Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

[Bent1ey]

I vote Genesect to S+, because Deoxys-D and Terrakion simply don't belong to the same tier than Gene. Terrakion is one nasty powerful revengekiller and a decent sweeper, but it lacks of the easy switch ins and the annoying ability to U-turn everything. Deoxys-D is a powerful spiker nearly impossible to stop, but he's the definition of a one-trick pony and just barely belongs to S in comparition to Drizzletoed.

The only pokemon who comes close to match Genesect is Drizzletoed, they can go to S+, and this could lead to bump Ninetales to S where it belongs.

 

[FaceFaceFace]

How is Drizzletoed even on the same level as Genesect? The only reason it's on par with Terrakion and Deoxys-D is because of Drizzle and the menagerie of rain abusers in OU. As a Pokemon, Toed's just not that good. It's versatile, but not that good.

I agree with you on Deoxys-D, though. It's not nearly as broken as some make it to be. Even if (fingers cross) Genesect gets banned, Scizor, Tyranitar etc all check Deoxys-D pretty well.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Do you guys eve look at the descriptions?

S-teir: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Politoed is an amazing team supporter, making things like Tornadus-T and Keldeo into monsters, as well as making Ferrothorn and Tentacruel into amazing walls. It is also a solid weather changer, able to switch into all the weather starts outside of Abomasnow with little to no worries. While politoed may not be an amazing pokemon all by itself, it can certainly provide the support needed to do its job. There is a reason its the second most used pokemon.

btw, you can't have a suspect above other suspects tier...

 

[FaceFaceFace]

My point was not that Toed isn't S Tier; it definitely is. All S-Tier Pokemon have a few drawbacks that make them manageable...save Genesect, who arguably belongs in a league all by itself.

 

[thebrownie]

I don't find Genesect hard to deal with. It's easily a threat to every team, but if you build a team with a reliable way of dealing with it (same with baton pass) it's not a big deal. There isn't a real reliable way to deal with Toed from what I can tell because it's purpose is just to get the weather up, anything else is gravy.

 

[ginganinja]

Volcarona and Venusaur should prolly be A Rank. Both do an excellent job at sweeping large parts of the metagame. From the OP

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

Volcarona and Venusaur can sweep teams very well and without too much difficulty but, each have flaws which prevent them from doing this consistently. Volcarona suffers from that large SR weakness, and 4MSS to an extent. It can customise its moveset to offset the SR weakness somewhat, beat bulky water types, nail Heatran or Terrakion etc etc, but it cannot do all of this at once and thus, its prevented from sweeping consistently. Venusaur is in a similar boat, it lacks a crippling SR weakness, but again, its moveset can be fairly restricted, with Sunny Day, Sleep Powder, Hidden Power Fire, Hidden Power Ice, Sludge Bomb, Giga Drain, Earthquake and Growth all fighting for places (some moves obviously more viable than others). This fact prevents it from being unstoppable as it usually has to select what it misses out on so yea, as the definition is currently written, these pokemon are worth moving up to A rank.

Ferrothorn also deserves fair consideration based on the wording of the A Tier definition. It actually "walls" a fair bit of the OU metagame, and often does its job, setting up layers without too much trouble. Sure, its weak to Fire and Fighting attacks, and it prolly needs a spinblocker with it if you really want to keep its hazards, and rain support goes a long way in supporting it, but its pretty reliable, and I can usually count on it to set up 1-2 layers of hazards with no problem. It does suffer from severe competition from Deoxys-D to be sure, but its typing + hazards make it good enough for A tier imo.

Ninetales should be S rank but if already touched on that. I don't really care how shit the pokemon is, the support it brings (Perma Sun if the opponent lacks a weather inducer of their own to counter) is massive. The benefits are obvious and apparent to anyone who actually has faced a sun team. Sure, Ninetales is shit, but Drought is 100% S tier and therefore, Ninetales should be moved up there.

 

[Wizarus]

The problem is that Volcanora is always going to be walled by at least one, normally 2 pokemon on the team. That coupled with SR weakness and nerfed STAB in the most dominant weather means that it absolutely needs more support than a pokemon on A-Tier should need.

 

[Bent1ey]

Do you guys eve look at the descriptions?

