Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)

[StallMandibuzz]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do not Change Tier

 

[melvni]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do not Change Tier

I understand we're attempting to apply these tiers in the sense of some generic "OU quality" Pokemon, but looking over the current OU as an example, Moxie doesn't seem to make enough things better to meet the standards of an A tier ability. I've divided OU into three categories, things it would help, things it might, and things it wouldn't and it just doesn't seem like it would do enough to fit the criterion of being able to be slapped on to just about anything and making it better.

Definitely made better than without it: Haxorus, Conkeldurr, Salamence (already has it ScarfMoxieMence is great), Metagross, Dragonite, Tyranitar, Mamoswine, Terrakion, Landorus, Mienshao, Tornadus, Lucario, Hydreigon, Infernape, Gliscor, Scrafty, Virizion

Maybe made better: Scizor (doesn't do much for its choice sets (actually probably makes them a little worse) since, outside of a bullet punch endgame sweep it's either switching out with uturn or being forced out the next turn when the opponent switches in, Swords Dance would probably appreciate it though and there could be options I'm missing.), Breloom (loses all the pseudo-bulk of poison heal, but it could still Mach Punch sweep in the same vein as it does in dreamworld with Technician), Gyarados (Moxiedos sees barely any usage, but that probably has a lot to do with Intimidate being better), Toxicroak (it wouldn't hurt it, but it would lose its current niche), Jirachi, Celebi, Cloyster, Heatran, Venusaur

Not Made Better: Donphan (with 50 spd its only going to get any benefit out of it other than a slight boost to its weak ice shard if it runs some sort of rock polish set), Ferrothorn, Forretress, Latios, Gastrodon, Dugtrio, Latias, Skarmory, Ninetales, Politoed, Starmie, Tentacruel, Magnezone, Reuniclus, Rotom-W, Jolteon, Gengar, Espeon, Vaporeon, Jellicent, Volcarona, Alakazam, Blissey Chansey

That's at least 24 of the 50 members of the current OU who get pretty much no benefit from moxie and at most 26 who do. I don't see how a ratio like that speaks towards an ability that "can generally be slapped on any Pokémon and that Pokémon would be better for it." While I've come around on Quick Feet (since no one isn't helped by being immune to paralysis speed drops), I would make a similar argument for Guts, which I believe also benefits approximately the same OU pokemon (though Heatran at least would definitely fall to not made better since it can't use Status Orbs), but no one else nominated it and I appreciate that a two nomination threshold for voting on something is reasonable.

 

[Acritter]

Change the thread title.

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Change Tier
Quick Feet: Change Tier
Sturdy: Do Not Change Tier
Speed Boost: Change Tier
Magic Guard: Change Tier

 

[Scrawly]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Change Tier
Quick Feet: Change Tier
Sturdy: Abstain
Speed Boost: Change Tier
Magic Guard: Change Tier

 

[doughboy]

Gyarados (Moxiedos sees barely any usage, but that probably has a lot to do with Intimidate being better)

That's at least 24 of the 50 members of the current OU who get pretty much no benefit from moxie and at most 26 who do. I don't see how a ratio like that speaks towards an ability that "can generally be slapped on any Pokémon and that Pokémon would be better for it."

I would like to point out that your first statement is completely untrue:
| Ability | 56.2 | Intimidate |
| Ability | 43.8 | Moxie |

Almost half of Gyarados use Moxie, I wouldn't classify that as "barely in use".

Anyway I disagree with the sentiment that we should only be looking for the greatest amount of members who can benefit from an ability. I would argue that we should take more into account how good an ability is for the Pokemon it is designed for. Really, how great is the effect of that ability on that Pokemon or a certain type of Pokemon?

Moxie itself is actually a really good example of this. If you take a look at who has Moxie, you will notice that the one with the lowest attacking stat is Mightyena with base 90. GF knew what Pokemon this ability would be designed around. The effects on these types of Pokes has been stellar (paticularly Honchkrow and Mence).

Pokemon aren't going to use the "antithesis abilitiy" of what they are designed to do. Just because some Pokemon can't abuse in OU (zam chansey) who do not even have the stats oriented (this goes into the specfic stats thing) doesn't make it a lower tier ability. Almost every physical attacker in the game, including almost all of them with Choice Scarf, would love Moxie which makes it A-rank in my eyes.

