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Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by forestflamerunner, May 14, 2012.

  1. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    One other thing that just occurred to me about multitype is that it completely fucks up prebattle planning. Even if you know what type the multityper is once it switches in, you don't figure this out in team preview. In this generation, a lot of the battle planning occurs before the first mon is sent into play; you figure out which Pokemon won't be too useful this round or what opposing pokes you can check with what Pokemon and stuff in the similar vein. When an opponent has a poke packing multitype, they could have one of any pokes, and depending on the type. Meanwhile while your wondering which one of your six pokes could best handle the damn multityper your opponent is able to break apart your team accurately and will have a huge competitive edge when the battle actually starts. Also in every match there become points where you need to sack something because of a misplay. Generally you can get away with sacking your least useful Pokemon but if your opponent has a multitype poke you don't know what your least useful poke is. This makes it. Very easy to accidentally sacrifice your check to the multityper, costing you a match. This unpredictability makes me now believe that multitype actually belongs in S tier even though I'm the one who originally placed it in B tier. For that reason, for the first time in this process, I am nominating multitype for S Tier.
  2. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    I'm sorry to inform you guys that I will be away from Internet connection for a few days, therefore the voting period will not start tomorrow as I planned. Feel free to continue discussion. I will start the voting period at first available convenience
  3. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I honestly don't know if multitype is S tier worthy. I really think it comes down to using a plate as an item that pretty much limits its diversity, and once you actually switch it out (if it changes color like Arcues) your opponent even knows your exact set. The pokemon also needs the correct moves to take advantage of multitype. Finally a lot of pokemon like there type, I doubt Tyranitar or Terrakion for example would ever want to lose their type. Yes some pokemon it would be outright godly, but for most, they would rather keep their original abilities.

    Since we have plenty of time to discuss it and I got an "ok" from Alexwolf, I’m going to:
    nominate Leaf Guard

    As I said before it only works under the sun making it pretty unreliable, but really the clinching factor is the fact that rest doesn't work for it, which makes it not B tier worthy.
  4. pharaohcalvin

    pharaohcalvin

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    Well, MultiType is in an odd spot, because we aren't sure how it would work, but given Arceus shows its type change...and the forced plate I think I am going to have to say.....

    Nominated MultiType for A tier.
  5. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    My stance remains on No Guard and Compound Eyes:

    I nominate No Guard for A Tier.

    I nominate Compound Eyes for A Tier.
  6. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    Sorry about that unexpected Delay you guys, but I'm back and we can now start the voting phase. The slated abilities are Harvest, Compound Eyes, No Guard, Marvel Scale, Multitype (Don't Know Typing), and Multitype(Know Typing), Static, Flame Body, Leaf Guard,and Bad Dreams. I split up Multitype because we do not know exactly how its mechanics work, so to Accurately tier the abilities, we will Tier it based on both possible Mechanics. Do Not Know typing is where you Don't Know typing once the Multityper switches in, whilethe Know Typing means you know the Multityper's typing once it switches in. I'll add a section explaining this difference in the OP after we retire these abilities. Like always, votes must be in bold or they will not count and you can vote Change Tier, Do Not Change Tier, or Abstain. The voting Period will last 48 hours. Have fun.
  7. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    My Votes


    Harvest- Change Tier
    Compound Eyes- Do Not change Tier
    No Guard- Change Tier
    Marvel Scale- Do Not Change Tier
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Change Tier
    Static- Do not Change Tier
    Flame Body-Do not Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- Do not Change Tier
    Bad Dreams- Do Not Change Tier
  8. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Uh I hate to say this but your missing out on quite a few nominated abilties, I noticed this because of the lack of static and flame body. I do realize quite a few abilites got little discussion and probably don't diserve a tier change (like heatproof and solar power), but I wasn't aware that there was a discussion requirement. Also some abilties got no discussion since we all agreed on their change pretty much like bad dreams.

    Edit: Ok.


