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BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Tobes, Jun 23, 2012.

  1. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    I've been seeing a lot of sand recently. I've barely seen any rain or sun at all. Pretty much every sand team I've seen has Tyranitar instead of Hippowdon, and are offensive oriented and feature Keldeo or Landorus. I just find it interesting that rain has dropped in popularity so much. I guess that's to be expected now that Tornadus-T and Genesect are banned, but I feel that it's seen a dramatic drop in popularity.
  2. Lavos Spawn

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    really? i would expect rain to be the most prevalent playstyle on the ladder seeing as it's the easiest sort of team to build and the simplest style to play with. i think you're wrong in your perception that rain has seen a "dramatic drop" in usage, since a) the usage stats say otherwise, and b) rain's the strongest thing out there right now so why would it suddenly see a popularity drop? maybe you need to ladder more. i'm also surprised you've seen very little sun, because again the usage stats say sun's still pretty prevalent and there's no reason why sun would drop in usage either. they're the two most abusable strategies in the current metagame, and you're telling me people are failing to abuse them? i find that hard to believe. tornadus-t being banned hasn't stopped rain so far, and genesect helped sand and sun just as much, if not more than it helped rain, so those points aren't valid reasons why rain would theoretically be used less. still, your experience is interesting to say the very least. i'm surprised in the perceived prevalence of tyranitar as opposed to hippowdon, since i've been rather firmly convinced that in the current metagame, hippo is way better, but that's a matter of personal preference (though there are statistics backing up both positions). keldeo and landorus are no surprise at all, since they're the first and second offensive threats that come to mind when any adequate player is teambuilding nowadays. i'd be interested to hear how often you came across landorus-t, since if people aren't using hippowdon that implies to me that they're using lando-t as a substitute ground-type physical wall.
  3. ciaranroy

    ciaranroy

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    I just had a three hour session and didn't see Hippowdon or Landorus-T once. It could be because I'm only about 1600 on the ladder, and they are seen much more on battlers that are much better than me. I only saw three sun teams, and about ten rain. Most teams were either sand or weatherless, mostly offensive.
  4. ShootingStarmie

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    I'd say the teams you mostly see on the ladder are weatherless at around 1600, mainly because you're being paired up with non serious battlers (using Pokemon they like instead of Pokemon that are actually good). Generally Politoed, Ninetales, Tyranitar, Hippodown, and Abomasnow aren't fan favorites, and genrally aren't used as much as say Blastiose. Take a look at the "1337" (1850) stats, and you'll see a much clearer picture of how rain dominates this metagame. Once you get into the 1850's, you'll rarely see a mono posion team, which is commonly seen low on the ladder, which effects the usage stats (obviously).
  5. vyomov

    vyomov

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    I myself play weatherless(am REALLY low on the ladder) but play Trick Room, which I believe has potential.
    Metagross is the defining difference between most other Trick Room teams and mine, which I think can make the difference.
    So what are your opinions on the viability of Trick room considering the rat-race for the fastest pokemon and the overwhelming majority trying to outspeed?
  6. ShootingStarmie

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    Trick Room has and is a very un common strategy. And for a good reason. It just isn't that good. Trick Room just doesn't last long enough to actually abuse. Metagross is a cool option I guess in Trick Room, but that's a really really small niche for Metagross, as it's generally outclassed offensively by Scizor, and defensively by Jirachi.

    Reuniclus and Conkeldurr are argubly the best Trick Room sweepers, but if you take a look at the latest usage stats, you'll see that they are close to drop to UU.

    Trick Room just isn't that good. That doesn't mean you shouldn't use it if you want to, but don't expect too many wins.
  7. ZandgaiaX

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    If you want trick room, Reuniclus is very good as a solo-user of it. The little guy is such an anti-meta at the moment, magic guard + trick room is just reason enough to at least try it I'd say.

