1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. Alexander.

    Alexander.
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2012
    Messages:
    1,664
    I found Specially Defensive Zapdos extremely useful. It's a good Landorus-I check, it checks Rain teams and it's very helpful against Sun teams too (Zapdos is bulky enough to tank a hit from Venusaur and to KO back with Heat Wave). It has also nice coverage moves, Electric + Ice + Fire is somewhat which many Pokemon wish to have. However, in my eyes a Substitute Roost one is viable nowadays, honestly I never tried it in BW2 but I used it a lot in BW1 and it was like a beast, able to set a Substitute on many Pokemon and to stall them out with the support of Entry Hazards (especially the Toxic Spikes, it can work like a Substitute Kyurem) so maybe it's interesting in BW2 too.
  2. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,443
    man, this metagame is driving me insane. my main beef with it atm is how hard it is to be creative while maintaining effectiveness. if i'm going defensive, i have to resort to the same old shit in order to not get steamrolled by these ridiculously powerful pokemon meaning a lot of my teams look very similar. it seems as if i don't revert to the tried-and-true methods of holding these threats off, i'll get destroy. almost always gotta use landorus-t for terrakion, sdef celebi for keld/lando (they've been getting cute with their bug moves lately though). the offensive teams i make are also very similar since it's no secret what works best with one another while keeping threats in check. every rain/sun team is identical and each have their dumb matchup issues, hail is gimmicky, weatherless is fun but basically a disadvantage against any team abusing weather, sand is the most reliable but all of the sand teams i make/see are the same unless the method of covering threats they use is inferior to the standard.
  3. Meru

    Meru
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2005
    Messages:
    885
    I agree with the above post. I can't break out of my sand stall team because everything just seems to be some damped down version of another team I've seen. Not sure if this is what people call a "balanced" metagame but it has definitely lost its creative edge.
  4. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    260
    I get by using non-defensive checks reasonably well. Here's a weatherless team with 0 defensive checks, Whimsicott comes close but its more of a check to set-up if anything. What irks me about this metagame is that you have to prepare so well for rain teams, you can often get steamrolled by a sun team stacking 4 or 5 offenders that would not necessarily do well (against rain or sand it'd easily lose) if you weren't to have a weather less team -.-

    I'm talking those Ninetails/Venusaur/Darmanitan/Volcarona/Forretress/Sawsbuck teams or w/e they tend to be.

    My current weatherless team below.

    Show Hide
    Alakazam @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Substitute
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Shadow Ball

    Garchomp @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Earthquake
    - Outrage
    - Fire Fang

    Dugtrio @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Reversal
    - Sucker Punch

    Whimsicott @ Leftovers
    Trait: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Impish Nature
    - Encore
    - U-turn
    - Taunt
    - Leech Seed

    Keldeo @ Life Orb
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Taunt
    - Secret Sword
    - Surf
    - Hidden Power [Dark]

    Lucario @ Life Orb
    Trait: Inner Focus
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Adamant Nature
    - Swords Dance
    - Close Combat
    - ExtremeSpeed
    - Crunch


    Notice how I have 0 things that can switch into Terrakion reliably :P it still does perfectly fine against it. I play 90% of my teams strategies around trying to delay their SR and facilitate the fastest SR possible as I believe that is usually the key to winning. This team doesn't mind SR at all though.
  5. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    Tbh, while I agree with BKC to an extent, I also think that the lack of creativity "allowed" by the meta is more than a little bit a figment of people's imagination. I'm going to use my recent RMT as an example here - I started with Keldeo and Thundurus (now Landorus), and added Zoroark instead of Tyranitar because I a) wanted to see how it would work, and b) could think of a lot of reasons it would be superior. Since I wasn't using Tyranitar, but needed weather control, I used Abomasnow instead...and so on. My point is, if you start unconventionally, that will necessitate making more unconventional choices. If you use the same combinations of pokemon, then you'll usually be forced into using the same partners, because they synergise the best with them. Obviously, this is much more relevant for offense rather than defense, because there are certain pokemon like Terrakion which necessitate one of about six defensive pokemon being used if you're playing stall. But stall's been like that forever; all roads lead to Rome, essentially.
  6. Zarco

    Zarco

    Joined:
    Feb 22, 2011
    Messages:
    168
    I recently started using a dual weather team, using both BandTar and Politoed to support Keldeo, and to always be able to stop opposing weather. It's working pretty well. Has anyone else tried this out?
  7. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    Yeah, I've seen it a few times. Tbh though, in most scenarios I feel like you're better off using Scizor than Tyranitar, since in the Rain it traps the same targets just as effectively, and counters many of the same things as Tar but with more overall utility.
  8. Memphis Grizzly

    Memphis Grizzly

    Joined:
    Apr 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,006

    I must say I love this post.

