np: OU Suspect Testing Round 1 - ...wait, I'm not Jumpman16!

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I don't quite like the direction this thread is taking. I see either a troll-fest or a fist-fight coming, and I don't want to be in either one.
To Gabe and Mitchell, we're big boys and girls. Let's cut the petty attacks and act like it. I came expecting discussion and saw both of you flinging attacks at each other instead.
/ignore all of the flame wars
Argument was over a long time ago, if you keep referring to it you're only going to ignite it again so stop please.


Anyway, I largely agree with Sax King.
 
Are you suggesting banning Drizzletoed to Ubers or banning it entirely? If the former, think about this: You'd be having two Drizzle users in the same tier. Guess which one is better? Definitely Kyogre. No one would use Drizzletoed in Ubers because it is outclassed in nearly every aspect by Kyogre. If the latter, then it seems like you should ban all the other weather users as well. But if Kyogre is fine in Ubers, then it should stay there, as it's not broken. Banning Drizzletoed from all tiers when it's worse than Kyogre is quite silly, and so is putting it in Ubers where it is outclassed.

Hopefully this post makes sense O_o
How a Pokemon performs in Ubers doesn't matter when classifying them as an uber.
 

shrang

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Okay, first of all, I want to say that I believe RAYQUAZA IS UBER.

I'm not going to dig through the thread to find the exact post, but someone mentioned something about discussing ubers as candidates in OU. It was interesting to see what everyone thought, but at this point, I think we need to steer away from the steel/dragon trend of gen 4. We already have enough dragons in OU, and it's dragonites' time in the spotlight.
Good to see that you have been convinced. See below:

This thread is a place to discuss the current metagame and potential suspects. Not to discuss which Pokemon should be moved down (which defeats the point of us even voting on a pre-ban list.)
I'm not really that concerned that it'll be a Steel/Dragon fest as of yet, there are plenty of variation in teams at the moment, mainly because we have so many different Pokemon running around, plus the fact that the Dragons, while awesome, are not as dominant as they were since we have stuff like Darkrai, Deoxys, rain and Dory running around.

Oh, and 1400 is the target for qualifying to vote, right? Standard OU tier?
1500 is the target set, but that is (very) susceptible to change. I don't think we only want 1-2 people voting on these suspects o_0.
 
Are you suggesting banning Drizzletoed to Ubers or banning it entirely? If the former, think about this: You'd be having two Drizzle users in the same tier. Guess which one is better? Definitely Kyogre. No one would use Drizzletoed in Ubers because it is outclassed in nearly every aspect by Kyogre.
Does that matter though? Ubers is a banlist. Politoed doesn't have to do well in it to be there.
 
Most of that I agree with, with two exceptions: Politoed and Doryuuzu. First off, rain isn't nearly as broken as you're making it out to be. There are plenty of ways to shut or slow it down, such as Nattorei, Ditto, Latios, Burungeru, Tyranitar/Hippowdon and so on (which are all great Pokemon in their own right). However, you drastically underestimate Dory. The only thing keeping Dory from being automatically broken is that rain is so common in this metagame that it can't always switch in and set up. Without rain, we will return to the 4th-gen standard of constant sand, and in the inevitable permanent sand, Dory will have 176 base speed (much more if you count EVs). 110 HP, 135 Attack, meager but not paper defenses, and 176 base speed make for a very strong Pokemon almost regardless of moves, and Dory's movepool (Swords Dance, EQ, Rock Slide) is good enough to make that worthwhile. Hell, with the assurance of permanent sand, Choice sets might start featuring and make it impossible to safely switch into Dory with anything but Skarmory. Constant sand will break Dory in the same way constant rain would break Manaphy (arguably broken already, but you get the point). Dory needs to have checks in the form of resilient weather changers or be removed from the standard metagame. Otherwise, his setup becomes much too easy and powerful for OU play.

About your general argument, you completely fail to explain what Dory's counters are and why rain checks/counters are insufficient. Your good word isn't quite worth a ban, I'm sorry to say. "Because face it" is not, in fact, the end-all to debate, nor is "LOL".
 
It lacks reliable recovery
It gets Recover how is that in any way not reliable?

And i also agree with Shrang.Dragon/Steel will forever dominate the metagame.As of now there are too many rather broken things running around for the dragons to shine but even so after the dust settles i think Weather and Dragons will be the biggest determining factors of the metagame
 
I see a lot of fuss about banning Abilities instead of banning Pokemon, and I'm a little confused.