 

[forestflamerunner]

The votes are in:
Sand force: 16 Change Tier, 1 Do Not ChangeTier
Mold breaker: 11 Change Tier, 6 Do Not ChangeT ier
Moxie: 3 Change Tier, 13 Do Not Change Tier, 1 Abstain
magnet pull: 3 Change Tier, 14 Do Not Change Tier
Quick feet: 6 Change Tier, 10 Do Not Change Tier, 1 Abstain
Sturdy: 11 Change Tier, 5 Do Not Change Tier, 1 Abstain
Speed Boost: 2 Change Tier, 14 Do Not Change Tier, 1 Abstain
Magic Guard: 4 Change Tier, 12 Do Not Change Tier, 1 Abstain

We will have a 24 hour voting period to decide where to put Sand Force, Mold Breaker, and Sturdy. Your Votes should look something like this:

Move (insert ability) to ____ Tier. Make sure to bold your vote. Here is a sample (and my)ballot.

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B tier
Move Sturdy to B tier

 

[alexwolf]

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B tier
Move Sturdy to B tier

 

[Naix]

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B Tier
Move Sturdy to C Tier

Sturdy's just too difficult to activate to be allowed in B Tier, especially considering that, unless you have wish support or your Sturdy-mon has a recovery move (which offenseve 'mons shouldn't, because they'd miss out on coverage) Sturdy will only come into play once per battle. The others are fine in B Tier.

 

[melvni]

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B Tier
Move Sturdy to C Tier

I assume we're also moving Turboblaze and Terravolt since they're clones of Mold Breaker, in which case I would also want to Move Turboblaze and Terravolt to B Tier

I would like to point out that your first statement is completely untrue:
| Ability | 56.2 | Intimidate |
| Ability | 43.8 | Moxie |

Almost half of Gyarados use Moxie, I wouldn't classify that as "barely in use".

Anyway I disagree with the sentiment that we should only be looking for the greatest amount of members who can benefit from an ability. I would argue that we should take more into account how good an ability is for the Pokemon it is designed for. Really, how great is the effect of that ability on that Pokemon or a certain type of Pokemon?

Moxie itself is actually a really good example of this. If you take a look at who has Moxie, you will notice that the one with the lowest attacking stat is Mightyena with base 90. GF knew what Pokemon this ability would be designed around. The effects on these types of Pokes has been stellar (paticularly Honchkrow and Mence).

Pokemon aren't going to use the "antithesis abilitiy" of what they are designed to do. Just because some Pokemon can't abuse in OU (zam chansey) who do not even have the stats oriented (this goes into the specfic stats thing) doesn't make it a lower tier ability. Almost every physical attacker in the game, including almost all of them with Choice Scarf, would love Moxie which makes it A-rank in my eyes.

You're right, I didn't realize how popular MoxieDos is. I guess I figured no one really uses it since whenever I see people mention Gyarados sets, they mention ones with Intimidate.

I know Moxie (and Guts for that matter) are great abilities for physical attackers (in fact for speedy ones, or, in Moxie's case, ones holding choice scarf, it's amazing). My concern was over the fact that the A tier definition doesn't say that an A tier ability can generally be slapped on a Pokémon with the right stat spread and that Pokémon would be better for it or that an A tier ability improves the type of Pokemon its designed for, but instead states an A tier ability "can generally be slapped on any Pokémon and that Pokémon would be better for it." I don't feel like Moxie (or Guts) quite meets that standard since I find it hard to argue an ability useless to around half of all Pokemon generally makes a Pokemon better (immunity/resistance granting abilites improve the defensive typing of anything with them, Poison Heal generally increases the survivability of anything with it bar poison and steel types, etc.). Regardless, I appreciate that others view this differently and I've been outvoted so it's a moot point, but I thought I'd attempt to explain my reasoning a bit better before we moved on.

 

[Twins]

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Sturdy to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B Tier

Hide

I really don't think Mold Breaker should be moved down a tier. It negates a whole lot of abilities, even defensive ones like Magic Bounce and Water Absorb. Gamefreak just hasn't given it to a diverse set of pokemon yet.

VaporeonIce did a good job of explaining it, so I guess I'll agree to move it down.

 

[VaporeonIce]

I really don't think Mold Breaker should be moved down a tier. It negates a whole lot of abilities, even defensive ones like Magic Bounce and Water Absorb. Gamefreak just hasn't given it to a diverse set of pokemon yet.

Mold Breaker negates a ton of abilities, but for pretty much every Pokemon that gets it, only one of those negations is useful. Either you're using status moves/hazards to negate Magic Bounce (and Magic Bounce has horrible distribution, meaning negating it is rarely a factor), or it negates type-immunity abilities. Sure, you could run a Mold Breaker set with Surf/Fire Blast/Thunder/Earth Power (on our hypothetical random Pokemon gets all four of those moves and Mold Breaker), but how useful would that be? The only commonly seen Flash Fire Pokemon is Heatran, and the rest of the Flash Fire Pokemon resist Fire. Heatran has enough bulk that it doesn't really care about Fire moves, unless they're STAB and sun-boosted. Water Absorb and Storm Drain go almost exclusively to Pokemon that already resist Water (with the notable exception of Gastrodon and the non-notable exception of Quagsire). Jellicent and Vaporeon are too bulky to care about resisted Water moves, meaning only Gastrodon actually matters; again, it's pretty damn bulky. If you're not at least backed by Rain, and preferably Rain with STAB, it will stall you out with Recover. Then Electric moves...Jolteon's the only remotely common Pokemon with an Electric immunity ability, and it already resists Electric. Stopping Volt Absorb on Jolteon just isn't that useful, given that it's not very common (or particularly threatening). That leaves Levitate. I admit that negating Levitate is very cool, but given that your ability is telegraphed to the opponent, it's often not super crippling. Usually, only one of the four mentioned moves is going to be strong enough to mess up the switch-in if it has the type-immunity ability.