S-teir: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame with little support, and Pokemon who can support other Pokemon with very little opportunity cost ("free turns"). Also the home of Pokemon who can easily perform multiple roles effectively, increasing their versatility and unpredictability. If the Pokemon in this rank have any flaws, those flaws are thoroughly mitigated by their substantial strengths. If there are suspects, they will come from this rank.

Politoed is an amazing team supporter, making things like Tornadus-T and Keldeo into monsters, as well as making Ferrothorn and Tentacruel into amazing walls. It is also a solid weather changer, able to switch into all the weather starts outside of Abomasnow with little to no worries. While politoed may not be an amazing pokemon all by itself, it can certainly provide the support needed to do its job. There is a reason its the second most used pokemon.

btw, you can't have a suspect above other suspects tier...

Again, I may have gone too far bumping Politoed up, but considering Genesect to be above the rest of the S tier is going to be pretty evident to everyone, so you might as well make it official.

Otherwise S is its place just because there isn't any higher.

@The brownie: Genesect is better than just about any other poke in the meta, but that doesn't make it invincible. If you're geared towards it of course you can deal with it, but the fact that people have to deal with Genesect invariably proves how much of a staple he is.

There is enough discussion about Genesect in other places so I'll better go into this thread's main topic.

I love Venusaur but I don't see him getting into A-Rank, not only it needs set up, but it's coverage it's rather mediocre with the Sleep Clause on. Decent pokemon, but it's not really sweeping through pokemon with a little set up (Sun), you still have to remove key players in order to run through your opponent in a decent capacity, and at any given point you could lose your weather so that option must remain open too.

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I support Venusaur for A-Rank because it can actually sweep a large portion of the metagame using its Growth set. Poison-type moves generally have poor coverage, but they are essential to complete the Grass-Fire coverage; they take the Fire and Dragon-types that this coverage miss out. With such coverage, there is almost nothing that can avoid being OHKOed or 2HKOed after a Growth boost, even if Venusaur runs a Timid nature. Think that the pink blobls can wall him? Try as they might, Venusaur will use them as setup fodder, grabbing more Growth boosts and then 2HKO both with Giga Drain.

It is hard to stop even with priority, as even a STAB Ice Shard from Mamoswine will not OHKO if Venusaur is at full health.

The only full stop to him is Heatran, wich is not even 2HKOed by a +6 Life Orb-boosted Giga Drain, and simply laughs at other attacks (except Earthquake, but by running Earthquake, Venusaur will create a large gap on its coverage, missing other important things at the cost of only taking its would-be counter). However, even Heatran is a shaky way to deal with Venusaur, as many of them are friends of a certain brown mole that can trap and OHKO Heatran.

Venusaur is almost unstoppable at +2 on sun. Another shaky way to deal with it is changing the weather to something other than sun, preferably rain, and then switch to something that can take one of its boosted attacks (predict well or die) and then KO him.

It perfectly fits on this description: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

As there are three things that it requires as support. First, Drought - Ninetales easily provide this. Second, remove Heatran - Dugtrio can easily do this and in fact, that's why it is at most sun teams, but there are also other ways, like Terrakion or a surprise Ground-type attack from one of your Fire-type partners. Third, remove the opponent's weather inducer not named Ninetales - None of them can take Giga Drain (except for Abomasnow, wich can't take Hidden Power Fire), but Venusaur doesn't like having its sweep interrupted because its speed has been cut by half.

Outside of this, Venusaur requires little support, and after a Growth boost, few things can stop him.

 

[flea]

Ferrothorn has one of the best defensive typings in the game, is pretty much a single-handed shutdown to any water type not named keldeo, has leech seed, power whip and gyro ball off a base 94 attack to make it so that there's about 1 pokemon I can think of off the top of my head (virizion) that can laugh at all three of those attacks.

