easy to get free switch momentum with Hydreigon anyway since he forces so many switches.

All in all, Hydreigon may not be the fastest and best Dragon defensively, but offensively he is one of the most dangerous dragons in OU, and easily defines the word "uncounterable". Unlike most Dragons, he needs little team support to be effective, and can easily threaten anything even at the very start of the battle. With the vast amount of sets Hydreigon can run, he's quite easy to fit on a team, since he can be a great Scarfer, Specs user, and even a great Sub Rooster like Kyurem. However, nothing compares to his mixed sets, which scares the shit out of any team that crosses it. Since his move pool is huge, he can easily adjust to your team's weaknesses. If your team has a huge problem against bulky Psychic and Ghost types, then Dark Pulse is a great STAB to threaten Reuniclus and Jellicent. If your team hates Sub CM Rain Rachi, then EQ can prevent it from setting up on you and is a better move to nab the OHKO on Max HP Heatran. If your team doesn't really seem to have any specific problems, then Roost can be used to improve it's longevity and to compensate for the LO recoil. If put in the hands of the right player, Hydreigon is easily:

"A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Also, he looks like a badass. That alone should give him an A-Rank :D.

I used to be a supporter of this, but anymore I'm not so sure. Hydreigon's biggest, and really it's only, niche is that of a wallbreaker, but the problem with that is OU has become so offensive lately that there aren't many walls left. More often than not, what will happen with Hydreigon is you'll bring him in, fire off one attack, and then either be forced out or get revenge-killed. Being weak to U-Turn and Fighting are just about the most grievous sins you can commit in OU, and Hydreigon has both, so he's very susceptible to U-Turners as well.

Also, and this is just a personal opinion of mine, but I challenge the notion of Hydreigon being a good scarfer. It's odd to say it, but even at a decent base 98 speed, Hydreigon is just too slow for OU. Being outsped by other Scarfers is definitely not something I look for in a Scarfer of my own, especially when he gets beat by so many of them (Salamence, Latios, Keldeo, Terrakion, etc.). If you really want to use Hydreigon, use him as an almighty beatstick and nothing else. He's outclassed by Latios in just about every other role (his only advantage over him as a Scarfer is he's not Tyranitar bait).

Plus, he doesn't even look all that badass. He looks like a fat dragon with a flower on it's head and two sock-puppets instead of hands.

 

[Schpoonman]

252SpAtk Life Orb Hydreigon (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/232SpDef Leftovers Jirachi (+SpDef): 49% - 58% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

Yeeaaahhhhno. Hydreigon is checked. Never countered.

 

[Lavos]

252SpAtk Life Orb Hydreigon (+SAtk) Earth Power vs 252HP/232SpDef Leftovers Jirachi (+SpDef): 49% - 58% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO. 17% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers.

Yeeaaahhhhno. Hydreigon is checked. Never countered.

can we please decide which moveset specifically hydreigon is running? i've heard draco meteor, dragon pulse, dark pulse, fire blast, surf, dark pulse, earth power, earthquake, u-turn, superpower, and roost so far. it's like torn-t suspect thread all over again, no one wants to decide on a set so then i can tell you what counters it. point is, hydreigon may have a fantastic movepool, and yes, if it could run eleven different moves, then it would be uncounterable. but pokemon only get four moveslots, guys. time to make up your minds. which four moves are going to make hydreigon a solid b-rank this time?

 

[False Sense]

can we please decide which moveset specifically hydreigon is running? i've heard draco meteor, dragon pulse, dark pulse, fire blast, surf, dark pulse, earth power, earthquake, u-turn, superpower, and roost so far. it's like torn-t suspect thread all over again, no one wants to decide on a set so then i can tell you what counters it. point is, hydreigon may have a fantastic movepool, and yes, if it could run eleven different moves, then it would be uncounterable. but pokemon only get four moveslots, guys. time to make up your minds. which four moves are going to make hydreigon a solid b-rank this time?

I think a relatively safe assumption is Draco Meteor, Fire Blast, Superpower, and Earthquake, but Dark Pulse seems to be an alternative to Earthquake. Depends on what you want to hit harder.

 

[alexwolf]

Lavos the standard Hydreigon set runs DM / Fire Blast / Superpower / EQ. Jirachi is 2HKOed by EQ, but is a very good check in rain.

