np: OU Suspect Testing Round 4 - Blaze of Glory

[November Blue]

Banning shell smash now?! Shrang, you should know better than to start that bandwagon.

Enough of these asinine complex bans. They only generate unproductive bickering and waste time. IMO we ban drizzle, possibly garchomp, and leave everything else. I'm really not sure about drought at this point, but banning sand is a ridiculous idea.

The difference between sand and drought/drizzle is that sand has no automatic boost to an attack type. The boost to water/fire attacks and inverse reduction, plus the effect on moves like hurricane and solarbeam are innate to drought/drizzle, and overpower them before the inclusion of weather abilities. Sand however, has the residual damage, nerf to moves like solarbeam, thunder and moonlight (the former two are situational to weather) and the rock type's spdef boost. None of these effects are anywhere near broken, and if the rock spdef boost is problematic it's because of the pokemon, not sand.

Sand is only rendered overpowering because of the pokes that abuse it. Garchomp, and possibly excadrill abuse sand with their abilities, and I believe that banning garchomp is the answer to sand rather than banning tyranitar, who is beneficial to the metagame (at least, more than he hinders it.)


Also, I noticed that a lot of people have nominated thundurus in the ID and noms thread. I fail to see how he is even remotely broken enough to warrant a ban. He's annoying, fast and powerful, sure. If he were bulky, maybe he'd be too much, but he's just too frail to back up his power and utility. Special walls still beat him, magic coaters beat him, scarf flygon gives him hell, lanturn walls him horribly (and a lot of other stuff too. Give lanturn a go!)


Lugia. I think we've reached a stalemate here. Mien has proven that lugia being stable in OU is a very real possibility, and instead of to and fro-ing about it, I think we should Nominate Lugia to be tested in OU in the ID and noms thread.

You don't have to be so averse to the idea. It's not like it's permanent once he gets in, we test him, then vote him back to ubers if he's too much. No harm done, and we all learn something.

 

[SuperMegaUltra]

I think an improtant factor to point out is that Sand Veil only works under sandstorm. So remove the problem with Drizzle or Drought and Garchomp looses the Evasion. That isn't to say Garchomp isn't broken. He is broken even without Sand Veil

What is Chomps goal when setting up Subs in Sand? To miss yes, but also to set up an SD and sweep from there. I could easily do the same thing if I bring a yache Chomp to the match or just switch in chomp on a choiced electric attack. The point I'm trying to make is that if you want to go banning sand veil without looking at how easily Garchomp can get a +2 without it, you haven't done your homework. Oh, and compared to the majority of sand veil users, they don't have that base 102 speed which makes Garchomp so good! /endrant

 

[Blackdragonking]

Alexwolf, please don't respond inside the quotes. It makes it hard to actually respond. I find it much easier to just divvy up the other person's quote and respond to each bit in turn; then they can do the same while discussing with you.

After even two DT, in PvE or PvP, your ability to strike the opponent becomes alarmingly inconsistent. I doubt it would take the metagame by storm, but it is an incredibly irritating move that was banned in case some ***hole spammed it and got really lucky like the computer does in Black and White. Minimize and Double Team are not very strong, and you admit this, but the fact remains they have no strategic value besides turning the game into a luck-based mission that can still backfire.

Sand Veil existing has strategic value besides abusing subs in sandstorm to get free turns by luck, like Garchomp does. Sand Veil Cacturne has a better movepool than Water Absorb Cacturne, even though WA Cacturne has a useful immunity and some health gain. I still feel a complex ban on Sand Veil and Sand Stream together is total overkill with Garchomp gone, however, and with the Suspect Voting thread as a guide, that landshark's about to bite the bullet hard. With him out of the picture, the only OU sand veil pokemon is Gliscor, who never uses Sand Veil anymore because Poison Heal is so much better. Which means my point of Mold Breakers beating the weaker Snow Cloak/Sand Veil users is perfectly viable; Pinsir can be used in any tier, since his usage is craptastic, so whether it's Froslass in UU or Glaceon and Cacturne in RU/NU, you can still use him. I simply don't feel this knee-jerk "All Evasion must die" reaction is going to be worth it; with Garchomp gone, the strategy's dead. Cacturne's not fast enough to spam subs, and neither is Gliscor. Froslass is a suicide lead who's only got one good hit in her as it is. Glaceon's slow and made of glass, Sandslash is slow and easily cut down by a still very accurate Ice Beam, Donphan is terrible without Sturdy and his Gen IV moves available, and Mamoswine's weaknesses all still have very high accuracy against him in hail except Fire Blast and Hydro Pump.