Basically, I do not think that there is a single defensively-oriented pokemon in the tier that can wall as many pokemon as ferrothorn can while still having an offensive presence, avoid being setup fodder and set up spikes arguably as well as anything else in the game bar Deoxys-D. It can't do all 4 of those things at the same time, but really, that is a huge, huge "niche" for ferrothorn, and there's nothing else that can say that. It took some of the most important pokemon in DPP like Swampert, Suicune, Shaymin, and sent them straight to UU because they couldn't do jack to it or were straight up outclassed. Things that are completely walled by Ferrothorn simply can't survive in this metagame, it's just that good and ubiquitous. And I haven't even mentioned the prominence of rain, which only makes it better. Definite A-Tier pokemon.

EDIT: I suppose Celebi and Lucario also laugh at those 3 attacks. But nonetheless, my argument is still that Ferro IS kinda still the metagame. It's #3 in the new usage stats. Are that many people being deceived into using a B-tier pokemon or is it actually good? Hmmm.....

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Ferrothorn should be A, yes it is no longer as effective as it was in the past, but it is still hands down one of the most effective walls and spikes setters in this metagame. Sure Doexys-D is more effective on offensive teams, but on teams with any sort of defensive core, aka a balanced team, it is a much appreciated wall. Sure it can't take a Tornadus-T hurricane on a switch, but it can sure as heck take one and then check the bastard. Ferrothron's bulk in combination with its ability to check and even counter multiple threats is nothing to pass up.

 

[Electrolyte]

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently. Supporting Pokemon in this rank may give opponents free turns or cannot create free turns easily themselves, but can still do their job most of the time.

I guess it would be better for these discriptions to be a bit more detailed, as they do bring up a lot of controversy over their meanings but they'll do.

Maybe it's just me, but I have found Ferrothorn a lot less annoying in the past few weeks, due to the fact that nearly every released BW2 pokemon can trample all over it. PowerWhip-less versions are smothered by SubCM Keldeo, Genesect fucks all Ferrothorn, Tornadus-T 2HKO's, and Thundurus-T can set up and then KO with +4 Focus Blast, while being resistant to Gyro Ball and immune to Thunder wave. Landorus-T can't do as much, but it can still hit hard with EQ, and U-Turn to avoid Leech Seed. Because nearly every single team can't function without one of the above pokemon, there is always a counter to Ferrothorn. This strays from the idea that A tier 'Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame' a bit.

Ferrothorn is also set up bait for nearly every common user of Subsetup. Because Leech Seed is blocked by Subs and Gyro Ball has 8 PP, Ferrothorn can be pretty easily stalled to useless-ness. I'm an avid user of SubCM Jirachi, and I've seen multiple times how many teams get raped because their players think Ferrothorn can beat set up sweepers with Gyro Ball. While that may be true for, probably two thirds of the sweeping meta back in BW1, it's not true now anymore. New sets are being used that can beat Ferrothorn, and new pokemon are coming into the fray that can set up on it. Landorus-I, who used to have a bit of a problem struggling past rain-thorn, now has a 5-star Sheer Force set that totally blows Ferro away. The popularity of Techniloom is also giving Ferro the chills, and the famed FerroCent core is totally destroyed by it.

But it's not just Ferrothorn that's now being muscled past. If you'll look at the A and S tiers, you'll see that most of the pokemon there are offensive or have specific niches that separate them from opposing pokemon. As much as I hate to say it, defensive teams are getting harder to play with, especially since BW2 didn't really help stall that much.

On the bright side, Ferro is still used, it's still good with the right support. That's why it fits in the B tier.

 

[alexwolf]

Keep Volcarona in B Rank. Is it a deadly sweeper? Hell yeah! Is it easy to set-up? Hell no! Between SR that makes Volcarona unable to set-up against almost anything offensive, the fact that offensive teams are everywhere and Volcarona needs to be bulky in order to set-up, which means using a sun team, and the fact that Terrakion and Keldeo are everywhere, Volcarona just can't set up and sweep as easy as one would like to think. It requires too much support to be in A Rank.

 

[ginganinja]

PowerWhip-less versions are smothered by SubCM Keldeo, Genesect fucks all Ferrothorn, Tornadus-T 2HKO's, and Thundurus-T can set up and then KO with +4 HP Ice, while being resistant to Gyro Ball and immune to Thunder wave. Landorus-T can't do as much, but it can still hit hard with EQ, and U-Turn to avoid Leech Seed. Because nearly every single team can't function without one of the above pokemon, there is always a counter to Ferrothorn. This strays from the idea that A tier 'Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame' a bit.

