Ability Tiering Thread and General Ability Discussion (Final Check)

[doughboy]

Alright I'm nominating moving Magic Guard from A-tier to S-tier. I'll going to quote my original arguer if you haven't seen it but I'll add some more at the end.

Alright I think the biggest mistake on the tier (IMO) is that Magic Guard isn't S tier. Let me explain...

1. Immunity to all residual damage
   - This is essentially the barebones effect of Magic Guard, but that one little sentence encompasses so much that even I underestimate how significant that is. The big factor about this residual damage business is immunity to all hazards. The ability switch in and out freely makes you a much more "mobile" player and a bane to stall teams. Eliminating the ability for opposing Pokemon to get crucial KO's is huge and having the ability to use a type weak to rock without any repercussions is very nice (case in point). Your entire team benefits from Magic Guard by gaining a status absorber and these abusers seek out status. You can play tricks with Toxic Orb and Flame Orb, but when you receive a Poison or Burn you have a sweeper that can't be paralyzed or slept .(most relevant here).
2. Huge increase in power
   - The free Life Orb is known by most, but it is pretty important. Retaining your bulk and longevity with Life Orb and being immune to its negative effect that was designed to counteract its huge upsides is pretty awesome. While the most popular Magic Guard users are Reuniclus and Alakazam in OU, I don't think they show Magic Guard's offensive potential the most. That title belongs to Clefable. Clefable shows us that stuff as weak as her can be utilized a wallbreaker and another interesting side effect of Magic Guard: the lack of recoil on moves. In a way, Magic Guard acts as a mini-Sheer Force. If any Pokemon was given Magic Guard, they could easily upgrade their movepool to much more fearsome options. The most common upgrades being return to double edge, fire punch to flare blitz, and brave bird everything.
3. Gureenteed Revenge Kill
   - This is one of the niche uses of Magic Guard and one of the reasons why Zam was put into the spotlight. A Magic Guard user can effectively put a stop to a pokemon's sweep with a guareenteed revenge kill. Having the ability to just minimize the damage of a sweep with just the presence of a revenge killer I think is really big. There is also counter-coat shenanigans (I am waiting for you counter-sash zam :*[ )
4. How is this put into practice? / inviable to viable
   - Alright the most popular Magic Guard abusers have been made by their ability, let's take a look. Reuniclus, the most popular of all Magic Guard abusers, has a truly abysmal stat spread. It would have been just another generic psychic type in UU had it not been for Magic Guard. At the peak of its popularity, Reuniclus had a small following for being banworthy, due to maiming offensive teams with its TR set (can you say hydreigon power with LO outspeeding everything?) or putting a full stop to defensive teams with its CM set. We had Zam pull a Gastrodon and go from the depths of RU to OU with just the introduction of Magic Guard in one tiering cycle. Lastly, we have Sigiglyph. With a high profile rmt introducing him, he saw an increase with competing with the bad boys in OU from I believe NU (I think RU wasn't made at the time). Sigiglyph could never pull off his unique, standard set without Magic Guard.

TL;DR Magic Guard acting as a free LO boost (mini-sheer force), status immunity, same effect as rock head, and complete immunity to hazards (which some pokes would kill for) make it too good just to be placed within the A tier abilities. You get a huge increase in both attacking power and longevity with just one ability.

The barebones of what I am trying to get at is that Magic Guard benefits both defensive walls and the most offensive Pokes, no need to have a special movepool or stats for it. Alright so I want to answer the question on how magic guard can make an unusable Pokemon usable. Let's say Moltres got Magic Guard. Pretty much "unusable" in OU due to a 4x SR weakness, we now have a Poke with some interesting properties. First, it can actually use its decent bulk with roost since it doesn't have to fear hazards anymore. Not only can it switch in more, but afford to run Life Orb, making it a very scary powerful attack. Heck, it can use some boosted Flame Charge+3 special attacks shenangians without Flame Charge feeling like a wasted slot.

Overall, immunity to hazards makes it great, but all the other stuff combined with it pushes it into S-tier awesomeness. There is a reason why it is the ability of choice for some Pokemon in Balanced Hackmons, where it has to compete with the other s-tier abilities. Really if Magic Guard was distributed to a Poke, paticularly one weak to rock, it can ignore the curse of SR that has affected tons of Pokemon for only their type. There is a reason why Magic Guard took Zam from RU to OU alone.