So really, in my mind, negating any ability besides Levitate is so situational that it's almost a non-factor. Negating Levitate is only useful if you have a powerful enough Earthquake/Earth Power to really capitalize on it, and even then, you're only hitting Gengar, Lati@s, Rotom-W (and -C), and Hydreigon, many of whom most Pokemon can't switch into at all. I think it's been voted out of the A-tier with a pretty good reason. It would probably be most useful on a Pokemon that carries both Stealth Rock and Earthquake, but honestly, the potential to negate Magic Bounce would almost never come up in most matches.

That said, here are my votes:

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B Tier
Move Sturdy to B Tier

Sturdy is a reliable ability on leads, which is the primary reason I think it's good enough to be B tier. It's hard to activate outside of the lead position, but having a free Sash to help a lead lay down hazards or attack is pretty cool.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B tier
Move Sturdy to B tier

While I love increasing my post count, I really don't see the point of this second vote. If need be to see what tier a "change tier ability" should simply be added into the intial vote.

Perhaps a set up like Ability: keep/move to ____ tier just to start out

 

[dragonuser]

Move Sand Force to B Tier
Move Mold Breaker to B Tier
Move Sturdy to B Tier

All three seem to fit the description of a Class B ability, as they require a specialized moveset/stat spread but are useful in battles and sometimes game changing (seperating them from a Class C ability).

 

[forestflamerunner]

These abilities will be moved to B Tier. The B Tier discussion and nomination period will now begin and last five days remember to put your nominations in bold.

 

[alexwolf]

You forgot to put Terravolt and Turboblaze in the B Tier...

 

[pharaohcalvin]

I am just going to say, B tier looks good ^^

 

[melvni]

Compoundeyes to A Tier - There are better accuracy boosting abilities out there (see no guard below), but Compoundeyes in my mind definitely falls under the category of something that doesn't require a specially tailored stat spread or movepool and which would generally improve pretty much anything it was slapped on. Anything with above 77% accuracy will always hit, meaning 100% accurate Fire Blasts and Stone Edges to name a few for offensive threats and 100% accurate Sleep Powders, Toxics, and Leech Seeds for the more defensively inclined. Even below 77%, the accuracy drop off still turns low accurate moves into decent options. Who wouldn't like 91% accurate Thunders, Blizzards, or Focus Blasts? I feel like people aren't realizing just how good Compoundeyes could be because of its distribution to crapmons and Galvantula (who appreciates the Thunder accuracy boost, but, like many other 5th gen mons, has a narrow movepool and thus doesn't really have any other low accuracy moves to abuse).

Heatproof to A Tier - All the rest of the type resistance or immunity granting abilities are A Tier and I don't see any reason why Heatproof shouldn't be also. Do you need a specially tailored stat spread or movepool to take advantage of a fire resistance and halved burn damage? No. Could you generally slap a fire resistance and halved burn damage on anything and they would be better for it? Yes. I could see someone arguing that Heatproof isn't A Tier since Flash Fire out classes it outside of the slight benefit of halved burn damage which a non-fire type who got flash fire would not be able to take advantage of, but from what I can tell we aren't supposed to be lowering the tier of an ability just because it's outclassed by something in a higher tier (see, for instance, Shadow Tag and Arena Trap) so I don't think that should be a consideration.

Filter and Solid Rock to A Tier - Once again, you don't need a specially tailored stat spread or movepool to take advantage of taking 3/4 damage from super effective moves and generally anything would be better if it had this ability slapped on it. I'd actually argue that a half-resistance to super effective attacks is actually less specialized than type immunities or resistance abilities that are A-tier since the chances are far greater (though both are highly likely) that your opponent carries at least something that can hit you super effectively than that your opponent has a specific type attack on his team.

Flare Boost to A Tier - Flare Boost is Guts for Special Attackers that only works with burn. On the one hand, Guts, regardless of my opinion on the matter, is A Tier and this is a very similar ability, but, on the other hand, since it only works with one status condition, I'm not entirely sure whether it should be moved to A tier. Regardless, I believe it has enough going for it to be at least voted on.