Going to go through your list here. Firstly, most Ferrothorn run Power Whip, so you check most Keldeo pretty hard, Genesect doesn't really "fuck you", it has to flamethrower if it wants the kill, otherwise it U-Turns out, takes SR switching in, 12.5% from IB, and you can Leech Seed (since your slower) whatever he U-Turns into. If they have a grass type like Breloom, then fine, you survive the U-Turn, and set up a layer of spikes, and now Gensect is taking SR + 1 layer of spikes next time it switchs in. U-Turn is going around 40% ish from experience so you are still high enough to set up a second layer if you wish (with leech Seed extending this) so yea, you are kinda wrong here. Tornadus-T can 2KO sure, but it fears Thunder Wave (which will cripple it) or Gyro Ball (which also cripples it). I don't know how Thundurus-T is getting to +4 SpA, and not choosing to simply KO with Focus Blast. I assume you are thinking of Double Dance Thundurus-T, which is poor vs Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn can do whatever it likes in those 2 free turns. It can Leech Seed and stall you via protect, it can set up 2 layers of Spikes (its now done its job as I can bring in my revenge killer resulting in a net gain), or it can attack, taking advantage of the fact you prolly took 25% switching in, are running LO, and I can spam Gyro Ball / Power Whip for the 3KO or whatever it is.

Landorus-T gets spiked on, or stalled with leech Seed / Protect, I don't really consider it "trampling Ferrothorn" but idk, maybe you play shit Ferrothorn users. You don;'t even avoid leech Seed, since you are faster, so if you U-Turn, you took 12.5% from Iron Barbs, AND your switch in can get Leech Seeded sooooo. Your final point is that "every team has a counter for it" which is true, but that doesn't make it shit. Hippowdon, has to face the possibility that pretty much every member of a rain team can deal with it, but this doesn't make it any less useful, because (if your not an utter retard) your not bringing it in on something that 100% beats it (like im generally not bringing it in on Heatran), you are bringing it in on say, Starmie, or Politoed, heck, I bring Ferrothorn into Tyranitar (if I can predict the Tar switch) because it taking over 50% is big in winning the weather war, and its forced out after getting up SR, giving me a free layer.

I'm an avid user of SubCM Jirachi, and I've seen multiple times how many teams get raped because their players think Ferrothorn can beat set up sweepers with Gyro Ball

Ur facing dumb users of Ferrothorn then, also, why are you so keen to assume Ferrothorn only has Gyro Ball for its only attack? (Not that you beat Jirachi if you run Power Whip)

As much as I hate to say it, defensive teams are getting harder to play with, especially since BW2 didn't really help stall that much.

And yet, ironically, Hippowdon, an exceptionally common "stall mon" or "defensive team mon" is A tier, prolly because, you don't have to run stall to use it. Hippowdon is good on balanced teams (more hyper offensive teams can (but not always) suffer from a loss of momentum with it) and yes, Ferrothorn does not need to be used solely on a stall team for it to be good. It works fine on a balanced team, its does its job reliably, and unless someone can make a halfway decent post that convinces me to keep it in B tier, ill keep pushing it towarsd A tier.

Keep Volcarona in B Rank. Is it a deadly sweeper? Hell yeah! Is it easy to set-up? Hell no! Between SR that makes Volcarona unable to set-up against almost anything offensive, the fact that offensive teams are everywhere and Volcarona needs to be bulky in order to set-up, which means using a sun team, and the fact that Terrakion and Keldeo are everywhere, Volcarona just can't set up and sweep as easy as one would like to think. It requires too much support to be in A Rank.

The support you mentioned, is pretty much limited to "run a spinner" although its true that sun support really brings it out on Volcarona. If SR is not up, Volcarona can set up very easily, forcing out many pokemon weak to fire, or bug, heck, its a good switch in to Genesect if Rocks are not up, so thats nice. I like how you brought up Keldeo, which actually struggles vs Volcarona if sunlight is up, and yea, both Terrakion and Keldeo hate Giga Drain so your point is moot (also Sun teams run Dugtrio for Terrakion / Heatran anyway). iv actually used Volcarona a fair bit, and it does sweep a lot, it really should be A tier. (Heck, it prolly sweeps better than Latias anyway).