 

[Ithilanor]

There is a reason why Magic Guard took Zam from RU to OU alone.

Just a note...while it was probably the biggest factor, it wasn't the only one. Zam also benefited hugely from Psyshock and the rise of Fighting types. Also, looking at its DPP analysis onsite, it was UU last gen.

 

[Jimera0]

Just a note...while it was probably the biggest factor, it wasn't the only one. Zam also benefited hugely from Psyshock and the rise of Fighting types. Also, looking at its DPP analysis onsite, it was UU last gen.

No he has a point there. Zam didn't start out with Magic Guard this generation; it was only released several months ago in the dream world, and prior to the release of that ability it was residing in RU. Magic Guard did take it up to OU over the space of a couple months once the ability was released for Alakazam.

Reading that argument he does have a point. Given to the right Pokemon, Magic Guard CAN totally make a Pokemon that was unviable before viable. Moltress was UU last generation just like Alakazam was, and it's not beyond reason that it could raise it up to OU were it to get magic guard. There are plenty of other NU and RU Pokemon that have similar weaknesses that would be greatly reduced by Magic Guard.

Still, I'm not sure this is the same as and S tier ability. Sure it might raise some decent Pokemon held back by key weaknesses out, but it needs to be given to very specific Pokemon in order to bring them out of the depths. You can't give magic guard to something like Linoone and expect it to rise to OU, but you could give it Magic Bounce, Drizzle, or something else and expect it to jump up. It is, still, in my opinion, a very borderline case. It's on the cusp between A-tier and S-tier, and exactly where it falls is hard to determine.

 

[Ithilanor]

No he has a point there. Zam didn't start out with Magic Guard this generation; it was only released several months ago in the dream world, and prior to the release of that ability it was residing in RU. Magic Guard did take it up to OU over the space of a couple months once the ability was released for Alakazam.

Oh, ok. Didn't know that.

 

[Twins]

Magic Guard is an amazing ability, of course, but belongs in A Rank, perhaps a bit more, because it doesn't make the pokemon viable by itself. It did make Reuniclus and Alakazam OU, yes, but that's because they had great stat spreads by themselves, Alakazam for a fast and powerful sweeper/revenge killer, and Reuniclus for a Trick Room abuser. Magic Guard gave them that small upward push to OU, but only because they were pretty good without it. It's just not quite good enough for S Rank, but a bit better than your average A Rank. Think about it this way: if Sableye got Magic Guard instead of Prankster, it still would be NU.

If only there was a BL Tier between A and S Rank.

 

[Acritter]

Agreeing with Magic Guard to S. We have clear proof of it taking Pokemon and making them much better, we know that it's pure upside, and we can easily theorize about other Pokemon that would be vastly improved with it. Pretty much anything with dual SR weakness would jump up a couple of tiers, if not be OU-viable, just because of Magic Guard. Most SR-weak OUs would instantly go to Ubers.

One other thing that should be mentioned is that Magic Guard conceals your item. You can't tell if a Magic Guard user is running Choice, LO, or Sash except by running damage calcs. This can allow players to easily fake items and come back to do alarming amounts of damage.

 

[VaporeonIce]

Most SR-weak OUs would instantly go to Ubers.

Right...because they're good enough to be in OU already. Meaning they have stat spreads and movepools that work well in the metagame.

Here are some Pokemon that are 4x weak to Stealth Rock:

Articuno: This thing is a legendary, and I don't think it would go anywhere, even with Magic Guard. Why? Because its movepool is awful. All it can do is stall. Switch to a Steel-type without horrible Special Defense and it loses automatically. It also has a harder time stalling without Pressure.

Beautifly/Butterfree: Yeah, no chance. They're Quiver Dancers that are too frail to set up. Sure, Magic Guard buys them one turn to Quiver Dance with Focus Sash, but it's not like they have the power to sweep at +1.

Charizard: It would probably get out of NU, but I honestly don't see it doing a lot either. With Magic Guard, it could be a cool choice for Sun teams, but it's kind of one-dimensional. You know it's going to spam Fire attacks (because its movepool doesn't have much else on the special side), so I don't see it being all that much better than any other current sun sweeper. Plus, its speed really lets it down.

