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CAP 16 CAP 5 - Part 7 - Secondary Ability Discussion

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by Birkal, Mar 11, 2013.

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  1. Birkal

    Birkal caw
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Oct 12, 2010
    And we're moving right along in the CAP process (at a more reasonable time of day, I might add)! We're back into ability discussion, and it's time to talk about the secondary ability of CAP 5. Korski, our Ability Leader, will be around shortly to provide his thoughts and kick off the discussion.

    Remember, we have quite a few new rules specifically designed for ability discussions; you can read about them here. The first is that custom abilities are now banned. We can fulfill any legal concept that is within the bounds of what GameFreak has given us in terms of abilities. Secondly, this is not the thread for flavor discussion. If you bring up any flavor, your post will be moderated and possibly infracted. CAP is a competitive Pokemon project, so leave your subjective ability talk at the door. That will come later.

    The following abilities are banned from this discussion:
    Air Lock
    Bad Dreams
    Color Change
    Sand Veil
    Shadow Tag
    Slow Start
    Snow Cloak
    Victory Star
    Wonder Guard
    Zen Mode

    Arena Trap
    Huge Power
    Magic Bounce
    Magic Guard
    Pure Power
    Sand Stream
    Serene Grace
    Snow Warning
    Speed Boost

    Big Pecks
    Friend Guard
    Honey Gather
    Run Away
    Be careful not to chat about any of these abilities. If you want to learn why they're banned from discussion, you can check out the Policy Review thread that created this list.

    CAP 5 so far:

    Typing: Grass / Dark
    Primary Ability: Harvest
    Stats: 115 HP / 100 Atk / 60 Def / 40 SpA / 130 SpD / 55 Spe
  2. Korski

    Korski Distilled, 80 proof
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Mar 29, 2009
    Hello, this is the Secondary Ability thread, and I am still Korski.
    I couldn't have said it any better myself.

    In this thread, I am not looking to discuss various awesome abilities that can open new avenues of competitiveness for our CAP (Intimidate, Regenerator, etc.). Nor do I really care to spend time entertaining arguments that stem from the belief that we've already "completed the concept" with Harvest (or any of those old CAP notions that have lead to questionable second ability choices in the past). We've got our hands pretty full with Harvest, which some would call a defining ability. Let's work with that.

    It goes without saying that this will be a much different thread than Primary Ability. All abilities are now guilty-until-proven-innocent; that is, you'll need to convince the community that the ability does not overpower or interfere with Harvest before you extoll the virtues of the ability itself. I would also recommend sticking to concept-oriented arguments, whether you are arguing for an ability or NSA/Ineffective Ability. I'm not so cold-hearted as to claim with authority that there isn't anything out there that can help us explore this type-balancing idea while steering clear of our primary direction. I just want to make clear what the most persuasive arguments are going to look like.

    There is a new banlist in the OP of this thread, so be sure to note the additions. I'm also personally adding the following abilities to the list: Chlorophyll, Cloud Nine, Flower Gift, Natural Cure, Intimidate, and Regenerator. Don't go there. Also, I am auto-slating both No Secondary Ability and Ineffective Ability Turns out we only need one of these for now:

    No Secondary Ability: Harvest will be the only available ability for CAP. No CAP can be used in play without Harvest as its ability.

    Ineffective Ability: a.k.a. "flavor ability." This ability will have only the faintest hint of competitiveness at the very most (Honey Gather, Run Away, etc.); Harvest will be the only ability that offers CAP any kind of real advantage in battle. If we select Ineffective Ability here, this stage will close and the remaining two abilities will be chosen at the end of the project.

    EDIT: Since Harvest has such a unique interaction with item choices, "Ineffective Ability" is functionally equivalent to "No Secondary Ability." That said, I will only be auto-slating Ineffective Ability for this poll. We can decide during the flavor steps at the end of the project if we want this to be a functionless ability or instead nothing at all.

    So that's all I really have to say for now. Please be sure to discuss the pros and cons of NSA/IA too, even though they're guaranteed a spot on the slate.