 

[Schpoonman]

I'm not trying to insinuate that Hydreigon can run every move at all times. But there's no guarantee that that particular Hydreigon you're facing down doesn't carry a move that can break you in half, and that's what it means in him having no counters. He can conceivably run a crazy amount of very powerful offensive sets (EVERY Choice item, Expert Belt, Life Orb, Roost + 3 Attacks, Sub + 3 Attacks, SubRoost, etc.) and while you can make educated guesses based on what the rest of the team is you can't make sure that it's not a Choice Band set that 2HKOs your 252/252+ Eviolite Chansey.

In fact, that incredibly diverse capability is WHY he should be a candidate for A-tier. He's not like Tornadus-T who you KNOW is going to spam Hurricane or Deo-D who you KNOW is going to set hazards (though this sentence is slightly fallacious in that Torn-T and Deo-D do their jobs arguably infinitely better than Hydreigon does his); he could be anything and it just might be the thing that undoes your team.

 

[False Sense]

I'm not trying to insinuate that Hydreigon can run every move at all times. But there's no guarantee that that particular Hydreigon you're facing down doesn't carry a move that can break you in half, and that's what it means in him having no counters. He can conceivably run a crazy amount of very powerful offensive sets (EVERY Choice item, Expert Belt, Life Orb, Roost + 3 Attacks, Sub + 3 Attacks, SubRoost, etc.) and while you can make educated guesses based on what the rest of the team is you can't make sure that it's not a Choice Band set that 2HKOs your 252/252+ Eviolite Chansey.

In fact, that incredibly diverse capability is WHY he should be a candidate for A-tier. He's not like Tornadus-T who you KNOW is going to spam Hurricane or Deo-D who you KNOW is going to set hazards (though this sentence is slightly fallacious in that Torn-T and Deo-D do their jobs arguably infinitely better than Hydreigon does his); he could be anything and it just might be the thing that undoes your team.

In a way, I somewhat disagree with you on this. It's true that Hydreigon can run numerous sets, but not all of them are necessarily effective. It is true though that it does have those possibilities, so I guess that's something to consider. I think Hydreigon's main claim-to-fame is it's mixed set, due to the fact that, unlike most pokemon "with no counters" that have counters based on the set, but not as a whole, Hydreigon is capable of having practically no counters with one set. Things like Landorus don't have many hard counters due to the radically different nature of their (very good) sets. However, the individual sets can be countered. Hydreigon's mixed set has no real counters, and because of this, if Hydreigon safely gets on the field against something that doesn't immediately threaten it, it can get a kill. This is something that almost no other pokemon can boast, and that is why Hydreigon can be so effective.

 

[PK Gaming]

=====
Update
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Heracross added to D-tier
Golurk added to D-tier
Moltres added to D-tier


You know, I think Hydreigon for A-tier supporters actually have some ground to stand on. There's more to Hydreigon than just being uncounterable; Hydreigon is really good against most Sandstorm teams. It has this one key advantage over Latios, who vulnerable to Tyranitar. Hydreigon comes out on top against most members of sand: Tar / Celebi / Landorus / Heatran / Forretress / Hippowdon / Rotom-W all lose to Hydreigon one way or another, they'll lose. The catch is Terrakion, who is commonly found on sand teams, but other than that Hydreigon easily wipes the floor with Sand. Of course, a good Sand player like say... BKC, wouldn't let Hydreigon walk over his team, but if an equally good player were using Hydreigon to its maximum potential I could see it giving sand trouble. Not many players use Hydreigon in a competitive environment, but i've seen like Ginku use it in a tournament match, and Eo (or he did when I last talked to him) so it isn't just a Pokemon used by noobs or casuals. It's plagued by its unfortunate typing, sure but nothing is perfect.

I want to give it some more thought though.

Food for thought: If Drizzle were banned, I wouldn't hesitate to make this change, since Hydreigon beats sun & sand no problem.

EDIT: Togekiss: D or C tier

thoughts on this? (I haven't used or seen Togekiss)

 

[Adams]

Personally, after using Togekiss tons, I can say that she is a great partner for Jirachi and is a great ParaFlincher with decent bulk and speed.