Combee: Just kidding.

Delibird: Yeah...no chance.

Ledian: See Delibird.

Masquerain/Mothim: See Butterfree.

Moltres: Would definitely be at least UU for its combination of power, bulk, and decent speed (and a better movepool than Articuno). That said, I'm not sure it's OU material. It's only base 90 speed, which will result in it getting killed a lot, and it wishes it had moves that really mess up Terrakion or Tyranitar. That said, it's less one-dimensional than Articuno; with Magic Guard, it could choose between a "sweeping" set and more of a stall-oriented set, so it might be able to crack into low OU due to its versatility.

Ninjask: Yeah, this thing is awful. I guess a Baton Passer that's immune to Stealth Rock is cool? But it's frail as hell and without Speed Boost, it can't really "set up" for free by using Sub/Protect. It's staying NU.

Vespiquen: Still awful.

Volcarona: In my mind, it's a clear Uber with Magic Guard. Its crazy stats and amazing movepool make it very good, despite currently being weak to all entry hazards. In fact, that weakness to entry hazards is one of the only things holding it back from being Uber right now (IMO).

Unless I missed something, those are all of the fully evolved Pokemon that are 4x weak to SR (besides Ho-Oh, who is clearly a god with Magic Guard). Yes, it does have a collection of some of the worst Pokemon in the game, due to the prevalence of Bug/Flying, but even the legendaries (Moltres/Articuno) with their good BSTs don't really shine with Magic Guard, because they lack the movepool to really capitalize on it. Clefable, on the other hand, has a movepool that extends to the heavens, but it doesn't have the stats to really do anything that impressive.

This is why I think Magic Guard is A tier. It benefits literally every Pokemon in the game, and it benefits some quite significantly, but a Pokemon can still only shine with it with the right combination of stats and movepool. Alakazam is insanely fast and powerful, and is primarily held back because it's frail as hell, so Magic Guard lets it abuse Focus Sash or pump up its power to Deoxys-A levels with Life Orb without having to worry about dying to Sandstorm/LO recoil/Toxic Spikes. Reuniclus is a slow wall with a ton of power; Magic Guard lets it push its power over the edge with Life Orb or capitalize on its great defensive stats, boosting with Calm Mind without having to Recover every turn. I think they pretty well exemplify what you need to be "transformed" by Magic Guard; you either need good speed and power and a movepool to abuse that power, or you need good enough bulk to tank hits and a movepool good enough to do serious damage back. You need stats that are good enough to hang with OU to be OU viable with Magic Guard. Even then, I don't think a Pokemon like Sceptile, with decent attacking stats and great speed, would actually make OU with Magic Guard; its coverage moves aren't quite strong enough and its STAB is resisted by way too much. So in my mind, Magic Guard is an A tier ability. It might be the best A tier ability, but it's still not quite S tier. For every example of an RU/NU Pokemon that can become OU with Magic Guard, I think I could find at least five examples of RU/NU Pokemon that are nowhere near OU with Magic Guard.

 

[doughboy]

For every example of an RU/NU Pokemon that can become OU with Magic Guard, I think I could find at least five examples of RU/NU Pokemon that are nowhere near OU with Magic Guard.

You could literally say that about every other ability in the S-tier. Many of the Pokemon you listed wouldn't utilize many of the s-tier abilities either.

you either need good speed and power and a movepool to abuse that power, or you need good enough bulk to tank hits and a movepool good enough to do serious damage back.

I think we really need to revise "you need specific stats/movepool". Saying you need to be fast and powerful or bulky enough to tank hits is literally describing every offensive Pokemon in the game. I don't think having a STAB move that is widely distributed through your types and two very widely distributed TM moves count as a "specific movepool". What is specific? An ability like Contrarty which requires a stat lowering move in order to utilize, which there are only 8 in the game.

