np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

I'll just say this again because people don't seem to realize it.

GatoDelFuego said:

@diatom every one of those pokes you mentioned is completely destroyed by prankster taunt, setup sweepers, and magic bounce, because they all need focus sash where deoxys can have the freedom to run whatever item it wants, usually red card to beat spinners/setup mons, as well as the great luxury of magic coat and a taunt of its own, which none of the pokes you mentioned normally run. Against a regular offensive pokemon, such as terrakion, accelgor can get 2 layers, while deoxys can as well. But when accelgor is faced with a priority taunt user it can't get any up where deoxys will get at least one. That's what separates it.

Click to expand...

When I say deoxys outclasses every other hazard setter in the game, this is what I mean. If you have an azlef, which most people seem to be comparing to deoxys, then yes, against most "standard" leads in BW you will get a guaranteed layer of stealth rock! This would be broken in my own opinion if there were not ways to stop it. For example, a fast taunt (there are faster taunt users), a prankster taunt (sableye), a starmie surf + rapid spin. If you use any of these strategies, it will result in azelf's death and NO hazards. Or you could just set up with volcarona and laugh as they get their stealth rock. There are major differences between this and how deoxys can operate. First, it requires no focus sash, giving it the freedom to run mental herb or red card, both of which allow it one or more layers against pokemon that would not let any other hazard setter get any layers up. It also has stealth rock AND spikes, allowing it to get multiple layers up at a time. It also has the pleasure of the wonderful magic coat, letting it reflect any taunt it wants. No other hazard setter has this amazing combination of bulk, speed, item freedom, and both hazard moves.

I'll remind you of the set I am speaking of:

Deoxys-D @ Red Card
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Spikes
- Magic Coat

This really doesn't require prediction, either. If you're faced with anything that can taunt you and is faster, you magic coat. Otherwise, Stealth Rock. If something spins, it gets red carded and SR goes up again. If something sets up, it gets red carded when it attacks. No taunt user is fast + powerful enough to predict the magic coat and keep hazards down, aside from taunt gengar or something. We all know that's a complete joke anyway.

The only thing that can beat this set is a magic bounce user, which in that case just replace magic coat with skill swap. 1 move change and it can beat the other half of its counters. 50-50 choice to keep this thing from getting hazards up, if you have a counter SO DEDICATED to keeping the hazards down against deoxys.

I remind you that if you use 90% of the strategies used to prevent deoxys' SR that can be beaten by the appropriate move against any other hazard user, no hazards would go up. When applying a dedicated counter strategy to deoxys, you still cannot prevent the SR. That's what makes it outclass things.

Crustle in the ladder. People are actually using it. This brings up a good point. Crustle, a RU mon can do the exact same thing Deoxys-D does with similar efficiency. So here i ask, how banning Deoxys-D would possibly affect the metagame in any way?

SmashBrosBrawl said:

Crustle, a RU mon can do the exact same thing Deoxys-D does with similar efficiency.

Click to expand...

No, Crustle cannot do the same thing as Deo-D. Crustle is vulnerable to Taunt, and lacks the free item slot Deo-D has because Custap Berry is a necessity if you want SR + Spikes. Crustle is also worse off against spinners, Starmie can Surf then Rapid Spin to wipe Crustle and its hazards off the map, Tentacruel can go through a similar process with Scald. Forry can set up its own hazards and spin Crustle's away (dinking it to death with Rapid Spin eventually). Donphan does basically the same thing as Forretress. The only edge Crustle has over Deo-D is beating Magic Bouncers with its STAB moves.

If I may add to this Crustle v. Deoxys-D debate, while Crustle has great STAB options with its Bug/Rock typing and can guarantee hazards being setup thanks to Study its pretty slow and lacks Deoxys-D's Special Defense. Not to mention it can easily be dispatched easily by the common water types.

Oh and since Fighting is a popular attacking type, Deoxys-D resists it and can leave a dent if it wants to, but its more important that it can setup while taking minimal damage from them. Crustle only take neutral hits from fighting attacks, though it might be able to tank a couple of hits. But its STAB options are resisted by Fighting so its kind of out of luck.