    This thread will be open for 72 hours.


    Needs Discussion:

    Water Veil

    Done Discussing:

    Early Bird
    Own Tempo
    Poison Heal
    Sap Sipper
    Shield Dust
    Thick Fat
    Vital Spirit
    Wonder Skin

    Short List (Keep Discussing):

    Ineffective Ability
    Leaf Guard
    Sticky Hold
  3. Base Speed

    Base Speed What a load of BS!

    Sep 16, 2012
    Ok, so I want to get the ball rolling with my ideas for abilities.

    I believe that CAP5 needs some sort of secondary ability - great though Harvest is, it requires a berry to work and any set that chooses to run another item can make zero use out of it. Another ability that gives some utility for non berry sets is needed.

    On the other hand, we want to make sure Harvest is the defining and thus the best ability for CAP, in keeping with our latest policies on abilities, and so whatever we're picking can't be amazing.

    With that in mind, I'd like to put forward a group of abilities, all of which give CAP5 some degree of protection from status, but no real gain from them (so not Guts etc.) The reasoning for this is simple - we want CAP5 to be a pivot for sun teams and pivots hate status. These abilities are far from defining and given that Harvest can give unlimited lum berries are outclassed in most situations but are better than nothing if you want to use choice items etc.

    Therefore, I would like to suggest giving CAP5 one of Limber, Own Tempo, Immunity, Water Veil, Magma Armour or Synchronize.

    You might have already noticed that I've left Vital Spirit and Insomnia off that list. Simply, sleep is by far the most threatening of the statuses and thus immunity to it could potentially be defining. It's best to make sure Harvest remains the most reliable way of warding off sleep and these abilities would screw with that goal.

    Synchronize is my favourite as it's largely the worst - not even giving immunity but just biting back when status does happen and thus discouraging people from ruining CAP5's fun.

    Of the rest, it's just a question of what status immunity will help the concept most. Protection from burns to help switching into Scalds? Protection from freezing to ease the pain of an ice beam? Resistance to paralysis to keep momentum on your side? Or keeping poison damage at bay to increase CAP5's longevity on the battlefield? I'd like get your opinions on that...

    Despite all that, I think No Secondary Ability or Ineffective Secondary Ability are both equally valid options and keep our focus right where it's meant to be. So consider me supporting them too.
  4. Nomark


    Aug 22, 2012
    For Base Speed's reasons, I think Leaf Guard would be a good secondary ability. It promotes sun while being mostly inferior to Harvest.
  5. BrianFantana


    Jan 30, 2013
    Unless I'm ninja'd, I'd like to be the first to introduce the idea of Leaf Guard.

    An obvious point in favour of Leaf Guard is that it clearly doesn't overshadow Harvest; Lum sets with Harvest achieve a status immunity of sorts that is less reliant on sunlight, healing status that is afflicted in other weathers and permitting the LumRest strategy to boot. It also has the advantage of carrying exactly zero risk of steering CAP5 away from the concept in that it ties it to sun teams even more than Harvest does.

    So why have it at all? What options does it open up to CAP5? Well, with Leaf Guard, CAP5 can run items other than berries while retaining some minor utility in its ability - so long as it's in the sun. So that means Leftovers recovery as well as strategies that later movepool decisions might facilitate, like Dark Gem Pursuit or TrickScarf. The utility that the ability provides is status immunity in the sun, meaning that as long as CAP5's team is winning the weather war, it fears no Scald (pace Politoed), Spore, TWave or Toxic - an excellent quality for a pivot to have.

    Of course, versatility isn't necessarily a good thing when we have a concept to fulfill; however, as I have mentioned, this versatility only exists on Sun teams; outside of the sun, CAP5 is just as apt to run these other items anyway.

    In lieu of Leaf Guard and banned abilities such as Flower Gift and Chlorophyll, I would be in favour of No Secondary Ability; one of the major things Harvest does for CAP5's concept is tie its usage to Sun teams to some degree, and I can see little reason to jeopardize that quality.

