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np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard
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Really surprised to see this....
Deo-D really suffers vs weather teams. or any team with offense (most teams). Everything from trappers to high power water/sun attacks to the standard fare Tyranitar can beat this thing. Yes you can make a lure set but then you have no hazards and it becomes basically a poor man's deo-s. The most it will get up vs strong players is SR and maybe a layer of spikes. I never had a problem with it as most teams need 2 or more supporting pokemon to make it work. As said before in this thread:
1. Rapid spinners makes it useless
2. It has no attacking prospects other than gimmick situational moves (i.e superpower, hp fire or skill swap)
3. It is one of the best cases of 4 move syndrome.
4. Weather teams dominate It. Deo can easily be 2-3hkoed by boosted weather moves.
5. The supporting spin blockers are weak defensively (i.e gengar)
6. It can get set up on all day (doesn't matter if you use red card. The burden is on you to decide which item is best..good luck)
In a BW2 metagame Deoxys-D is just not uber. It is a fast SRer and maybe if you are lucky you can get a spike up. It is just a huge red target with nothing it can do back to me. I will take 6-5 full health and 2 entry hazards vs anyone anyday. Also one member said that ferrothorn is better and he is exactly right. With ferrothorn it can do much more annoying things and it has better typing and attacking moves along with t-wave that can crush some of its counters.
Deo-D really suffers vs weather teams. or any team with offense (most teams). Everything from trappers to high power water/sun attacks to the standard fare Tyranitar can beat this thing. Yes you can make a lure set but then you have no hazards and it becomes basically a poor man's deo-s. The most it will get up vs strong players is SR and maybe a layer of spikes. I never had a problem with it as most teams need 2 or more supporting pokemon to make it work. As said before in this thread:
1. Rapid spinners makes it useless
2. It has no attacking prospects other than gimmick situational moves (i.e superpower, hp fire or skill swap)
3. It is one of the best cases of 4 move syndrome.
4. Weather teams dominate It. Deo can easily be 2-3hkoed by boosted weather moves.
5. The supporting spin blockers are weak defensively (i.e gengar)
6. It can get set up on all day (doesn't matter if you use red card. The burden is on you to decide which item is best..good luck)
In a BW2 metagame Deoxys-D is just not uber. It is a fast SRer and maybe if you are lucky you can get a spike up. It is just a huge red target with nothing it can do back to me. I will take 6-5 full health and 2 entry hazards vs anyone anyday. Also one member said that ferrothorn is better and he is exactly right. With ferrothorn it can do much more annoying things and it has better typing and attacking moves along with t-wave that can crush some of its counters.
"Nothing stops it from doing its job. Virtually impossible to OHKO, and it has all the tools it needs to beat its "counters". That alone means it should be banned IMO."
'Nothing' stops Ninjask from doing its job. Protect on turn one, baton pass on turn two. It can even come in and do it again for another Pokemon later on. The fact is that a 1.5x speed boost is just like a free layer of rocks. Neither means the Pokemon doing the job should get banned.
Plus, both are stopped by Sableye.
I agree with the person above.^ Ferrothorn does Deoxys-D's job better, does even more jobs, and has been over-centralizing since the beginning of BW1. So many things carry HP Fire just because of that guy and it is a ridiculous wall in rain, yet no one is crying to ban Ferrothorn.
'Nothing' stops Ninjask from doing its job. Protect on turn one, baton pass on turn two. It can even come in and do it again for another Pokemon later on. The fact is that a 1.5x speed boost is just like a free layer of rocks. Neither means the Pokemon doing the job should get banned.
Plus, both are stopped by Sableye.
I agree with the person above.^ Ferrothorn does Deoxys-D's job better, does even more jobs, and has been over-centralizing since the beginning of BW1. So many things carry HP Fire just because of that guy and it is a ridiculous wall in rain, yet no one is crying to ban Ferrothorn.