    Anyways, I feel the same about the meta game being dried out of creativity. Also if you happen to have one creative set or two on a team of standard pokes you'll still get crowned upon with a copy&paste noob.
  9. oSeasons

    oSeasons
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2012
    Messages:
    118
    While developing a new team, I try my best to use pokemon that are hardly seen in the OU metagame while using innovative movesets but they are never good enough to win consistently so I eventually end up resorting back to my usual combinations of pokemon. In our current metagame, it's definitely very difficult to make a solid team without havin to implement the typical defensive and offensive cores.
  10. dcae

    dcae naughty list

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,173
    I actually think you can make a decent amount of creative sets in the current meta, especially mixing and matching Salac Berry and different new moves on various Pokémon.

    This is an improved meta though, it cannot be denied, because many different playstyles can be used, despite a decent restriction on choices of Pokémon.
  11. AJR

    AJR

    Joined:
    Apr 23, 2013
    Messages:
    5
    I remember back in the Tornadus-T days, literally every non-HO team had to have Jirachi / Zapdos + Latias / Celebi / Amoonguss. Things have definitely improved since then.

    Btw, what do you guys think is the most centralizing pokemon in the meta right now (barring Politoed)? Keldeo or Lando would be my picks.
  12. dcae

    dcae naughty list

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2011
    Messages:
    1,173
    I'd have to say Landorus, because honestly every team needs a check to it or they die painfully. Keldeo is more dependent on teammates and has many more Pokemon that counter it.
  13. Scorpiopt

    Scorpiopt

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2013
    Messages:
    266
    I Used Offensive Zapdos for quite some time great rain counter , wen i used the opponents usually complain that they didn't expect it , wen they realized it was offensive it was too late
    Zapdos can do a lot of work on its own
  14. George Eliot

    George Eliot

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    104
    Zapdos is...cool, but...I always felt that, while it has a clear niche (checking a lot of stuff really well, SubRoost stalling) it has so many counters and opponents would inevitably be running one or more of them. Basically it makes it really hard to do anything once you actually get in. Personally, the most success I had with Zappy was to use it along Ferrothorn and just spam Roar to rack up Spikes damage.
  15. Soul Fly

    Soul Fly IMMA TEACH YOU WHAT SPLASHIN' MEANS
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jan 16, 2013
    Messages:
    1,684
    On the offensive spectrum Thundurus-T completely outclasses Zapdos, with that Gargantuan SpA stat and that Speed which is just slightly higher but allows it to beat all base 100s, something Zapdos has to speed tie with. Coupled with Volt Absorb which is definitely a notch better than Pressure. But even if pressure were released, Zapdos would be a poor man's Thundurus-T at best.

    On the other hand if we are talking about Defensive sets, Zapdos, definitely has the upper hand. With the much better bulk, and roost to back it up added with only 2 weaknesses with 5 amazing resistances against very common types faced in the game, Zapdos can stall you like hell, add Pressure to the equation and you'll soon start to tun out of PP of moves that can do S-E damage to Zapdos, which is crucial considering that Stone Edge will usually be the most common coverage option you'll have against it.
  16. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,231
    I'm sorry, but it's posts like these that sap away a lot of fun from the game. Seriously, if you get pissed off every time you play the game, then stop playing. You're not getting paid to play. Try and lighten up and enjoy what we have. The metagame does change. A couple of months ago, rain was dominating. Now sand has made a return. Who knows what could happen next. I really think creativity is stifled when people start complaining about it. So what if everything is the same? Why can't you be the first one to try that different move or different set? I really think if you can't find a way to be creative in this metagame, then you are not trying hard enough. It saddens me to see people complaining that there is no creativity when I'm the one running around using shit like Double Dance Skarmory and DD Latios and whatever hits my fancy. These things were even mildly successful. I've even tried shit like Specs Articuno recently as well. Sure, it completely fell apart, but I sure as hell had fun with it. You guys need to learn that your primary goal when playing Pokemon is, while to be competitive and stimulate your neurons, to have fun. Pokemon is a game. I really think we need to learn to celebrate the metagame we've made instead of being so negative about it. The metagame doesn't stifle creativity, only attitudes do.
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,345
    Totally agreeing with shrang! If you are always using the same cookie-cutter teams and then say ''OU is boring'' then this is clearly your fault. You don't always have to build the most competitive teams that can get you at the top of the ladder you know. When playing on the ladder, sometimes having fun is more important than winning more. You can build a perfectly viable team that uses some original Pokemon or strategies and still win the majority of your games with good playing. I really don't get some good tour players that bitch about the metagame being boring when they don't really try to use anything to change this. Also, it is much more enjoying, fun, and rewarding to peak at the ladder with an underused Pokemon/strategy, as it means you have to try harder, and i thought that good players liked such challenges. You have tours to go all out and use the best to try and win, why do the same to the ladder and not just relax and try to have some fun?