    Edit - ninja'd. Knew it!

    Second Edit -

    To address Birkal's post below - I can certainly see CAP5 having use for Lefties. Should it be a spinner it will inevitably be switching in on hazards once or twice, and at its low speed tier it won't always find time to pull off a Synthesis or Rest; between those factors it would probably appreciate the gradual recovery. I don't think saying 'Leftovers will only encourage use on non-Sun teams' means much here; nothing stops it from doing so with Harvest/Ineffective Secondary if it wants to.

    I think that the best I can say of Leaf Guard is this. Harvest offers massive safeguards against Status (Lum) or damage (Sitrus), but not at the same time. With Leaf Guard, CAP5 has a sun-dependent status shield and, with Leftovers, a bit of recovery each turn. It's essentially a compromise, giving benefits similar to Harvest that are less effective but not mutually exclusive. In this way it's totally congruent with the concept, and extends upon the intent behind Harvest rather than diverging from it.
  6. Bughouse

    Bughouse Like ships in the night, you're passing me by
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    May 28, 2010
    I'd like to gauge support for two abilities good for our typing's flavor: Defiant and Sap Sipper.

    Defiant helps shift CAP5's targets a bit. No longer can Landorus-T, Gyarados, or Salamence (if people even use intimidate mence...) just switch in willy nilly. A +1 Power Whip/Crunch/etc will hurt. At the same time, obviously it means no Harvest. Which makes Defiant undeniably bad comparatively.

    On the other hand is an ability like Sap Sipper that has even less utility. We can't touch Ferrothorn or Breloom anyway. And Venusaur should beat us again regardless.

    Both abilities focus on getting a +1 attack. One in more common circumstances than the other. Which, if either is more on track in terms of ability strength?

    Alternatively, ineffective ability is totally fine by me too.
  7. psykokitty


    Apr 4, 2012
    During the typing discussion for CAP5, a lot of people voiced concerns about giving it a 4x weakness. I think the Secondary Ability is a perfect time to address those concerns, and as such, I'd like to propose Rattled as the Secondary Ability for CAP5. There's no way this will outclass Harvest, because if you really wanted to get a speed boost after taking a U-Turn you could just resort to Salac abuse. If you were overly concerned with the 4x Bug weakness, you could also just run Tanga abuse. Therefore, Rattled has pretty much no way of outclassing Harvest outright.

    However, Rattled still carries enough competitive merit to be viable on CAP5 in that it opens the door for other kinds of items to be used. We've identified one of the main weaknesses of Sun teams as predictability; with Rattled, a CAP5 Choiced set could come in on a well-predicted U-Turn and do some extra damage with the speed boost, allowing it to fulfill an unanticipated sweeper role.
  8. Legend13


    Oct 6, 2012
    Could we give CAP5 Unnerve? There might be situations where two CAP5's are switched in to eachother, and the one with Unnerve will have a distinct advantage.
    I'd also like to second Leaf Guard as well, since it provides protection against status (like LumHarvest), but also frees up space for an item.
    Immunity is also an option, since stall is destroyed by Toxic.
    Of course, if we can't find a non-overshadowing second ability, No Secondary Ability would be fine, since Harvest already binds CAP5 to its purpose of promoting Sun.
  9. Nyktos

    Nyktos Custom Loser Title

    Aug 27, 2008
    I am strongly in favour of Ineffective Ability. (Or no ability I suppose, but since Harvest has no downside the two are interchangeable and most Pokémon have multiple abilities these days.)

    The reason I don't want to give this CAP a "competitive" secondary ability is that, well, I'm afraid people will want to use it. Harvest is such an insanely good ability that it's almost certain to be a better competitive option than anything that would be appropriate for a secondary. Choosing to go with a competitive secondary that will never actually see use is just "ineffective ability" in disguise, so if we do choose something else we must be willing to commit to making that something else have some actual value over Harvest; that is to say, we will have to build movepools with the assumption that it will sometimes be running a non-berry set.