    For an entire team based around it, I'm not sure. It seems out of place, heck it wasn't even that work-able in Gen 4.
  8. Tassa

    Tassa

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    Politoed is used according to stats in around 20% of team. Weatherless or Sand are something like 70% : it's normal to see more of them than rain, and random doesn't help.
  9. vyomov

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    Actually not that bad. I once tried a Sun-trick room team with Exeggutor. With Sun up, Eggy is quite bulky thanks to Sitrus Berry and can set up on things a lot of the time.
    Another advantage is that Heatran has amazing synergy with Trick Room, as does Gastrodon(anti-rain)
  10. Asek

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    Sand is about as easy as rain considering how easy it is to slap CBtar / Keld / RP lando onto a team and then just build around it. Sand and rain are usually about even in usage from my experience on the ladder, with sun being a little bit behind ( a lot of sun users on the ladder have no clue how to play it). I'm surprised if anything DragMag isn't used more on the ladder. It performs pretty well against most team style and is a nice and easy way to quickly climb the ladder. Its pretty consistent and doesn't generally have bad match ups to certain team types like the weathers tend to do (rain generally being weak to hail etc)
  11. Meru

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    I've been seeing Analytic LO Starmie on the ladder lately. Murders Jellicent attempting to spinblock it. Nice to see people having to resort to actual anti-stall tactics lately instead of just naturally having enough power to plow through any defensive core they want.
  12. RotomPoison

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    Honestly I don't see why Haxorus and Reuniclus are so low. TR: Focus Miss beats Ttar. Psyshock beats Toed + Tales. Hippowdown can be dealt with otherwise, plus if either TR or CM setup, then Recover, kinda GG.

    Haxorus, Lum DD, again why not used as much, Outrage + Low Kick + EQ is great even though it would like Fire Punch > EQ. Try some calcs at +1 with Both of them (except TR reuniclus)

    Also to those saying things will drop, not everything under 7% will drop (this goes for all tiers)
  13. Soul Fly

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    No doubt Haxorus is an offensive monster, but then you have Dragonite who has the exact role and has a much consistent set-up+sweep rate with better bulk and not to mention multiscale which just makes it so much better to use than hax. Plus it has a super-asset in Extremespeed. a +2 priority which haxorus doesn't have which makes it super easy to revenge kill.

    put 2+2 together and you can easily see why Haxorus is overshadowed.
  14. Curtains

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    Since we are talking about haxorus I found scarfed haxorus to be a very good pokemon. It has just enough power to get the KOs that you need with outrage. I found it to be a very surprising weapon with enough power to hold if I dont play him correctly.
  15. PK Gaming

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    One of the main reasons you don't see Haxorus used at all because it's not appealing to many of the top players. It has many great offensive options (Swords Dance, Dragon Dance, Earthquake, Superpower / Low Kick) an overkill attack stat, and it's brain dead easy to use, but a subpar speed and shockingly bad defensive stats makes it a worse choice than practically every offensive Dragon in the tier. That last point is actually pretty important. What's the point of having an awesome mono Dragon-typing when threats like Specs Hydro Pump are always OHKOing you in the rain. Haxorus can't survive a from +2 Jolly Mach Punch Breloom, +2 ExtremeSpeed from Lucario, and +2 Bullet Bunch from Scizor. (while Garchomp can) It can't switch into anything in BW OU, and it has to rely on double switches or revenge KOs which are pretty risky.

    Dragonite has Multiscale, Garchomp's got hilarious durability and not too shabby offensive, Kyurem-B can actually switch into several Pokemon, and is mad powerful once it gets going. This doesn't mean that Haxorus is a bad Pokemon, but it finds itself in a position where it has no real reason to be used outside of "I kind of like this Pokemon." (that and DragSpam team, but fuck those teams).

    I think it's pretty telling when top players AND regular players aren't experimenting with Haxorus at all.

    I think of a couple reason why people don't use Reuniclus;
    It's hard to do anything in a tier where you have to deal with Pokemon who do 300% with rain boosted Hydro Pumps or stupidly powerful Earth Powers. Jirachi & CB Tyranitar being everywhere doesn't help either.
  16. HabibsHotDogs

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    Haxorus has an outdated role.. thats why it is not used. Its double dance role is outclassed by none but... there are very few if any stall/bulky teams that Haxorus would want to plough through that other powerful threats can't plough through anyway...