 

[alexwolf]

The support you mentioned, is pretty much limited to "run a spinner" although its true that sun support really brings it out on Volcarona. If SR is not up, Volcarona can set up very easily, forcing out many pokemon weak to fire, or bug, heck, its a good switch in to Genesect if Rocks are not up, so thats nice. I like how you brought up Keldeo, which actually struggles vs Volcarona if sunlight is up, and yea, both Terrakion and Keldeo hate Giga Drain so your point is moot (also Sun teams run Dugtrio for Terrakion / Heatran anyway). iv actually used Volcarona a fair bit, and it does sweep a lot, it really should be A tier. (Heck, it prolly sweeps better than Latias anyway).

Spin support and Sun support are essential to bring out her full power. Without sun she is just an ok sweeper, but she really struggles against Pokemon that resist her coverage, which you can get past in the sun with Fire Blast / Fiery Dance. Keldeo does just fine if rain is up, a very common scenerio, especially if you use Volcarona without Sun, and even in sand or clear skies scarf Keldeo is an ok check to Rona. Yeah i know that Volcarona has Giga Drain, but this doesn't mean that my point is moot at all. If you go with Giga Drain good luck getting walled by every dragon, Gyarados, Heatran and more. Point is that Volcarona struggles against some pretty popular mons, and needs a lot of support (yeah Ninetales and a spinner / Magic Bouncer is a lot of support).

And Latias isn't A rank just because she is a good sweeper, she is in there because she can wall so many things and sweep at the same time.

 

[ginganinja]

A Rank: Reserved for Pokemon who can sweep or wall significant portions of the metagame, but require some support or have some flaws that prevents them from doing this consistently

Im not saying its amazingly good, im saying that thanks to the obvious flaws (which I also pointed out in my post) its worthy in A rank. But, I really wanted to highlight this point below

(yeah Ninetales and a spinner / Magic Bouncer is a lot of support).

O.k so according to you, anything that needs the sun to sweep isn't A tier, something I highly doubt when Venusaur should be A Tier anyway. Volcarona isn't the only pokemon that enjoys spin support and a beneficial weather up (ill grant you that it needs it more than others) but in my experience, its pretty darn good at what it does, and 3 attack Volcarona is very underrated (FB / Bug Buzz / Giga Drain @ LO) can handle most dragons out there, use Giga Drain to heal off LO recoil, and use Dugtrio to get past Heatran.

Would be interested to hear your thoughts on Venusaur, tho judging from your current argument I guess you think its still B tier.

 

[alexwolf]

I am not sure about Venusaur tbh. I am leaning towards A rank because under the Sun he is a complete monster, but Politoed and Hippo are big roadblocks. But yeah i think that Venusaur should be A rank, because he can sweep easily if given the right support (sun), which is not that hard to provide.

Ginga i never said that sun alone is too much support to provide, but Rapid Spin + Sun is, that's all. This is one of the reasons that other very good pokemon that work amazing under Sun, such as Victini, Specs Rotom-H and Darmanitan are not in A rank. Under Sun and with SR off the field they are awesome pokes, but good luck keeping them under this enviroment.

 

[ginganinja]

I guess I am trying to determine whether we look at this stuff in a vacuum or not. Your standard sun team has sun, and a way to keep SR off the field, not because of volcarona, but because it keeps Ninetales alive for longer. Its not "a lot of support" is my point, especially when your standard rain team often carries a spinner (Tenta / Starmie) to offset the potential SR weakness of its key sweepers, and to diminish the effect of Deoxys-D. Venusaur for example, almost always has Sun + Spin support, simply because without either, it struggles to sweep (if it lacks sunlight, its sub par, if SR is up, Ninetales has a harder time winning the weather war thererby making it difficult to get sunlight up). Its highly possible I am looking at this too in depth, and a line needs to be drawn somewhere. Support prolly needs to be defined I guess, since genesect is amazing with Duggy support, Breloom is amazing with Gothitelle support and ugh.