Should probably say something that in a meta with all the best Snow Cloakers in one place (UU) Hail is still considered an effing terrible playstyle without Kyurem. Why punish it further? Snow Cloak's all it's got.

--

To keep up on recent events, Garchomp as it's being played isn't likely restricting Latios as it is; only the scarf set outspeeds Latios, and that's fallen hugely in popularity compared to SubChomp. I predict something in the vicinity of fsck and all will happen with Latios if Garchomp goes, but boy would it be nice to see both of them die in one round of testing.

Also, people still haven't answered WHY exactly we suddenly want to see how Lugia handles OU. Is there some sort of conspiracy where we try and sneak the best walls in the entire game out of Ubers on the basis that Tyranitar can handle them? Forgive me, but that still seems idiotic. Why not unban Palkia while we're at it? Ferrothorn/Jellicent/Excadrill completely walls that sh*t, am I right? No problem at all!

 

[Agammemnon]

There is a major issue no-one seems to have noticed : if we ban Sand Veil Garchomp, it will also make it lose a part of its movepool, notably 4th Gen TM and Tutors.
It means : no more Stealth Rock, no more Aqua Tail (and Sleep Talk, Dragon Pulse, but no one cares).
To my mind, destroying some of one specific Pokemon's area of effectiveness is against the public will.
That's why I'd like to suggest to simply include Sand Veil effect (as well as Snow Cloak, even if it's quite irrelevant due to its uselessness) into Evasion Clause. This way, Garchomp would still be Garchomp, without being banned because some moronic idiots abused of its 20% evasion boost.
Then we can question ourselves "Is it broken without haxx ?"

EDIT : I can also see some people stating they want a Sand veil ban, a XX ban, etc. To me it's quite ridiculous, because those people haven't probably thought about the consequences of banning a specific ability. With Dream World, doing so disallows certain pokemons to have certain moves, and it's pretty uncompetitive in terms of equality. That's why I think we shouldn't be banning a specific ability. I guess the right solution for Sand Veil is reducing it to 0, as Evasion Clause did in DPP with Double Team and Minimize.

Peace.

 

[alexwolf]

There is a major issue no-one seems to have noticed : if we ban Sand Veil Garchomp, it will also make it lose a part of its movepool, notably 4th Gen TM and Tutors.
It means : no more Stealth Rock, no more Aqua Tail (and Sleep Talk, Dragon Pulse, but no one cares).
To my mind, destroying some of one specific Pokemon's area of effectiveness is against the public will.
That's why I'd like to suggest to simply include Sand Veil effect (as well as Snow Cloak, even if it's quite irrelevant due to its uselessness) into Evasion Clause. This way, Garchomp would still be Garchomp, without being banned because some moronic idiots abused of its 20% evasion boost.
Then we can question ourselves "Is it broken without haxx ?"

EDIT : I can also see some people stating they want a Sand veil ban, a XX ban, etc. To me it's quite ridiculous, because those people haven't probably thought about the consequences of banning a specific ability. With Dream World, doing so disallows certain pokemons to have certain moves, and it's pretty uncompetitive in terms of equality. That's why I think we shouldn't be banning a specific ability. I guess the right solution for Sand Veil is reducing it to 0, as Evasion Clause did in DPP with Double Team and Minimize.