I mean, the Pokemon that are completely carried by their abilities that get any mention at all are Politoed with Drizzle, and Octillery, Bibarel, Glalie, and Smeargle with Inconsistant.

With the notable exception of Smeargle, all of these Pokemon are basically terrible without their ability, and would see virtually no use should their ability be banned. So, what's the difference?

If the Pokemon is banned, no-one will use them because they're banned.

If the ability is banned, no-one will use them because they're terrible.

Either way, no-one is going to be using them, so unless you're just dieing to use Smeargle, why does it matter if the entire Pokemon is banned instead of the ability?
 
I see a lot of fuss about banning Abilities instead of banning Pokemon, and I'm a little confused.

I mean, the Pokemon that are completely carried by their abilities that get any mention at all are Politoed with Drizzle, and Octillery, Bibarel, Glalie, and Smeargle with Inconsistant.

With the notable exception of Smeargle, all of these Pokemon are basically terrible without their ability, and would see virtually no use should their ability be banned. So, what's the difference?

If the Pokemon is banned, no-one will use them because they're banned.

If the ability is banned, no-one will use them because they're terrible.

Either way, no-one is going to be using them, so unless you're just dieing to use Smeargle, why does it matter if the entire Pokemon is banned instead of the ability?
Okay, let's lump the entire playerbase into one group, then! You seriously think nobody would ever use any of these Pokemon? People might want them to occupy a specific niche that they might fill, or just use them for flavor, or whatever.

Abilities are far more prevalent this generation than any of the previous ones. Pokemon like Sableye, Volbeat, and Ditto have all become incredibly viable. ..Based SOLELY on their abilities alone. I think they should be looked at as an entirely separate entity when it comes to banning this generation.
 
Well then can still be quite viable in the lower tiers.Octillary is a good TR sweeper and Bibarel is a great Baton Pass receipent.Smeargle has that movepool..Glalie just sucks however.

The main reason banning the whole thing is a problem is because it dsn't benifit anyone in any way.It just puts some useless pokes that arent worth being ubers in the tier and the other tiers loose a useful poke.I really dont see the reason for facing such unnecessary problems.
 

Coronis

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Why do you all act like skymin's secondary effects have 100% consistency? Both STAB moves can miss, and if you're using seed flare against nattorei, you're an idiot.

Say nattorei switches in, and you alreay have a sub up. leech seed won't work. So your only option is to switch out, or use air slash. You need 5 hits to KO natt, but he only needs two gyro balls to kill you from behind the sub.

Keep in mind that, factoring in the accuracy of air slash, your chances of flinching an opponent are lower than hitting with hypnosis.

So does hypnosis always miss? Or does air slash flinch everytime? You can't have it both ways.
Using Seed Flare against Nattorei is a very viable strategy, you have an 80% chance of getting the Sp.def drop, and then its much easier to kill off with Air Slash.
 
Using Seed Flare against Nattorei is a very viable strategy, you have an 80% chance of getting the Sp.def drop, and then its much easier to kill off with Air Slash.

EDIT: Is this a glitch or something? I can''t change my tier to Standard OU because I have wobbuffet?
Are you on the Smogon server? I think it's banned on the beta server. So is Manaphy and Skymin and Darkrai and........

They basically just banned everything with minimal testing.
 

Coronis

Impressively round
is a Battle Simulator Moderator Alumnus
No it didn't have it, but now its working.

Anyways, Inconsistent really needs to be banned, it is totally broken. For those saying about their supposed counters, how do you counter something that is insanely fast, almost impossible to hit, and can OHKO you? It takes all skill out of the game, making it completely based on luck. As for the other suspects currently, I don't think any of them are really broken, except possibly Skymin.
 

Focus

Ubers Tester Extraordinaire
I may be repeating what others may have said, but here is my take on some of the candidates for testing/banning in the near future:

Inconsistent needs to be the first thing on the chopping block. From what I have seen inconsistent, while not completely game-breakingly good all the time, adds an unnecessary level of luck to the metagame. Additionally, the best you can usually do is force the inconsistent user out so it can try again later by using perish song, whirlwind, roar, or maybe haze/clear smog. Even that is usually detrimental, as you use up a turn while taking an attack to the face. Other than that, you have to hope for speed and evasion drops so you can actually attack/status it. In a nutshell, the ability inconsistent is a pain in the you-know-what, and it usually adds a huge element of luck to winning battles.