No Guard to A Tier - You thought 91% accurate Thunders, Blizzards, and Focus Blasts were good, well now try 100% accurate ones. And that's not all. Now, not only are your pretty inaccurate but still usable moves perfect accuracy, but so are your moves with such bad accuracy that you wouldn't touch them with a ten foot pole (can you imagine the power of Inferno or Zap Cannon abuse, Machamp's Dynamic Punch is bad enough). Sure not everything has moves with accuracy that bad, but most things usually have something that they could utilize better if the accuracy was better and I believe that level of improvement merits A tier.

Marvel Scale to A Tier - Like Guts and Quick Feet, Marvel Scale boosts you if you get statused, though in this case it's a defensive, not an offensive, stat that gets the boost. Once again, this is an ability that would make anything with it regardless of stat spread or movepool (barring the things with the shittiest of shitty defensive stats) and that would indeed generally benefit anything it was slapped on. If an ability can give Milotic, who has 95/79 defenses, the ability to take some of the strongest physical pummelings in the game, I believe that merits A Tier designation.

Solar Power to A Tier - I feel Solar Power has a lot in common with many A Tier abilities. Like Guts, it provides you with a x1.5 boost to an attack stat at the cost, most likely in Guts's case, of some of your health each turn. It is weather dependent, but so are Chlorophyll, Flower Gift, Hydration, Sand Rush, and Swift Swim, all solid A Tier abilities. Dry Skin is actually detrimental in the wrong weather conditions. As such, since anything using special, non-water type moves would benefit from this in sunlight, I feel like it also merits A Tier designation.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

I thought I posted this already, but maybe my internet bugged out. If for some reason a mod deleted it I apologize.

Static to C tier
Flame Body to C tier

Yes, burns and paralysis is superior to other status affections, but in all honestly these abilities are to situational and similar to C tier abilities like effect spore and poison point to be in B tier. Since we are going by a mindset of "don't tier differently if it just outclasses a fellow ability" I say this is all the more reason to place these down with their brethren in C tier.

Also something I would like to discuss is white smoke/clear body and defiant. On paper these 2 abilities don't seem similar at all, but in the metagame they pretty much are. The only serious stat reduction going around is intimidate. With defiant you would decrease once and then get 2 boosts in attack, one boost over all. While with white smoke/clear body nothing happens. This warrants either defiant moving up, or white smoke moving down. I would like some discussion on this before I make any nominations.

Other abilities I wish to discuss on leaf guard moving down and multitype moving up. Leaf guard seems way to situational to be effective, ive never seen it used and sun is physically in OU among pokemon with this type. You could stop your Liligant from being toxiced sure, or you can run chlorophyll and outspeed everything. Multitype may be useless on defensive pokemon and forces you to run a plate, but then again you can change your fucking type. I’m borderline on both of these.

Im against moving accuracy increasing abilities since if we did we would have to move them all, including victory star. It isn't even that great on most pokemon unless they have focus blast / blizzard / thunder / or hydro pump and can actually use them effectively.

I agree with flare boost and marvel scale but am borderline on filter. But I disagree with solar power and heatproof. In my battling experience solar power pokemon just seem to die before they can do anything effective (although that might just be because Charizard is charizard), and heatproof getting rid of a weakness is rather mediocre and can't be compared with the immunities of the A tier.

 

[Jimera0]

I agree with Compound Eyes and No Guard; just about anything can take good advantage of those two abilities but they're obviously not S-tier material. Perfect A-tier stuff.

Heatproof, Solid Rock and Filter I think belong in B-tier, simply due to the magnitude of the effect they have is too small. A single extra resistance isn't going to change the game terribly often, and reducing super-effective damage slightly won't be saving you very often anyway. Yes they benefit, but the scale simply isn't game changing frequently enough to make a difference. It takes more than simply being easy to slap onto something to be A-tier.

Solar Power is a problem because of how short the timer it puts on a Pokemon is, and the fact that it occurs if an attack connects or not. You'll become very vulnerable very fast losing 12.5% a turn, and taking a turn to set up becomes downright silly. Not to mention you need to be a damn powerful special attacker already to take advantage of it (or have a Fire type STAB already), because if you AREN'T powerful enough it's just going to kill you while you helplessly flail against the opposing player's wall/resist. It's just very specialized as to what can use it... I mean, even a fire type like Charizard falters with it. Clearly, most special attackers (which are frail to begin with) are going to really get screwed over by this thing.

Flare Boost... no. Just no. If it functioned like Guts and boosted for ANY status condition, that'd be great, A tier right away. But it only functions for BURNS, which makes it all to easy for you to get a different status condition and be screwed. And not everything wants to run Flame Orb and put themselves on an 8 turn timer.

