Kangaskhanite Tiering Discussion [+Demographics Poll Added to OP]

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Long time lurker here. I always enjoy reading these type of threads, the counter arguments are usually hilarious (albeit annoying to see repeated over and over throughout). Everything has been said about Kangaskhan, so, I can say no more, other than I am all for the quick ban.
People explore their creativity here, and we end up educating them until they shut up and go away, yus. That's how it's been for... ages now.
 

lmitchell0012

Wi-Fi Blacklisted
It's not available at the moment, but Kanga also has access to knock off, so any sort of bulky eviolite user (such as dusclops) will be unable to switch in and cripple her (Will o Wisp) if she predicts correctly.
 
Whimsicott.
I'm not sure you thought that through.
Ability changing attacks are rarely if ever used in singles because they're rendered useless by the fact that the opponent can just switch out wasting the turn you used to actually use said move. Besides, how is Whimsicott coming in on anything that isnt PuP? Even if it does switch in after a team mate died or something, Whimsicott (or whatever you switch into) is going to eat a return afterwards, granted it'll be less powerful than a double +2 return.
 
It's not available at the moment, but Kanga also has access to knock off, so any sort of bulky eviolite user (such as dusclops) will be unable to switch in and cripple her (Will o Wisp) if she predicts correctly.
It's been disproven by testing in HG/SS/Plat that Kangaskhan can not get Knock Off via Move Tutor.

Not that it changes her dangerous qualities much.
 

Jukain

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TheMohZone said:
its 252/252+ now, just because of this thing, thats a fact (And it shoulda been before, its pointless to try tank special hits with eye.)
you run 252 hp with np / tr / shadow ball / hp fighting, max special attack modest. if you don't cofagrigus is garbage. it's good as a spinblocker/fighting check/mega kanga check/neat cleaner. trying to do something else is a waste of time, and quite frankly, stupid.

EVERYONE: stop trying to bring up obscure counters. not to be rude or anything, but no one cares. if you want to try and convince people, show how you can check it with common pokemon. if you can't reasonably/somewhat reliably, guess what, it's broken.
 
No need to be snarky. I understand they are completely different metas. However the above user was inferring that 252/252 HP/Def with positive nature is standard, and I was simply showing him the closest thing to an authority on spreads.
Again that was the authority for a completely different tier in a completely different gen. Same way Rotom-W was best a bulky SpD 'mon last gen and is now a bulky Def 'mon this gen due to physically offensive threats like Talonflame it can take on.
 
No need to be snarky. I understand they are completely different metas. However the above user was inferring that 252/252 HP/Def with positive nature is standard, and I was simply showing him the closest thing to an authority on spreads.
well just look at the calcs in this thread. this thread pretty much covers the meta, including Sableye. ya know because Kang IS the meta. so right now in X/Y OU its 252/252+ or bust.
 
Why can't you just null Kangaskhan's ability?

If I'm correct, that's what most people dislike about it.
Firstly, Smogon doesn't do complex bans like that. So it will just never happen.

Secondly, nulling mega-kang's ability solves the problem, but it's not how he was made by gamefreak. You can't just change a pokemon like that. Another person might argue that power-up punch is what is making mega-kang really broken, but you can't just change how kang was made and say, from now on kang can't learn Power-up Punch, problem solved. PS is a sim, so it won't do that.
 
This thread should just be locked up. Every argument worth saying, for either side, has been said. There is no need to repeat the arguments from 50+ pages ago to try and make a point. Personally this thread should just be locked and mega kangaskan should be quick banned considering how obviously broken it is and how the majority of people here want it to be banned.
 
you run 252 hp with np / tr / shadow ball / hp fighting, max special attack modest. if you don't cofagrigus is garbage. it's good as a spinblocker/fighting check/mega kanga check/neat cleaner. trying to do something else is a waste of time, and quite frankly, stupid.

EVERYONE: stop trying to bring up obscure counters. not to be rude or anything, but no one cares. if you want to try and convince people, show how you can check it with common pokemon. if you can't reasonably/somewhat reliably, guess what, it's broken.
first that was a quote for Sableye, not Cofag, second Cofag is garbage anyway, 3rd you need a 100% defensive spread with cofag to have a chance

you still don't have a chance.

it does have counters....a counter...a shaky counter but nobody bar scrubs is arguing its not broken.
 
