BW2 General Metagame Discussion Thread

[chimpact]

Rotom-W handles Tornadus-T + Dugtrio exceptionally well. Genesect deals a hefty amount of damage with U-turn, but you can Rest/Pain split the health back.

Genesect is a huge threat and the surprise factor of a unique set can win games alone. I definitely agree it is suspect.

 

[Lavos]

Genesect is a huge threat and the surprise factor of a unique set can win games alone. I definitely agree it is definitely suspect.

I noticed recently that 95% of Genesect are Choice Scarf these days, so I've started using an Expert Belt variant and it's really doing work on stuff. My team looks like Genesect would logically be Scarfed, so it makes it even easier for me to bluff it and catch something severely off-balance with a move they weren't expecting.

However, I don't agree with you that it is suspect material. Many Pokemon threaten it when it's not Scarfed, and the Scarf set has to lock itself into an attack, so it becomes laughably easy to check, especially if you happen to be packing Protect. Heatran and the pink blobs both wall it hard - granted, it has U-Turn, which can make things dicey, but in a 1v1 situation standard Genesect will never win that matchup. For that reason, Choice Band Genesect sounds intruiging right about now - if it wasn't for the sheer volume of bulky waters running around I might give it some more thought. Anyways, my point being that sure, Genesect is strong, but it has its checks and counters, just like all the other strong OU Pokemon. How do you beat Specs Latios without a bulky Steel-type or Tyranitar? Yeah, exactly. There's a reason most teams carry one of those two, and that's because Latios is such a big threat. Same thing for Genesect. We've already seen Heatran usage rise drastically to combat it. It's a top-tier OU Pokemon, no doubt about that, but it's definitely not Excadrill or Thundurus.

 

[The Grand Babido]

the thing is that specs latios cannot seamlessly run away from its counters and turn the tide of the battle so easily. in fact, half the time latios cannot do the first bit before it is pursuit trapped by tyranitar, scizor or metagross (if youre haunter). genesect is so good at forcing out its something it threatens, accruing residual damage and giving something a chance to do serious damage. u-turning out of heatran to terrakion is a very common scenario and there is nothing worse than going up against a cb terrakion given a free switch-in. because of terrakion's power, your opponent is only really going to be able to switch into it a small number of times and eventually they are going to have to decide whether their terrakion or genesect switch-in is more important.

my point about genesect is that it effortlessly bypasses its counters and turns them into a potential liability, which is something latios cannot do (you can argue prediction, but obviously that isnt 'effortless' and you are not chipping away either). often the best move is to switch your own genesect into your opponent's as it uturns as an attempt to regain momentum. it is hard to argue genesect as broken, in fact it does not come close given the conventional definition, but in my opinion it is entirely detrimental to the metagame.

 

[yee]

Congrats on your first post in the OU forum Heist! We look forward to many more.

Personally, if Genesect was on the chopping block and I have a vote its gone. I still go by the old characteristics of a desirable metagame laid out by Doug and don't understand why they aren't timeless. What it does it directly narrow down the diversity of the game by being far and away the pivot to run- Sun used to at least look a little bit different every now and then. If this sounds too simple I actually compiled lists of viable pokemon in a meta without Gene / other broken stuff and the current one and the former is fluffier with a more level playing field.

And it would be better than this trash meta

 

[Joel]

I noticed recently that 95% of Genesect are Choice Scarf these days, so I've started using an Expert Belt variant and it's really doing work on stuff. My team looks like Genesect would logically be Scarfed, so it makes it even easier for me to bluff it and catch something severely off-balance with a move they weren't expecting.

However, I don't agree with you that it is suspect material. Many Pokemon threaten it when it's not Scarfed, and the Scarf set has to lock itself into an attack, so it becomes laughably easy to check, especially if you happen to be packing Protect. Heatran and the pink blobs both wall it hard - granted, it has U-Turn, which can make things dicey, but in a 1v1 situation standard Genesect will never win that matchup. For that reason, Choice Band Genesect sounds intruiging right about now - if it wasn't for the sheer volume of bulky waters running around I might give it some more thought. Anyways, my point being that sure, Genesect is strong, but it has its checks and counters, just like all the other strong OU Pokemon. How do you beat Specs Latios without a bulky Steel-type or Tyranitar? Yeah, exactly. There's a reason most teams carry one of those two, and that's because Latios is such a big threat. Same thing for Genesect. We've already seen Heatran usage rise drastically to combat it. It's a top-tier OU Pokemon, no doubt about that, but it's definitely not Excadrill or Thundurus.

I think you might have beaten me before with your set (the Expert Belt one). If it wasn't you, it was someone with your same ideal.

Usually, when I see Genesect, I expect it to be Scarfed. If you can fake it having that Scarf for just long enough, I agree that you can take out a couple of Pokes versus an opponent that expects the same thing I did.

Genesect's great movepool begs for it to not be locked into a move, so Expert Belt seems very viable to catch someone off guard.

This does take away from it's scouting ability as a lead though.

 

[Ojama]

Fuk SmashPass, this is the only thing i have to say

 

[GatoDelFuego]

Fuck baton pass in general, as every counter to it is beaten except haze, and who the fuck uses haze. Baton Pass team=free win most of the time.