Peace.

if you read throughout the last pages you will notice that the movepool restriction problem has been mentioned several times...this is why if you have spent like 10 minutes to read the last posts u would have seen that another proposal is the combined ban of sand veil and sand stream which doesn't create any movepool restrictions as long as you don't use it with a sand streamer...
also i don't really get what you mean to include sand veil into evasion's clause effect...you mean that the ability would be usable but it wouldn't give you any evasion boost at all???so you suggest something like sleep clause???the ability won't be banned but its effect will be prevented from working???

 

[Agammemnon]

That's exactly what I'm saying.

 

[alexwolf]

Alexwolf, please don't respond inside the quotes. It makes it hard to actually respond. I find it much easier to just divvy up the other person's quote and respond to each bit in turn; then they can do the same while discussing with you.

ok!

After even two DT, in PvE or PvP, your ability to strike the opponent becomes alarmingly inconsistent. I doubt it would take the metagame by storm, but it is an incredibly irritating move that was banned in case some ***hole spammed it and got really lucky like the computer does in Black and White. Minimize and Double Team are not very strong, and you admit this, but the fact remains they have no strategic value besides turning the game into a luck-based mission that can still backfire.

all these things that you mentioned are right but they only prove one point:not only broken things get banned...if something makes the metagame too luck based then it can get banned also...

Sand Veil existing has strategic value besides abusing subs in sandstorm to get free turns by luck, like Garchomp does. Sand Veil Cacturne has a better movepool than Water Absorb Cacturne, even though WA Cacturne has a useful immunity and some health gain. I still feel a complex ban on Sand Veil and Sand Stream together is total overkill with Garchomp gone, however, and with the Suspect Voting thread as a guide, that landshark's about to bite the bullet hard. With him out of the picture, the only OU sand veil pokemon is Gliscor, who never uses Sand Veil anymore because Poison Heal is so much better. Which means my point of Mold Breakers beating the weaker Snow Cloak/Sand Veil users is perfectly viable; Pinsir can be used in any tier, since his usage is craptastic, so whether it's Froslass in UU or Glaceon and Cacturne in RU/NU, you can still use him. I simply don't feel this knee-jerk "All Evasion must die" reaction is going to be worth it; with Garchomp gone, the strategy's dead. Cacturne's not fast enough to spam subs, and neither is Gliscor. Froslass is a suicide lead who's only got one good hit in her as it is. Glaceon's slow and made of glass, Sandslash is slow and easily cut down by a still very accurate Ice Beam, Donphan is terrible without Sturdy and his Gen IV moves available, and Mamoswine's weaknesses all still have very high accuracy against him in hail except Fire Blast and Hydro Pump.

first of all i don't know for which other value you were talking about sand veil on garchomp except from abusing it with subs...if this ability wasn't so abusable we wouldn't have any probelm...but the problem is that any poke can abuse this ability with sub and lefties and propably take the game out of the opponents control...
also sand veil cacturne would still retain his moveset and his sand immunity if we decide to make a complex ban...!

anyway it is just a matter of principle as i have said million times...of 'course without garchomp around the games that would be lost due to sand veil misses or snow cloak misses would be very very little but still...why allow even one battle to be lost when it shouldn't when we can remove the problem without any downfall?
and i am saying without any downfall because this complex ban doesn't set any predecessor exactly like aldaron's proposal didn't...weather is not a normal ability and its effects affect largely the meta in a unique way...that's why the only predecessor that aldaron's propsal sets is weather ability + weather ability related complex bans which is logical to me...and sand veil + sand stream is exactly that kind combo...
on a last note froslass in uu is pretty ragequitting in hail teams as she can easily stack 3 layers of spikes making the game much more easy for the froslass user...
and pinsir is not used for a reason man...why do you think it is nu???if we all resort to using pinsir just to counter snow cloak then there is a problem(not that pinsir counters froslass but anyway)...

Should probably say something that in a meta with all the best Snow Cloakers in one place (UU) Hail is still considered an effing terrible playstyle without Kyurem. Why punish it further? Snow Cloak's all it's got.

snow cloak is not hail's selling point...hail's main point is the constant residual damage that it offers and the 100% accurate blizzard(and of 'course the canceling of other weathers)and even ice body...snow cloak is the worst out of all these profits and only froslass would ever use it...so it isn't a big deal...and even if it was it wouldn't matter in the slightest...
maybe a lot of crappy and underrated pokemon could see a lot of use if double team or ohko moves were allowed but does it matter???not at all...in the same way when brightpowder was banned cacturne got a serious nerf but did we care???no...if something is broken or adds too much luck to the metagame then it goes no matter how much of a nerf this means to a group of pokes...