Well, I don't know if M-Kanga should be banned or not, because of a few reasons. 1. M-Kanga's Defenses and Speed are decent, but it leaves it wide open to a few checks. 2. M-Kanga's ability is broken, because if M-Kanga gets off 3 Power-Up Punches, it'll have +6 Attack after 3 turns, so there's that. 3. M-Kanga already gets increased Attack upon Mega Evolving, so its Attack will be sky high after 3 Power-Up Punches. 4. Chesnaught with Black Belt is a major check to M-Kanga. Chesnaught is so Physically bulky that it can wall M-Kanga to a certain degree. Plus, if Chesnaught gets a chance to set up with Bulk Up and go for a Brick Break, along with STAB and Black Belt, M-Kanga will go down in 1-hit. So, in all, M-Kanga should not be moved to Ubers, because of major Fighting Type checks, like Chesnaught, Breloom, etc., and because of M-Kanga decent defenses and speed.
 

Storm Eagle

Banned deucer.
+2 252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Whimsicott: 259-306 (79.9 - 94.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
No Parental Bond. so no.


its 252/252+ now, just because of this thing, thats a fact (And it shoulda been before, its pointless to try tank special hits with eye.)
Probably looks like it, but I'm not trying to troll. I am just thinking of a counter to M-Khan. I know my ideas suck, but at least I try.

What about a HA Seismitoad? Have it know Endeavor, and let Mega Kangaskhan nearly kill it (I know Seismitoad has bulk, so it can take at most 95% damage), then use a priority move on it with the other pokemon, considering this is a double battle. Then you could heal it with another pokemon that knows surf.
 

Jukain

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first that was a quote for Sableye, not Cofag, second Cofag is garbage anyway, 3rd you need a 100% defensive spread with cofag to have a chance

you still don't have a chance.

it does have counters....a counter...a shaky counter but nobody bar scrubs is arguing its not broken.
cofag is not garbage if you actually use the set i posted. max defense, however, is trash.
 
Probably looks like it, but I'm not trying to troll. I am just thinking of a counter to M-Khan. I know my ideas suck, but at least I try.

What about a HA Seismitoad? Have it know Endeavor, and let Mega Kangaskhan nearly kill it (I know Seismitoad has bulk, so it can take at most 95% damage), then use a priority move on it with the other pokemon, considering this is a double battle. Then you could heal it with another pokemon that knows surf.
Where do you come from?
 
Well, I don't know if M-Kanga should be banned or not, because of a few reasons. 1. M-Kanga's Defenses and Speed are decent, but it leaves it wide open to a few checks. 2. M-Kanga's ability is broken, because if M-Kanga gets off 3 Power-Up Punches, it'll have +6 Attack after 3 turns, so there's that. 3. M-Kanga already gets increased Attack upon Mega Evolving, so its Attack will be sky high after 3 Power-Up Punches. 4. Chesnaught with Black Belt is a major check to M-Kanga. Chesnaught is so Physically bulky that it can wall M-Kanga to a certain degree. Plus, if Chesnaught gets a chance to set up with Bulk Up and go for a Brick Break, along with STAB and Black Belt, M-Kanga will go down in 1-hit. So, in all, M-Kanga should not be moved to Ubers, because of major Fighting Type checks, like Chesnaught, Breloom, etc., and because of M-Kanga decent defenses and speed.
While finally having a semi-reasonable argument for Mega-Kanga staying is nice you are going to need hard data to back those claims up. What move/nature/IV's does a Breloom need to be able to KO a Mega-Kanga for example.

Edit: Because after checking,

252+ Atk Choice Band Technician Breloom Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Kangaskhan: 324-384 (92.3 - 109.4%) -- 50% chance to OHKO

Not much of a check.
 