Marvel Scale I'm a bit on the edge about. Don't forget that Milotic is probably one of the best possible users of the ability, with access to Rest-Talk, already great Special Defense to go alongside with the Defense Boost, and great walling stats and the support options to run a defensive set. Sure nothing is going to DISLIKE a defense boost from being statused, but very few Pokemon are going to be able to use it to game-changing effect.

Nothing else for now, got no time to look in depth at this stuff but the B-tier seems mostly good at a glance. I might be back with nominations later though.

 

[alexwolf]

No Guard to A Tier

Almost any poke would become better with a 100% accurate Stone Edge, Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, Dynamicpunch, Zap Cannon, Sleep Powder, Hypnosis and Inferno. Imagine how powerful No Guard Starmie would be with a moveset of Blizzard, Hydro Pump and Thunder, or how great Mew would become with options such as Dynamicpunch and Focus Blast at its disposal. Even No Guard Metagross would be awesome with Dynamicpunch and Meteor Mash getting the accuracy boost from the ability. Don't even get me started on No Guard Tornadus or Kyurem...

Harvest to A Tier

Harvest is simply an amazing ability! It has so many uses it is crazy!!! First of all every poke could get instant recovery and status immunity with it...! You don't believe me? Ask Exeggutor he knows better! Simply slap a Lum Berry and Rest on your poke and here you have it! Or maybe you would like your boosting sweeper to get multiple Speed boosts when behind a Sub with Salac Berry, without doing anything... Or you could get rid of one of your pokes weaknesses altogether with the appropriate weakness-reducing berry... Anything you want Harvest can do it for you! I would go as far as to call it one of the best A Tier abilities, so don't pls don't underestimate this ability so badly...

Finally Marvel Scale to A Tier

Like Guts is an amazing ability for an offensive poke, Marvel Scale does the same for defensive pokes, and even for offensive, as it shields them from priority. Many defensive pokes or offensive tanks would love this ability, such as Metagross, Vaporeon, RestTalk Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Jellicent and Latias. Almost any poke likes having his defense boosted, so definitely A-Tier.

Compound eyes, Heatproof, Filter, Solid Rock and Victory Star are good B Tier abilities, but i think that are not so good for A Tier and are outclassed.

 

[Jimera0]

Sorry friend, but I have a few problems with these arguments. Comments in bold.

No Guard to A Tier

Almost any poke would become better with a 100% accurate Stone Edge, Fire Blast, Blizzard, Thunder, Hydro Pump, Focus Blast, Dynamicpunch, Zap Cannon, Sleep Powder, Hypnosis and Inferno. Imagine how powerful No Guard Starmie would be with a moveset of Blizzard, Hydro Pump and Thunder, or how great Mew would become with options such as Dynamicpunch and Focus Blast at its disposal. Even No Guard Metagross would be awesome with Dynamicpunch and Meteor Mash getting the accuracy boost from the ability. Don't even get me started on No Guard Tornadus or Kyurem...

I agree for A tier for this one, but it does need to be noted No Guard is a double edge sword; your opponent gets 100% accuracy as well, making attacks like Hypnosis and Will-o-Wisp much more dangerous.

Harvest to A Tier

Harvest is simply an amazing ability! It has so many uses it is crazy!!! First of all every poke could get instant recovery and status immunity with it...! You don't believe me? Ask Exeggutor he knows better! Simply slap a Lum Berry and Rest on your poke and here you have it! Or maybe you would like your boosting sweeper to get multiple Speed boosts when behind a Sub with Salac Berry, without doing anything... Or you could get rid of one of your pokes weaknesses altogether with the appropriate weakness-reducing berry... Anything you want Harvest can do it for you! I would go as far as to call it one of the best A Tier abilities, so don't pls don't underestimate this ability so badly...

Well for the time being the inexistance of pinch berries means we can't really consider them in the tiering. I'm sure they'll be released sometime during B2W2's era, but until then we can't consider them. However there's something to note about the other strategies; Harvest only restores a berry 50% of the time, meaning you're going to end up relying on hax a fair bit. For the Lum berry, that means whether you get to heal or not (or weather you wake up in time) depends on how lucky you are, and with the resist berries repeated hits will probably still take you down (not to mention it basically becomes a lesser version of heatproof that only works 50% of the time). Then there's the issue you have to give up on other, potentially more powerful items to use it.

Still, I see your argument and it does have potential. For Pokemon that commonly run berries it has a lot of potential, and a lot of defensive Pokemon could make great use of the ability's ability to partly eliminate weaknesses and allow the liberal use of Rest. The question is if this is enough benefit for A tier, as it doesn't have quite the magnitude of other A-tier abilities (permanent type immunity, effective 1.5x defense, immunity to or benefit from status, etc.) and relies on luck far more than one would like.

