OU CCAT: Zoroark [See Post #663]

Virizion (Swords Dance)

Pocket and I had a discussion and we decided with, quite frankly, the massive amount of votes on this pokemon, which far exceed anything else, further voting was futile. Therefore our winner is...

HAXORUS (non choiced)



Im not sure whether we should finalise the actual moveset now or wait till the teammates have all been picked so ill consult with Pocket. In the meantime, I would like us all to look at the offensive teams we have listed. Running such an offensive team, we need to ensure that pokemon such as Volcarona, DD Gyarados / Dragonite / Haxorus, chlorophyll sweepers, Scizor, Shell Smash Cloyster and SD Lucario are all managed by this team. In particular, I would really like us to remember Scizor, which royally screwed with CCAT 1 last time (among other things), and resulted in 50% of the team being changed, something I still consider to be unacceptable. Therefore, this stage of the teammate selection will focus on finding offensive pivots / revenge killers that can deal with these threats, while still working together (either offensively or defensively) with Haxorus and Zoroark.

Refer to our Team Checklist and also to the list below which contains a few of the teams from our Team Checklist which are offensive in nature.

Wreck and Destroy
Nuclear Warfare
Blood Alliance
Art of Ruin
Sceptile returns to OU
Enter the Sandman
[BW-OU] French Orgy with Belzebuth

There are a lot of threats to cover but don't panic and start suggesting walls like Chansey to "beat all the special attackers" or something, we are a community, I am sure that between 6 pokemon we can handle 90% of the metagame with no problems. Also we are getting to the stage where we might be able to take two of the highest ranking nominations into our team, Pocket and myself need to discuss this further. Regardless, thanks to everyone who voted / nominated so far, can we get some more high quality nominations / discussions this teammate round too?

Make sure when you're making a nomination to disclose the full moveset. You may suggest more than 1 partner, but make sure to clarify whether these partners are meant to be voted together or separately.

EDIT: Pocket sux

Just tossing out an idea - what about the good old Choiced Rotom-W? He can come in on a lot of attacks, serves a revenge killer, and with Volt Switch keeps momentum in our favor. Alternatively, ScarfRachi - has the excellent steel typing, can revenge kill, and is generally a strong ovvensive pivot.

inb4 someone nominates magnezone and completely removes the point of even having zoroark

I think the best way to go about handling stuff like Gyarados / Volcarona / Cloyster etc is just not to give them set-up opportunities at all, and as such I think avoiding Choice items altogether is the best course of action. As soon as you throw a Choice Scarf Pokemon on a team, you patch-up one weakness but make the team far more susceptible to a load of other threats that can easily set-up on the Choice-locked move.

Basically, I'm gonna nominate some Pokemon that pack powerful priority attacks that can help revenge some of the outlined threats without being set-up fodder for another sweeper afterwards.


Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 248 HP / 252 Atk / 8 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Bullet Punch
- Bug Bite / Quick Attack
- Superpower / Quick Attack

Pretty standard SD Scizor. Helps to revenge-kill Outrage-locked Dragons, Terrakion and weakened chlorophyll sweepers. Appreciates Zoroark removing Skarmory, but can severely dent it with +2 Superpowers to help Haxorus break through later if Zoroark is unsuccessful at baiting it in. Faster EV spread can obviously be used to outspeed stuff like SDef Tran (or at least those not running 160 Spd EVs). Quick Attack could be used over Bug Bite or Superpower as well to catch Volcarona and Gyarados by surprise.


Dragonite @ Lum Berry
Trait: Multiscale
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Dragon Dance
- Outrage
- Fire Punch / Earthquake
- ExtremeSpeed

Hyper Offense's best weapon against Chlorophyll sweepers and Volcarona. Lum allows it to set-up on stuff like Will-o Ninetales and Sleep Powder Venusaur pretty easily and pull off a sweep with powerful ExtremeSpeeds.


Lucario @ Life Orb
Trait: Inner Focus
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Swords Dance
- Close Combat
- ExtremeSpeed
- Bullet Punch

Standard Lucario. Between ExtremeSpeed and Bullet Punch, Lucario can revenge a plethora of frail offensive Pokemon who cause Haxorus and Zoroark problems. Jolly Ice Punch could be used instead for whichever one of the RMTs has Gliscor (I think its Delko's one, i can't remember).

EDIT: Scizor + Dragonite work well together, but for the sake of simplicity, I'll say these are to be voted on separately.