Well, I don't know if M-Kanga should be banned or not, because of a few reasons. 1. M-Kanga's Defenses and Speed are decent, but it leaves it wide open to a few checks. 2. M-Kanga's ability is broken, because if M-Kanga gets off 3 Power-Up Punches, it'll have +6 Attack after 3 turns, so there's that. 3. M-Kanga already gets increased Attack upon Mega Evolving, so its Attack will be sky high after 3 Power-Up Punches. 4. Chesnaught with Black Belt is a major check to M-Kanga. Chesnaught is so Physically bulky that it can wall M-Kanga to a certain degree. Plus, if Chesnaught gets a chance to set up with Bulk Up and go for a Brick Break, along with STAB and Black Belt, M-Kanga will go down in 1-hit. So, in all, M-Kanga should not be moved to Ubers, because of major Fighting Type checks, like Chesnaught, Breloom, etc., and because of M-Kanga decent defenses and speed.

+2 252+ Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Chesnaught: 334-396 (87.8 - 104.2%) -- 25% chance to OHKO


Also keep in mind that Chesnaught is going to probably end up switching in onto PUP, which lowers his chances of actually surviving in time to do anything to slightly slower than that of a snowball in hell.
 

lmitchell0012

Wi-Fi Blacklisted
Firstly, Smogon doesn't do complex bans like that. So it will just never happen.

Secondly, nulling mega-kang's ability solves the problem, but it's not how he was made by gamefreak. You can't just change a pokemon like that. Another person might argue that power-up punch is what is making mega-kang really broken, but you can't just change how kang was made and say, from now on kang can't learn Power-up Punch, problem solved. PS is a sim, so it won't do that.
Actually, I think smogon has done a complex ban in the past. Remember Drizzle+Swift Swim?
 
Actually, I think smogon has done a complex ban in the past. Remember Drizzle+Swift Swim?
Complex bans are avoided for a reason: it makes the metagame sloppy and messy when we do it. Look at one of ours only Complex Bans in Aldaron's Drizzle + SS suggestion! That ruined BW since Drizzle ended up dictating the next few suspects for like a year (Thundurus / Manaphy / Tornadus-T / Keldeo / etc.) and they were all found (except for Keldeo) broken because of the drizzle support. Smogon even admitted that Drizzle deserved suspect, but because BW had pretty much ended, that we would end up keeping Drizzle. (Drizzle also has +6 evasion in BW so...)

So the one time we did it we messed the entire metagame up: no more complex bans please.

Banning a move + Pokemon is downright retarded: think of the effects it would have on the metagame and suspect testing in general. It would be a catastrophe.
 
Actually, I think smogon has done a complex ban in the past. Remember Drizzle+Swift Swim?
The only reason Drizzle+Swift Swim was banned was because there was literally no other way to make the metagame better. It was either Ban Drizzle, Ban Swift Swim, or the combination. Politoed by itself was not broken, and If Swift Swim was banned it would neuter a crap ton of mons that otherwise weren't broken. So Drizzle+Swift Swim ban was the best option.
 
Well, I don't know if M-Kanga should be banned or not, because of a few reasons. 1. M-Kanga's Defenses and Speed are decent, but it leaves it wide open to a few checks. 2. M-Kanga's ability is broken, because if M-Kanga gets off 3 Power-Up Punches, it'll have +6 Attack after 3 turns, so there's that. 3. M-Kanga already gets increased Attack upon Mega Evolving, so its Attack will be sky high after 3 Power-Up Punches. 4. Chesnaught with Black Belt is a major check to M-Kanga. Chesnaught is so Physically bulky that it can wall M-Kanga to a certain degree. Plus, if Chesnaught gets a chance to set up with Bulk Up and go for a Brick Break, along with STAB and Black Belt, M-Kanga will go down in 1-hit. So, in all, M-Kanga should not be moved to Ubers, because of major Fighting Type checks, like Chesnaught, Breloom, etc., and because of M-Kanga decent defenses and speed.
No, if Skarmory is 2 shoted Chesnaught, as has been proven, is one shotted. thats that.
Probably looks like it, but I'm not trying to troll. I am just thinking of a counter to M-Khan. I know my ideas suck, but at least I try.