--

To keep up on recent events, Garchomp as it's being played isn't likely restricting Latios as it is; only the scarf set outspeeds Latios, and that's fallen hugely in popularity compared to SubChomp. I predict something in the vicinity of fsck and all will happen with Latios if Garchomp goes, but boy would it be nice to see both of them die in one round of testing.

i agree about garchomp but not about latios...

Also, people still haven't answered WHY exactly we suddenly want to see how Lugia handles OU. Is there some sort of conspiracy where we try and sneak the best walls in the entire game out of Ubers on the basis that Tyranitar can handle them? Forgive me, but that still seems idiotic. Why not unban Palkia while we're at it? Ferrothorn/Jellicent/Excadrill completely walls that sh*t, am I right? No problem at all!

i totally agree with that!although the man that supported lugia's testing showed some nice thought process and wasn't just telling random shit i think that every good player can form a text like his with reasons as to why many ubers should be unbanned...
for example every man can write how ho-oh or giratina can fit into the ou metagame if he wants to...but the fact is that it is a lot more difficult than this to prove that one of the best walls in ubers is ou worthy...

 

[TheValkyries]

Can you make it so that Sand Veil doesn't have an effect when played on the Cartridge. One cannot forget that we simulate an actual game here, and we aren't the ones who make it. We can't be making decisions for how the game should've been made, and can only make decisions about how we play it. It's a fine line we walk sometimes.

In the case of Garchomp and his power, part of it has to do with Sand Veil, yes. At the same time though, part of it is also Swords Dance, his bulk, his STAB perfect coverage on everything bar Skarmory and Bronzong, and his powerful attack options for said STABs. He's an amalgam of various problems, and that's why he's so powerful. If Garchomp truly is really so bad that we have to do something, then he has to be banned, and so be it. I'm neither for nor against his banning, but I'm resolutely opposed to the idiotic banning of abilities, such as banning Sand Veil in a blatant attempt to nerf Garchomp.






When it comes to Drizzle... I give up. Everyone is intent on banning it because of the one nightmare period and no one's actually thinking critically about it. Everyone just views the positives of a good strategy, ignores the negatives, and joins the bandwagon. I literally saw a post in the nom thread saying weather wars exist because of Drizzle, when there are more NON-Weather teams than there are weather teams, two times as many Sand teams as there are Drizzle teams, and Drizzle only gets used 10% of the time in this meta-game. Really just the pinnacle of centralization. My other favorite so far is, "I've swept so many times with rain it's not even funny!" Obviously, winning games is overpowered, we clealy need to put a stop to that... Really? That's allowed as reasoning for a ban? Because you can use the strategy to win? I'm sorry, but we've gone off the deep-end, and no amount of my pulling on the reins can take us back. I guess I'm forced to go along with the ride.

 

[RaRaRabbit]

When it comes to Drizzle... I give up. Everyone is intent on banning it because of the one nightmare period and no one's actually thinking critically about it. Everyone just views the positives of a good strategy, ignores the negatives, and joins the bandwagon. I literally saw a post in the nom thread saying weather wars exist because of Drizzle, when there are more NON-Weather teams than there are weather teams, two times as many Sand teams as there are Drizzle teams, and Drizzle only gets used 10% of the time in this meta-game. Really just the pinnacle of centralization. My other favorite so far is, "I've swept so many times with rain it's not even funny!" Obviously, winning games is overpowered, we clealy need to put a stop to that... Really? That's allowed as reasoning for a ban? Because you can use the strategy to win? I'm sorry, but we've gone off the deep-end, and no amount of my pulling on the reins can take us back. I guess I'm forced to go along with the ride.

This. By far.