It is just false to say that Sableye stop Deo-D, with Magic Coat or Mental Herb, Deo-D just win a free layer. (i.e., one more that it would have if you had lead with something else)
At better you speak about something you don't know, at worst you just obviously change the facts with a ridiculous comparison.
And Curtains :
-1 : you assume they can have a free spin, which is an unreallistic statement against a serious player with a HO Deo-D.
-2 : skill swap is not as gimmicky as you want it to appears
-3 : it is not an argument at all. It would be better with 5 moveslot, sure, as numerous pokemon. Does it mean that with the "only 4 slots" he cannot be broken ?
-4 : you have to set up weather with Politoed/Ninetales first to have weather boosted move. The Specs max SpA set of these fail to OHKO the SpD Deo-D, not to mention that without a life orb they fail to 2HK0, and if they want moves with a better accuracy, they just fail to 2HK0 without Specs.
If you switch out after having set up weather, you give a free layer. So you have to kill it if you want not let it doing it's job better he could pray. Being a set up bay after the kill, and having SR + a layer of spikes on your side if you run Politoed, SR if you run Ninetales, doesn't sounds like having stopped Deo-D of doing it's job.
If you don't lead with these, speaking of the weather-boosted move is pretty irrelevant.
-5 : they don't need to be solid defensively to do their job extremely effectively. Read the 10 first page if you disagree, you'll see that their aim is not to stall spinners all the day.
-6 : you say that it doesn't matter if with have red card (or I suppose T-Wave or Taunt), so in fact you say "apart from the set of this pokemon which are able to counter setup sweeper, he cannot counter setup sweeper". Sure, it's true, but it doesn't matter and is just a shitty argument.
At better you speak about something you don't know, at worst you just obviously change the facts with a ridiculous comparison.
And Curtains :
-1 : you assume they can have a free spin, which is an unreallistic statement against a serious player with a HO Deo-D.
-2 : skill swap is not as gimmicky as you want it to appears
-3 : it is not an argument at all. It would be better with 5 moveslot, sure, as numerous pokemon. Does it mean that with the "only 4 slots" he cannot be broken ?
-4 : you have to set up weather with Politoed/Ninetales first to have weather boosted move. The Specs max SpA set of these fail to OHKO the SpD Deo-D, not to mention that without a life orb they fail to 2HK0, and if they want moves with a better accuracy, they just fail to 2HK0 without Specs.
If you switch out after having set up weather, you give a free layer. So you have to kill it if you want not let it doing it's job better he could pray. Being a set up bay after the kill, and having SR + a layer of spikes on your side if you run Politoed, SR if you run Ninetales, doesn't sounds like having stopped Deo-D of doing it's job.
If you don't lead with these, speaking of the weather-boosted move is pretty irrelevant.
-5 : they don't need to be solid defensively to do their job extremely effectively. Read the 10 first page if you disagree, you'll see that their aim is not to stall spinners all the day.
-6 : you say that it doesn't matter if with have red card (or I suppose T-Wave or Taunt), so in fact you say "apart from the set of this pokemon which are able to counter setup sweeper, he cannot counter setup sweeper". Sure, it's true, but it doesn't matter and is just a shitty argument.
Shell Smash Cloyster. There. Good Luck trying to 'outspeed' +2 Skill link icicle Spear. 6-0. GG.
Oh wait there's more!
QD volcarona, Dancing Terrakion, both boost alongside pretty happily ready to devastate whatever unfortunate pokemon it Baton Passes those 'invaluable' boosts too.
Same goes for DDmence, DDnite (gl with Espeed), SD Scizor etc etc etc.
Bad Analogy is bad.
I may actually be strengthening that flawed argument but which part of 'Mental Herb' AND Magic Coat, which has been repeatedly mentioned in the past 10 pages doesn't already deal with this? And Deo-D doesn't exactly mind getting burnt... Another free move is all the more better.
Please Make an effort to read the previous pages.