    Harvest- Do Not Change Tier
    Compound Eyes- Change Tier
    No Guard- Change Tier
    Marvel Scale- Do Not Change Tier
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Change Tier
    Static- Change Tier
    Flame Body- Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- Change Tier
    Bad Dreams- Change Tier
  9. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    There is no discussion requirement but there needs to be a reasonable foundation for nominations. I did miss a couple abilities and that is being fixed, but some abilities like flame boost and heatproof will not be slated.
  10. pharaohcalvin

    pharaohcalvin

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    Harvest- Change Tier
    Compound Eyes- Change Tier
    No Guard- Do not Change Tier
    Marvel Scale- Do Not Change Tier
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Change Tier
    Static- Do not Change Tier
    Flame Body-Do not Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- Do not Change Tier
    Bad Dreams- Do not Change Tier
  11. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    Harvest- Change Tier
    Compound Eyes- Change Tier
    No Guard- Change Tier
    Marvel Scale- Do Not Change Tier
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Change Tier
    Static- Do not Change Tier
    Flame Body-Do not Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- Do not Change Tier
    Bad Dreams- Do Not Change Tier
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Harvest- Change Tier
    Compound Eyes- Change Tier
    No Guard- Change Tier
    Marvel Scale- Change Tier
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Change Tier
    Static- Do not Change Tier
    Flame Body-Do not Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- Do not Change Tier
    Bad Dreams- Do not Change Tier
  13. melvni

    melvni
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    Would you mind explaining what exactly you mean be 'a reasonable foundation for nominations'? I ask because I seem to be the only one not understanding it since all the nominations that didn't make the ballot were made by me, and I'd like to have a better grasp on this for future rounds. I can understand Flare Boost since I even said in my nomination that I wasn't sure about it and discussion really cleared up why Guts is just flat out better, but the other ones I felt I tried to explain as best as I could and I don't understand the rationale for at least putting them up for a vote.

    The only argument I saw against Heatproof was Jimera0 stating that "a single extra resistance isn’t going to change the game terribly often" which is simply unknowable due to the fact Bronzong is the only thing that gets it and it has the superior levitate and in any metagame where you can give any ability to anything, people are going to use Flash Fire for the immunity or Thick Fat for the ice resistance. Every single other resistance or immunity granting ability is A Tier. Why is heatproof so different it doesn't even merit a vote? In regards to filter and solid rock, the onsite abilitydex apparently views them so highly that it begins its description of Solid Rock's competitive use by stating it's "another fantastic ability that is wasted." I don't know what the process is for getting ability analyses on site, but does an ability Smogon itself describes as 'fantastic' not even deserve a vote for A tier?

    The one I have the biggest problem with however is Solar Power. The two arguments against it I saw were that it puts you on too fast a timer with the 12.5% HP loss per turn and that life orb both gives a similar boost without hurting you if you don't attack and can't be run well in conjunction with Solar Power. However, if you're so worried about the timer or recoil, if you run Solar Power and leftovers you're losing only 6.25% HP per turn (meaning you'll survive 16 turns max instead of 10 attacks with life orb), still have the power of choice specs without being locked into a move, and actually gain back HP if they change the whether on you to take away your power boost. Plus, if you run it with specs, anything with more than base 53 spAtk can have more special attack than an itemless Deoxys-A. Frankly from my perspective the ability either makes you less frail than guts does (since you can get the boost even if you're running leftovers and will thus last longer than something with a status orb) or is more reliable than guts is (since you can control to an extent whether the sun is up but cannot control whether you're statused if you don't run a status orb). Why doesn't this deserve a vote?

    tl;dr: I feel like, with the exception of flare boost, the abilities I nominated are great abilities (or at least up to the standards of A Tier) that just happen to have really crappy distribution. Heatproof is given to one thing that has a better ability and the holders of Solid Rock, Filter, and Solar Power are all deeply flawed by the standards of the current OU metagame. I would really appreciate it if you explained what I would have needed to do in my nominations to give them 'a reasonable foundation' so I can do better next round.
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Anyway, on to my votes:
    Harvest- Change Tier
    Compound Eyes- Change Tier
    No Guard- Change Tier
    Marvel Scale- Change Tier
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Do Not Change Tier
    Static- Change Tier
    Flame Body-Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- Change Tier
    Bad Dreams- Change Tier
  14. WaterBomb

    WaterBomb because exploding camels wasn't enough
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    I just have a small nomination, but I believe Download should be moved from A to B tier. My reasoning behind this is that while a free boost is never a negative, which stat gets boosted is entirely dependent on your opponent's pokemon. Since most pokemon aren't mixed attackers this ability has shaky consistency. Even if Download promotes the creation of some mixed attacking sets for that pokemon, they still would need usable stats in both Att and SpAtt, which isn't all that common either. I know we're assessing the abilities by themselves so I'm not using current users (Porygons) as examples, but you have to evaluate the entire pool of pokemon in the game to see how many could really use it. If you take all the pokemon in the game, and then remove all the ones that only have one (or no) usable attack stat, the list gets drastically smaller.

    tl;dr version: Download would only be a guaranteed benefit on a mixed attacker, a role not all that many pokemon have the stats to manage. It only benefits a specialized attacker situationally as the boosted stat is dependent on the opponent's pokemon, and it doesn't benefit support pokemon at all. Because of its semi-unpredictability and small pool of pokemon that could really abuse it, I believe this ability should be in B tier (but not lower than that).