Skymin is annoying at times, but I am not completely convinced yet that it is broken. Skymin is blazingly fast for the metagame's standards, outspeeding all commonly seen pokémon without a boost except deoxys-A and deoxys-S. That killer ability serene grace is downright frightening considering it can wield seed flare and air slash to great effect. It has excellent type coverage with these moves and earth power or HP ground. It is also one of the best subseeders in the game with its reasonable bulk and blistering speed. However, skymin is not without its weaknesses. An obvious drawback is its bad defensive typing, being notably weak to rock, fire, and ice (4x), very common offensive types. It is also outsped by scarfed pokes with a base speed of 70 or higher, practically anything with +2 speed (like from chlorophyll, etc.), and those with access to priority moves (including erufuun's crippling stun spore). Another note is that air slash and seed flare have a nasty tendency to miss when skymin does not want a miss. All in all, skymin is threatening, but generally manageable.

For me, deoxys-A was somewhat underwhelming. That is almost certainly because I made my laddering team to be able to deal with it, but still. It is brought to shame by anything with good bulk and an offensive move. On the other hand, you really do have to play around it because it is very dangerous when allowed to attack more than once or twice. Extremespeed is a great revenge-killing move, but superpower and psycho boost are what make its offensive prowess known. Once again, I must stress how pathetic its defenses are. It has less defensive ability than smeargle! Every move sans rapid spin that hits will probably be an OHKO. Forretress has been invaluable in this regard, being able to withstand deoxys-A’s attacks with ease and counter with earthquake or gyro ball. Deoxys-A is easily revenge killed with priority, and extremespeed will rarely KO you first. The other deoxys formes are not nearly as immediately threatening (except maybe Deoxys-N, but I have yet to see one of those).

I have had really no problem at all with darkrai so far. Dark void is now at 80% accuracy, making it a bit shakier than it was last generation shaky. Sleep clause greatly limits its use anyway. Dark is a nice offensive type, but still has to rely on the notorious focus blast if it wants that much-needed power and coverage. Speaking of power, darkrai has access to nasty plot, and it has the stats to exploit it. Unfortunately, it has to make do with the 80 power dark pulse, though it has that nice flinch chance. Darkrai can also make good use of a trick scarf set, foiling many sleep absorbers and random counters that switch in. Darkrai, like skymin, is very fast. Base 125 is very good, but priority fighting moves are a problem without a custap berry. Its defenses aren’t abysmal, but darkrai just doesn’t enjoy taking hits at all.

I’ll talk about weather-related threats when I get the time later on.

Edit: Dark void's accuracy was always 80%. For some reason I thought it was 90% last gen.
 
Darkrai has been surprisingly underwhelming so far, considering when I saw it was off the initial ban list I was horrified. The 80% accuracy on the sleep move is pretty bad (stone miss anyone?), and it lacks punch if it doesn't pack nasty plot but subs on the switch, and is vulnerable to priority if it nasty plots. It also suffers from the additions of Roobushin and Voltolos, who wreck it with mach punch and priority taunt/t-wave. It is also outpaced by almost all scarfers and really doesn't like taking u-turns.

The big thing that makes drizzle broken is the never-ending rain. Part of the strategy in the last gen was keeping the rain up long enough to sweep. Bulky teams could stall out the turns and then block the setup or use the turns needed to switch and rain dance to set up their own attacks. Now, you can immediately start battering teams from square one, and if the opponent doesn't have a weather move, the rain never dies down. This removes an entire element of strategy that helped keep rain in check last gen. It's gotten so bad that I actually have been running Hail on my Vaporeon to clear weather (people are very reckless with their auto-inducer if they don't see one on your team, so this seems to be the best way to deal with weather with one catch-all that I've found).
 

shrang

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Just to clarify this:

Dark void is now at 80% accuracy, making it a bit shakier than it was last generation.
The 80% accuracy on the sleep move is pretty bad (stone miss anyone?)
Dark Void's always been at 80% accuracy, and for a sleep move, 80% is fabulous accuracy (the best after Spore). Sleep Powder is 75%, and even then plenty of people were calling for Venusaur to be chopped from UU because it was so good.
 