I highlighted that key sentence. So you are basically saying:
- Ferrothorn has taunt and base 90 speed to outspeed and shut down slower stuff like Blissey and Foretress
- It can Survive a Super Effective moves like Superpower and Close Combat (not including 4x fire moves, I'm making this easy) from a Physical Attacker even if it is not a STAB move,
- It can utilize Magic Coat to reflect back non damaging moves
- It can OHKO Scizor and Tyranitar with an Appropriate Move + Gem if it chose to
- It can actually do something about Substitute + Setup Sweepers..
- Has Decent Offensive Options beyond Power Whip and Gyro Ball. Especially something as strong or more powerful than the likes of Psycho Boost
- It can actually do something about Spinners
- It has Skill Swap to deal with Magic Bouncers who wall it COLD.
- Has an Instant recovery move instead of having to Rely on Chance things like Leech Seed+Protect
- And More..... Since it's Supposed to be 'Better'
Yeah Right.....
and HP fire is not carried 'Just for that thing' it's a great utility move to nail Scizor and Forretress and Specially based Dragons Carry it to counter the likes of Magnezone. Plus many sweepers would be lost without it because Celebi could just come in and stand there all day with Lefties + Recover.
I don't really want to go into a theorymon back and forth but what the hell is stopping a donphan or a starmie from spinning whenever they want against deo-d? Oh and not to mention that the variety and quality of spin blockers is terrible this gen. Skill swap isnt stopping a spinner and red card iirc can only be used once. So what is stopping me from spinning? Nothing. One of the most known strategies I am sure since the beginning of smogon is a super hard counter to a suspect in 2013. Rapid spin doesn't just counter it; Rapid spin shuts it down completely. What separates s from d is that s has the offensive capabilities to take out entire teams along with setting up. D is a one trick pony with night shade being the only reliable attacking move. If you have to rely on red card, mental herb and the atrocious defenses of a gengar to get rocks and spikes up then maybe it aint so good. Annoying? not even. Personally I think thunder-wave is a cheap move but it almost never comes up in any discussion.
I also disagree with someone that said that it is easy to make weather-less teams... I forgot who but he had some badges.
I think weather-less teams will suffer because of this. I think it is just as easy to make a weather team as it is to make a non weather. I actually think it is 20 x harder to make a weather-less team because you have to have responses to every weather and you don't have the auto boost for your team. I think keeping D is a solid trade off for players that want to keep their weatherless teams competitive. Besides, which is worse? 1 turn to set up a team or 4? Rain has politoed, sun has ninetails, sand has ttar, non weather has deo-D. Also note that the top teams this gen have been weather. So it is much easier for a new player to run in rmt forums and grab a politoed stall team and do well than a difficult weatherless team that has to be used with precision.
Then again, running the LO+3 Attacks is absolute taunt fodder. we can also use things such as the weighted stats to get a rough estimate on the set it will use. 4MSS isn't really a good thing. Yeah. Oh yeah shrang, i fought you on the suspect ladder. WHAT THE FUCK EQ LATIOS?
Donphan doesn't need to beat spinblockers. All you do is switch out to another pokemon and take it from there. Also if you have a deo team Im not bringing him out first turn. I am bringing out a raw attacker to keep you to only 2 hazards. Then I will bring out donphan and we can play against your synergisticly (is this a word) weak team. Also your set is not a good reason why it should be uber. I can get ko's with LO blissey as well. It is not a deo-s offensively. Any chance you try to make deo offensive just makes it a even bigger free mon for me to kill. The main attraction to deo is SR + spikes with a spin blocker. Since using a spinner is almost mandatory with deo teams all I have to do is kill the spin blocker. Which should be easy to do since they are weak defensively as I said before.