I love how in the usage statistics and other threads people say things like "WEATHER IS IN 90% OF THE GAMES" and all they did was add the 2 percentages. Then maybe 1 or 2 other members say "your math is wrong..." and everyone ignores them.

Ffs people, Politoed is in the top 20, not the top 10. And no, ferrothorn is not used primarily to counter drizzle, it is used because it is an amazing pokemon. I do not understand the hate on drizzle. Not with sand being in the top 10 with twice as many sand teams, and not with there being more non-weather teams. People just need something to blame apparently.

 

[Ninja_13]

When it comes to Drizzle... I give up. Everyone is intent on banning it because of the one nightmare period and no one's actually thinking critically about it. Everyone just views the positives of a good strategy, ignores the negatives, and joins the bandwagon. I literally saw a post in the nom thread saying weather wars exist because of Drizzle, when there are more NON-Weather teams than there are weather teams, two times as many Sand teams as there are Drizzle teams, and Drizzle only gets used 10% of the time in this meta-game. Really just the pinnacle of centralization. My other favorite so far is, "I've swept so many times with rain it's not even funny!" Obviously, winning games is overpowered, we clealy need to put a stop to that... Really? That's allowed as reasoning for a ban? Because you can use the strategy to win? I'm sorry, but we've gone off the deep-end, and no amount of my pulling on the reins can take us back. I guess I'm forced to go along with the ride.

QFT.

 

[Birkal]

When it comes to Drizzle... I give up. Everyone is intent on banning it because of the one nightmare period and no one's actually thinking critically about it. Everyone just views the positives of a good strategy, ignores the negatives, and joins the bandwagon. I literally saw a post in the nom thread saying weather wars exist because of Drizzle, when there are more NON-Weather teams than there are weather teams, two times as many Sand teams as there are Drizzle teams, and Drizzle only gets used 10% of the time in this meta-game. Really just the pinnacle of centralization. My other favorite so far is, "I've swept so many times with rain it's not even funny!" Obviously, winning games is overpowered, we clealy need to put a stop to that... Really? That's allowed as reasoning for a ban? Because you can use the strategy to win? I'm sorry, but we've gone off the deep-end, and no amount of my pulling on the reins can take us back. I guess I'm forced to go along with the ride.

In response to the part I bolded, what exactly are the negatives of banning Drizzle? I have my mind made up as to what they are, but I'd like to hear your perspective on it specifically.

 

[Nkululeko]

In the case of Garchomp and his power, part of it has to do with Sand Veil, yes. At the same time though, part of it is also Swords Dance, his bulk, his STAB perfect coverage on everything bar Skarmory and Bronzong, and his powerful attack options for said STABs. He's an amalgam of various problems, and that's why he's so powerful. If Garchomp truly is really so bad that we have to do something, then he has to be banned, and so be it. I'm neither for nor against his banning, but I'm resolutely opposed to the idiotic banning of abilities, such as banning Sand Veil in a blatant attempt to nerf Garchomp.

Thank you

When it comes to Drizzle... I give up. Everyone is intent on banning it because of the one nightmare period and no one's actually thinking critically about it. Everyone just views the positives of a good strategy, ignores the negatives, and joins the bandwagon. I literally saw a post in the nom thread saying weather wars exist because of Drizzle, when there are more NON-Weather teams than there are weather teams, two times as many Sand teams as there are Drizzle teams, and Drizzle only gets used 10% of the time in this meta-game. Really just the pinnacle of centralization. My other favorite so far is, "I've swept so many times with rain it's not even funny!" Obviously, winning games is overpowered, we clealy need to put a stop to that... Really? That's allowed as reasoning for a ban? Because you can use the strategy to win? I'm sorry, but we've gone off the deep-end, and no amount of my pulling on the reins can take us back. I guess I'm forced to go along with the ride.

Rain is currently nerfed. It should've been banned and tbh it stands at a natural advantage versus other playstyles bar Sand. That's why Sand is so popular, it beats Rain (weather in general) without being over-specialized and sucking against the other 90% of the meta.
Edit: Weather wars started because of the nightmare you mentioned and usage doesn't always reflect broken-ness.