    Download - Change tier from A to B
  15. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    Just some general notes:

    Snow warning is not really S-tier material. While it has some benefits (Ice Body, Snow Cloak, and Blizzard are the only 3 that come to mind) and changes the weather, the three other weathers in S-tier are better in every way and deserve to be there for their support capabilities. There simply isn't enough reason to justify Snow Warning being that high up - no matter which Pokemon had it, it doesn't provide enough benefits to be ranked that high. I would drop it to A.

    I also don't see Prankster as S-tier material either. It is a great ability no doubt, but it can't do more than function in a supporting role. You can't actually abuse it with attacking moves so you have to make do with a Sleeper move, Entry Hazards, SubSeed, potentially Encore, and Taunt. These are all very capable of getting you advantage in a game, but these aren't impossible tasks without Prankster. I feel S-Tier should be for making the impossible possible. For example, Pure Power and Huge Power double attack with no cost. They simply double the Pokemon and make it stronger without any setbacks. Drought and Drizzle can weaken Water- and Fire-type moves respectively, and have a myriad of support purposes while also boosting their elemental attack's powers but they never run out - they last until the game ends. I would move Prankster to A-Tier because it makes what is already possible much much easier. I would expect Rain Dance and Sunny Day to be arguments against that but 1.) They waste a turn 2.) They aren't permanent.

    Air Lock and Cloud 9 should both be A-tier. My reasoning is simply 4/14 (hopefully 3 though) of S-Tier are completely shut down by this B-tier ability which nothing else can take claim to. 5 more abilities are shut down in A-tier. This kind of ability countering is noteworthy enough to move this up in my opinion.

    that's all i have for now, i'll post more when im looking at this list later.
  16. Twins

    Twins

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    @kd24: You missed the voting and discussion periods for those abilities by a few pages. Check back for reasonable explanations as to why they are in S Rank.

    Harvest- Change Tier- Easily abusable, and is even better especially considering all the game changing effects berries have.
    Compound Eyes- Change Tier a 30% boost in accuracy helps just about every pokemon in the game
    No Guard- Change Tier even better than Compound Eyes, because your moves simply never miss. The opponent getting the same effect is small price to pay.
    Marvel Scale- Do Not Change Tier Makes RestTalk much more effective by increasing walling capability exponentially)
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier S Rank for sure for its unpredictability and versatility.
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Change Tier A Tier at least, because it still is versatile as hell.
    Static- Do not Change Tier Seems fine here. Could be game changing, but often more useless than not.
    Flame Body-Do not Change Tier Arguably better than Static, but still not quite good enough.
    Leaf Guard- Do not Change Tier Despite being outclassed by Hydration in all respects, it still is a quite good ability.
    Bad Dreams- Abstain Not entirely sure. 12.5% passive damage every turn is very nice, but the opponent can just switch. But that gives you a free turn to set up. Also, you need to be rather fast to use this well.
  17. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Actually you can abuse it with (albeit very limited and not found on current Prankster pokes) an attacking move, Nature Power. Imagine priority Earthquake ;.; I think I pointed this out earlier, but offensive Pokes can easily make use of Prankster with boosting moves and Substitute. Not only do these moves become untauntable for 1 turn, but they can be used to dodge priority. A good example is Tornadus Bulking Up in the face a Bullet Punch. Now boosting yourself to dodge damage from priority is definitely something that wasn't possible without Prankster.
  18. WaterBomb