Sorry if it doesn't help since I'm still new to this. Just adding ideas to the mix.

Versatility =/= Broken

If your thing is versatile, that's just a bonus, and actually anything for Deoxys-D apart from setting up Stealth Rocks and the 1st layers of Spikes is just a bonus. Two-three layers of Spikes? Your opponent is dumb, unprepared, did get really unlucky, or all the previous things already listed. Defeated a counter or something at all? The same, not usual, that happens rarely, but that's just a bonus. He's stuck with Spikes + Stealth Rock + Taunt most of the time, if he forgoes Taunt, your number of counters or possible set up users will increase to the skys, but he can forgoe Taunt, but that is just not a great idea.

Deoxys-D can look a "oh, gosh, I can do my job without problems! for it's huge moveset and stuff, but Deoxys-D can just carry 1-2 anti-counters moves at the same time, and Taunt is also a must, and for the item part, Red Card, Lum Berry, or Mental Herb are pretty much the most important, without Red Card, you're giving a free turn of setup to faster threats o even slowest if you don't use Taunt on the first turn, it ease the prediction at all, otherwise Deoxys-D is a in a hurry to predict to get the job done without it's team being sweeped, Lum Berry helps with any kind of status on the mid-run, and Mental Herb is your unique way to deal with faster Taunters.

Options against him:

- Faster leads doesn't have too many problems with Deoxys-D. They have a free turn of setup, and they can aim for the sleep, too, or they can just attack right away and limit him to just rocks or rocks + 1 layer of spikes almost always. You can aim for the taunt, too, but smarters players will just taunt you back, or will just switch-out to something that doesn't mind too much about taunt. If you did a set up and see he din't tryed to taunt you, then just proceed to KO him fast, the chances of him having a Red Card are too high for wasting other turn on setup; if he doesn't carry Red Card, anyway, you're great, enjoy your substitute/boost and possible sweep.

- Slower leads have problems, whatever you can try can lead into something awful, the best option is just attack right away if you can 2HKO him, or proceed with your own plan if you want to take the risk of get taunted (not a big risk if you can't do too much, but you may have an extra layer of hazards). Anyway, I don't lead against teams with Deoxys-D with something slow that doesn't hit like a truck, that's just a silly idea, and have SR + 1-2 layers of spikes is a correct punishment. If you attacked him, and you din't get phazed or taunted, great, setup all you can if you think you can spin later, if not, a Sword Dance, Shell Smash, or even Belly Drum will still KO Deoxys-D with the same speed, but with the bonus of a possible sweep.

That's pretty much, him's odds of getting rocks are almost flawless (the same can be said of anything with Sturdy or Focus Sash, anyway), and him's odds or getting spikes with not too much risk of sweeps and stuff is high, not 100% flawless, but pretty high, but him's odds of getting 2+ spikes are really reduced. He CAN fight the spinners, but he will be leaved always on a bad position against at least one, so, that's far from being flawless. Once he switch-out, the spinner can come, and spin everything if you played correctly. If you don't have a spinner, your Levitate users will still not suffer too much, your flyers and stuff will just suffer as always they did with Stealth Rock (nothing new here), but you'll gonna have to play really carefully against HO; that playstyle is far from being broken, but they can be really hard to deal without a spinner.

Edit: Anyway, I'm just pointing that fact, and is just to center a bit more the thread of; "him's almost flawless ability to setup SR + 1 layer of spikes is enough to make him, and it's usually playstyle broken or not?", because: Deoxys-D is not that versatile on team building as it's shown on Usage Stats, more versatile tends to be translated on higher usage (higher usage =/= good/broken, it just mean popular or easy to fit), Deoxys-D doesn't tend to do more than a single role, that is already pointed, and Deoxys-D doesn't tend to fit on teams that are not Hyper Offensive (HO). In my opinion, HO with Deoxys-D is far from being broken, they hard press you sometimes, but you can deal with that, and when more hazards are always welcome, Deoxys-D rarely does other thing apart from that (not saying he can't do more things, but I think he's being suspected for being a merely Hazard Setter), and Deoxys-D doesn't do too well synergy with other playstyles; not saying you can't, but he's not that flawless on other roles. But that is just my opinion.