Heatran @ Air Balloon
Nature: Modest/Timid
Ability: Flash Fire
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4SpD
- Fire Blast
- Earth Power
- Dragon Pulse
- Hidden Power Grass / Stealth Rock

With its fantastic combination of resistances and power Heatran is a blessing for a hyper offense team. Besides manhandling sun teams, it checks Scizor and most Dragon Dancers pretty nicely. I like Dragon Pulse on it to hit Haxorus and the Latis harder than HP Ice does. Dragonite is 2HKO'd by both anyway IIRC. It also lets us run HP Grass for Gastrodon/Quagsire.

That being said, I'm too tired right now to go over the team check list.

I think the best way to go about handling stuff like Gyarados / Volcarona / Cloyster etc is just not to give them set-up opportunities at all, and as such I think avoiding Choice items altogether is the best course of action. As soon as you throw a Choice Scarf Pokemon on a team, you patch-up one weakness but make the team far more susceptible to a load of other threats that can easily set-up on the Choice-locked move.

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This is half true and I like the idea, however it DOES limit our options. For example, Scizor is harder to use since Gyarados can switch in and sweep (and with no revenger we pretty much lose) Volcarona (I think) can tank a Dark Pulse from Zoroark and set up Quiver Dance, Multi Scale Dragonite can set up Zoroark with no problems, and can still tank a BP from Scizor no problems (I think your doing around 60% ish from experience if Multi Scale isn't up). So while I like the idea, I actually do think we need a dedicated revenger somewhere as its really nice to have that insurance.

Pocket will remember using Scarf Terrakion to great effect in CCAT #1 which filled a large number of holes in the team, and acted as a safety net. Personally, 90% of my most effective teams have a revenge killer (like say, Nuclear Warfare) so personally, I prefer us adopting a policy of, "preventing set up opportunities while having a revenge killer if shit hits the fan to bail ourselves out." I just think that with a good numbeof OU sweepers being able to boost there speed, and not worrying about priority too much, our team will fall apart when something gets a boost (and remember the team is available to everyone which makes it easy to get that boost). Just something to consider I guess

Okay, here are the offensive threats that can give this pair some trouble - just for reference.

Moratagua's Wreck and Destroy

• DD Dragonite
• LO Infernape
• SubDisable Gengar

Once DD Nite sets up DD on Zoroark, it's game over. Scizor can revenge bullet punch both of them. LO Infernape and Gengar are both faster and can take both of them out.

ginganinja's Nuclear Warfare

• SD Virizion
• Moxie ScarfMence
• CB Nite

YoUserName's Bloody Alliance

• DD Haxorus
• 2x Boost Terrakion
• Shell Smash Cloyster
• SD Scizor

Haxorus survives a LO Dark Pulse even after SR (73-86%) and proceed to set up DD and sweep. Terrakion is naturally faster than both and packs big guns. Cloyster can carry Focus Sash or take a hit from Haxorus to set up Shell Smash and sweep. Scizor's Bullet Punch can easily 2-shot Haxorus and one-shot Zoroark (the latter after entry hazards).

BKC's Rain Offense

• LO Starmie
• Specs Tornadus

Texas Cloverleaf's Rain Offense

• Sub DD Gyarados

Sets up Dragon Dance on Zoroark, and it's game over.

ITSU's Sand Offense

• CM Latias
• Sub Landorus

CM Latias can set some CMs on Zoroark and proceed to sweep. Landorus demolishes Haxorus with Sand Force EQ, while Zoroark cannot dish hard enough damage (61-71% with Dark Pulse) to take it out.

Mortagua's Enter the Sandman

• LO Latias
• CB Terrakion

Grimm70's Sun Offense

• Chlorophyll Venusaur
• QD Volcarona

Although the particular Venusaur used by Grimm may not pose as much of a threat, the more offensive variants with Growth and Life Orb can sleep something and then sweep with Growth-boosted SolarBeams. QD Volcarona easily sets up on Zoroark and proceed to sweep.

Delko's Christmashttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3458509

• BU Conkeldurr
• Scarf Kyurem

BU Conkeldurr can set up on Zoroark to set up Bulk Up and sweep. Although, Delko's Kyurem is Sub + 3 Atks, we can very well face a Scarf Kyurem, which can easily take both mons out.