    WaterBomb because exploding camels wasn't enough
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    Deoxys-A @ Huge Power...*shudders*
  19. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    Harvest- Change Tier
    Compound Eyes- Change Tier
    No Guard- Change Tier
    Marvel Scale- Do Not Change Tier
    Multitype (Do Not Know Typing)-Change Tier
    Multitype (Know Typing)- Change Tier
    Static- Do not Change Tier
    Flame Body-Do not Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- Do not Change Tier
    Bad Dreams- Change Tier
  20. forestflamerunner

    forestflamerunner Ain't no rest for the wicked
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    Harvest: 7 Change Tier, 1 Do Not Change Tier
    Compound Eyes-7 Change Tier, 1 Do Not Change Tier
    No Guard: 7 Change Tier, 1 Do Not Change Tier
    Marvel Scale: 2 Change Tier, 6 Do Not Change Tier
    Multitype( Do Not KnowTyping)-8 Change Tier
    Multitype- KnowTyping- 7 Change Tier, 1 Do Not Change Tier
    Static: 2 Change Tier, 6 Do Not Change Tier
    Flame Body: 2 Change Tier, 6 Do Not Change Tier
    Leaf Guard- 2 Change Tier,6 Do Not Change Tier
    Bad Dreams: 3 Change Tier, 4 Do Not Change Tier, 1 Abstain

    We will now be voting on where to place Harvest, Compound Eyes,No Guard, and Multitype (both forms). Most of You should remember how this part works, but here is an example just in case:
    Move (insert Ability) to ______ Tier.
    Repeat this format for every ability, and remember to bold your post. This period will last 24 Hours.

    My Votes

    Move Harvest to A Tier
    Move Compound Eyes to A Tier
    Move No Guard to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Do not Know Typing) to S Tier
    Move Multitype (Know Typing) to S Tier
  21. KurashiDragon

    KurashiDragon

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    Move Harvest to A Tier
    Move Compound Eyes to A Tier
    Move No Guard to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Do not Know Typing) to S Tier
    Move Multitype (Know Typing) to S Tier
  22. melvni

    melvni
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    Move Harvest to A Tier
    Move Compound Eyes to A Tier
    Move No Guard to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Do not Know Typing) to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Know Typing) to A Tier


    Multitype is a great ability and it's going to make some stuff that's unusable due to a poor typing or whatnot good. However, unless you have everything other than typing going for you, it's not going to bring you up to usability from the bottom of the usage stats by itself. S Tier abilities have to make unusable Pokemon viable often, and I don't think there are enough things held back only by their typing that Multitype is going to do that, especially since you have to forgo a normal item to use it (so no lefties/life orb/choice whatever) and a lot of things only have coverage in certain types (without Judgement like Arceus, they're going to have limited options if they still want to be able to use STAB).

    Multitype if you do know the typing is going to give a nice boost to things that are already decent or would be if not held back by a poor typing, but it won't make you use things like Sableye or Ninetales just because they have it. Multitype if you don't know the typing might even break things that are already strong threats since countering them will be that much harder, even if they lose their normal STAB, but, once again, no one is going to care what type that Ninetales-esque mon is as they kill it anyway without a second thought.
  23. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Move Harvest to A Tier
    Move Compound Eyes to A Tier
    Move No Guard to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Do not Know Typing) to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Know Typing) to A Tier


    Knowing the typing clearly would make it better, I don't think it would give it the edge though to be an S-tier ability.
  24. Jimera0

    Jimera0 You don't understand, Edgar is the one in the hole!
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    Move Harvest to A Tier
    Move Compound Eyes to A Tier
    Move No Guard to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Do not Know Typing) to A Tier
    Move Multitype (Know Typing) to A Tier
  25. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
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    Has no one mentioned Pokemon Showdown's ability rating system?

    They were discussed in this thread: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3454964

    These are the values it uses, ranging from -2 to 5:

    Adaptability: 3.5
    Aftermath: 3
    Air Lock: 3
    Analytic: 1
    Anger Point: 2
    Anticipation: 1
    Arena Trap: 5
    Bad Dreams: 2
    Battle Armor: 1
    Big Pecks: 1
    Blaze: 2
    Chlorophyll: 3.5
    Clear Body: 2
    Cloud Nine: 3
    Color Change: 2
    Compoundeyes: 3.5
    Contrary: 4
    Cursed Body: 2
    Cute Charm: 2
    Damp: 1
    Defeatist: -1
    Defiant: 2
    Download: 4
    Drizzle: 5
    Drought: 5
    Dry Skin: 3
    Early Bird: 2.5
    Effect Spore: 2
    Filter: 3
    Flame Body: 2
    Flare Boost: 3
    Flash Fire: 3
    Flower Gift: 3
    Forecast: 4
    Forewarn: 1
    Friend Guard: 0
    Frisk: 1.5
    Gluttony: 1.5
    Guts: 4
    Harvest: 4
    Healer: 0
    Heatproof: 2.5
    Heavy Metal: 0
    Honey Gather: 0
    Huge Power: 5
    Hustle: 3
    Hydration: 4
    Hyper Cutter: 2
    Ice Body: 3
    Illuminate: 0
    Illusion: 4.5
    Immunity: 1
    Imposter: 5
    Infiltrator: 1
    Inner Focus: 1
    Insomnia: 2
    Intimidate: 4
    Iron Barbs: 3
    Iron Fist: 3
    Justified: 2
    Keen Eye: 1
    Klutz: 1.5
    Leaf Guard: 3
    Levitate: 3.5
    Light Metal: 1
    Lightningrod: 3
    Limber: 2
    Liquid Ooze: 1
    Magic Bounce: 5
    Magic Guard: 4.5
    Magma Armor: 0.5
    Magnet Pull: 5
    Marvel Scale: 3
    Minus: 0
    Mold Breaker: 3
    Moody: 5
    Motor Drive: 3
    Moxie: 4
    Multiscale: 4
    Multitype: 5
    Mummy: 1
    Natural Cure: 4
    No Guard: 4.1
    Normalize: -1
    Oblivious: 0.5
    Overcoat: 1
    Overgrow: 2
    Own Tempo: 1
    Pickup: 0
    Pickpocket: 1
    Plus: 0
    Poison Heal: 4
    Poison Point: 2
    Poison Touch: 2
    Prankster: 4
    Pressure: 1
    Pure Power: 5
    Quick Feet: 3
    Rain Dish: 3
    Rattled: 2
    Reckless: 3
    Regenerator: 4.5
    Rivalry: 2.5
    Rock Head: 3.5
    Rough Skin: 3
    Run Away: 0
    Sand Force: 3
    Sand Rush: 3.5
    Sand Stream: 5
    Sand Veil: 3
    Sap Sipper: 3
    Scrappy: 3
    Serene Grace: 4
    Shadow Tag: 5
    Shed Skin: 3
    Sheer Force: 4
    Shell Armor: 1
    Shield Dust: 2
    Simple: 4
    Skill Link: 4
    Slow Start: -2
    Sniper: 1
    Snow Cloak: 2
    Snow Warning: 4.5
    Solar Power: 3
    Solid Rock: 3
    Soundproof: 2
    Speed Boost: 4.5
    Stall: -1
    Static: 2
    Steadfast: 1
    Stench: 0
    Sticky Hold: 1
    Storm Drain: 3
    Sturdy: 3
    Suction Cups: 3
    Super Luck: 1
    Swarm: 2
    Swift Swim: 3.5
    Synchronize: 3
    Tangled Feet: 1
    Technician: 4
    Telepathy: 0
    Teravolt: 3
    Thick Fat: 3
    Tinted Lens: 4.5
    Torrent: 2
    Toxic Boost: 3
    Trace: 3.5
    Truant: -2
    Turboblaze: 3
    Unaware: 2
    Unburden: 3.5
    Unnerve: 1
    Victory Star: 2
    Vital Spirit: 1
    Volt Absorb: 3
    Water Absorb: 3
    Water Veil: 1.5
    Weak Armor: 0
    White Smoke: 2
    Wonder Guard: 5
    Wonder Skin: 1
    Zen Mode: -1
    Mountaineer: 3.5
    Rebound: 4.5
    Persistent: 4​

    Ratings and how they work (open)


    -2: Extremely detrimental
    The sort of ability that relegates Pokemon with Uber-level BSTs
    into NU.
    ex. Slow Start, Truant

    -1: Detrimental
    An ability that does more harm than good.
    ex. Defeatist, Klutz

    0: Useless
    An ability with no net effect on a Pokemon during a battle.
    ex. Pickup, Illuminate

    1: Ineffective
    An ability that has a minimal effect. Should never be chosen over
    any other ability.
    ex. Pressure, Damp

    2: Situationally useful
    An ability that can be useful in certain situations.
    ex. Blaze, Insomnia

    3: Useful
    An ability that is generally useful.
    ex. Volt Absorb, Iron Fist

    4: Very useful
    One of the most popular abilities. The difference between 3 and 4
    can be ambiguous.
    ex. Technician, Intimidate

    5: Essential
    The sort of ability that defines metagames.
    ex. Drizzle, Magnet Pull

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