Curtains said:

Well we already determined that it cant beat all spinners. Putting a spin blocker on your team doesn't count because any hazard setter can do it with better synergy (ferrothorn loves gengar and jellecent). It cant beat donphan without psycho boost. It cant beat starmie. It cant beat forretress without hp fire or taunt. It has too much ground to cover to make it broken. Its a mess. I urge anyone to come up with 3 kill all set for deoxys-d. Just 3. The counters arguement is useless because mostly anything can kill it and all deoxys can do is stand by and not put hazards up. Hmm hazards....That is what the thread name is right? You aren't setting up hazards if you are attacking with the same special attack as a blissey. A similar pokemon to deo-d is crustle. With a custap berry you are guaranteed 2 layers of anything. Also you have to watch out for shell smash which can dominate its counters.
It isnt broken though. Not even OU. So maybe hazards aren't as good as we think. Is SR + 1 layer really game breaking enough to ban something for being able to do it? No.

Click to expand...

as i've explained numerous times (and bri did a great job too, i might add), deoxys-d can in fact beat all spinners. you claim that deo-d can't beat starmie under any circumstances, but that's just false, thunderbolt ohkos with a gem or a life orb and thunder serves the same purpose but with even greater utility against rain teams. hp fire ohkos forre, life orb psycho boost ohkos donphan, and the list goes on. you ask for a set that takes down every spinner, and i'll tell you up front that there isn't one. however, in my opinion the most efficient set would be sr / spikes / tbolt / psycho boost, because then you're only leaving deo-d vulnerable to being spun on by forretress, and that's easily taken care of with gengar as a partner. speaking of gengar, you claim ferrothorn has better synergy with jellicent as its spinblocker than deo-d has with gar, and while this is conditionally true, ferro is instant taunt bait for anything that carries it, has four moveslot syndrome to a much worse degree than deo-d, and also can only beat starmie in terms of ou spinners, losing to forretress and tentacruel assuming a likely scald burn happens in a timely manner, which is usually the case. then you try to make this weird comparison to crustle, but i'd like to remind you that crustle also only has four moveslots, and its item slot is already decided from the start (custap berry is the obvious choice). crustle is also very standard taunt bait, just like any pitifully slow hazard setter, and lacks the raw power and depth of movepool to muscle through physically bulky spinners like forretress, tentacruel, and donphan, whereas deo-d can break any spinner with the appropriate move. you say crustle can get two layers of anything for free, and then bring up shell smash as well, so does that mean your suggested crustle is a stealth rock + spikes + shell smash mono-attacker? not sure that's a super viable set in ou. sorry, but trying to compare deoxys-d to crustle is like comparing a private defense attorney to your everyday district da. they both do a certain job, but one of them does it a whole lot better.

Deoxys-D do it's job (Stealth Rock + 1 Layer of Spikes) on an almost flawless fashion (Crustle and friends are not that flawless, but they tend to get the job done, anyway), but in exchange, he's not carrying offensive presence at all and/or he doesn't have a good synergy with the overall Pokémon of OU. In other words, Deoxys-D is outclassed as a variety hazard setter by Ferrothorn and others by a huge amount, but Deoxys-D outclass every purely hazard setter, too, as he gets on a almost flawless fashion 2 layers of hazards, and can sometimes get the 3 layer as a bonus.

Lavos Spawn said:

crustle is also very standard taunt bait

Click to expand...

I don't understand

You go through a long post about how deoxys should use a gem and 2 attacks... then say that crustle is taunt bait.

At least crustle can do damage to SOME things when taunted

Deoxys is completely shut down by a simple taunt 99% of the time

Except the 40%+ times that the typical PS ladderer (lol) uses Magic Coat or Mental Herb. I'm sure the tournament statistics would be much higher.

Princess Bri said:

Except the 40%+ times that the typical PS ladderer (lol) uses Magic Coat or Mental Herb. I'm sure the tournament statistics would be much higher.

Click to expand...

I'm aware of that, I was referring to lavos's /incredibly efficient/ set and the fact that ferro is taunt bait, yet 0 offensive pressense deoxys is not?