Finally Marvel Scale to A Tier

Like Guts is an amazing ability for an offensive poke, Marvel Scale does the same for defensive pokes, and even for offensive, as it shields them from priority. Many defensive pokes or offensive tanks would love this ability, such as Metagross, Vaporeon, RestTalk Gyarados, Ferrothorn, Jellicent and Latias. Almost any poke likes having his defense boosted, so definitely A-Tier.

Yes they'd appreciate the defense boost sure, but the problem is the cost that comes with it. Unlike Guts, where being on a time isn't necessarily that big a deal since you'll do a lot of damage in that time anyway, defensive Pokemon really can't afford the residual damage UNLESS they have Rest-Talk, which has move compatibility issues and is plain unavailable to most Gen V Pokemon. Yes, being statused with a defense boost is better than being statused without one, but it's not really something you can make game changing use of without a specific set. As I've already said, simply universal benefit isn't enough for the A-tier; there has to be a significant IMPACT that benefit has on a regular basis, or most abilities would be A-tier since most abilities don't have downsides

Compound eyes, Heatproof, Filter, Solid Rock and Victory Star are good B Tier abilities, but i think that are not so good for A Tier and are outclassed.

Just another quick reminder... being outclassed in the tier you're in doesn't matter. It DOES matter if you're outclassed by something in the teir BELOW you, because then you're clearly misplaced, but there's no reason one ability can't exist in the same tier as another with a similar effect of a lower magnitude, as long as that magnitude is still high enough to qualify for the tier. Compoundeyes is a great example of this because it appears totally outclassed by No Guard at first glance, but it allows the same thing; the use of more powerful but less accurate moves with much less risk. It does this WITHOUT No Guard's downside as well. Even though the bonus is smaller, the benefits are still good enough to meet A-tier criteria: just about anything would absolutely love 90%-100% accurate 120BP moves and be much more powerful for it. It has the magnitude, so there's no reason it can't be A-tier itself, even if No Guard does outclass it in some respect. I do agree the others are B-tier, but not because they're outclassed; they don't have the magnitude enough to make it to A-tier on their own merit. It's an important distinction.

Oh, one thing I forgot to address in my last post, I don't think Static and Flame Body deserve to go down to C-tier simply because when they DO activate they can be utterly game changing. I'm sure many of us have been screwed when Volcarona's flame body burned our attacker that just just took out it's sub, and any fast sweeper that gets paralyzed is going to really, really hate static. It's like Scald in that respect; sure it's not guaranteed to status, but the chance alone is worth it. They might not be the highest B-tier abilities, but they still deserve to be in there. I'd certainly have those two than most of the C-tier abilities, and the one or two I wouldn't I think belong in the B-tier anyway (I'll be addressing those next voting period).

Oh, and I've found something I want to nominate myself.

Bad Dreams to C-tier: Why? Sleep-clause for one; it'll only activate against one opponent at a time during a match. Two is the fact that the opponent has to be asleep to use it, so unless your opponent is fond of leaving in sleeping Pokemon or the Pokemon with the ability can induce sleep itself, you're not likely to wrack up much damage with it at all. If you do have a sleep move then it's a little bit better, but still, those don't have great distribution and most of them are terribly unreliable, making it even MORE unlikely you'll get anything out of it. FINALLY, the magnitude is really subpar. It only does 12.5% per a turn the opponent is in on the Pokemon. No one is going to leave in a sleeping Pokemon in long enough to rack up significant damage, and even if they did they might wake up and take very little anyway. All and all, it's largely useless and I'd rather have many other C-tier abilities over this one (Defiant, Rock Head, Unburden, Limber and Justified just to name a few). Just because the only Pokemon that gets it happens to be one of the few Pokemon that can actually make decent use of it doesn't make it an ability anything else would really want.

 

[VaporeonIce]

I second a lot of Jimera0's points.

Flare Boost isn't good enough for A tier, IMO. I would much rather run a Life Orb and lose 10% of my health every time I actually hit the opponent than be forced to run a Flame Orb so I could get a 1.5 boost and lose 12.5% of my health every turn. That's not to say it's a bad option; it's cool for special attackers to be able to switch in to Will-O-Wisp and have both Life Orb/Choice Specs AND Flare Boost. But it's definitely not A tier. I don't see it as analogous to Guts at all, because Guts negates a big issue that physical sweepers face (burn), and it activates against any other status condition (which can be easy to activate: see Toxic Spikes). Flare Boost just doesn't cut it.

Solar Power is actually similar to Flare Boost, in that I'd often rather run a Life Orb (as it's not dependent on Sun). If you run both Solar Power AND Life Orb, you will die extremely fast, so you need the speed and the power to be able to do some serious damage in that time. It's good on things that it works well with (and extremely threatening on Pokemon with good Special Attack, Speed, and a strong Fire-type move), but it's not good on all that much.