 

[bubbly]

Amoonguss has Clear Smog at least. That gives defensive teams some kind of chance of not insta-losing.

 

[Charbris]

Hey there. I am new to Smogon but not to competitive battling, I have been on Serebii for awhile now and wanted to come here. Anyways on the subject of Genosect my good Friend Vatii uses a Burn Drive Variant on her No Preview Uber's team to great success, even thought its a sun team. Genosect seems to work with its drives in the same way that Arceus works with its plates, changing its signature attack, but unlike Arceus it keeps its great Steel/Bug typing that allows it to take on multiple threats with ease. So I can honestly see Genosect being moved up to Ubers eventually, or at least like Latios and Latias where it is illegal with soul dew, but instead with drives.

 

[Joel]

Fuk SmashPass, this is the only thing i have to say

Fuck baton pass in general, as every counter to it is beaten except haze, and who the fuck uses haze. Baton Pass team=free win most of the time.

Am I the only one that uses Whirlwind/Roar on Skarmory anymore? When I suspect a set up, I just switch, then Whirlwind/Roar.

So what if Espeon is switched in, since it is 2HKO'd by Brave Bird?.........

BP teams = :evan:

 

[Ricky Horror]

Hey there. I am new to Smogon but not to competitive battling, I have been on Serebii for awhile now and wanted to come here. Anyways on the subject of Genosect my good Friend Vatii uses a Burn Drive Variant on her No Preview Uber's team to great success, even thought its a sun team. Genosect seems to work with its drives in the same way that Arceus works with its plates, changing its signature attack, but unlike Arceus it keeps its great Steel/Bug typing that allows it to take on multiple threats with ease. So I can honestly see Genosect being moved up to Ubers eventually, or at least like Latios and Latias where it is illegal with soul dew, but instead with drives.

Unless I'm mistaken the drives aren't llegal in OU, only the regular form is allowed in game play at this time.

 

[Skore]

The drives are still inferior to just running the respective 95 BP attack.

Techno Blast has only 85 BP and 5 PP making it pretty damn useless in competitve play.

 

[tehy]

All of the drives, other than the water drive, do LESS damage than another move genesect can learn, and apparently have less PP as well, also requiring you to carry a different item, and since you change form with the drives, you can't even bluff. Water drive is the only remotely viable one, but still isn't great.

 

[Lavos]

The drives are still inferior to just running the respective 95 BP attack.

Techno Blast has only 85 BP and 5 PP making it pretty damn useless in competitve play.

Surprisingly, Genesect can make use of its signature move, Techno Blast, if you're using it on a Rain team. Since Flamethrower is useless, a set of U-Turn / Thunder / Ice Beam / Techno Blast with Genesect holding the Douse Drive is actually a legitimate set. A Base 85 Water-type attack with Rain boost can really clock Heatran, 2HKOing any version even at +0. At +1, Genesect's Techno Blast will actually OHKO standard Balloon Tran in Rain. There's a reason to use it! Oh and Genesect just appreciates the Water coverage in general, hits a lot of what some people might call its "checks".

Like tehy says, the other drives are completely worthless. Don't know what Game Freak was thinking on that one.

 

[Prinz]

I'm agree with Lavos, Techno Blast is a very good choice for genesect in rain teams. If you don't want use dugtrio...

 

[BurningMan]

Surprisingly, Genesect can make use of its signature move, Techno Blast, if you're using it on a Rain team. Since Flamethrower is useless, a set of U-Turn / Thunder / Ice Beam / Techno Blast with Genesect holding the Douse Drive is actually a legitimate set. A Base 85 Water-type attack with Rain boost can really clock Heatran, 2HKOing any version even at +0. At +1, Genesect's Techno Blast will actually OHKO standard Balloon Tran in Rain. There's a reason to use it! Oh and Genesect just appreciates the Water coverage in general, hits a lot of what some people might call its "checks"..

HP Water with LO or Expert Belt is superior, because they boost all moves and you actually see if Genesect is using a Douse Drive since it gets a small color change so it even rips you of any suprise value.

 

[JGSabino]

Wouldn't Hidden Power [Water] do an equally good / better job with Life Orb or even Expert Belt?

EDIT: Ninja'd.

 

[tehy]

It also changes the name. Technically, i guess douse drive with techno blast has one more base power than E-belt HP water, and it hits harder neutrally, plus you can use a different HP. But yeah, it's really not very good, especially since you usually use HP to hit heatran, which douse drive does just fine.

The real question is, why did GF even bother to give it ice beam and such? They made an interesting and awesome special move, then they were like, let's make it useless.

 

[Lavos]

I'm not saying that Douse Drive Genesect is anything I'd use on a regular basis, just that it's the only one of the four Drives that can put Techno Blast to work. I know that the color scheme of Genesect's sprite changes slightly with the Douse Drive, which is unfortunately, but luckily a lot of players aren't observant enough to catch that small change. And even if they are, it's still a threat that could prevent them from switching something in out of fear, which in turn would allow you to take advantage of that. Techno Blast threatens Heatran and Terrakion, two generally solid checks to Genesect, and while it's by no means Genesect's best option, I think it's worth consideration.