I'm still under the impression that, for ho, mental herb+double hazard+taunt+whatever is the best and is considered relatively standard, bar variation in the item

If you are unaware of Deoxys-D's most common sets and continually fail in discussions with bad theorymon, I strongly recommend laddering and learning the OU metagame before posting. From reading your last few posts, you honestly are not familiarized with the metagame enough to discuss it. I do not mean to call you out; however, your posts are interfering with the discussion and I know several moderators will gladly infract you if you continue, Vemane..

Click to expand...

In what regard, may I ask?

SmashBrosBrawl said:

Ferro is taunt bait? Thats new to me. So taunt users enjoy taking a power whip/gyro ball to the face hum?

Click to expand...

yeah ferro is definitely taunt bait and i'm not sure what sort of taunt user you're talking about when you refer to "taunt users...taking a power whip/gyro ball to the face" because the majority of them either smash ferro right off the bat or shrug off whatever ferro cares to throw at them. deoxys-d can taunt and take like 30% from a power whip and start setting up. terrakion just uses close combat and does a number on the thing. sableye taunts, takes maybe 45% from power whip, then burns ferro and recovers off the damage taken earlier, no big deal. sure, maybe really uncommon taunters like aerodactyl lose to ferrothorn, but i'm not entirely positive what you're talking about here.

SmashBrosBrawl said:

About crustle viability, its extremely viable, can setup rocks and spikes and threaten shit with shell smash if you get the opportunity. Deoxys-D advantages over crustle are a fast taunt and better special bulk. Crustles advantages are offensive presence and acces to sturdy. Still they do the exact same thing anyway so i dont see how deoxys-d does A LOT better.

Click to expand...

again with the crustle thing, which i already explained, but i guess you didn't read my post so i'll say it again: it only has four moveslots, just like anything else. how are you proposing that crustle is going to be able to "threaten shit with shell smash" when it's also setting up "rocks and spikes"? are you running a mono-attacking crustle? i'd like to know a) what move you're running as your only attack, b) when crustle is going to find time to set up plus lay hazards, and c) what you think you're actually going to do to your opponent when you're only using one attack which the person more than likely has a resistance or immunity for. and once again, the only spinner crustle even "beats" is starmie, it loses to the other two most common ou spinners in forretress and tentacruel, so its "advantages" over deoxys-d amount to sturdy, and that's it. not a great reason to use it over the best hazard setter in ou.

Lavos Spawn said:

as i've explained numerous times (and bri did a great job too, i might add), deoxys-d can in fact beat all spinners. you claim that deo-d can't beat starmie under any circumstances, but that's just false, thunderbolt ohkos with a gem or a life orb and thunder serves the same purpose but with even greater utility against rain teams. hp fire ohkos forre, life orb psycho boost ohkos donphan, and the list goes on. you ask for a set that takes down every spinner, and i'll tell you up front that there isn't one. however, in my opinion the most efficient set would be sr / spikes / tbolt / psycho boost, because then you're only leaving deo-d vulnerable to being spun on by forretress, and that's easily taken care of with gengar as a partner. speaking of gengar, you claim ferrothorn has better synergy with jellicent as its spinblocker than deo-d has with gar, and while this is conditionally true, ferro is instant taunt bait for anything that carries it, has four moveslot syndrome to a much worse degree than deo-d, and also can only beat starmie in terms of ou spinners, losing to forretress and tentacruel assuming a likely scald burn happens in a timely manner, which is usually the case. then you try to make this weird comparison to crustle, but i'd like to remind you that crustle also only has four moveslots, and its item slot is already decided from the start (custap berry is the obvious choice). crustle is also very standard taunt bait, just like any pitifully slow hazard setter, and lacks the raw power and depth of movepool to muscle through physically bulky spinners like forretress, tentacruel, and donphan, whereas deo-d can break any spinner with the appropriate move. you say crustle can get two layers of anything for free, and then bring up shell smash as well, so does that mean your suggested crustle is a stealth rock + spikes + shell smash mono-attacker? not sure that's a super viable set in ou. sorry, but trying to compare deoxys-d to crustle is like comparing a private defense attorney to your everyday district da. they both do a certain job, but one of them does it a whole lot better.