    It's not as easy as you say it is to revenge it with scarfers because there are only so many that carry SE moves, even scarf Keldeo and scarf Terrakion (currently common scarfers) can't ohko haxorus after SR damage.

    As for scarfed dragon/ice attacks, just pack a resist to set up on it (i.e. Lucario).

    Whats left is an underwhelming dragon, despite having a clear cut role it isn't outclassed in, the other dragons are all most useful in other actually relevant roles!
  17. Doughboy

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    Guys, what are your opinions on Alakazam?

    Over the past few months I have seen Zam climb steadily and surely up the usage stats. Starting in the beginning of this year, Alakazam started out at 8.8% at spot #23 in usage and now it has risen to #17 to 10.1% on the stats last month.

    Alakazam has some cool traits that come together about it that few other Pokemon (if there are any) can really offer. First, Alakazam can really be custom tailored to a team needs and acts as a wildcard to the opponent. With Focus Sash + Magic Guard, you can assure yourself that a sweeper of your choice can never sweep your team and just be a huge block to opposing offensive teams. HP Ice? Say goodbye +6 DD Dragonites and Landorus-I's. You can do likewise for SD Scizor with HP Fire. HP Rock can sort of get the job done on Volcarona if you have a strong priority user to follow up on the attack. This is also not considering what just your normal moves net you such as a safety net against Double Dancing Terrakions and Calm Mind Keldeos with Psyshock. There is other annoying crap you can put on Sash Zam like Encore and Thunder Wave.

    Life Orb offers the same wild-card nature as the Focus Sash set, but not as to great of a degree. Taunt can be devastating towards more defensive teams, Charge Beam can make a deadly powerful and fast threat, and it can run coverage moves like the HP's, Signal Beam, and Grass Knot (personal favorite to hit Tyranitar, Sp. Def Hippowdon, and Jellicent HARD without missing). The standard Substitute is also very deadly. Alakazam is one of the few very fast Pokemon with great power, so it can be a great asset against offense (especially against Starmie's trying to spin hazards). Lastly, Zam is pretty self-sufficient and requires very minimal support because of Magic Guard. All it really needs is some U-turn/Volt Switch support and you will be surprised on how much you get your frail little Zam in the game (Scizor is great). Hazards help a ton too especially with the aforementioned U-turn support.
  18. Lavos Spawn

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    the only alakazam worth using right now is the focus sash 4 attacks set. it's an excellent catch-all for boosting sweepers, and has some nice coverage that lends it a very unique niche in the ou metagame. psychic hits really hard, focus blast can take out normally solid psychic-type checks like tyranitar and heatran, and access to signal beam makes it one of the few common special attackers that can bypass celebi. don't use shadow ball, it sucks. magic guard and focus sash together guarantee that it will tank at least one attack, unless the move in question is a multi-hit attack like icicle spear or bullet seed. i guess the problem with zam lies in the choice between hp ice and hp fire; whereas hp ice can ohko dnite after rocks, lando, gliscor, etc., hp fire is also really important for taking out one of hp ice zam's best checks, scizor. the choice between the two is pretty difficult, since whatever you choose leaves you open to something else. i usually go with hp ice since stopping sweepers like dragonite and landorus is what zam is all about, but anything works. the prevalence of both sdef and scarf jirachi also really hurts zam's viability, since it can't do anything to the former and gets brought down to its sash by the latter's faster u-turn. kinda disappointing that such a good pokemon is countered by one of the other best pokemon. overall i'd say alakazam is medium-level ou, i think it's pretty great for enabling more bulky hyper-offensive teams but some people just hate it and i think i understand why.
  19. Nysyr

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    I think psyshock holds more value than psychic to get past CM Keldeo, the blobs, jelly to an extent, and tentacruel (I think terrakion can take one psychic in sand from zam). HP ice is probably more useful as the prevalance in rain makes HP fire somewhat a bad choice (Spdef ferro lives 1 hit from zam anyways), also the only thing scizor is gonna do is BP, so you dedicate zam to scizor only (they will often switch out till your sash is broken anyways). I think with zam you need to be going after things that are in reach if near OHKOing, or at least being very revengable.
  20. Pocket