We all say that Deo-D will always get at least one layer of hazards up, likely 2. Well, look at Accelgor. It does the exact same thing, nearly always getting one layer up, and usually 2. I'm a little confused as to why getting a free hazard up is broken when so many other things can do it. Here's a list of some of the most prominent that will get hazards up no matter what:
Deo-D (of course)
Scolipede
Accelgor
Froslass
With a sash, Accelgor will get two hazard layers up, and Froslass and Scolipede are guaranteed one layer with other utility as well. Could someone please tell me what makes Deo-D broken while these others are sitting in UU or below? I'm confused.
Deo-D (of course)
Scolipede
Accelgor
Froslass
With a sash, Accelgor will get two hazard layers up, and Froslass and Scolipede are guaranteed one layer with other utility as well. Could someone please tell me what makes Deo-D broken while these others are sitting in UU or below? I'm confused.
Dark Fallen Angel
FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!
Try to use Rapid Spin if Deoxys-D has Rocky Helmet equipped, plus Deoxys-D can always use an offensive set to beat spinners. Also, despite all this, Deoxys-D can lay down hazards, and you may still be hard pressed to spin with so much offensive pressure that your opponent apply on you.
Ok run a rocky helmet... Now how do you stop me from 2-3hkoing with a special attack? We can make situations all day. But there is not one consensus that gives a set that is broken. It is all situational. I say attack, you say red card. I say spin, you say rocky helmet. I say taunt, you say mental herb. That is 3 items that dont work 2/3 of the time. which one is broken?
CanadianWifier
Run Away With Me
The Heatran calc was with Flash Fire activated, otherwise:
252+ SpA Choice Specs Heatran Overheat vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Deoxys-D: 250-295 (82.23 - 97.03%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
The Heracross calcs were with just a healthy Heracross, so mentioning Guts was unnecessary on my part.
Also, all the calcs were done on the "standard" 252 HP / 4 Def / 252+ Speed Speedy Spiker, so there was no investment in either defence stat.
The main thing I`m noticing is that Deo-D is has access to Stealth Rock, and that the others are rather frail and fast, where as Deo-D is not so fast, but enormously tanky. This gives Deoxys the option of using whatever kind of item it wants, where as the others need to run Focus Sash to avoid being OHKOed by quite a few different things. Its not like they`re unviable, just that Deoxys generally does it better.
Where are these ''it can run psycho boost hp fire thunderbolt rocky helmet skill swap v-create whatever to kill its counters'' is going to lead? Nowhere thats where. It can choose ONE of these options and nothing more. If it runs hp fire it can defeat scizor and dies to other counters and so on. This applies to every single pokemon in the game. Anything can run a gimmick to defeat its counters. Why do you think hp fire and hp ice are so common in a bunch of attackers? This is not a ban argument. Deoxys-D is not broken, this has been explained through several times already just look at previous posts. The point here is if its unhealthy for the metagame because it helps HO. Well good news there are dozens of mons that can do Deoxys-D job too, banning it wont change anything. Also if youre so weak to HO, use something to counter it. Its that simple, if your team is weak to something you run a counter/check.
Except it's not only "your counter dies". It's "your counter dies, and it gets up SR and more than likely 1+ layer of spikes before dying and setting up the HO rush". It's now a 5/5 battle with 2 layers up against HO. And it's not like you don't run teammates to cover for the pokemon Deo-D can't handle.
All pokemon can run moves that destroys its counters, but Deo-D arguably does it better than anyone else, because of how dangerous hazards are, how few pokemon in OU can counter them, and how difficult it is to counter them against HO.
All pokemon can run moves that destroys its counters, but Deo-D arguably does it better than anyone else, because of how dangerous hazards are, how few pokemon in OU can counter them, and how difficult it is to counter them against HO.
Then nothing got spun away and at least one layer of hazards are up. You have donphan/starmie as a lead, best case scenario. I set up SR, you spin it away, red card activates, you go out. Next turn you switch in donphan again and I set up SR. I switch to gengar to block your spin, now tell me how you "take it from there". The point is that the rapid spinner has failed to let the layer of hazards go up. You're just further emphasizing that some spinners cannot beat the spinblockers, leaving hazards up.