What about a HA Seismitoad? Have it know Endeavor, and let Mega Kangaskhan nearly kill it (I know Seismitoad has bulk, so it can take at most 95% damage), then use a priority move on it with the other pokemon, considering this is a double battle. Then you could heal it with another pokemon that knows surf.
See above. it doesn't have a chance

cofag is not garbage if you actually use the set i posted. max defense, however, is trash.
Cofag was NEVER good in OU, not unless you get blessed in getting it in, its even worse no. and its not checking Kanga like that.

252 Atk Parental Bond Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 186-219 (58.1 - 68.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 Atk Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Cofagrigus: 124-146 (38.7 - 45.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

so its dead anyway. the only Reason Cofag sees use in this OU, a priority heavy OU where TR is near useless, is to check kanga and without max defenses it won't do that. you can argue Cofag can run that set but its irrelevant to this discussion
(and its still outclassed anyway. but thats not the point)
 
4 year lurker, new account. Mega Kanga has made me quit playing Pokebank OU and OU on the sim, as well as making me quit in game Wifi Battling. As someone who loves using gimmicks, NU Pokemon, and alternate strategies such as TR in OU, Mega Kanga has made it impossible to do that. If you don't put at least two Pokemon on your team who are 100% dedicated to Mega Kanga, it sweeps you. And even Pokemon dedicated to checking Mega Kanga, are simply semi-reliable checks and not counters. The two prime examples people like to point to are Rockey Helmet Ferrothorn and Prankster WoW Sableye. Might I remind you that after Pokebank is released, Kanga gains access to Fire Punch for a clean OHKO, and Drain Punch to restore all the health that it has lost from Iron Barbs + Rocky Helmet. And for Sableye, take a look at this.

+2 252+ Atk Mega Kangaskhan Crunch vs. 252 HP / 120 Def Sableye: 204-240 (67.1 - 78.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
This means that Sableye cannot switch in on Mega Kanga reliably, hence almost always, something has to be foddered in order to get the burn onto Mega Kanga. As well, after the WoW Burn, which don't forget has a high chance of missing, it's still a guaranteed chance to 2HKO with Crunch. This means that Sableye has to run Recover in order to be useful against Mega Kanga, it has to run 2 specific moves in order to be ALMOST useful, seeing as Burn can be healed easily from Heal Bell, Aromatherapy, and other such moves. Now do you see what I'm talking about when I say Mega Kanga kills a teams creativity and limits player's ability to have fun in the current meta?

Also: Screenie of me reaching the 1900's as proof I am no noob.
Proof of ladder rating: http://prntscr.com/20dgrk

EDIT: Forgot about EQ, which does not make contact ergo negating Mummy, Iron Barbs, Flame Body, and Rocky Helmet. Also changed Sableye to the correct EV spread.
If you switch Sableye into Khan as soon as it appears and mega evolves, they can't get a +2 attack. Sableye can switch into any of Khan's attacks and stall it out with Wisp+Recover.

Which is why people would just switch out to Heatran or Chandelure or something.
 
.........

..........

..........

I have just been rendered speechless.

Okay i'll humour you. Name one user of those moves who can take a hit or even outspeed.
Galvantula with Gastro Acid, Jumpluff with Worry Seed, and Alakazam with Skill Swap. Also, those with Entrainment that can outspeed Mega Kang are Durant, Dedenne, Pyroar, and Hawlucha.
 
Galvantula with Gastro Acid, Jumpluff with Worry Seed, and Alakazam with Skill Swap. Also, those with Entrainment that can outspeed Mega Kang are Durant, Dedenne, Pyroar, and Hawlucha.
If you are using an Alakazam to "Counter" Mega-Kangaskan it better be Mega-zam to trace Parental Bond and hit back. Because even without Parental Bond Alakazam just dies.
 
Galvantula with Gastro Acid, Jumpluff with Worry Seed, and Alakazam with Skill Swap. Also, those with Entrainment that can outspeed Mega Kang are Durant, Dedenne, Pyroar, and Hawlucha.
So you take away their ability, and then they switch out to get it back because it's not a permanent effect. Also, nothing in that list would appreciate a STAB Return, even without parental bond or any boosts, so they're likely gone (unless they tried to use Sucker Punch).

Then what? They'll just bring it back out.
 
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