    I simply can't see good things at the end of that road. Given the effectiveness of Sitrus and Lum on defensive sets with Harvest, a non-berry set likely means an offensive set. I don't think there's necessarily a problem if an offensive set exists, but I don't think we need to give it an ability and potentially movepool that specifically encourage that. And besides, LumRest already offers plenty to an offensive set, not to mention niche options like pinch berries. I worry that trying to encourage the use of Limber or whatever is going to end up like Weak Armor on Aurumoth: we'll give it options designed to help its weaker ability, and they'll just end up making sets using the stronger ability even better.

    I was against Harvest in the first place because I felt it offered too many distractions. Well, we made our choice there and we have to live with it and I do think Harvest offers many positives too. But with an ability as complex as Harvest on a Pokémon that is essentially designed to fill a rather specific role, the last thing we want is to add even more distractions. Harvest is already a million abilities rolled together: there's no need to make it a million and one.

    All that said, if we absolutely must choose a competitive secondary, Leaf Guard is the best suggestion I've heard. It's a sun ability, it plays in similar ground to what is likely to be the best use of Harvest, and while it has advantages it's altogether fairly niche. This is a much, much worse choice than an ineffective ability in my view, but it's better than something that pulls in a substantially different direction from Harvest like, say, Rattled does.
  10. Todd


    Apr 23, 2012
    I don't think Rattled is that great an idea. After CAP 5 takes a U-turn, it's probably not going to be in any shape to do anything, if it's even alive at all. It only resists two priority attacks, and is weak to mach punch, vacuum wave, and ice shard.
    And even if it got the rattled boost from a dark or ghost move, why would we want it to be a sweeper? It's got terrible STAB, maybe passable attack, and even with a rattled boost and maximum speed investment, about 345 speed, which is outsped by just about every scarfer and a lot of non scarfers. There's a reason you don't see scarf Machamp. Plus, as Birkal (who made the stats) has said, no more bulky sweepers.

    I also don't think leaf guard is that great. One of CAP 5's greatest chances to switch in is on Politoed, who often run scald and who neuters leafguards' effects, and the burn will completely neuter any offensive pressure CAP keeps on the latis and politoed. Scald burns are probably the greatest threat to CAP 5, and politoed will have the best chance at it, due to the switch ins. If CAP 5 is given rapid spin, poison immunity would greatly help its spinning capabilities, since it can switch in to t-spikes. Both of these can be solved easily by lum-harvest, but as secondary, weaker abilities, I would also like to second Immunity and Water Veil.
  11. Stratos

    Stratos Banned deucer.

    Aug 26, 2010
    Let me say this right now: The idea of making our concept go in multiple directions is not one I want to see in this thread. It's a trap we fell into for the past couple CAPs, where you saw people arguing for abilities for the options they provided, even—in the best not-a-word since warren g harding—stressing "triality" for aurumoth. Well, if Korski's OP didn't make it clear, that's not what we're doing here. We're not trying to make the concept swing off in a diff direction after we already tailored our stats and typing and etc to beating Lati@s and Politoed. We've picked a direction, now we stick with it. If a proposed secondary ability doesn't provide specific examples for how we become better at doing what we already planned to (and avoid the risk of turning on Sun), then I won't even consider it, except to knock it down. This goes for Rattled (where was that in our Concept? besides, every u-turn imaginable is a KO already, Jellicent doesn't run Ghost moves, Gengar isn't outsped at +1. It's basically IA with potential for some nasty unforseen consequence), Immunity, and basically everything in BaseSpeed's post, which basically are just generic good abilities, that don't take a different flavor on doing what Harvest already does.

    That said, I support Ineffective Ability, because we don't really need a second one, as Nyktos above outlined.

    EDIT: remember, no matter how hard we try otherwise, CAP5 will probably be used on other types of teams, because it can probably get Spin. So i don't want to make it easier to use on other teams if i don't have to
  12. GatoDelFuego

    GatoDelFuego I'm the Yellow Fellow
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Forum Moderatoris a Live Chat Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    GP Co-Leader

    May 29, 2011
    I'd like to support Synchronize, Leaf Guard, and hopefully be the first to suggest Natural Cure. Each of these abilities fulfills a similar goal, albeit in slightly different ways. I think that the secondary ability of CAP 5 should be focusing on status, as the defenses and harvest allow it to take offensive hits from dragons and waters, while immunity to status grants it a weapon against bulkier waters.