 

[Mishra]

This. By far.


I love how in the usage statistics and other threads people say things like "WEATHER IS IN 90% OF THE GAMES" and all they did was add the 2 percentages. Then maybe 1 or 2 other members say "your math is wrong..." and everyone ignores them.

Ffs people, Politoed is in the top 20, not the top 10. And no, ferrothorn is not used primarily to counter drizzle, it is used because it is an amazing pokemon. I do not understand the hate on drizzle. Not with sand being in the top 10 with twice as many sand teams, and not with there being more non-weather teams. People just need something to blame apparently.

I would like to say, SJCrew made this amazing post earliar, that in the metagame, weather wars may not be every match. But if you look into the competitive metagame, weather wars would probably be closer to 80-90% of top tiered matches.

Again, going by just last round, you would think Missingo clocking in at 81 would be a large hint that those usage stats are almost garbage % wise towards, say, the top 30-50 perhaps.

 

[KurashiDragon]

Rain is currently nerfed. It should've been banned and tbh it stands at a natural advantage versus other playstyles bar Sand. That's why Sand is so popular, it beats Rain (weather in general) without being over-specialized and sucking against the other 90% of the meta.
Edit: Weather wars started because of the nightmare you mentioned and usage doesn't always reflect broken-ness.

This

Sand as he has just stated is the anti weather. It can successfully battle through other types of weather without actually being overpowered. That's why sand is used so much. If Drizzle and possibly Drought were gone sand would rein as the best weather but wouldn't be overpowered. (Unless garchomp were still around.)

@TheValkyeries

You state that there are negatives to Drizzle. I would like to know these negatives myself. Throughout the entire time I've played 5th gen I've always had a problem with Rain. What are these negatives that make Drizzle so not broken and can they be applied so easily to other players besides you?

 

[Glen ^^]

People calls being swept by Manaphy and Swift Swimmers a nightmare?

I'd say missing twice against Garchomp, having your walls weakened by him and then swept by your average Excadrill a nightmare. And worse, a nightmare that'll never end because sand's around since 3rd gen and drizzle is a newcomer, and's too bothersome to adapt (hence the Swift Swim and Blaziken ban, something that should've never happened with things like Landorus and Excadrill around).

People says that weather wars suck. What wouldn't suck? Everyone running sand teams like DP, but this time deciding matches by who kills their Excadrill/Excadrill counter first?

 

[Mario With Lasers]

When it comes to Drizzle... I give up.

Welcome to the club.

Everyone just views the positives of a good strategy, ignores the negatives, and joins the bandwagon.

Huh. I wish you could tell us the negatives of using Drizzle. Not that I'm saying Drizzle is perfect, but not saying them won't make them any more obvious to anyone.

I literally saw a post in the nom thread saying weather wars exist because of Drizzle, when there are more NON-Weather teams than there are weather teams, two times as many Sand teams as there are Drizzle teams, and Drizzle only gets used 10% of the time in this meta-game. Really just the pinnacle of centralization.

Which part of the ladder are we talking about? The part where Swampert, Chandelure and Cloyster have higher usage than Latias?

I'm sorry, but we've gone off the deep-end, and no amount of my pulling on the reins can take us back. I guess I'm forced to go along with the ride.

No, my brother, we'll reach the deep-end if the "ban all weather" side wins. The way things seem to look now, Drizzle being banned for the time being is the lesser evil.

People calls being swept by Manaphy and Swift Swimmers a nightmare?

I'd say missing twice against Garchomp, having your walls weakened by him and then swept by your average Excadrill a nightmare. And worse, a nightmare that'll never end because sand's around since 3rd gen and drizzle is a newcomer, and's too bothersome to adapt (hence the Swift Swim and Blaziken ban, something that should've never happened with things like Landorus and Excadrill around).

You must be joking if you want to compare Kingdra in Round 2 to Excadrill in Round 4.

 

[Nkululeko]

You must be joking if you want to compare Kingdra in Round 2 to Excadrill in Round 4.