Expert Physic's Speedy Offensehttp://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3462426

• Sharpedo
• Work Up Virizion

Sharpedo uses Protect and can pick apart Haxorus and Virizion. Virizion can nab a +1 Work Up on Zoroark's Flamethrower, and OHKO Haxorus with HP Ice and Zoroark with Close Combat

Agreeing with Penguin-X, that looks like a nice catch all core, though I have a suggestion. Maybe we could use bulky SD Scizor with LO?
Still does the same job, only with Roost somewhere over a move.
Sets up WAY easier on locked Outrages.
Again, a wild idea.

As for the weather issue, maybe we could use RD Kingdra?
Wishful thinking aside, DDLumnite is the best answer HO has against Sun.
Not much else to say, moving on.

Finally, is going on the team. No, I'm not joking, it is. Double Priority Lucario is Offense's worst nightmare...besides TR Rank. Too bad I overused it (Not pun intended) prior to this, so it might not surprise as much. It also adores the idea of something like Jellicent being removed.

I kinda wanted to post these pokes, so I can't really nominate anything...>.<

EDIT:Wow, so many things that Zoroark is set up bait for?
O.o

i suggest.... two things. they will solve some of the problems we have so far with set up sweepers. first of all, a sharpedo.

we can either go mixed:

sharpedo@life orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EV: 148 Atk 252 Sp. atk 108 Spd
Nature: Rash
-protect
-hydro pump
-ice beam
-crunch

or for more power against volcarona: fully physical

sharpedo@life orb
Ability: Speed Boost
EV: 252 Atk 4 Def 252 Spd
Nature: Adamant
-protect
-waterfall
-crunch
-ice fang

now. you guys might be wondering... why sharpedo?
first of all, he is my favorite pokemon to use. but who cares? more importantly, it allows us to revenge kill the things we have trouble with right now such as volcarona and dragonite. another thing is that with protect, volcarona and dragonite will be tempted to go for another boost to outspeed sharpedo while the shark protects. this adds in another mindgame with zoroark on the field, as zoroark is able to disguise itself as sharpedo. i prefer the physical set because as zororark disguised as sharpedo he can OHKO all of its counters like skarmory and more importantly, ferrothorn.

another suggestion is an obvious one, and that is scarf terakion. (no way)

Terrakion@Choice scarf
Ability: justified
EV: 252 Atk 4 Def 252 Spd
nature: jolly
-close combat
-stone edge
-x scissor
-earthquake

pretty straightforward, same reasons as sharpedo pretty much

this adds in another mindgame with zoroark on the field, as zoroark is able to disguise itself as sharpedo.

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err......... how?

That said, I very much agree with Scarf Terrakion, its a solid revenge killer than deals with a fair amount of things on that list and can is 'o.k' at working as an illusion partner with Zoroark

I think Scizor is almost a necessity to check a large number of threats with its powerful Bullet Punch. Threats that Scizor cannot hurt, namely Grimm's Volcarona and I guess Texas Cloverleaf's Gyarados, can be dealt by Dragonite. Scizor paired with Volcarona / Gyarados check is ideal, imo.

I'm personally not a fan of Scarf Terrakion, since I'd much rather use SD / CB Terrakion to facilitate the team's offense. Scarf Terrakion is simply too easily walled and exploitable. If we were to use a Scarfer, I'd much rather use Scarf Landorus / Scarf Mienshao / Scarf Infernape, which all have access to U-turn.

Scarf Terrakion is simply too easily walled and exploitable. If we were to use a Scarfer, I'd much rather use Scarf Landorus / Scarf Mienshao / Scarf Infernape, which all have access to U-turn.

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Can you explain this a little more? I get, that U-Turn is cool on a scarfer and all that jazz, but I dislike the "easily walled" when Terrakion is arguably harder to wall than something like Meinshao which struggles against like any ghost, or Landorus which struggles against Rotom W / Skarm / Gliscor (yea I know it has HP Ice but scarf Landorus usually cannot risk it) and stuff like that. Personally, I like the fact that Terrakion beats most Volcarona out there, while Landorus cannot really switch into Volcarona, and loses if it gets to +2 but I guess thats down to personal opinion.

Thanks for the list Pocket, I really appreciate it in making a nomination. It also made me realize the usefullness of the team checklist.


