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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
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    I personally think that Landorus-T killed DragMag teams. In fact, I want to say that it killed Physical Dragons in general, not to extreme extents but they are suffering from its massive presence in the metagame.

    This is the first time we have had a Pokemon with Intimidate, good bulk, no Stealth Rock weakness, and even forces Dragons to Outrage early since they can't do anything else; you can't even wear it down with Sand Storm; to make this sentence even longer, it comes with Stealth Rock and U-Turn so it's multipurpose! I think it is hands down the best utility Pokemon in the tier right now because it just does everything you could ever need it to do. Fighting-counter, Rock-Check, Ground-Check, Dragon-counter, Stealth Rocker, U-Turner, Defensive Pivot, and even Wall-Breaker and that's just one set!

    It's not super obvious right now but if Landorus-I does end up getting the suspect treatment and does get the boot, species clause isn't a factor anymore and we're going to see just how dominant Landorus-T really is because the usage stats right now do it no justice. #21 would be a great placement for any other Pokemon but this guy should realistically be right next to Heatran.

    And speaking of the Pokemon currently right next to Heatran in usage, Dragonite is definitely going to take a tumble for probably the first time in 5th Gen history if Landorus-T rises. Aside from Rain sets, Dragonite isn't too great at running Mixed and has no way to stopping Landorus-T other than Sub-Roosting all of HP Ice's PP. Garchomp on the other hand can actually break through Landorus-T with SD Yache but only with Yache. But even then, Landorus-T forces Chomp to Outrage which is an open invitation for a Steel-type like Ferrothorn to take care of business. And ScarfMence is just a joke to Landorus-T and I can't believe it's still being used even with Mamoswine and Scarf Terrakion/Keldeo being popular as well on top of all the Steel-types.
    Seriously, stop that crap. You're making Salamence look bad. He'd probably a better Mixed-Attacker than Hydreigon if it weren't for Blissey/Chansey. Same goes for Garchomp actually; a modified ChainChomp set with EQ, DMeteor, Fire Blast, and DragTail is imo his best and most unexpected set and I'd probably run it through C&C if I didn't have 2 analyses already active./tangent

    I had another point to make but I lost it during the Salamence/Garchomp tangent. Oh well. Main point was that DragMag is easily beaten even without Steel-types and it's kinda hilarious. Like seriously, Landorus-T+Tyranitar beats every Dragon but Hydreigon, MixMence, and ChainChomp. It's a relatively easy play-style to fight nowadays. Too many good walls, pursuers, and scarfmons for it to be all that viable currently.
  2. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    I have to completely disagree with this assertion; as a matter of fact DragMag is probably better than ever now that Deo-D is gone with its easy SR and we have Kube+Garchomp. Lando-T has definitely is a pain to Drag-Mag since the power of Dragon Dancer's, aka Salamence and Dragonite, are essentially neutralized. But Lando-T has a severe flaw with Drag-Mag: most Dragon's are immune to its main STAB in EQ. If it elects not to run HP Ice (which the majority of the time it does not) then it has to rely on the inaccurate and low-pp Stone Edge to do any damage. Lando-T also lacks reliable recovery so it falls prey to the classic tatic of Drag-Mag, getting worn down.

    Kyurem-B has been such a great boon to Drag-Mag; it is hilariously good. It is extremely bulky with 252 HP EV's checks just about everything, including Starmie which is surprisingly annoying for Drag-Mag. Slap 252+ Atk EV's on with a CB and not even the Ferrothorn will be able cope with you throughout the match. It is an excellent lure for both Skarmory and Lando-T, hitting both extremely hard with Fusion Bolt and Ice Beam respectively. Lando-T and Gliscor are both OHKO'ed even with 0- SpA Ice Beam! Absurd wallbreaker, check for dangerous Pokemon, and lure packaged into one awesome Dragon.

    Garchomp also is my second favorite Dragon on Drag-Mag. Its lead Focus Sash Lead set is an A++ tier hazard setter and keeps the Dragon pressure on from the start of the match. Sash-chomp with Fire Blast lures out Forretress early game to get him out of the way for your other Dragons. Out of all the Dragons, Choice Scarf Garchomp is the best cleaner in my opinion (yes even better than Mence). Unlike Scarf Latios which only can use the relatively weak base 90 D-pulse, Garchomp gets both a 120 bp Outrage and 100 base STAB'ed EQ. It's stronger than Latios basically. It's STAB EQ and slightly higher base speed really count IMO over Salamence, since you are not forced to tie with Choice Scarf Jirachi (which is everywhere) or lose to Choice Scarf Thunderus-T.