Click to expand...

Now we are running LO and electric gem? What about red card and mental herb? Like I said before running specific moves to beat one pokemon isnt uber worthy. I can do the same thing with almost any pokemon in the tier. Deo-d is exactly like crustle because in all sets you give guess what? It is taunt bait! But now you will say that you have mental herb instead of electric gem.... If you try to beat the spinners (which i will say again bringing in spinners directly isnt my first and smartest option against deoxys-d) you are taunt bait. Run a mental herb and you get pounded by attacks (the best option even if red carded). It is a lose lose. obviously you dont want to spin against deo because it will still be alive to win that battle. So the best play is just to hit it up front and kill it to make it a 6-5 with some hazards game. Lets think about the common taunters vs deo d for a second.....

Terrakion - taunts you then hits you with stone edge. Another pokemon comes in and 2hkos you. Wins depending on a stone edge hit.

Mew- faster than you and taunts you then sets up. Mental herb? sets up and explodes or something. Mew wins most of the time.

jellicent- slower than you and you win if you have taunt or mental herb (not on your most efficient set)

Heatran - Same thing as jellicent.

So unless you have deoxys item choice #12 or taunt its self then you are just as much taunt bait as crustle.

Also lets remember that deoxys usually starts as a lead... So my first thought when I see the preview is get a big strong mon to kill it immediately then bring out a spinner later. Very predictable. So if you try to use your most efficient set against my team you already lose out on using taunt and hitting my strongest mon for decent damage. When you are attacking you aren't getting up rocks. Remember.. Deo-d has the same special attack as blissey. I will take 6-5 with SR and spikes all day vs anyone.

And Shell smash was just something i brought up not too seriously but it is an option as a lure set. Don't mind that.

SmashBrosBrawl said:

I was referring to jellicent and terrakion if you wanted to know. As for crustle, deoxys-d also only uses one attack. Its the same deal. Psycho boost or hp fire, Xscissor or stone edge. Both of them run single moves to threaten stuff. Also keep in mind that the point of mentioning crustle isnt to say it should be used over deoxys-d, the point is it can replace it so banning deoxys-d wont do anything to weaken HO.

Click to expand...

like i said earlier, if ferrothorn has taken practically any prior damage, terrakion can close combat for the ko, and with jellicent it's a coin flip: attack if you think it'll taunt, set up hazards if you think it'll will-o-wisp. either way, i don't see a real favorable outcome for the ferrothorn user, because once it's taunted anything that resists both stabs can set up, and if it's burned then it can't touch anything for significant damage, which removes any offensive presence ferro might have previously had. and as for the crustle argument, once again, deoxys-d is not limited to only one attack, whereas the crustle set you propose definitely is. another key distinction is that, while crustle's attack is meant to put offensive pressure on the opponent, deo-d's attack(s) are meant to surprise the opponent and score a free ko. for example, fire gem hp fire is meant to surprise forre and ohko it, if the opponent already knows about it they're not going to switch forre in immediately, they'll wait before spinning. with crustle, it's a whole different story, because as you said, it's either going to be stone edge or x-scissor, so you send in your jirachi or whatever your rock resist happens to be and scout for the one attacking move, then switch if need be or just stay in and wear it down (which doesn't take long, it's crustle).

SmashBrosBrawl said:

banning deoxys-d wont do anything to weaken HO.

Click to expand...

go read the thread, you might learn something.

SmashBrosBrawl said:

I was referring to jellicent and terrakion if you wanted to know. As for crustle, deoxys-d also only uses one attack. Its the same deal. Psycho boost or hp fire, Xscissor or stone edge. Both of them run single moves to threaten stuff. Also keep in mind that the point of mentioning crustle isnt to say it should be used over deoxys-d, the point is it can replace it so banning deoxys-d wont do anything to weaken HO.

Click to expand...

The difference is, though, that Deoxys' moves are tailored to defeat his counters, not to set up and sweep (and either that or hazards will be attempted, not both). Attempting to sweep with +2 x-scizor isn't the best idea, where a single +1 hpfire can be a useful utility.