Suicune @ Water Gem
Trait: Pressure
EVs: 76 HP / 216 SAtk / 216 Spd
Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
- Hydro Pump
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Calm Mind / Tailwind

Pretty unorthodox set, but it might be worth a try. Suicune has pretty damn good bulk, with 100 / 115 / 115 defenses, which lets it tank a hit from pretty much anything without a powerful super effective STAB move. It can then retaliate with the appropriate move which with its coverage usually can OHKO most sweepers. Suicune isn't poor offensively either; with Calm Mind, cool coverage, and nice Speed and Special Attack it can the lay the hurt on unprepared teams. It also functions very well as a Zoroark partner; it is neutral to Stealth Rock, takes damage from Spikes and Toxic Spikes, and is hit by sandstorm and hail. They also synergize well; as Suicune's number 1 counter, Ferrothorn, can be lured out and taken down with Zoroark whether it disguises as Haxorus or Suicune. After Ferrothorn is down, most teams struggle to take on Suicune. Water Gem also helps disguising; Leftovers can be used for survivability but it blows the cover, while Life Orb really hurts Suicune's good bulk. Water Gem provides a welcome boost to Suicune's STAB move which lets it OHKO Volcarona after a Quiver Dance, and also doesn't show until Suicune attacks. The Speed EVs are to outspeed Gyarados and Dragonite, the Special Attack EVs KO Volcarona after a Quiver Dance, and the rest are put in HP for maximum bulk.

Edit: Tailwind could also be a cool option over Calm Mind as PenguinX said, this also lets it support the team and possibly lets the rest of the team revenge kill something fast, or attempt a sweep.

Sorry, ginganinja, I should have re-phrased that Scarfers in general are weak and exploitable, and at least having U-turn minimizes this weakness a bit.

Innovative set, Tomahawk! You are truly in the spirit of CCAT, suggesting some really creative moveset! It has amazing bulk to tank even a +1 Bug Buzz with relative ease, while inflicting 75-88% to a +1 Offensive Volcarona in the sun (assuming Water Gem)! HP Ele is also a solid OHKO on offensive Gyarados :d. Nice find!

EDIT: Actually, Suicune only does 50-59% after a QD, so we would need something else to check Volcarona. It's still a cool mon to consider, though :d

Pocket unless im calculating wrong im not getting those numbers when using honkos calculator. Just to confirm its +0 Suicune (since its not really a counter if it has to CM first since VOlc wins then iirc) vs +1 Volcarona. Suicune tanks the Bug Buzz and then cripples back with Hydro pump. This is all under sunlight. Im not missing anything right?

I think Tailwind could be an interesting option in place of Calm Mind there too. Even with a Modest nature and all that investment, +1 Hidden Power [Electric]s are still really weak without a boosting item and I can't see Calm Mind Suicune doing too much damage to current metagame teams even if Zoroark gets rid of any Ferrothorns (M Dragon's team has Chansey and Toxic Spikes, CM Suicune is kind of dead weight against Grimm's Sun team, and without Leftovers it doesn't really have the survivability vs teams like BKC's offensive rain). Tailwind on the other hand allows Suicune to give its teammates a speed boost to help revenge-kill a threat that it couldn't OHKO otherwise, such as Grimm's Volcarona (sun), Delko's Scarf Kyurem, ITSU's CM Latias etc

Guys Tomahawk never said anything about Sun. Water Gem Hydro Pump does 84.09 - 99.19% to 240 HP, +1 Rona, the bulkiest out there, and this is what he meant. 0 HP variants lose a minimum of 100%, at +1 from HP, while Suicune can deal 50-60% to offensive Rona, at +1, in sun, and can do nothing against bulky Volcarona in sun. All that +1 obviously go to Rona's SpD and not to Suicune's SpA.

So Suicune can handle any Volcarona except bulky QD Rona in sun, which unfortunately is the most popular, but still his set offers some power, good synergy and tankyness to check most threats that could set-up on our other 2 pokes. Good job Toma!

Guys Tomahawk never said anything about Sun. Water Gem Hydro Pump does 84.09 - 99.19% to 240 HP, +1 Rona, the bulkiest out there, and this is what he meant. 0 HP variants lose a minimum of 100%, at +1 from HP, while Suicune can deal 50-60% to offensive Rona, at +1, in sun, and can do nothing against bulky Volcarona in sun. All that +1 obviously go to Rona's SpD and not to Suicune's SpA.