Do yourself a favor and read the first ten pages of this thread. You'll find that all of this has been discussed thoroughly.
@shrang, LO+3 attacks deoxys will beat every spinner, yes, but it is an inferior deoxys set to the one pocket and I, as well as pretty much everyone else in this thread, are talking about. It just can't take on as many strategies as red card + hazards + taunt + magic coat can. You may use it all the time but that doesn't make it not a gimmick.
@diatom every one of those pokes you mentioned is completely destroyed by prankster taunt, setup sweepers, and magic bounce, because they all need focus sash where deoxys can have the freedom to run whatever item it wants, usually red card to beat spinners/setup mons, as well as the great luxury of magic coat and a taunt of its own, which none of the pokes you mentioned normally run. Against a regular offensive pokemon, such as terrakion, accelgor cat get 2 layers, while deoxys can as well. But when accelgor is faced with a priority taunt user it can't get any up where deoxys will get at least one. That's what separates it.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
you're incorrect. deo-d gets more than one free moveslot on the more offensive sets that exist to shut down spinners. for example, on the standard life orb or gem set, the moves are sr, spikes, and two attacks, those attacks generally being hp fire, thunderbolt, psycho boost, and superpower. if sr is already on the team, deo-d can take it a step further and run three attacks plus spikes, which is an equally good moveset. point is (and i've been saying this for eleven pages now), deo-d's ability to shut down any particular one of its supposedly "hard counters" by using a perfectly viable move out of two to three free slots that it has access to makes it nearly impossible for a team to effectively check it. bandtar? superpower. scizor / forretress? hp fire. tentacruel? psycho boost. starmie? thunderbolt. the list goes on and on. you also claim that "anything can run a gimmick to defeat its counters", which is, again, incorrect. a scizor cannot beat a skarmory. a terrakion cannot beat a landorus-t. a sheer force landorus cannot beat a blissey. a deoxys-d, however, can beat a choice band tyranitar, a choice band scizor, a forretress, a tentacruel, and a starmie. how many other pokemon that are still ou can also say that they are literally uncounterable when running the right moveset for the scenario that they are in? the answer is just about zero, unless you want to drag hydreigon into this, and that's iffy as well.
your final claim really upsets me, though, because it's amazing that some people still think this is true. you specifically state that a pokemon having the ability to defeat all of the things that people claim "counter" it is "not a ban argument". that is complete lies. look back two suspect rounds for me, please, and explain to me why genesect was banned from ou. for the large majority of people, the greatest reason was its versatility. it could run choice scarf, bluff with ebelt or sash, run a choice band set, a rock polish set, even a specs set, and all of them were perfectly viable and made genesect roguishly unpredictable and difficult to deal with appropriately. now look at deoxys-d and its potential movesets. it can run dual hazards taunt, dual hazards magic coat, dual hazards status, dual hazards gem attacker, dual hazards life orb attacker, spikes + life orb three attacks, and even trick choice band/specs/scarf, all of these movesets, again, being perfectly viable. the similarities to the genesect suspect test are eerie in their accuracy.
and let's not forget, this entire post was all about the versatility of deoxys-d and its unpredictability as a whole. that's just one slice of the cake, though. let's not forget that it also sports better base defenses than any other hazard layer in ou, higher speed than any other pokemon possessing sr + spikes that is still ou, and a typing that enjoys resisting the most common offensive type of attack in bw2 ou, fighting. all these characteristics together are what combine to make a truly broken hazard machine.
hyper offense isn't something you can check with just one pokemon. it's not simple, if your team is weak to something, then yes, you can substitute one pokemon for another pokemon, or one move for another move to help cope with said weakness, but you open yourself up to different weaknesses by making the change in teambuilding. like i stated a lot in the auto weather thread, teambuilding is all about tradeoffs. if you want to do better against a certain playstyle, and you change your team to do so, you are now worse off against another playstyle. that's simply the nature of the game we play, and i want to make sure everyone who posts understands that before derailing the thread with "you're probably just a bad teambuilder" ad homenim arguments.