 

[Electrolyte]

It doesn't matter which is more powerful, because HP Water should not be used on Genesect in the first place. It's not that it's useless, but that Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt are better. Sure, a water move hits Fire and Rock types, but then you have to ditch coverage. Losing Ice Beam means no more Dragon types, which is one of Genesect's niches; losing Flamethrower means no more Steels, Bugs, and Ice; losing Tbolt means total disadvantage against bulky waters. Besides, even if you do consider using an HP, use HP Ground, which at least hits Heatran harder, while still hitting Rock types just as hard.

 

[tehy]

I'm not saying that Douse Drive Genesect is anything I'd use on a regular basis, just that it's the only one of the four Drives that can put Techno Blast to work. I know that the color scheme of Genesect's sprite changes slightly with the Douse Drive, which is unfortunately, but luckily a lot of players aren't observant enough to catch that small change. And even if they are, it's still a threat that could prevent them from switching something in out of fear, which in turn would allow you to take advantage of that. Techno Blast threatens Heatran and Terrakion, two generally solid checks to Genesect, and while it's by no means Genesect's best option, I think it's worth consideration.

It also changes it's name, i believe. So you'd have to avoid both of those things being noticed. I guess it's good for HP ground AND techno blast, but that seems like it eats too many moveslots on such a versatile pokemon.

 

[Lavos]

It doesn't matter which is more powerful, because HP Water should not be used on Genesect in the first place. It's not that it's useless, but that Ice Beam/Flamethrower/Thunderbolt are better. Sure, a water move hits Fire and Rock types, but then you have to ditch coverage. Losing Ice Beam means no more Dragon types, which is one of Genesect's niches; losing Flamethrower means no more Steels, Bugs, and Ice; losing Tbolt means total disadvantage against bulky waters. Besides, even if you do consider using an HP, use HP Ground, which at least hits Heatran harder, while still hitting Rock types just as hard.

Um, we're talking about Rain teams here. There is absolutely no justification for using Flamethrower on Genesect if you have a Politoed as another member of your squad. That leaves your fourth moveslot with two options, Bug Buzz and Techno Blast/HP Water. If you're going to use Hidden Power, and you're running a Rain team, please use HP Water > HP Ground. Consider the following scenarios: Genesect vs. Air Balloon Heatran and Genesect vs. Terrakion. In both cases, it's far better to be packing the former. Ground doesn't do anything to BalloonTran, Heatran's most used set, but also fails to even 2HKO Terrakion at +0. That's really sad. On the other hand, HP Water at +1 OHKOs Heatran AND Terrakion. It just makes plain sense to use HP Water over HP Ground if you're running a Rain team.

By the way, Genesect often does not require what you claim is 100% necessary 4-move coverage. More than half the time it's just using U-Turn anyways. It also depends on what kind of team you're running. If you run a Sun team, sure, you'll probably want all 3 moves. A Rain team? Flamethrower is super weak in Rain so not a good idea there. Hail teams? Never weak to bulky waters, drop Thunderbolt for Bug Buzz. Sand? Depends on your lineup, really.

Genesect has the potential for versatility. It's a waste of that potential if every time you use Genesect it's the same old 4 moves. Try something new; Techno Blast, HP Water, Bug Buzz, Explosion, whatever. Surprise value really helps when you're a Genesect, because as this thread has clearly proven, everybody always expects the same old set.

It also changes it's name, i believe. So you'd have to avoid both of those things being noticed. I guess it's good for HP ground AND techno blast, but that seems like it eats too many moveslots on such a versatile pokemon.

You're right on the changes its name thing, I think. That's a shame, names are much more obvious than a few pixels changing color. And yeah I wouldn't recommend HP Ground + Techno Blast because the former hits what the latter hits so it's essentially wasted space.

 

[SpecsX]

Actually, iirc, the Drive DOESN'T change Genesect's name. I remember playing a Genesect with a Drive, and I don't remember a name change. I could definitely see Douse Gene on Rain teams to beat Heatran.

 

[Lavos]

Actually, iirc, the Drive DOESN'T change Genesect's name. I remember playing a Genesect with a Drive, and I don't remember a name change. I could definitely see Douse Gene on Rain teams to beat Heatran.

Hey uh get this...

Just went on Showdown to test out Douse Drive Genesect, and you'll never believe this, but not only does it show up as just "Genesect", it also fails to change the sprite to reflect the Douse Drive, so you literally cannot tell if Genesect has it or not. That's awesome, and until Showdown gets that bug worked out I'm going to abuse this.

 

[TDL]

I'd rather run Bug Buzz over Techno Blast / HP Water / HP Ground when you can just U-Turn out to something that can threaten Heatran. Rain teams already make Heatran run for the hills anyways unless it's that troll Magma Storm trapper.

Not saying it's bad or anything though. You DO have to fill that last slot with something over the now deadweight Flamethrower haha. I myself would instead run Bug Buzz 80% of the time if I'm on a rain team for late-game cleaning / not hitting damn ferrothorns physically lol.