Though, crustle can indeed (to an extent) replace deoxys, though I'm sure other pokes (mew, forry, ferro (as is already the case), azelf, etc) can set up hazards, likely more efficiently, with mew and azelf and co (and even forry) functioning well for ho.

what sets deo apart is his access to both hazards and a wide support pool for the last 2 slots (though I still maintain that the difficulty in 2hkoing him (and only allowing rocks) is greatly overestimated)

I just want to repeat- no one cares if another pokemon can run a dumb gimmick move to beat one of its counters because it doesn't break the game on the spot if it's able to do that. Deo-D goes nuts with hazards and preventing you from setting anything up which will decide the game. In addition Deo-D doesn't even need to run dumb gimmicks, it has a pool of a bunch of equally reasonable moves and reasonable teammates it can run to beat counters while you can only pick counters to a limited portion of it. Sure it's not technically hard to beat 80% ish of them if you know it's coming (don't give me PS stats to try to support anything) and use the most specialized team possible but when you normally get a coinflip or worse based on which random anti counter moves it's running today, I find the games pretty stupid.

Lavos Spawn said:

like i said earlier, if ferrothorn has taken practically any prior damage, terrakion can close combat for the ko, and with jellicent it's a coin flip: attack if you think it'll taunt, set up hazards if you think it'll will-o-wisp. either way, i don't see a real favorable outcome for the ferrothorn user, because once it's taunted anything that resists both stabs can set up, and if it's burned then it can't touch anything for significant damage, which removes any offensive presence ferro might have previously had. and as for the crustle argument, once again, deoxys-d is not limited to only one attack, whereas the crustle set you propose definitely is. another key distinction is that, while crustle's attack is meant to put offensive pressure on the opponent, deo-d's attack(s) are meant to surprise the opponent and score a free ko. for example, fire gem hp fire is meant to surprise forre and ohko it, if the opponent already knows about it they're not going to switch forre in immediately, they'll wait before spinning. with crustle, it's a whole different story, because as you said, it's either going to be stone edge or x-scissor, so you send in your jirachi or whatever your rock resist happens to be and scout for the one attacking move, then switch if need be or just stay in and wear it down (which doesn't take long, it's crustle).



go read the thread, you might learn something.

Click to expand...

If you run more than one attack on Deoxys-D you lose taunt. Taunt + 90 speed is THE thing Deoxys-D has that sets it apart from other hazard users.

SmashBrosBrawl said:

If you run more than one attack on Deoxys-D you lose taunt. Taunt + 90 speed is THE thing Deoxys-D has that sets it apart from other hazard users.

Click to expand...

Not necessarily.

I've seen a number of teams that put SR on a seperate mon and use Deo-d just for spikes.

For example,
-Spikes
-Taunt
-HP Fire/Thunder/Psycho Boost
-HP Fire/Thunder/Psycho Boost/Whatever


Then you have something else on your team like Landorus and Terrakion to set up SR. You're then left with a situation where there is less pressure on Deo-D, Deo-D can take on a different set of "counters" unique to your teams needs, and continue being completely unpredictable to your opponent.

Is it the best set? No probably not. But if you need Deo-D to be able to handle pokemon "abc" AND "xyz", it CAN.

It can't do everything at once. The point is how easy it is to tailor Deo-D to whatever your team needs, and your teammates can then fill in the holes. Not everything is afforded the same luxury without being called a trashy gimmick.

stop using gimmicks
start running sr spikes taunt attack
win games

if you're using hazard deoxys-d then go balls to the wall and stop limiting yourself and your team with these gimmicks.

also there should be more discussion on the meta without deoxys-d. i now have TWO games under my belt and again, it's refreshing that i actually get to build a team without worrying about hyper offense. gives me a chance to actually just team build and win on skill rather than running garbage / losing to random shit + hazards.

You can still have mew (with explosion)

Click to expand...

what

I actually think hazards are healthy to a meta with so many strong attackers.

Click to expand...

what

How strong is scarfed keldeo with 2 layers and SR up?