I would also like to point out that the S-tier abilities aren't immune to how good a stat is. Almost all of the main abusers of those abilties has a at least one stat that allows them to use it effectively. Wobbufett has a high HP stat with low defenses to optimally deal out Counter and Mirror Coat damage. The next Shadow Tag abuser Chandelure has the biggest non-uber special attack in the game to make sure it can kill things while being unboosted (which is why the Choice Scarf set works, otherwise you would just be). I think what really points this out is Arena Trap with Dugtrio vs Tranpinch. Why is Dugtrio used even if they both have abysmal bulk and Trapinch has a higher attack stat. Speed is what it is, Dugtrio has that stat nailed down by being one of the fastest Pokemon in OU (and the game). The revenge killers with trapping abilities need high speed and power, which is why you see Choice Band Dugtrio and Choice Scarf Chandelure as inverses of eachother (they needed to boost their other stat with Choice items to kill things with their ability). The "fixing" of these stats with Choice items show that the s-tier abilities aren't removed from the stat spread and BST of a pokemon.

 

[Acritter]

I think we really need to advise "you need specific stats/movepool".

Agreed. Until further notice, I'm going to define it as "requiring a combination of stat spread and movepool that results in less than ten Pokemon that will exhibit a significant increase in power". I'll temporarily define "significant increase in power" as "two tiers of change, with Ubers being separated into two tiers: viable and nonviable". The reason for that last part is because sending a solidly OU Pokemon into Garchomp territory in Ubers is very different from sending it into Kyogre territory. An OU Pokemon gaining the ability to go toe-to-toe with 670+ Legendaries is very different from one getting pushed just barely over the limit of what's acceptable, similar to the difference between BL and OU. Pokemon with negative abilities should, for obvious reasons, be ignored. Honey Gather has a good chance of sending Slaking into OU.

Would anyone like to elaborate on my temporary definition?

 

[forestflamerunner]

The A tier discussion and nomination period is now over, and the voting period for A tier abilities will now start. Like before, for each ability you have the option of voting "Change Tier", "VO Not Change Tier", or "Abstain". Your vote must be in bold or I WILL NOT COUNT IT. The abilities we will be voting on are Sand Force, Mold Breaker,Moxie, Magnet Pull, Quick Feet, Sturdy, Speed Boost, and Magic Guard. Here is a sample ballot:

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Abstain
Quick Feet: Change Tier
Sturdy: Do Not Change Tier
Speed Boost: Abstain
Magic Guard: Abstain

The voting period will last 48 hours. Have fun. Also, in the event of a tie, the ability will remain in A tier. You need a majority to make the ability change tier.

 

[forestflamerunner]

My Votes

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Do Not Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Do Not Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

 

[Naix]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Abstain

 

[Jimera0]

Why aren't Magnet Pull and Quick Feet on the ballot? I don't agree they need changing myself, but they were nominated and the issue wasn't clearly settled on either of them. Was this just an oversight, or is there a reason we're not voting on them? Seems like it got fixed, good stuff!

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Abstain
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

Had nice big explanations written up but then I hit the quote button on a post by accident and it all vanished, so you'll have to fill in the blanks for yourselves.

 

[KurashiDragon]

My votes (Just to throw my hat into the ring)

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Change Tier

 

[Princess Bubblegum]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Do Not Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Change Tier
Quick Feet: Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do not Change Tier

 

[dragonuser]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

 

[pharaohcalvin]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Do Not Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

 

[lmitchell0012]

I like this idea, but I think it would be better if we starting giving pokemon a point system. Call it the 'overall potential' equation, if you want to call it anything. I know it sounds crazy, but just hear me out and I promise it will make sense. What if we assigned points to important things that every pokemon has (base stats, movepool, ability, and type). Depending on what tier the ability is in, each ability will be worth a certain number of points. Depending on how high the base stats of the pokemon are, those will also be assigned a point value. And, of course, the movepool and typing of the pokemon will also be factored into the equation.

Now, I know that pokemon is not a puzzle that can be solved through a mathematical equation, but let's say we assigned point values to abilities and base stats (for starters)...it would be interesting to see which pokemon came out on top.

So, what do you think of all this??