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Just nitpicking but there IS a reason everyone is mentioning Sun. Volcarona has a large amount of usage on sun teams, a small amount of usage on rain teams, and an even smaller amount of usuage on SAND teams. Looking at Volcarona on the Team Checklist (which both Pocket and I suggested you all bear in mind) you will notice that Volacaona is present on a sun team. The problem, with relying on Suicune, is that it flat out loses in Sun to Volcarona which means that we need a SECONDARY Volcarona check to revenge after Suicune fails to KO, this check would also need to KO Volcarona at 100% in case it was morning glory which easily wins. its also worth noting that Sub Volcarona is also a bitch as it Quiver Dances, then subs using up water gem, then can Quiver or Sub again, and not really give a shit and eventually win with Bug Buzz. Regardless, we would need a pokemon that can deal with a 100% Volcarona (if it was Morning Glory) which therefore makes Suicune less useful and in that case we might as well use something else.

Please not that I am NOT trashing the set as a whole, I think its very innovative and will prolly end up using it on one of my teams. I am just pointing out, that as a Volcarona counter, its not as good as it could be, for our team. Saying that "oh it wins outside if sun" is pointless when most volcarona ARE used in sunlight.

As a general note, please factor in a beneficial weather if certain pokemon are often used under weather, when trying to counter something. I am not getting at anyone, or pointing fingures, im just saying that when we are talking about countering Sub Landorus (make sure you calculate sand and therefore Sand Force) or revenging Venusaur with HP Fire Scarf Rotom (since venu is used on sun teams it outspeeds and Kos you) as it actually helps is counter / check these pokemon better, and therefore works toward making a better team overall.

My apologies if this post sounds harsh or too overbearing its not my intention!

EDIT: Also big BIG, fan of Tailwind Suicune, its awesome :)

ginganinja said:

Just nitpicking but there IS a reason everyone is mentioning Sun. Volcarona has a large amount of usage on sun teams, a small amount of usage on rain teams, and an even smaller amount of usuage on SAND teams. Looking at Volcarona on the Team Checklist (which both Pocket and I suggested you all bear in mind) you will notice that Volacaona is present on a sun team. The problem, with relying on Suicune, is that it flat out loses in Sun to Volcarona which means that we need a SECONDARY Volcarona check to revenge after Suicune fails to KO, this check would also need to KO Volcarona at 100% in case it was morning glory which easily wins. its also worth noting that Sub Volcarona is also a bitch as it Quiver Dances, then subs using up water gem, then can Quiver or Sub again, and not really give a shit and eventually win with Bug Buzz. Regardless, we would need a pokemon that can deal with a 100% Volcarona (if it was Morning Glory) which therefore makes Suicune less useful and in that case we might as well use something else.

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That's why i mentiond in my post how, usually we cannot depend on Suicune to check Rona, as usually he is found or Sun teams and is a bulky variant, but Suicune is a good choice regardless for checking many other threats that can set-up on our other 2 mons.

About Tailwind, maybe we could try the same set that Tomahawk presented, but with Tailwind insteaf of HP Electric. This way Suicune will act somewhat as a double dancer, and will give us a bulky hard hitter that can also help his team kill the dangerous threat if it can't do it alone with the use of Tailwind.

I am going to make another nomination:

Scizor @ Life Orb
Trait: Technician
EVs: 152 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 100 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Bullet Punch
- U-turn
- Superpower
- Roost

This set is taken straight from the OU analyses in the C&C forums. If you want any explanation about the EVs you can find it here.

This Scizor has awesome power even without CB, doing ~49% to offensive Dnite(Wreck and Destroy), ~55.5% to Mence(Nuclear Warfare), ~62% to neutral natured Virizion and ~92.5% at -1 (Nuclear Warfare), ~68.5% to negative natured Virizion and ~103 at -1(Speedy Assault), ~87.5% at Gengar(Wreck and Destroy), ~53.5% to 88 HP Haxorus (Blood Alliance), ~52.5% to Landorus(Out with the old, in with the new / Speedy Assault), ~68% to Tornadus (Art of Ruin), ~77% to Sceptile (Sceptile's Return), sure OHKO on any Terrakion (Enter the Sandman), ~59% to Venusaur (French Orgy with Belzebuth),and finally ~54% to Sharpedo (Speedy Assault).

These threats are important because they are the most problematic offensive threats from the team checklist for our Haxorus and Zoroark, meaning that they can either outspeed and ohko both, or ohko one and 2hko the other, or that they can take a hit from one of our 2 pokes and then proceed to set-up and ohko both our pokes from there. And here comes Scizor. Scizor makes sure that almost none of those threats will sweep us, as most of those pokes all fail after a BP from Scizor and a hit from the poke which they set-up on (Zoroark mostly as Haxorus is not set-up bait for any of those pokes).