When considering No Guard and CompoundEyes, taking a glance at the list of OU Pokemon, you would be surprised at how many Pokemon would really only appreciate the boost to Stone Edge. I'm kind of on the fence about this one; Thunder is probably the most common special move that really appreciates it (Fire Blast is more common, but 85% is pretty decent as is), but perfect accuracy Thunders IS really cool. Also, anything with a sleep move (including the awful Sing) gets Spore, which is outrageous. So yeah, I think these are A tier, but probably low A tier because some Pokemon only get minimal benefit. Interesting side note: did you know Celebi doesn't have a single move with under 90% accuracy?

Marvel Scale doesn't seem that good to me, because it's so dependent on ResTalk. If you don't have ResTalk, what are the most common status moves you'll be hit with? Will-O-Wisp and Toxic (Spikes). These are both counterproductive to the Defense boost; burn isn't too crippling if you have a recovery move, but not everything does, and you still need to use that recovery move way more often. It's a very good B tier ability, but I don't think it makes the cut for A tier.

I'm on the fence regarding Filter and Solid Rock. I think they're way better than we're giving them credit for. Reading through analyses, a lot of the things that say "can OHKO (Pokemon X) with (Move Y)" would no longer hold. Any bulky Pokemon without a completely crippling weakness (read: not Rhyperior with its horrendous Special Defense) LOVES this ability. Even Dragonite, who loves its Multiscale (which isn't an A tier ability, IMO, but I guess I missed that one), would hugely appreciate taking less damage from Stone Edge and Ice Beam regardless of its health. Jirachi would go gaga for this ability, and Milotic might as well. On the other hand, the metagame is generally built around strong moves with good neutral coverage (Fighting, Dragon, and such) rather than super-effective coverage, and the reduction in damage isn't that huge. Plus, you need to be pretty strong in both defenses to really care (Gliscor doesn't care about it because its Special Defense isn't good enough). In the end, I think these are B tier, simply because too many of the threats to any given Pokemon are neutral rather than super-effective.

And I'll second Jimera0's points about Bad Dreams, Harvest, Static, and Flame Body. Don't underestimate how obnoxious burn, and especially paralysis, are when they hit. Burn is free residual damage, but if you're a physical attacker (which most Pokemon using contact moves are), it makes you useless on top of doing free residual damage. Paralysis basically makes every move have 75% accuracy on top of making you slow as hell. Static and Flame Body aren't A tier by any means, but they're solid B tier abilities.

 

[alexwolf]

@Jimera

No Guard is not rely a double-edged sword because you control when to hit or get hit by a non fully accurate move. So if you don't want your opponent's Stone Edge or Hypnosis to hit you, then you can just switch out. Also even if sometimes you will lose some matches due to some inaccurate moves hitting you, you will win much more matches due to your inaccurate moves hitting then opponent, so if you take the sum of wins and losses, the wins will be more, and as such No Guard is clearly a beneficial ability for all intents and purposes.

Even if we discount the pinch berries (which i don't think we should) Harvest is still an A Tier ability. About the hax part that you would rely to use the strategies i mentioned. If you had used Rest Lum Berry Exxegutor before, you would know that this is almost never an issue, because you have multiple turns to get back your lost Berry. You are not supposed to spam Rest every turn, hoping that the 50% doesn't screw you over. You use Rest when you are on low life, meaning after a few turns, and in this period of time getting back you Berry is almost guaranteed (after 2 turns you have a 75% chance of getting back your Berry at least once, and after 3 turns you have a 87,5% chance of getting back your berry at least once). With resist berries, it is pretty much the same. When you put an Occa Berry to your harvest Metagross, you shouldn't just bring Metagross in against Heatran. What you should do is lure a move that Metagross can come into (Toxic, Dragon Pulse, HP Ice), and then tank the fire attack and ohko back with EQ. And you can do this again, since Metagross is very bulky, and could posibly survive an other weaker Fire attack with Occa Berry. Or imagine Occa Berry Harvest Ferrothorn, which would be almost unkillable and a full stop to most dragons. Or imagine Occa Berry Skarmory or specially defensive Wacan Berry Skarmory in the rain. It would be unkillable, and wouldn't fear getting trapped from Magnezone anymore. Anyway i am done with the examples, since i think you get how useful getting rid of one of your weaknesses permanently would be. And the difference with Heatproof, which you mentioned, is that Harvest halves the damage for any type you want, not only for fire moves, while also Harvest has also other uses except reducing damage as already mentioned.