Regardless, I don't think Moltres should be even C tier, its SR weak, and requires basically, Politoed, Starmie / Tenta, Tornadus-T and Dugtrio for partners. That is a fuckload of support (and the main issue with Volcarona) so its prolly D tier imo

 

[Shurtugal]

Moltres is horrible. When Ginga faced me on the ladder with it, he would have been better off with something else (like, say, Dragonite?) because all it did was play fodder that entire game. It's a big liability, it shouldn't even have a tier, but put it in like D (which I'm too lazy to see if you guys went so far as to make a D tier...) because Zappy can at least take SR decently / take hurricane (which not many pokes can do) / check Gene. Zappy is fine at C tier, not Moltres. Agreeing with Ginga when he says Moltres shouldn't even be C tier.


As for Venu, without LO, it has such weak power. You almost always have to run Growth for power, even if you run LO, and you have to run timid unless you want Terrak to lol revenge you with salac / scarf. Black Sludge Growth set makes me laugh; I don't even think Sludge Bomb can KO Latias at +2 without LO. You can't run HP Ice, since HP Fire is needed for it to do what it does best; check Gene (since tales will die fast). I just feel Venu is so limiting and weak, and if it didn't get a speed boost it would just flat out suck. It doesn't help that a lot of OU can revenge it at +0 (Torn-T says "bye venu" with Heat Wave or chances Hurricane; Jirachi lives HP Fire at +0, I think even with LO but I would have to calc....). You get my point. It kills offense, sure, but every good HO team packs a Venu counter (like Scarf'ed 108 / 110).

 

[Electrolyte]

It might be just because Ferro itself isn't as common anymore, but I have not seen Power Whip from a Ferrothorn in a long time. Since it's usually slapped on balanced / stall Rain teams, support from Ferrothorn is of course much more important than the ability to hit hard (as is with all support pokemon) Ferro's got enough 4MSS as it is; not running Gyro Ball is just not a good idea unless you run all support (which is weak to Taunt) or Power Whip to counter a certain foe. Of course you're going to run hazards as well, since that's one of Ferro's main selling points, and Spikes is pretty much assumed against all versions (except CB, which I also have yet to see at all) Leech Seed is pretty staple as well, since it's Ferro's main form of 'recovery' and adds to it's viability. That leaves one slot for Stealth Rock, Protect, Thunder Wave, or Power Whip- and even if Rocks are being handled by a team member, which is uncommon in Rain balanced, Protect and TWave are tough competition for Ferrothorn's moveslot. I certainly don't see Power Whip as often because of this- Gyro Ball is widely accepted as more effective, even if it's not so good, and Ferro loses a lot of support options if it wishes to delve that much into combat against set up. Due to the fact that Ferro often can not afford to run coverage apart from Gyro Ball, it is good set up bait. You really can't change that without subtracting from it's better support side. Even if Ferro DOES run Power Whip, that will make it set up bait for different pokemon, depending on which move you choose to drop.

You have a valid point Ginga, as the list of pokemon that can set up on Ferrothorn probably isn't as long as I made it seem in my post, but the list still exists and there are some pretty common and dangerous ones on there. B-Tier really isn't all that bad for Ferrothron to be in, imo, though that could definitely change with the release of Kyurem-B. It doesn't mean that Ferrothorn's not viable; it is, I agree with that. But has it improved? Has it gotten better from the transition? Has it gotten a new niche or new pokemon to counter and give itself a 'job'? For the most part, it's stayed relatively the same. Because the answer isn't as clear cut of a yes as it is for many A and S tier pokemon, I think B is where it should stay.

HP Ice was a typo, I meant Focus Blast and told myself ot to say HP Ice, but it came out anyway. :/

 

[Dark Fallen Angel]

I am not sure about Venusaur tbh. I am leaning towards A rank because under the Sun he is a complete monster, but Politoed and Hippo are big roadblocks. But yeah i think that Venusaur should be A rank, because he can sweep easily if given the right support (sun), which is not that hard to provide.

Ginga i never said that sun alone is too much support to provide, but Rapid Spin + Sun is, that's all. This is one of the reasons that other very good pokemon that work amazing under Sun, such as Victini, Specs Rotom-H and Darmanitan are not in A rank. Under Sun and with SR off the field they are awesome pokes, but good luck keeping them under this enviroment.