Deoxys-D only needs to run one answer to his various answers because his team should takes care of the rest. Are you going to run CB Tyranitar, Donphan, Tentacruel, and Starmie, all to take care of Deo-D? If you are, then your team-building is either complete garbage or he's that fucking good and therefore he should be banned.
Alternately, you prepare for the single threat to Deo-D's success that you see more than anything else, in which case you adapt to those rare alternate threats and go from there. It is not difficult to team-build with Deoxys-D which is the crux of the issue. When a Pokémon or condition plays the game for us, skill is reduced and that is above all else what we are looking to do in this metagame: Award the most skilled player, in every aspect of playing the game (team-building and execution), the victory. Deoxys-D undermines that and that is why we are suspecting him.
One more time: All talk of "Deoxys-D can't run 13 moves, so he can't answer everything, so he's obviously not broken" is a bullshit argument because the opposing player can't run every possible counter to him. In most scenarios, the opposing player will have ONE answer to Deoxys-D, and if it's something common like Scizor or Tyranitar, you can bet that the player using Deo-D will have accounted for Scizor and Tyranitar being common and either have Deoxys carry an answer or a teammate will have something to shut them down, letting Deoxys do his job.
Some of you might, rightly so, say that this is just good team-building. You wouldn't run DD Salamence without your team having an answer to Mamoswine, would you? Of course not. But DD Salamence needs substantial support, often multiple team members in order to pave the way for a sweep. Deoxys-D needs one-to-two Pokémon, at most, taken care of on the opposing team, which either he or a lone team mate of his can take care of. Imagine if Salamence could shut down Mamoswine reliably, but still had a full Dragon Dance set to take advantage of. That is what Deoxys-D does.
Alternately, you prepare for the single threat to Deo-D's success that you see more than anything else, in which case you adapt to those rare alternate threats and go from there. It is not difficult to team-build with Deoxys-D which is the crux of the issue. When a Pokémon or condition plays the game for us, skill is reduced and that is above all else what we are looking to do in this metagame: Award the most skilled player, in every aspect of playing the game (team-building and execution), the victory. Deoxys-D undermines that and that is why we are suspecting him.
One more time: All talk of "Deoxys-D can't run 13 moves, so he can't answer everything, so he's obviously not broken" is a bullshit argument because the opposing player can't run every possible counter to him. In most scenarios, the opposing player will have ONE answer to Deoxys-D, and if it's something common like Scizor or Tyranitar, you can bet that the player using Deo-D will have accounted for Scizor and Tyranitar being common and either have Deoxys carry an answer or a teammate will have something to shut them down, letting Deoxys do his job.
Some of you might, rightly so, say that this is just good team-building. You wouldn't run DD Salamence without your team having an answer to Mamoswine, would you? Of course not. But DD Salamence needs substantial support, often multiple team members in order to pave the way for a sweep. Deoxys-D needs one-to-two Pokémon, at most, taken care of on the opposing team, which either he or a lone team mate of his can take care of. Imagine if Salamence could shut down Mamoswine reliably, but still had a full Dragon Dance set to take advantage of. That is what Deoxys-D does.
Lavos
Banned deucer.
i think you're a little off here, to be honest the only thing deo-d needs in the form of "team support" is something to handle spinners, and it can handle 2/3 of the ou spinners with one set. sr / spikes / hp fire / psycho boost beats forretress and tentacruel, then pop on a scarftar for starmie and maybe gengar for random donphans plus nice insurance against lead taunt sash terrakion etc., and you're golden. deo-d doesn't really need support - rather, it's the thing that provides support for the rest of the team to do its job. having rocks up and one or two layers of spikes is often the difference from, say, lucario sweep and no lucario sweep. you do have the right idea overall in this post, though. deoxys-d's counters are few and far between, it can handle most of them by itself, and for the ones that it can't handle with the specific set that it's running, the team generally requires only one pokemon extra to check for that (and it's not like scarftar's only purpose is to beat starmie, it also checks the lati twins, opposing weather, unscarfed stuff, etc.)