    In the past month, i have been using two of my Moltres rain teams, one HO team with Accelgor and 5 Pokemon that don't care about hazards, and an offensive team that features SubPass Mienshao, and they have all been very fun to play with and were very decent when i was playing correctly. I get it that this meta is not the best ever, but bitching is not going to do anything, so try and change it a bit yourselves too (the ladder at least).

    As for offensive Zapdos, from the little experience i had with it, it is a good option to use alongside vicious offensive Pokemon that have troubles with Breloom and Scizor, two offensive Pokemon that are difficult to deal with for some teams, and Thundurus-T rarely can take a hit from. For example, Terrakion makes for a very good partner to Zapdos, as the only way to deal with it is priority, revenge killing, and a few soft-counters, such as Landorus-T, Gliscor, and Hippo. Zapdos deals with the priority that troubles Terrakion, with some of the revenge killers that trouble Terrakion (Jirachi, choiced Fighting moves), and even with most Ground-types provided it switches in for free.
  18. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,443
    don't give me that horseshit. how about you try using that gimmicky trash in a tournament against actual good players before you tell me that garbage like double dance skarmory (this is a joke right?) is viable. you can be creative, sure, but only for the sake of being creative. you cannot get (too) innovative without using (mostly) inferior options against good players. of course we want to have fun, but we play to win. take that "use shitty pokemon and lose for the sake of having fun" mentality to serebii.
  19. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    What would Double Dance Skarmory even use? STAB Brave Bird, STAB Steel Wing, Night Slash, Return, X-Scissor, Rock Slide. I can't think of picking two of these without thinking "walled by this type"
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    6,345
    Let's not get stuck on minor details. Even excluding very gimmicky options such as Double Dance Skarmory, Articuno, and even Moltres (or the whole D-Rank list if you want), all the Pokemon in the B and C Rank of the viability ranking list are viable options and can be used without being outclassed or being used just for the sake of creativity, as long as you put a little more thought into building a team with them. As for the best choices being limited in this meta, i think it's always have been this way for the OU tier. If you want to use the best of the best and be as competitive as possible, of 'course you will have to choose from a somehow limited amount of Pokemon and play styles, as the top Pokemon in this tier are so good that force a big amount of centralization, leaving only a few Pokemon at the spotlight.
  21. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 22, 2010
    Messages:
    3,443
    it has not "always been this way for OU". i could go on forever about how you can get creative in DPP without necessarily resorting to inferior options. i'm less experienced with ADV but it applies there even moreso. i think we could get to this level in BW if we got rid of goddamn sun/rain/even sand... look at UU, they've got it figured out. they got rid of sun & sand. the result? UU is arguably the best BW tier.
  22. Conflict

    Conflict And who are you, the proud lord said That I must bow so low?
    is a Pre-Contributoris a SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Jul 30, 2009
    Messages:
    697
    I used several teams with UU mons for OST and got to semis.....
    Feraligatr won the whole thing.

    Your point?
  23. Spirit

    Spirit
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Mar 3, 2013
    Messages:
    1,036
    I'd say RU gets the crown this gen. Otherwise, I kinda agree.
  24. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,231
    Funnily enough, it's in tournaments where gimmicks actually thrive. Tournaments is where most of these new and cool sets come from, like your HP Bug Keldeos and what not. It's up to you to test out new things. So what if they're inferior? At least you tried. Failure is only another word for success. You cannot be innovative without making mistakes. Maybe you should realise this before berating the metagame because you're the one who's afraid of failing a couple of times to succeed in the long run and create new things. Again, like I said, if you're getting pissed off at the metagame, then stop playing. No-one's paying to do it. Your negative attitude is the only thing that's stifling creativity, not the metagame.
  25. yee

    yee
    is a Tutoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2010
    Messages:
    1,111
    Are you really gonna tell a Team East'er that he's never seen or used anything different, or that he needs to run things like SD Skarm / Specs Articuno that are obviously going to fail just because? You're both entitled to opinions but that looks like a wrong opinion to me.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)