November Blue

A universe where hot chips don't exist :(
is a Contributor Alumnus
I'm seeing a lot of unsubstantiated reasoning in this thread. The words "broken" and "uber" are being thrown around like baseballs.

It's really easy to say "this 4th gen pokedex says that skymin is uber! It has base 127 speed, base 120 special attack, seed flare, serene grace, air slash, swords dance, higher attack than mew, spikes immunity and worry seed. Look at all these positive attributes! An OU pokemon should not have so many positive attributes! Skymin is broken. Skymin is uber, just like the pokedex says. Skymin should be uber too, because nobody wants to deal with it."

I've been playtesting all of the suspects (darkrai, skymin, manaphy, deoxys-A, ect.) and I believe that all of them are high OU. Sure, they can all sweep teams, but this isn't a bad thing. Lots of pokemon can sweep teams. Sure, you can point fingers because they all occupy unique niches and can't be contrasted against other pokes. None of them overcentralize or provide a grossly unfair advantage. A team with manaphy and politoed in it does not equal instawin.
 
No it didn't have it, but now its working.

Anyways, Inconsistent really needs to be banned, it is totally broken. For those saying about their supposed counters, how do you counter something that is insanely fast, almost impossible to hit, and can OHKO you? It takes all skill out of the game, making it completely based on luck. As for the other suspects currently, I don't think any of them are really broken, except possibly Skymin.
Welcome to pokemon. 50% of pokemon is luck alone. Factor in all those misses, crits, low chances to status, and low chances to drop stats. Inconsistent adds to this, but really isn't needed. All of this makes pokemon 50% luck. If you want inconsistent banned so much, start abusing it because you think it is overpowered.
 
50% is a serious exhageration. If it were 50% luck, we wouldn't even bother having competitive pokemon.
Well there was RBY...

I have to agree with Chou though, there are too many huge extrapolations in this thread for things like how much luck is involved. Yes there is luck in Pokemon with flinches, status and critical hits. However, we try to remove the unnecessary ones that add too much luck to what should be a skill based game.

"If you want inconsistent banned so much, start abusing it because you think it is overpowered." is a step in the right attitude (Playing to Win, not being a scrub) but seem to forget we have a banlist and clauses. That all means, if we don't want inconsistent we don't have to have it. If inconsistent stayed forever you could be sure I'd be abusing it eventually, fact of the matter is most people don't like facing it and a lot don't like using it because it removes thinking from their play.
 
Darkrai and even Deoxys-A are bulkier than people like to make them out to be. Both of them, when fairly healthy, can survive an unboosted Roobushin Mach Punch, and it's not exactly hard to keep them unboosted if you really want that. Darkrai can survive Scizor's Bullet Punch if need be. js

Also, people need to realize that Base Speed and actual Speed are not linearly related! If you double actual Speed, you well over double effective Base Speed. Stop saying Doryuuzu has 176 Base Speed.
 
Darkrai and even Deoxys-A are bulkier than people like to make them out to be. Both of them, when fairly healthy, can survive an unboosted Roobushin Mach Punch, and it's not exactly hard to keep them unboosted if you really want that.
This.

Darkrai especially is much bulkier than what people have been stating.

59.8% - 70.5% -- That's how much a max-attack unboosted Mach Punch from Roobushin is doing to Darkrai.
 
Also, people need to realize that Base Speed and actual Speed are not linearly related! If you double actual Speed, you well over double effective Base Speed. Stop saying Doryuuzu has 176 Base Speed.
I assume you're referring to me. Reread my post, please. I say:
Dory will have 176 base speed (much more if you count EVs)
While not strictly accurate, it does account for the difference once EVs are included. This also ignores the valid point that 176 "base speed" is insane on almost any Pokemon to begin with (second highest in the game, after Deoxys-S), and an even higher speed counting EVs is simply ridiculous. Do we want to have a Pokemon that only Scarf Deoxys and Ditto can outspeed...? It doesn't matter whether Dory's "base speed" is higher than 176, because it's so ridiculously fast in any case that you don't need to emphasize that it's actually higher.
 