Click to expand...

what....

ummm mew doesnt set up spikes, no...its not healthy....keldeo is ridiculous with 2 layers and sr up isnt that a point against deoxys-d that it sets it up so easily for sweepers like keldeo

i i .. i cant figure out the point of your post. did it even have a point. what does the last part even mean

SmashBrosBrawl said:

Crustle in the ladder. People are actually using it. This brings up a good point. Crustle, a RU mon can do the exact same thing Deoxys-D does with similar efficiency. So here i ask, how banning Deoxys-D would possibly affect the metagame in any way?

Click to expand...

Dude come on, at least think about what you're saying before posting. Crustle doesn't have access to Magic Coat to be immune to Taunt, can't use Taunt itself, doesn't have 90 base speed, doesn't have an at least somewhat decent Defensive typing (weakness to Water is huge in today's metagame), attacks don't threaten any Rapid Spinners, the list goes on. You could have even said Forretress over Crustle, like wtf dude lol. Cum on step it up next time!

@KD HO can still exist. Jeez man. If you actually read what I am saying maybe you could understand.

The last part is you make it seem like HO was this big thing since BW began when it wasnt. So it shouldn't be this big sigh of relief.

kd24 said:

also there should be more discussion on the meta without deoxys-d. i now have TWO games under my belt and again, it's refreshing that i actually get to build a team without worrying about hyper offense. gives me a chance to actually just team build and win on skill rather than running garbage / losing to random shit + hazards.

Click to expand...

I'll take a crack at it since I've just qualified to vote!

While ladder quality no doubt has an effect on this, the metagame is much better compared to OU with Deoxys-D. I've actually had enjoyable ladder games! Drizzle teams are still dominant/superior but at least one has an easier time preparing for them because Deo-D teams are no longer a problem. For the entire test I've been running a bulkier Rain team that uses Specs Tornadus and it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone that it's freakin great. I would still argue that Drizzle is testworthy but this is definitely a step in the right direction.

I've seen some Deo-D "replacements" pop up but none of them have even close to the same momentum potential. None of them can afford to dedicate half of their movesets to defeating "counters" and are much easier to set up on than Deo-D was since the only one with Taunt and good speed is Froslass. I've seen Forretress and Crustle try a Custap hazard opening but they're either Taunt or set up bait, I'll admit that I found Crustle pretty interesting though lol.

Thank you TOBES for the great thread title.

Tobes Edit: That was my handiwork >:

Tobes Edit 2: np you're welcome

SmashBrosBrawl said:

Dude come on, at least think about what youre saying before posting. Did i said Crustle has all of Deoxys-D tricks? No, i said it does the same thing: setup rocks+spikes, with similar efficiency. Similar, not identical. Of course Deoxys-D is better i am not even denying that.

Click to expand...

problem is, crustle doesn't have similar efficiency at all, since it has no way to defend against taunt, loses to 2/3 common ou spinners, is slow, has terrible hp and special defense, and has little to no versatility in its movepool - not to mention it has zero "offensive presence" with a mighty base attack of...95. me and a ton of others have said this many times over, it shouldn't have to be reiterated.

Comparing Crustle with Deoxys-D because they can both set spikes and rocks is like comparing Mewtwo and Gardevoir because they both can set-up sweep...

Its a pretty poor argument to say the least, I wouldn't even try to defend it because it's entirely pointless to the topic in question.

SmashBrosBrawl said:

Crustle in the ladder. People are actually using it. This brings up a good point. Crustle, a RU mon can do the exact same thing Deoxys-D does with similar efficiency. So here i ask, how banning Deoxys-D would possibly affect the metagame in any way?

Click to expand...

At least the Azelf set you were touting a few pages earlier had some merits (even though flawed), but this? Come on man.. you can't be serious about this.

I won't go into rebuts. Everyone above already ninja'd me to that, I'd just like to add this. There isn't a single hazarder in OU or below right now which can put so much pressure on the opposing team like Deo-D can. Show me even a single one who can. The suspect ladder is full of Crustles and Ferrothorns, and they're all shitty in comparison, unless the player is really good they will be reasonable countered by superior teams/play.

People are actually straight up just slapping on Crustle in place of Deo-D in their regular OU teams and expecting that nothing will change. Once they stop using it, they realize what a broken advantage they had.