    Here is my go-to DragMag team that I used to get req's. Gyarados seems like a weird decision, but it lures is a great check to both Mamoswine and Landorus-I. In addition, it acts as a deterence to opposing Landorus-T and Tyranitar. (ugh ps! down)

    edit: here it is
    Show Hide
    Magnezone @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 134 Spd / 122 HP
    Modest Nature
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon

    Dragonite @ Choice Band
    Trait: Multiscale
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Earthquake
    - Fire Punch
    - ExtremeSpeed

    Latios (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Timid Nature
    - Psyshock
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf

    Gyarados @ Choice Band
    Trait: Intimidate
    EVs: 168 Spd / 252 Atk / 88 HP
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Double-Edge
    - Ice Fang

    Kyurem-Black @ Choice Band
    Trait: Teravolt
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 HP / 4 SDef
    Adamant Nature
    - Outrage
    - Dragon Claw
    - Sleep Talk
    - Fusion Bolt

    Garchomp @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spd / 4 HP
    Jolly Nature
    - Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Dual Chop

  3. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    DragMag will look bad,if you focus only on steels and ignore other potential walls.If Landorus-T/Gliscor is a problem,stacking up multiple strong physical attackers will let you lure out and break through physical walls via overloading,letting you're other physical cleaners sweep easily.Chloro sweepers and Mamoswine are honestly the only pokes DragMag really has trouble with.
  4. Morgenstern

    Morgenstern

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    I agree that Kyurem-B is pretty good in DragMag. I had alot of sucess running the Sub 3 Attacks, that thing does wonders. If you can get rid of a Pokemon that is stopping you or weaken it enough, you basicly get a Kyurem-B sweep thanks to not being lock in CB and having Substitute instead. So imo Sub>CB for wallbreaking and cleaning up stuff, but man the power of CB Kyurem-B is just amazing, cant deny it.

    Lead Garchomp is pretty strong, but Swords Dance is much better than Fire Blast on Garchomp, yeah you might be able to break through some Steel types like Forretress and Scizor, but you are limiting Garchomp in a way to inflict massive damage after a Swords Dance after setting Stealth Rocks. You are wasting an important moveslot for something that Magnezone can do, and even other Dragons that carry Dragon/Ground/Fire for coverage can.

    And for Scarf Garchomp, yes it is stronger than Scarf Mence and Scarf Latios in terms of power and speed in Mence case, but even though Latios is weaker, its better as a cleaner since it can deal with a +2 259 Speed Pokemon that would otherwise clean the rest of your team since Garchomp isnt fast enough to revenge kill it. Also Scarf Latias with Healing Wish needs a mention, I have used it many times and its very effective in many situations, not only she is bulky, she has a 110 base Speed and that Healing Wish that saves your ass in many situations. I think that makes up for the lower Sp Atk, but if you think about it, if Latios gets paralized for example it practicly becomes useless the rest of the game, but in Latias case you still have that Healing Wish and can use it to heal another Pokemon(Remember it heals not only HP but also Status, think of it as using a Full Restore in a Pokemon in your difficult battle against Lance's Dragonite and u sacrifice a useless Pokemon in order to restore the other Pokemon that is going to be more effective.)

    And has anyone tried Focus Sash Lead Aerodactyl? I have used it and even though its pretty weak, its a super fast Stealth Rock setter and has access to Fire Blast that many people dont expect it to have. And what other Leads for DragMag have you used that you had success with or think that deserve a mention?
    A good DragMag doesnt only focus on Steel types. And Chlorophyll sweepers arent that much of a problemto be honest, DragMag has enough ways to deal with them, the only real problem would be a +2 Timid Venusaur carrying Sludge Bomb and have Stealth Rocks in the fieldand lacking any priority attacks.
  5. EspeonX

    EspeonX

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    But 112 HP Latias lives a +2 Sludge Bomb in the sun at full health (84-99%). If you run DragMag with Latias, you should be able to keep SR off the field in most matches, so as long as you don't let Latias take any damage, you won't have a massive problem with Venusaur. Scarf Latias also outspeeds +2 Modest/Naughty Venusaur, for reference.

    If you want a more reliable check to it, running your own Thick Fat CB Mamoswine allows you to easily revenge kill Venusaur. Thick Fat also means Mamoswine resists Ice moves iirc. Weavile works too.
  6. nmitchell890

    nmitchell890

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    As someone that has run DragMag since before the Genesect era, I can say that Choice Band Kyurem-B is hilariously powerful, and bulky at the same time. You have no idea how many times my opponents have sac'd a weakened pokemon to bring in a revenge killer, only to see it get KOed as Kyurem-B survives their attack and retaliates. It is extremely easy to bring in as well if Stealth Rock is kept off the field, and I have lead Azelf for that. Just for reference, the two bulkiest pokemon on the physical side allowed in OU; Tangrowth and Hippowdon, take 60% minimum from Outrage.