 

[Twins]

Sand Force: Change Tier
It's good, but is way to situational to be of use, requiring sandstorm, the movepool to use it, and enough power that the 30% boost means something. To B Tier it goes.
Mold Breaker: Do Not Change Tier
Probably a lower A Tier ability, but disabling nearly every other ability is just too good to pass up. Imagine Forretress with this. Screw Magic Bounce. Keldeo could plow through Gastrodon and Jellicent with it. Heatran getting KOed by Fire moves? Yep, Reshiram. Mamoswine could be the ultimate Dragonite counter. Possibilities, possibilities everywhere. It's not perfect, but it has just enough utility and diversity to stay in A Rank.
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Makes sweeping that much easier. It doesn't matter if it's useless on pokemon with low attack, so is Pure/Huge Power and they're S Rank.
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Pokemon is heavily based on switching, and denying your opponent this is game changing. It can't save a pokemon from being terrible (Probopass), so it's not S like Arena Trap or Destiny Bond, but it can make a pokemon with a decent movepool that much better (Magnezone).
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Not as good as other A Tier abilities, but still A because actually gaining a boost from normally crippling status is very useful.
Sturdy: Do Not Change Tier
Sort of situational, but it is easy enough to manage, and allows you to live an extra turn, possibly KOing back. Use it on a lead for a free Focus Sash.
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
This makes good pokemon godly. Case in point: Blaziken and Sharpedo. It being passive, and abusable with Protect (which every pokemon that can learn TMs can get except Regigigas) makes it even better.
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier
Yeah, it's amazing, but it, like other A Tier abilities, only makes good pokemon better. It doesn't save a pokemon from horrendous stats like Prankster and Magic Bounce do. It's not quite S Tier material, but at the same time, better than other A Tier abilities by a fairly high margin. If we had to compromise, we could make a BL tier between S and A, and it would be perfect there.

 

[min min]

About Quick Feet, not every pokemon needs to have an auto-speed-boost that badly, for example extremely slow ones below 50 or 60 base, along with extremely fast ones above 110 or 120 base. And among the pokemon between those limits, some are defensive pokemon that won't benefit as much from a speed boost as offensive pokemon, which further narrows the list of pokemon that can use it to its fullest extent.

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Do Not Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Change Tier
Sturdy: Do Not Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

 

[Jimera0]

About Quick Feet, not every pokemon needs to have an auto-speed-boost that badly, for example extremely slow ones below 50 or 60 base, along with extremely fast ones above 110 or 120 base. And among the pokemon between those limits, some are defensive pokemon that won't benefit as much from a speed boost as offensive pokemon, which further narrows the list of pokemon that can use it to its fullest extent.

You're forgetting that the fast ones above 110 would like the immunity to paralysis' speed lowering effect though, meaning they would benefit from it. Sure there are a few Pokemon that wouldn't benefit from it a whole lot, but you can say that of any A Tier ability. That's why we're suggesting A tier and not S tier. And I'd argue that a base 60 Pokemon would love the speed boost, as usually such slow Pokemon are bulky hard hitters that would really enjoy the ability to take out many of their usual checks. Really, it's only the slowest of the slow and defensive Pokemon that would not appreciate it. This gives it about the same benefit overall as Moxie has, so saying one can stay while the other can go based on how many Pokemon benefit greatly from it is illogical.

 

[alexwolf]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

 

[VaporeonIce]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

I don't think Moxie's as reliable as people are giving it credit for. It's good, but it's situational; usually sweepers either have problems getting that first kill (because the opponent switches to their counter), or they fear getting revenge killed. Moxie doesn't solve either of those problems, so in my mind, it's not quite strong enough to be A tier. In theory, every Pokemon that uses physical attacks can benefit from it. In practice, most of them probably won't.

 

[Soulous]

Sand Force: Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Change Tier
Moxie: Abstain
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Abstain
Sturdy: Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Do Not Change Tier

 

[doughboy]

Sand Force: Do Not Change Tier
Mold Breaker: Do Not Change Tier
Moxie: Do Not Change Tier
Magnet Pull: Do Not Change Tier
Quick Feet: Do Not Change Tier
Sturdy: Do Not Change Tier
Speed Boost: Do Not Change Tier
Magic Guard: Change Tier

I feel that almost all the abilities are solidly placed. As others have expressed, I would be perfectly content with Magic Guard going into some BL tier between S and A (as expressed by Twins), seeing as how the consensus that it outclasses almost all A-tier abilities.