 

[Takion]

=====
Update
=====

Heracross added to D-tier
Golurk added to D-tier
Moltres added to D-tier


You know, I think Hydreigon for A-tier supporters actually have some ground to stand on. There's more to Hydreigon than just being uncounterable; Hydreigon is really good against most Sandstorm teams. It has this one key advantage over Latios, who vulnerable to Tyranitar. Hydreigon comes out on top against most members of sand: Tar / Celebi / Landorus / Heatran / Forretress / Hippowdon / Rotom-W all lose to Hydreigon one way or another, they'll lose. The catch is Terrakion, who is commonly found on sand teams, but other than that Hydreigon easily wipes the floor with Sand. Of course, a good Sand player like say... BKC, wouldn't let Hydreigon walk over his team, but if an equally good player were using Hydreigon to its maximum potential I could see it giving sand trouble. Not many players use Hydreigon in a competitive environment, but i've seen like Ginku use it in a tournament match, and Eo (or he did when I last talked to him) so it isn't just a Pokemon used by noobs or casuals. It's plagued by its unfortunate typing, sure but nothing is perfect.

I want to give it some more thought though.

Food for thought: If Drizzle were banned, I wouldn't hesitate to make this change, since Hydreigon beats sun & sand no problem.

EDIT: Togekiss: D or C tier

thoughts on this? (I haven't used or seen Togekiss)

No love for Bisharp?

 

[Gimmick]

After using Slowking for awhile, I definitely think it deserves a slot on this list. At least C tier. It's one of the few solid switch-ins to Keldeo and Politoed, and is able to send off relatively powerful rain-boosted Surfs. It has a very wide variety of coverage and support moves, along with great resistances to common threats. Everyone knows it's a specially defensive Slowbro, and in a metagame filled with special attacks, that isn't a bad thing. Access to Regenerator and a solid recovery move in Slack Off increases its staying power to the max. It's a great tool to have especially against Rain teams, but it can take just about every special attack in the tier (it even forces Gengar to switch out due to the risk of Psyshock: 252 SpAtk Life Orb Gengar Shadow Ball vs 252 HP/252 SpDef Slowking (+SpDef) : 58.63% - 69.29% (2 hits to KO)). It even has something that Slowbro doesn't--Nasty Plot. Something that can act as a wonderful special tank can also turn around and be a really threatening sweeper (but really only under Trick Room). There really isn't anything else that plays the same roles as Slowking since it has such a unique typing; and Slowbro can't even dream of taking powerful special hits. EDIT: The downside between it and Slowbro is that it can be Pursuit trapped by TTar more easily.

Also Chandelure has the interesting niche of being able to switch into Scizor, no matter its set. It's also a great check to Lucario since it resists both its priority moves + Close Combat, which is only shared by Jellicent I believe (who more often than not will be slower and at risk of Crunch). Its Scarf set has sweeping potential and is actually quite powerful: 252 SpAtk Chandelure (+SpAtk) Fire Blast vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Landorus: 87.77% - 103.76% (Guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock). It's a good spinblocker, and isn't overshadowed by Gengar in the way that it doesn't really mind Forretress' Gyro Ball. It can 2HKO Tentacruel with Psychic, but like Gengar, is OHKO'd by Starmie. Also, Flame Body has the same burn chance as Scald, so Scizor has to be super careful in spamming U-turn. I want to say it's C rank, but its vulnerability to TTar is quite large and it can't spam either of its STABs until its gone. But the same thing can be seen with Lati@s I guess. EDIT: It also checks Breloom quite efficiently. With Sleep Talk, it becomes wonderful Spore fodder for the likes of Amoonguss and Breloom.

 

[Lolazo]

Please put Durant in C or B Rank, its a underrated sweeper, with Hone claws, Iron head, Thunder Fang, Superpower, Life Orb (Or Lum Berry for paralysis or burn) And Hustle, Hits entire metagame for at least Supereffective damage and Very Hard (+1 Durant Thunder Fang 2HKO Skarmory) , And with 109 speed base outspeed Terrakion and Keldeo and hit with Iron Head and Thunder Fang, Solid Counters are few (Volcarona, Zapdos and Slowbro) and can beaten with another coverage move like Rock Slide in case of first two or X-Scissor in Slowbro, Sadly, Hone Claws is difficult to set up (Only can Set Up in Pursuit Users except FB TTar, Defensive Pokes without T-Wave - Will o wisp and in Switches) he is outspeeded by special sweepers like Latios, Gengar, Alakazam and Starmie and is Weak to Choice Scarfers like Keldeo, but with Pursuit user Like TTar or Weavile can Trap Special Sweepers That can be problematic for Durant