    I agree with ThePillsburyDoughBoy when he says that Garchomp is better than both Salamence and Latios when holding a Choice Scarf. The extra speed it has over Salamence is crucial for avoiding being revenge killed by Jirachi and Thundurus-T (though I haven't seen too many of either) and is still powerful enough to clean up even without Moxie, which is its advantage over Latios. Another advantage is its bulk, it can take on Terrakion even if it holds a Choice Scarf as it will always survive at least one move, this has saved my ass on many occasions.

    As for dealing with Chlorophyll pokemon, I pack mixed Abomasnow. Even against Sunny Day Venusaur (yes I have faced one) Abomasnow wins with Expert Belt Ice Shard. Admittedly it was weakened and I haven't done the calc so idk if it would KO from full HP. My Abomasnow is Lonely, with 252 Atk EVs and an Expert Belt. Abomasnow also helps with rain and Gliscor/Landorus-T, and can lure Scizor into Hidden Power Fire if it wants to U-Turn all day to escape Magnezone. I won't be replacing Abomasnow on my team.
  7. Morgenstern

    Morgenstern

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    Ok tell me, how does a Latias prevent Stealth Rocks? Alot of people sacrifice their Pokemon in order to set up Stealth Rocks, also Venusaur isnt a massive problem until mid-late and hes only a problem if its running a Timid nature and is +2 but since its DragMag, it has difficulties setting up. And sadly i have seen alot of people run Modest Venusaur thinking that it still outspeeds everything so they prefer Power>Speed. Also the calc you did is the same damage a +2 Timid (84.05 - 99%) on a 0 HP/8 Sp Def Latias, there is no need to waste 112 evs on HP if you are gonna outspeed the Modest one and the Timid one has a 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rocks.

    And for the guy with the Abomasnow, max Attack Expert Belt Ice Shard only does (53.31 - 62.91%) so you basically lose 1v1.
  8. TaBuu

    TaBuu

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    Do you guys ever think Kyurem-Black will see its days in Ubers again?
    I mean, this guy has massive bulk that can be coupled together with Substitute and Roost. Kyurem-B has massive Attack power. I've noticed that pretty much any Pokemon with extremely retarded Uber-like stats always find themselves suspected. But it doesn't stop here. Kyurem-B can be versatile which sets it apart from things like Blissey, even though she has a godly HP Stat, who can only perform one job. Kyurem-B can go mixed, Banded, Scarfed or Sub.
    I don't know. I just feel like something with this much bulk, coverage and power might have a chance to get kicked back up... (?)
  9. Alter

    Alter adjective spaceman
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    In a sense, I agree. The whole 'lack of good coverage' idea is rather farfetch'd when it has a ridiculous 120 BP STAB move combined with a ridiculously godly 170 base attack which can rip anything into shreds.

    On the other hand, it's ice typing plain out sucks and is the main reason why I think it's still struggling in OU.
  10. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Probably the biggest reason Kyurem-B is struggling in OU along with its typing is its Speed. In Ubers, among the Dragons, 95 is pretty fast. However, in OU, where the benchmark is 100 Speed, and preferred is 108, Kyurem-B is outsped by almost all offensive pokemon used, and since offensive teams are so common, people shy away from it. Add to that its typing, and you are sad. Just because its OU doesn't mean it cannot be used in Ubers, and it is pretty good up there still. IMO it is underrated, but it is slow with bad typing. However, it is easily the best Sub user in the OU tier.
  11. Curtains

    Curtains

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    Anyone else find Ferrothorn to be completely annoying? With iron barbs and rocky helmet it just a pain to kill... You can only KO it with fire moves or powerful fighting attacks. Even if you do damage you will take some huge damage from its item and ability.All this while it leech seeds and sets up hazards... The only real way to beat this thing is to trap it... Because if you switch in something you might get leech seeded or paralyzed.... Then if you hit it and don't KO you take massive damage just to kill it. It is a really hard thing to team build around and is probably the best defensive pokemon in the tier atm as it covers so much and is a pain to switch in.

    @ victinivcreate1

    gyro ball
  12. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Ferro is setup bait for Landorus Incarnate.