About Marvel Scale. Even without any form of recovery, any defensive poke would be great with this ability. Also you don't need RestTalk to abuse Marvel Scale to the full potential, you just need reliable recovery and to get hit with a status move, which is in almost every team btw. Just think of the defensive pokes we have in OU, and imagine which of them would benefit from Marvel Scale. Ferrothorn, Gliscor, Skarmory, Celebi, Gyarados, Jellicent, Donphan, Vaporeon, Blissey, Latias, Metagross, and Dexoys-d would all greatly benefit from the ability. So we can see that Marvel Scale does have a universal benefit (most defensive pokes and even some offensive ones) and, imo, is deserving of the A Tier status.

Finally you are right about Compound Eyes, it is good enough to go in the A Tier too.

 

[Jimera0]

@Alexwolf

No Guard: yes yes I wasn't trying to say it's bad because of that. One of those edges on the double edged sword is a lot duller than the other, for sure. I just wanted to note that it is not without its negatives. There's a reason Machamp runs Lum Berry as its primary item.

Harvest: There's another thing that makes this ability a little less appealing; it requires sun to be up. Harvest isn't as devastating as Chlorophyl or Flower Gift in terms of the power it gives you, so it doesn't negate the difficulty in keeping sun up nearly as well as the other sun abilities do. Don't forget that the Skarmory you mentioned would be a pretty damn bad fit for a Sun team in the first place. But I see what you're saying about Rest-Lum; I was more thinking along the lines of Hydration/rest Vaporeon where you do Rest every turn sometimes. Less defensive Pokemon would appreciate it a lot more I can tell. You do have to look out for people eliminating your Lum the same turn you go to sleep however, lest you incapacitate yourself for 2 turns. Of course such a scenario could be avoided just by using Chesto instead I suppose.

Marvel Scale: I think you're under-appreciating how harmful status is to a wall. Even Burn and Standard poison turn 3HKOs into 2HKOs, and Marvel Scale only improves one side of your defense, so you may beat a few new physical threats, but only at the cost of losing to more special threats. Paralysis screws with your recovery, and Toxic... well we all know what that does to walls without Rest. I disagree that all the Pokemon you mentioned would benefit from it, as they are still very vulnerable to special attacks or lose something vital unless they're hit with just the right status condition (Latias can only really afford Burn/Standard poison for instance, while Ferrothorn loses the ability to strike back with its STAB attacks if it's burned). A few could benefit from it a lot, sure, though most would rather have thier current (A-tiered) abilities instead.

As for the "universal benefit" argument, I need to remind everyone that the magnitude of the benefit matters. I strongly suggest we add the word "significantly" in front of the phrase "better for it" in the A-tier definition so people can get this straight. The defense benefit while being statused does NOT have a significant benefit to the vast majority of Pokemon. Offensive Pokemon generally won't give a shit, especially if it means they're burned or Paralyzed in return. Defensive Pokemon rarely have the assets to use it to game-changing effect. It fits the definition of B-tier simply because a boost to a single defensive stat is not enough to compete with other A-tier abilities, not when the cost is being crippled by status. Yes nothing is going to DISLIKE the boost, but that's just not enough on its own to boost something to A-rank.

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Id like to point out that while paralysis or burns from static and flame body can be game changing, hax from effect spore and poison point can be equally as game changing. Sure regular poison sucks in comparison to deadly poison, but its not that bad, your still losing 12% every turn. And effect spore has a good chance of paralysis and even a fucking 10% chance of sleep which is much better than paralysis and burns. I’m just finding it to comparable to C tier abilities, even if they are better, to allow it in B tier unless we think effect spore and poison point should me moved up.

I’m continuing my support on flare boost too. Yes flare boost only works with burns, but something with guts doesn't like getting paralyzed, and something with quick feet doesn't exactly like being burned or paralyzed. A 1.5 times special attack boost is nothing to scoff at too, when all you have to do is switch in your special attacker on a weak scald, or give it a burn orb. Sure it’s not as great as other A tier abilities, but it’s still very comparable and pretty good.

Im more on the fence about no guard than I was yesterday, but I still am not going for it because there hasn’t been any discussion about victory star. Clearly no guard > compound eyes > victory star. For almost all pokemon the difference between compound eyes and no guard is negligible, as few things have zap cannon and dynamic punch (and can actually use them effectively or want them). If you aren’t aware the difference between compound eyes and victory star is a 30% boost compared to a 10% boost. Outside of blizzard, thunder, and sleep powder (and maybe sing) few things realistically see the difference between the two. For example with victory star hydro pump gets up to 88%, and fire blast up to 93.5%, which is barely noticeable. So I think the difference between the two isn't enough to show a tier difference honestly, and no guard is dragged down too because it’s logistically the same as compound eyes.

My point about defiant compared to clear body and white smokes seems to be ignored. I am finding these abilities really comparable and would like some input if I should nominate clear body and white smoke.