That is right, the only Mach Punchs that are guranteed OHKOs are Life Orb Technician Punches from Breloom and Hitmontop (probably best Darkrai counter along with Ho-Oh which isn't allowed), at full health, Darkrai can maybe (67%) even survive a Guts boosted or Choice Band Roopushin Mach Punch (Life Orb recoil will kill you but still as an example). It is only 2 hit koed by Scizor Bullet Punch. It isn't THAT fragile. Deoxys A also could for example, survive resisted Mach Punches, at full health, Deoxys could by some miracle only has a 1/3 chance of dying to Life Orb Technician Breloom Mach Punch (the strongest Mach Punch there is) with base 50 hp and base 20 def. While anything other than Mach Punch is going to kill Deoxys A, one has to beware of relying on Mach Punch to take it out. Deoxys A is stronger than expected and Psycho Boost/Super Power/Extreme Speed/Hp Fire (? I'm not quite sure the standard last move but I assume either Hidden Power or Substitute) is tough. It outruns Tyranitar and pounds it with Superpower (honestly, when does Deoxys-A NOT have Superpower? It destroys Blissey and Tyranitar which is needed) and even Scizor is going to feel the sting of Psycho Boost (72.3% average, and Scizor is said to be one of Deoxy's best counters!). If one feels Gutsy, one can 2 hit ko Scizor with Psycho Boost (not as bad an idea as you think, you might as well go for it since if Deoxys tries to run, it will probably get Pursuited but few would expect Deoxys A to actually stay in on the face of Bullet Punch which is death and since they don't see it, they might try U-turn spamming or Pursuiting instead which means Deoxys A is free to Psycho Boost Choice Band Scizor into oblivion. If it kills you, you'll get a one for one since Scizor is severely weakened and things like Magnezone and Shanderra can come in).

Hp Fire roasts Scizor, Forretress, Nattorei. Extreme Speed can revenge kill and take out some priority users and it's natural speed is faster than most non Choice Scarfers. Focus Sash is also a useful item since most things are 1-2 hit koed by it unless they're insane walls and Deoxys A is likely to get 1-2 kills before dying, despite horrible defenses. If one relies on Mach Punchers to take it out, you're in for an unpleasant experience since it will take out 2 pokemon. And again, nothing likes switching into Psycho Boost that isn't Dark or 4X resisted as it hits even resisters extremely hard and those it doesn't get roasted by something else.

So yeah, Darkrai has average-ish (but not as bad as people make it out to be and if it wasn't for Mach Punch, it would tear apart OU), defenses and Deoxys-A has horrible defenses, but they're not as frail and koed by EVERYTHING as people make them out to be. The fact that Deoxys-A can survive Mach Punches and revenge kill is ridiculous. Nothing is going to like Psycho Boost are being Extreme Speed revenged. While it's Uber status is quite debateable, I lean on the side of removing it just because of it's insane power and Darkrai is Uber and the only reason that is questioned is because of Mach Punch but otherwise it would be quite hard to argue with it's power.

I'd bet on Shaymin-S and Manaphy being Uber as well (with or without rain +3 is a lot of power boost and it would sweep slower people). Shaymin is annoying and it can obviously flinch hax and Seed Flare defense drop people into oblivion and is insanely fast for non Choice Scarfers/Weather pokes. If it wasn't for Serene Grace, this wouldn't be that bad but Serene Grace makes the chances of effects a bit too high and it can do a variety of sweeping sets with Scarf to outrun EVERYONE that isn't Jolly Doryuzu, Life Orb for straight sweeping, Growth in Sun is Nasty Plot, Subseed, etc. A bit too strong, especially with the Serene Grace flinch hax flare drop terror.
 
I assume you're referring to me. Reread my post, please. I say:
While not strictly accurate, it does account for the difference once EVs are included. This also ignores the valid point that 176 "base speed" is insane on almost any Pokemon to begin with (second highest in the game, after Deoxys-S), and an even higher speed counting EVs is simply ridiculous. Do we want to have a Pokemon that only Scarf Deoxys and Ditto can outspeed...? It doesn't matter whether Dory's "base speed" is higher than 176, because it's so ridiculously fast in any case that you don't need to emphasize that it's actually higher.
Actually, it does need to be emphasized. A 176 speed pokemon can be revenged by a LO Deoxys-S and Jolly Scarfchomp. That's fast, but not that fast.

Doryuuzu's effective base speed in the sand is actually 225.5. That, on the other hand, really is that fast. And perhaps most importantly, it puts it above Scarf Skymin, who would otherwise destroy it with Seed Flare.
 
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