hi kd
am i the only one who doesn't care about what stops deoxys-d based on what set or any of that crap? deoxys-d puts up hazards more effectively than anything else in the tier outside of maybe ferrothorn (and nah deoxys-d is better at hazard setting than ferro is so heh...) and then puts insane pressure on the opposing team. rocky helmet, surprise moves, trappers, ghosts etc this all fucks with spinners and puts insane pressure on them and rapid spin is already a fucking shit move when you only have 24 total for 50+ threats to work with.
like i could name 20 things that "can" beat deoxys-d based on their set like taunt 319 speed mew or maybe roost toxic xatu but at the end of the day, deoxys-d severely limits team building and puts unfair pressure on the opposing team to deal with his hazards.
i've played 1 match on suspect ladder so far so im not going to just claim that the non deoxys-d meta is that much better when i have barely gotten settled into it yet (although i actually had a great time in that 1 game because my god the game was actually decided by skill when i dont have to dedicate time to prepare for a busted hazard setter and then have useless shit when they dont have it) but actually being able to play pokemon without worrying about 1st turn hazards from a bulky fast mon that in the hands of a competent player is guaranteed to set them seems better to me
i think this also is a good summary of why i hate paper arguments in pokemon. there's too many variables in mons people try to put into numbers and its never accurate. deoxys-d is the poster boy of this.
like i could name 20 things that "can" beat deoxys-d based on their set like taunt 319 speed mew or maybe roost toxic xatu but at the end of the day, deoxys-d severely limits team building and puts unfair pressure on the opposing team to deal with his hazards.
i've played 1 match on suspect ladder so far so im not going to just claim that the non deoxys-d meta is that much better when i have barely gotten settled into it yet (although i actually had a great time in that 1 game because my god the game was actually decided by skill when i dont have to dedicate time to prepare for a busted hazard setter and then have useless shit when they dont have it) but actually being able to play pokemon without worrying about 1st turn hazards from a bulky fast mon that in the hands of a competent player is guaranteed to set them seems better to me
i think this also is a good summary of why i hate paper arguments in pokemon. there's too many variables in mons people try to put into numbers and its never accurate. deoxys-d is the poster boy of this.
Somewhat gimmicky, but DD Salamence on Rain Teams (which has Hydro Pump instead of Fire Blast) can actually survive Ice Shard if it has a Yache Berry. Then a Drizzle Hydro Pump can take out Mamoswine.
See? I knew Something was Fishy. Thanks for the Reply ^.^
I think it's absolutely a fair comparison. Hazards WIN the game for a lot of teams, most commonly heavy or hyper offense teams that so many Deoxys-Ds find a home in.
Scolipede:
Terrakion OHKOes, Pretty much Anything with a band + Fire Move OHKOes without it even lifting a finger. Literally any special STAB OHKOes it off the bat. Sableye just plain manhandles it. So does Skarmory.
Accelgor:
Anything with Prankster Written on it, treats it like a cute little cockroach. Xatu Takes Neutral from Bug Buzz so can stand there all day with Roost + Leftovers. Same Goes for Pokemon who treat it like Set Up bait, since Accelgor cannot do anything about them. GG.
Even assuming I have none of that Anything with taunt/spore/stun spore WILL limit it to one layer, so accelgor definitely cannot guarantee 2 layers. Sash or not.
Froslass:
Scizor Bullet Punch+Pursuit. The Most common set in OU ever. Same For Tyranitar. You can only choose between Destiny Bond and Spikes here since you'll only be getting a single turn. And I'm assuming Focus Sash here, even though the most used Froslass item is Lefties. Any pokemon in exitence that happens to know Trick.
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