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    Yea, with Keldeo, Sheer Force Landorus, and even Thundurus-T and Kyurem-Black, the power level just skyrocketed in OU. What used to be decent in OU have been bumped down a notch because of that. Kyurem-Black especially gives Haxorus competition, but I still believe Haxorus has things going for it, such as being one of the go-to DD Sweepers in a Dual Screen team (watch out for Scarf Latios, though), which are not as crazy popular as back in BW1 (which may explain the decline of Haxorus). There's always CB Haxorus, too, because Kyurem-Black is usually better off using a Substitute set, and Haxorus can take physical hits better than KyuB by virtue of its better typing. It does lose the title of having the strongest Outrage, though (even Jolly Kyurem-B has more Attack than Adamant Haxorus).

    OTR Reuniclus is probably more effective now since people are starting to run less specially defensive Jirachi and this metagame focuses on Speed more than ever. However, it is definitely not meta anymore, being overshadowed by Keldeo, Landorus, and Thundurus.
  21. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    The issue with Psyshock is that Focus Sash Alakazam is already kind of weak, and Psyshock makes it harder for you to hurt physically orientated Pokemon. It doesn't have much utility worth noting against Chansey and Blissey (The former is 4HKOed, while the latter needs Stealth Rock, and 1 layer of Spikes to be 2HKOed)and Keldeo gets smashed by Psychic at +1 anyway. I think it's worth noting that Sash Alakazam is actually kind of weak offensively, it's true strength lies in its coverage, which lets it get the drop down on a ton of Pokemon. It's pretty much why I love HP Ice on zam. Sure beating down Scizor is nice, but OHKOing all of the 4X Ice-weaks is too good to pass up.
  22. Nysyr

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    Well, when you try to think of something that psychic stab actually hits... you draw many blanks. So while psychic may hit harder than psyshock, what does it even hit, if not something that is for SE damage?. Forgot to mention Volc, but meh.

    Like you said, its pretty much only there because of coverage moves.

    Edit: List of things that matter for psychic over psyshock not covered by other moves:

    Conkeldurr
    Mamoswine (if you don't want to risk focus miss)
    Cloyster (again, focus miss)
    Politoed (if defensive)

    most important on the list probably
    Keldeo/Terrakion (assuming not in sand), 100% chance KO vs 50% chance KO.

    Pretty much end list right there, everything else FB/Sigbeam/HP ice covers. And stealth rock/spikes/sand makes that bit irrelevant.
  23. vyomov

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    OK, so I'd like to start a discussion based on, save Smeargle, the most versatile Pokemon EVER: Mew
    So guys, do you have any creative Mew sets you like to use?
    This is my favorite on a Rain team:
    [​IMG]
    Mew@Life Orb
    EVs: 252 SpA/252 Spe/4 HP
    - Nasty Plot/Charge Beam
    - Surf
    - Aura Sphere
    - Psychic
    This set can actually sweep with the right assistance. After a Nasty Plot, anything not called Kingdra is taking BIG damage from Nasty Plot Life Orb Rain boosted Surf.
    You don't believe this set can sweep?
    Blissey (OU Support)Aura Sphere 41.87 - 49.38%
    That means that after SR, 2HKO.
    Alternatively, you can run HP Bug to beat Celebi or HP Ice to beat Celebi AS well as Dragonite.
    Save Blissey, Chansey and the odd Pokemon that can wall your set(depends on coverage), almost every pokemon is beat after a Plot by Mew in the rain.
  24. victinivcreate1

    victinivcreate1

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    Scarf Keldeo used Hydro Pump!!!
    252 SpA Keldeo Hydro Pump vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Mew in rain: 294-346 (85.96 - 101.16%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO

    With SR, thats an 87.5% to be OHKOed. Sorry, this doesn't work as well in practice as it does on paper. Mew is a great pokemon, but for a sweeper, its slow and walled fairly easily depending on coverage moves.
  25. BKC

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    the only mew thats worth using atm is taunt wisp.

    toxic gliscor is really good atm. tox/protect/eq are mandatory, and the last can be sub/taunt/even sr. it annoys a lot of shit.

    also uturn/tbolt/hp ice/superpower ebelt thundurus-t is pretty ridiculous...

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