Why not? Excadrill in Round 4 is essentially a worse Kingdra in Round 2.
Edit:And tbh, Kingdra had some major back up. Kabutops, Ludicolo, and friends were in the same annoyance tier as Excadrill, just with a stronger leader and extra stabs.

 

[flashkickass]

wow. excadril is weak against 2 common priority moves(mach punch/aqua jet) and doesn't get a stab boost like kingdra does. kingdra also has near perfect typing and better bulk.

 

[Glen ^^]

You must be joking if you want to compare Kingdra in Round 2 to Excadrill in Round 4.

The only difference is that Excadrill doesn't have (yet) a Sand Rush partner like Kingdra had.

wow. excadril is weak against 2 common priority moves(mach punch/aqua jet) and doesn't get a stab boost like kingdra does. kingdra also has near perfect typing and better bulk.

He doesn't need the boost with 135 base atk. Actually, it's better that way, as he hits at full power whatever the weather. And he's immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic, and 2x resistant to SR, so not even Thundurus/passive damage can stop him.

 

[Rosey Oak]

wow. excadril is weak against 2 common priority moves(mach punch/aqua jet) and doesn't get a stab boost like kingdra does. kingdra also has near perfect typing and better bulk.

Yes, UU Azumarill's Aqua Jet is a counter to Excadrill, but really how often do you see Azumarill in OU. As for mach punch...

A Max HP/Att Conkeldurr at 416 Att, using a stab mach punch with iron fist ability on Excadrill, will NEVER be able to OHKO it. (266HP - Average/ 73.68%)
However, Excadrill after one SD will OHKO it back on average with Earthquake.

And as for Breeloom,
Tech Mach Punch versus Excadrill:

394 Atk vs 157 Def & 361 HP (60 Base Power): 324 - 384 (89.75% - 106.37%)
Additionally, Excadrill can OHKO Breeloom back on average with return.


Excadrill may not get the stab boost weather like Kingdra in rain, however it does get a superior base 135 attack. Additionally, NO choice scarf revenge killers are able to outrun him (in sand), due to his superior times two speed boost. Thus you are heavy dependant on using counters to stop him i.e (OU) Gliscor, Skarmory and Brongzong. However with the loss of just one of these counters, Excadrill can usually get an easy sweep (and there is no other effective way to stop him.)

Furthermore, Excadrill gets great typing for a sweeper in the sense that he 2x resists SR, he's immune to poison, he can't be T-waved either. He also has enough bulk to survive deadly hits, as I have already shown with Conkeldurr.


EDIT: I agree that Kingdra in Drizzle is of a greater threat than Excadrill in Sand Stream, however this does not mean Excadrill is not an issue.

 

[KurashiDragon]

394 Atk vs 157 Def & 361 HP (60 Base Power): 324 - 384 (89.75% - 106.37%)

It should also be noted that techniloom isn't released yet.

That said however, Kingdra doesn't have any priority weaknesses. Infact it's resistant to bullet Punch and Aqua Jet. Also Water/Dragon is much better typing than Ground/steel. Finally 4x Water Stab gives Kingdra much more immidiate power than 135 Base Atk.

 

[Nkululeko]

Why not? Excadrill in Round 4 is essentially a worse Kingdra in Round 2.
Edit:And tbh, Kingdra had some major back up. Kabutops, Ludicolo, and friends were in the same annoyance tier as Excadrill, just with a stronger leader and extra stabs.

wow. excadril is weak against 2 common priority moves(mach punch/aqua jet) and doesn't get a stab boost like kingdra does. kingdra also has near perfect typing and better bulk.

Exactly. Both mons are great sweepers because of the double speed they get in their respective weathers and both had their time as suspects(or should've), but Kingdra has better typing, bulk, and STABs due to Drizzle. Hence, Excadrill is essentially a worse Kingdra in their respective rounds of dominance.

The only difference is that Excadrill doesn't have (yet) a Sand Rush partner like Kingdra had.

Kingdra was also all around better. Unlike Excadrill, Kingdra is good without weather, it's Uber with it.