Why not CB or SD you ask? CB is a no 'cause we don't want to give free set-up opportunity to anything, as we are using an offensive team, which generally likes to have momentum and dislikes choiced mons.

I prefer this set over the LO one for reasons. First of all this Scizor is much less prone to entry hazards and LO damage as it has Roost, meaning that if played correctly, it can stay healthy throughout the whole match and provide his awesome priority. What's more is that Scizor can act as a perfect scout and momentum gainer with U-turn early game, which is something all offensive teams appreciate.
Finally this Scizor has more bulk and immediate power than SD Scizor (Jolly is almost always the best nature for offensive SD), which sometimes matters a lot. For example standard Starmie does 79.93 - 94.04% with HP to this Scizor which means that we have a 56.25% chance to survive after SR and OHKO with U-turn (even bigger chance if you factor in accuracy of HP), while offensive Scizor loses 90.74% min, which is a sure ohko after SR(or 80% of the time if you factor in accuracy).

I'd much rather get up a Swords Dance and turn all those 2HKOs into OHKOs than have Roost to recover off hazard damage. A well-built and well-played offensive team shouldn't really be giving your opponent any chances to get-up multiple layers of hazards anyway, since they'll constantly be having to deal with the +2 Attack Haxorus / +2 Atk Sub Terrakion / +2 Atk Scizor right in front of them to even consider Spiking with Skarmory or Ferrothorn.

U-Turn is fun and definitely an interesting option that i'll slash on my set too, but I feel Roost just highlights everything of what true Hyper Offense teams shouldn't be about. I'll admit that Roost certainly has utility on slower-paced teams but I'd just rather get an Attack boost and pave the way for Haxorus / Lucario / Virizion / Dragonite / Gyarados / whatever to sweep than just spend all game taking weak +0 jabs at frail Pokemon.

Cannot believe that no one has mentioned Breloom at any stage in this process. Two of the biggest threats to any Breloom set, Espeon and Gliscor, are handled by Zoroark, allowing Breloom to go about it's business unhindered.

PenguinX said:

I'd much rather get up a Swords Dance and turn all those 2HKOs into OHKOs than have Roost to recover off hazard damage. A well-built and well-played offensive team shouldn't really be giving your opponent any chances to get-up multiple layers of hazards anyway, since they'll constantly be having to deal with the +2 Attack Haxorus / +2 Atk Sub Terrakion / +2 Atk Scizor right in front of them to even consider Spiking with Skarmory or Ferrothorn.

U-Turn is fun and definitely an interesting option that i'll slash on my set too, but I feel Roost just highlights everything of what true Hyper Offense teams shouldn't be about. I'll admit that Roost certainly has utility on slower-paced teams but I'd just rather get an Attack boost and pave the way for Haxorus / Lucario / Virizion / Dragonite / Gyarados / whatever to sweep than just spend all game taking weak +0 jabs at frail Pokemon.

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Yeah most of your points are true, i just offered a viable alternative.

SD Scizor is of 'course the best Scizor set on heave/hyper offense teams, but maybe this team will badly want Scizor's priority through the whole game, and so maybe Roost will be better.

Also i suggest you move the 252 evs u have to HP and put them in Speed, since now you are outsped and killed by a bazillion of things you could outspeed and ohko before at +2

Jimera0 said:

4. If we can keep hazards off the field then it'll make maintaining that illusion a lot easier, so a spinner is necessary. As such, I suggest LO Starmie as a teammate. Asside from spinning, it also is a very powerful special attacker and potent revenge killer, with resistances to Mach and Bullet Punch to boot. It can also function as an illusion partner, taking the same hazard damage as Zoroark. Zoroark disguised as it can easily lure in spinblockers to demolish with Dark Pulse, making keeping hazards off the field easier. It can also lure in and destroy Tyranitar. All in all, seems like a good partner to me.

EDIT: Since Pocket wanted an actual full set, here's the general standard for Starmie.

@ Life Orb
Nature: Timid
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Rapid Spin
- Thunderbolt / Psychic (For Infernape, Conk, Virizon and other fighting types not hit hard enough by other moves).
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Surf

We can always change it around if we want to as well, but for starters this should be fine. Something like Trick-Specs could be fun though, screwing with Blissey and Chansey and the like for Zoroark, but I'll just go with the safe option for start.