    Rock Polish

    sweep.
  13. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I do not know why Ferrothorn would be hard to beat. Ferrothorn dies to just about any Fire-type attack. Even rain does not stop Ferrothorn from be 2HKOed or even OHKOed by most Fire-type attacks. Heatran, many Dragon-types, most Pokémon found on sun teams... All them threathen Ferrothorn with Fire-type attacks. Fighting-type attacks are also a problem, and with Keldeo and Terrakion running around, Ferrothorn has a lot of problems. Another thing is that Ferrothorn just isn't what it used to be in terms of walling. It dies to many neutral attacks found nowadays, such as Scizor's Bug Bite, Landorus' Earth Power and Earthquake, Tornadus' Hurricane... Ferrothorn is also setup bait for many, many Pokémon. This includes Steel-types such as Heatran, opposing Ferrothorn, and Forretress. All in all, Ferrothorn is not a pain to take down and is not hard to switch in. This does not mean that it is not a threat. Just means that Ferrothorn is not what you are saying that it is.
  14. yee

    yee
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    Definitely. What I've noticed myself doing is stacking up on leads that can beat it like WoW Rotom-W, SR Terrak, general Sash Taunt leads etc. so it can't even start pulling its crap. From there it's a matter of having a Skarm / Tran / Tangrowth for balance and not letting it get free turns with offense, Terrakion / Lando can OHKO no matter what spread it uses which helps and it can't beat many set up threats if it has to switch into them.
  15. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
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    There has been an incredible amount of sun-stall on ladder.
  16. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I haven't seen any, surprisingly. All the time recently I've been seeing Sand Stall or Weatherless Balanced teams. I haven't seen a Sun team or Rain team in a while, which does not make sense.
  17. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    I've seen a lot of sand stall and rain stall teams lately. Most of the sand stall teams are variations of Meru's RMT from a while ago, while most of the rain stalls I see are pretty hastily put together (it seems to me) and are pretty weak to Breloom in general. It has been interesting though, as stall seems to be becoming slightly more popular.
  18. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly formerly Issues

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    I enjoy the appraisal stall players are receiving in this metagame, in a different time such players would receive hate comments for stalling. Stall requires more then a band wagon of "cool" top offensive threats to work in such a high paced meta.
  19. dcae

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    Yeah practically all the sand stall teams are variations of armoaticity. I feel like this is very important that stall is gaining footing among the elite once again, as it once was a dying type of playstyle. I haven't seen much of Rain stall though, more balanced Rain teams.
  20. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly formerly Issues

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    Which is odd seeing as Tentacruel is an everlasting force with Rain up, also Ferrothorn strives hindering it's fire weakness. Dragonite and Latias are a great stallbreakers under rain, although getting ridding of opposing Ferrothorn is a pain.
  21. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Mad, mad love
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    Ok, the past few days I've been seeing TOO much stall. Maybe it's because I'm totally biased and hate stall, but I just had like five stall matches in a row. Obviously stall becomes more prevalent (and better) the higher you get on the ladder, but it just annoys me. I need a spinner on my team -___-
  22. dcae

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    Well, on the bright side, this shows that the meta has finally balanced out, with almost every type of team able to succeed. This is exactly what needs to be achieved, and the current meta is doing a very good job of it.
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    What is everyone's opinion about Zapdos? It is one of the few Pokemon that can counter Landorus consistently as long as SR is off the field, and has a lot of use against rain teams, easily beating 1-on-1 most Pokemon that rain teams carry (even SpD Celebi that lack P-Song eventually run out of Recover PPs and can't really do much to Zapdos if it has Substitute). Also, it acts as a pretty good damn check to any CM Jirachi with Roar, and has that sweet Volt Switch to act as a good pivot and preserve momentum.

    I know that the SpD set is great and it works, however i want to hear some opinion about the offensive set (3 attacks + Roost + LO or 3 attacks + Volt Switch/U-turn + Lefties) and the speedy SubRoost set (enough Speed to outrun Modest Landorus). Do you believe that they have any merit on this meta, and on what kind of teams do you use those sets? How are they different from the more popular SpD set and why would you use those sets over it?

    Also please refrain from answering if you haven't used any of those sets, as i want opinions from people with playtesting experience with them.
  24. BKC

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    while zapdos is a horrible landorus counter (it's one of the better checks), the sdef set is a good mon in general. it's got a lot of cool options it can mess around with.

    offensive zapdos is completely outclassed by thundurus-t.
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Well, Heat Wave, better bulk, and Roost are all qualities that Thundurus-T lacks, meaning that offensive Zapdos is not completely outclassed. I agree with you that it is generally outclassed, but i want to see if anyone has found some little useful niche for it.

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