He doesn't need the boost with 135 base atk. Actually, it's better that way, as he hits at full power whatever the weather. And he's immune to Thunder Wave and Toxic, and 2x resistant to SR, so not even Thundurus/passive damage can stop him.

Depends on whose weather is up. Thundurus OHKOs with Focus Blast/Hammer Arm most of the time, which will happen under Rain, but in Sand naw he's skrewed.

 

[flashkickass]

yes they both are amazing. i was just saying that kingdra is worse.

 

[SlimMan]

Lol, sorry SlimMan. I just wanted to post it formally as my nomination to ensure that my points will be taken into account/deliberation. But I too feel that the problem has been address, I've said all I've needed to say, and we can move on now. (Regarding Drizzle and Drought.)

s'ok

I hope they don't ban sandstorm(/hail) in general, because I feel that the only ones who break it are Sand Rush Excadrill and Sand Veil Garchomp. How we go about fixing this issue, is the matter at hand.

In the end it could come all down to, banning Tyrannitar and Hippowdon OR banning Excadrill and Chomp.

This. Sandstorm is like, the one weather where banning individual abusers isn't going overboard. With other weathers, so many things could hypothetically be on a team. With Sandstorm, the 3 abusers are: Excadrill, Garchomp, Landorus. Landorus doesn't even get talked about anymore, now that his glitch is fixed.

I think that the loss of Chomp or Exca would be better for the metagame than the loss of Hippo or Tar. If we lose Hippo and Tar, we effectively lose Excadrill as well, given that he'll drop straight down to UU. So we would lose three 'mons then, as opposed to the one or two we'd lose by getting rid of Sand abusers.

If Garchomp (and Excadrill) were to leave OU as a whole, I feel that we would have lost a great asset to the Metagame, however it does solve the pending issue. I do hope they consider bringing back Rough Skin Chomp back though, as this ability does not break Chomp (and I happen to be a fan of the Pokemon), however such a complex ban may open up a whole new debate.

I agree with your first statement, that it solves the issue. However, I disagree with a complex ban. For one thing, I don't think we should use them at all. For another thing, why is Garchomp special enough to necessitate one? He's not, as far as I can see.

In scenario 2 banning Tyranitar, could cause an imbalance in the Metagame (due to it's Dark and Rock typing which the OU Metagame lacks without its presence.) Sand Stream Tyranitar could be banned and then brought back once it gets it's DW ability, however such a complex ban is yet to happen.

In my opinion I feel that the loss of Tyranitar would hurt the Metagame more, however if it's only kept to counter 'Latios', then I feel that maybe Latios is more of an issue itself.

Yeah, Tar checks so much shit right now. I mean, if it's broken, and holding other broken stuff back, then ban it and then worry about the other things. But Tar isn't broken.
Ugh. Another complex ban suggestion. Ugh.


edit: I agree with JTSwift about the Sand thing. I'm on the fence about Thundurus.
But I disagree about Lugia. I've read everything that mien has said, and I don't think it could be OU material. I don't think it's a good idea to use a round of testing on something which doesn't heave a shot (IMO). It seems an inefficient use of our limited number of months.
This is like the Giratina thing. You think it's a good idea at the time, but then give up on it after a while. The difference is that this just happened to come along at the same time as nominations.

 

[Rosey Oak]

Yeah, Tar checks so much shit right now. I mean, if it's broken, and holding other broken stuff back, then ban it and then worry about the other things. But Tar isn't broken. Ugh. Another complex ban suggestion. Ugh.

I agree that Tyranitar isn't broken, and that it is essential in OU to provide as a check to specific Pokemon, however I read somewhere that Tyranitar needs to stay because 'it is the only reliable Latios counter'. This should not be the sole reason to keep Tyranitar in OU and if this is the case, then I feel that it says more about Latios status in OU rather than Tyrannitar's.

I know that there is no justified reason at the moment to have a complex ban, I'm just sad to see (Rough Skin) Garchomp leave OU.. lol

But don't get me wrong, I rather something broken was banned completely, than not have it banned at all.