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Yeah I said I was going to nominate it again and I meant it. Sure it doesn't check ALL the threats listed by Pocket, but it doesn't have to. We have 3 more Pokemon to chose after this one remember! It does however check Gyarados, Dragonite, Infernape, Gengar (well if it's weakened), SD Virizon (Weakened again), Haxorus (Before boost), Tornadus, Latias, Terrakion, Volcarona, Salamance, Landorus (assuming it doesn't Scarf Turn on you), Gliscor and many more.

However if you REALLY want to focus on revenge killing, here's a fun set that can really screw with shit. Of course, you lose out on Rapid Spin... but hey, this could possibly be a better fit.

@ Choice Scarf
Nature: Modest
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
- Trick
- Thunderbolt / Psychic
- Ice Beam
- Hydro Pump / Surf

Wait what you say? Scarfed Starmie? Why would you do that? Oh ho, well I'm glad you asked. Now you outspeed pretty much everything not just unboosted, but also at +1, and have the moveset to take it out. It doesn't have a lot of power compared to Life Orb, but I know from experience using Starmie that you hardly need power when you have coverage like Starmie does. Trick allows us to REALLY screw with Blissey, Chansey, Jellicent, SDef Jirachi etc., all of which usually switch into Starmie without fear. Basically, this Starmie serves two roles; one, it serves as a very potent revenge killer against a very wide array of Pokemon, and two, it can cripple a wall when we don't need the extra speed and then continue to function as a fairly fast check to threats like Gliscor and Dragonite even after losing its scarf.

Nature is Modest, because it still outspeeds +1 Salamence (the fastest threat it'll likely be called on to check) with Scarf and the extra power is much appreciated, but Timid can be run instead if we find ourselves being outsped by too many things after tricking our Scarf away (as after tricking away the scarf you fail to outspeed positive natured base 101+, including important things like Landorus, Infernape, Terrakion and Virizon). Sure it can't check EVERYTHING (Some things it won't be able to OHKO that can OHKO in return, such as SD Scizor or bulky DDnite), but if you thought we were going to check absolutely everything with one Pokemon then you're nuts. Remember again, 3 more Pokemon after this one.

But wait! There's more! I'm also nominating this new gem I only recently rediscovered; Life Orb Mamoswine.

@ Life Orb
Trait: Snow Cloak
EVs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd
Jolly / Adamant

- Earthquake
- Icicle Crash
- Ice Shard
- Stone Edge / Hail

I never really appreciated Mamoswine until I started using it, and my god what a godly revenge killer/wallbreaker does he make. Ice Shard hammers so, SO many things in the tier for super-effective damage, and can KO many of them from full health or after just a tiny bit of prior damage. Lati@s, Dragonite, Salamence, Gliscor, Landorus, Virizon, every Chloro Sweeper except Tangrowth (who's slow enough we can beat it with something else), Tornadus, Jolteon, Celebi and more all fall to his mighty Ice Shard. And that's not all he's good for either; Mamoswine hits like an absolute truck and gets great coverage between it's stabs in OU. Gliscor is flat out OHKO'd by Icicle Crash, Jellicent, gastrodon, and Vaporeon are 2HKO'd by Earthquake, Forretress and Ferrothorn are 2HKO'd after taking one layer of spikes and SR, and Skarmory is 3HKO'd by Icicle Crash which doesn't sound like much until you factor in the 30% flinch chance, meaning you flat out beat it most of the time with Rocks up. Finally, as long as hail and sandstorm aren't present it can masquerade as Zoroark pretty damn well too. Oh, and if you want you can run Hail in place of Stone Edge (you don't lose a ton of coverage, really just Gyrados and Rotom-W which you can only hit on the switch anyway) to remove Sandstorm and faciliate Illusion for things like Terrakion, as well as just to generally screw with weather. Snow Cloak becomes a nice bonus then too.

Again, Mamoswine won't check everything with this set. Scizor, Infernape, Gyarados, Air Balloon heatran and others will still defeat it. But again, no matter who we chose this stage we'll still need at least one other Pokemon to check the remainder of the threats we need. Let's face it; Haxorus and Zoroark aren't checking a lot of things on their own, so no matter what we're going to need to beef up on our checks.

Note: All three nominations are separate; the difference between Scarf Starmie and LO Starmie is vast enough that grouping them together is kind of stupid.

ALSO! That Haxorus picture is so badass, I want it as an enemy in Skyrim now.