Politoed, Hippowdon, Tyranitar and Abomasnow all stop Venusaur's sweeping on its tracks. However, unless they use Choice Scarf (lol Scarf Hippowdon), they will be always outsped, and OHKOed by the apropriate move (Giga Drain for the former three, HP Fire for the latter - watch out for Ice Shard, however), they are simply too slow to try taking Venusaur 1 x 1 even outside sun and they lose due to type disadvantage. What they can do is change the weather to slow down Venusaur, so that they can switch to something that can beat it with its speed lowered. But you must predict well, as you don't want, for example, to switch your Tornadus-T on a +2 Sludge Bomb, even on rain. So the other weather starters are roadblocks, yes, but you must consider the above facts.

Moltres is horrible. When Ginga faced me on the ladder with it, he would have been better off with something else (like, say, Dragonite?) because all it did was play fodder that entire game. It's a big liability, it shouldn't even have a tier, but put it in like D (which I'm too lazy to see if you guys went so far as to make a D tier...) because Zappy can at least take SR decently / take hurricane (which not many pokes can do) / check Gene. Zappy is fine at C tier, not Moltres. Agreeing with Ginga when he says Moltres shouldn't even be C tier.


As for Venu, without LO, it has such weak power. You almost always have to run Growth for power, even if you run LO, and you have to run timid unless you want Terrak to lol revenge you with salac / scarf. Black Sludge Growth set makes me laugh; I don't even think Sludge Bomb can KO Latias at +2 without LO. You can't run HP Ice, since HP Fire is needed for it to do what it does best; check Gene (since tales will die fast). I just feel Venu is so limiting and weak, and if it didn't get a speed boost it would just flat out suck. It doesn't help that a lot of OU can revenge it at +0 (Torn-T says "bye venu" with Heat Wave or chances Hurricane; Jirachi lives HP Fire at +0, I think even with LO but I would have to calc....). You get my point. It kills offense, sure, but every good HO team packs a Venu counter (like Scarf'ed 108 / 110).

The best set, the set that Venusaur should be running, is Growth/Giga Drain/Sludge Bomb/HP Fire with 252 SpA/Spe, Timid and Life Orb. Any other set is just not as effective.

 

[Schpoonman]

Scarf 108s don't pass it any more, people have been saying that more and more Venusaur are running Timid, so whatever you use needs at least 569 speed, which would require a Scarfer with at least 125 base speed. Which, you know, is insane.

 

[StairFall]

Venusaur also survives CB Mamoswines ice shard with no investment if it's at full health, and the OHKO isn't guaranteed with rocks up. The thing is a monster and only really stopped by heatran, which is totally destroyed by most sun teams in recent play. I've been using trick room supporter Bronzong paired with LO mamo to handle it recently since all the weather starters are destroyed on the switch in losing the weather war.

 

[Asek]

OK since both of the premier special sun sweepers are being argued for A rank I thought I would chime in on my thoughts on both

Venusaur - If one of the 2 were to go A rank it would be Venu. Unfortunatly I feel this is a real borderline case, as it does require sun support to function at all, and depending on its set it needs extra support to sweep through the opposing team. If it runs the standard Special Growth Set of Sleep Powder / Growth / Giga Drain / HP [FIRE] it has 3 common walls to it in Heatran, Latios and Latias, and although they can be taken out by Sleep Powder and you can attempt to rack up more boost's to the point where your 2HKO'ing the 2 latter, or your taking out one of suns biggest enemies in the former, the chance that they're going to wake up is always there. Scizor, Mamoswine, Dragonite and Salamence can also take out venusaur although scizor and mamo require prior damage, not to mention that it requires the same support as ninetales in a way to rid itself of Tyranitar and to a lesser degree toed and hippowdon, who are otherwise switching in and stopping you. If you can supply the pokemon to do this, Venusaur is one of the most threatening pokemon in the metagame, and can sweep a vast majority of pokemon in the tier, but the support it requires to do so is fairly substantial (ninetales, way to get rid of said counters w/o having to rely on them staying asleep, way to get rid of opposing weather starters) so it overall fits the criteria of a B tier mon imo, excellent with a fair degree of support. I can definitely see where the A tier is coming from however, so I have no objections if it goes up

Volcarona - This is no where near A rank imo. For volca to truly shine it needs A) A form of weather in either Rain (Hurricane) or Sun (Epic STAB powah) B) Rapid Spin support, everyone knows losing 50% HP to rocks isn't nice at all! and then C) something to get rid of its counters. Scarf Terrakion and Scarf Landorus are key figures in bringing it down, the former being fairly common and the latter being used less as Sheer Force Landorus gains popularity. The bulky sun sweeper is also beaten by dragonite / salamence and Heatran, while offensive moth is beaten by certain pokemon depending on its coverage move, with the 2 dragons and Heatran each losing their capacity depending on whether Hidden Power [ROCK] or Hidden Power [GROUND] is used respectively (if giga drain all 3 beat you). Having 3 support mons around to get a certain pokemon to sweep is too much support for volcarona to be A rank, it's at home in B rank.

Also victini for B rank, it is one of the few physical sweepers sun possess, and STAB V-Create under sun is extremely difficult to switch into, and if it does something is either getting heavily crippled or getting straight KO'd. It should also be mentioned that the only opposing weather starter that can switch into victini is Hippowdon, as Politoed can't take Fusion bolt well, Ttar is smashed by Brick Break or otherwise dented by U-Turn and Abomasnow is destroyed by V-Create, so it is an awesome tool to win weather wars as well with good prediction. Even though Hippowdon can switch in, it can only do so once due to V-Creates immense power. It requires the same support as most other sun sweepers (tales, rapid spin/magic bounce) so it fits naturally into B tier

EDIT: Stoutland for B tier. Although I will never like it or use it myself, you merely have to supply sand and you have yourself a powerful revenge killer and a late game cleaner rolled into one. There isn't much that will be out speeding stoutland under sand, so it makes a prime revenge killer to numerous threats with its powerful STAB. Return is also a good STAB to spam once the resist's / immunes to it are gone, and of note is that Stoutland carries a move to get rid of these pokemon. Ghost's are hit by either crunch or pursuit, which isn't a great prediction war to take place in, but if the stout user wins your 1 mon closer to an easy spam time. Steels and Rocks are hit hard by Superpower, with the common physcial wall skarmory being dented heavily by Wild Charge, although stoutland is injuring itself in the process. Although its abilty to be revenged rather easily itself is rather disapointing by priority from the likes of Breloom and Scizor, it is still a very strong threat and one that is deserving of B rank.

 

[ginganinja]

It might be just because Ferro itself isn't as common anymore, but I have not seen Power Whip from a Ferrothorn in a long time.

Look, I don't want to call you out, or offend you or anything, but I don't know why you are arguing that Gyro Ball is more common than Power Whip on Ferrothorn. Nor is Ferrothorn "uncommon", its still sitting at 3rd on the smogon statictics, and in the top 10 on the OU suspect stats (which IMO are more reliable) both at around 17%. Thats pretty darn common.

Leech Seed 82.339%
Power Whip 69.506%
Stealth Rock 57.304%
Spikes 56.922%
Gyro Ball 38.908%
Protect 37.366%

Power Whip is more common, period.

But hey, maybe the OU statistics are incorrect, lets check the OU Suspect test results!

Power Whip 79.441%
Leech Seed 67.528%
Gyro Ball 61.386%
Spikes 58.751%

Nop, Power Whip is more common, a lot more common., in fact your basic set is Power Whip / Gyro Ball / Leech Seed / Spikes, which tallies to my experiences on the ladder. You don't have to pick either / or, you can run both T_T

It doesn't mean that Ferrothorn's not viable; it is, I agree with that. But has it improved? Has it gotten better from the transition? Has it gotten a new niche or new pokemon to counter and give itself a 'job'? For the most part, it's stayed relatively the same.

Who the heck cares? Nothing much changed for Dragonite, and yet its still accepted as A Tier, I don't really think Deoxys-D got anything new (correct me if im wrong) and its S tier etc etc. A pokemon doesn't need to "get anything new" for it to be A tier. Ferrothorn has always been good, and it still is good, despite "not getting anything new". Move it to A tier please.