    Leaf Guard, to start off, is my least favorite. It is very reliant on sun, like harvest, and while harvest has so much potential I see Leaf Guard not really having any use on a sun team. Not to say that the secondary ability should not be outclassed, but CAP 5 is meant to reduce waters and dragons in all forms, not just be a gift to sun teams. Anybody can just use harvest+lum to fulfill this, which gives this ability zero reason to exist.

    Natural Cure offers the ability to cure CAP 5 of any status, but at the catch of keeping that status on it at all times. However, CAP 5 will be switching in and out a lot, and natural cure is a nice ability for pivots to have. Again, HarvestLum achieves the same success, but this ability allows CAP5 to be used on any team but with an inferior immunity to status, although with the minor boost of leftovers recovery.

    Synchronize is my favorite of the status-immunity abilities, as it comes with possibly the biggest payback and the greatest disadvantage. Shifting a burn onto a politoed or jellicent is huge, and it's one of the reasons scald is such a great attack; burn's potential to deal huge damage over time is not always seen until generation 5. Even better, CAP 5 could put a toxic on an opposing bulky water such as jellicent or paralyze something like jirachi. However, this comes with not granting any immunity to status at all, which could potentially be very bad for CAP5 walling anything.

    Again, I feel all of these abilities are outclassed by Harvest+Lum, except for possibly synchronize, and offer not much instead outside of leftovers recovery. However, CAP 5 should also be able to fit onto other teams; granted it will not be at its strongest level outside of sun, but it can accomplish its goal of reducing water- and dragon-types in the metagame regardless of sun and weather if these options are chosen.
  13. Todd


    Apr 23, 2012
    Pwnemon, at the risk of drawing out your godly wrath, I disagree. That's the point of Immunity and Water Veil; that they're lesser harvests, and won't unseat it. They give some uitility that Harvest would have, but leave it open to other things. And I don't really see how water veil and immunity would cause it to be used over things like Tentacruel and Forretress on rain and sand; neither of them give a rats ass about poison and burn already, and are far better suited for their respective weathers.

    Although yeah, I'd rather have no competitive ability or no secondary ability over leaf guard and rattled.
  14. Sonic The Hedgedawg

    Sonic The Hedgedawg

    May 13, 2010
    I'm still for thick fat as an ability.

    It helps the CAP counter the common ice coverage moves that risk actually punishing it for attempting to just do its job as a pivot. At the same time, however, the ability is infinitely less powerful and versatile than Harvest, making it far less likely to be used except when you know you don't need to fear certain threats that harvest can ameliorate, like Draco Meteor from latios.

    It certainly isn't a useless ability, but it's overshadowed by Harvest and I think that those of us wanting it as a primary ability earlier were worried that Harvest may have been TOO powerful and versatile which should speak to the less impactful nature of Thick Fat as an ability.

    There are loads of supporting arguments for thick fat in the primary ability poll and I would argue that most are equally valid now as they were then.

    I would be disappointed to see this CAP suddenly fall to uselessness if strong ice attacks bring down its primary set. Thick Fat could be a nice safeguard against that.
  15. RavensNation


    Aug 30, 2012
    Anyone for Rattled? The only way to activate the ability is to be hit by Ghost- and Dark-type attacks, both relatively uncommon attacking types. The other one is Bug-type attacks, which CAP 5 can't really take very well. Having Rattled lets you use other items, but requires a considerable investment in speed to do much.
  16. jas61292

    jas61292 used substitute
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Sep 30, 2010
    So, before we get too far, I'd like to tell people what I think we should be looking for in this thread. We have our primary ability, and we don't want to overshadow it is any way. However, that does not mean we cannot have an ability with a useful effect. It just has to be something that people would not usually want over harvest. I personally think there are two main ways to accoplish this:

    First, we could choose an ability that takes something a Harvest set does, and do something very similar, but more limited. In this way, we can take one aspect of a Harvest set, and give up a number of its benifits in exchange for an item slot. I think the best example of this are the status immunity abilities. Water Veil in particular could be a good fit, as it helps target the Pokemon we want to beat. In general, a Harvest set with Lum Berry will do just as much as Water Veil, while also providing effective immunity to Sleep, Poison, Freeze and Paralysis. However, in exchange for giving up 4/5 status immunities, CAP5 would get the ability to run a non berry item. The ability itself has the same focus, but actually allows non berry sets to work decently which I personally think could be important as otherwise an increse in the use of things like Trick or Knock Off can easily hamper our effect on the metagame. While it is true that you can run other items with Harvest, I think a small incentive for those that do so will make CAP5 less easy to manipulate by the opponent. Another possible example of an ability like this would be Leaf Guard. Leaf Guard, like Lum Harvest, also provides status immunity, but not status healing, and only in Sun. It is very limited, but still covers the same ground as harvest, once more providing a small benefit for anyone who doesn't wish to run Harvest.

    The other possible road I see us going down is using an ability that has only the most minor of effects, but this effect is useful against the Pokemon we want to threaten. Ideally an ability like this would be useless most of the time, but has at least some upside so that, once again, a non berry set gets at least something out of the ability slot. I think the best example I have heard of any ability like this is Infiltrator. By and large, Infiltrator serves no purpose, as Dual Screens are not that common. However, looking at the OU Pokemon who do employ this strategy, almost every single one is on the list of Pokemon we want to beat. I think this is especially useful for dealing with Latias. Harvest and the stats we chose can help a lot, but a Latias that chooses to run Reflect can neuter our attempts to take it out. While I don't think it would be the superior choice most of the time, this ability does provide a minor benefit that clearly targets only who we want to target.

    Finally, I would just like to say a brief word on No Secondary Ability and Ineffective Ability. Functionally, these are equivilant. Harvest has zero downsides, so Inneffective Ability would be equivilant to using Harvest without a berry. Therefore:

    Do not discuss Ineffective Ability vs No Secondary Ability. Whether or not both will indeed be slated is something the moderators and myself will probably talk with Korski about, but regardless of any potential decision I want to just inform everybody of this. The two options are functionally equivilant, and as such, any differences are purely flavor. This is a competitive stage, so flavor arguments are not allowed, and as such, any argument you have for one must apply equally to the other.

    EDIT: The above was discussed, and No Secondary Ability will not be an option itself, instead being included under Ineffective Ability. See Korski's edited post above for more detail.
  17. Birkal

    Birkal caw
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Super Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a CAP Contributoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Oct 12, 2010
    I know where you stand on this, Todd, but I want to bring up a point. Anyone out there suggesting an ability absolutely needs to define what "other things" are. I'm thoroughly convinced that all CAP 5 needs is berries. Any other item we give it has the potential to have some pretty negative side effects. Life Orb or a Choiced item indicates a bulky attacker, and that's specifically not what we're going for with our stat spread. Leftovers is really the only viable defensive option. If you're in the sun, I don't think you care at all about Leftovers, because you're not taking residual damage, and you can LumRest or Synthesis to recover. Leftovers will only encourage use on non-Sun teams. I'd honestly be tempted to run Limber + Lefties CAP 5 on a sand team, especially with its special bulk. So when people argue that they want CAP 5 to explore different items, I hope they explain which items exactly they mean.

    I'm going to push hard for Ineffective Ability; I could not agree with Nyktos more. Any other ability is going to detract from the concept of putting CAP 5 on a sun team. Rattled? Unnerve? How do those deal with our threat list? I don't see the connection. Water Veil is obviously out of paranoia for Scald, but I don't see why you wouldn't run Lum in that situation anyways. Even if you didn't, Ferrothorn is susceptible to Scald, and you don't see its usage going down. Furthermore, if you make the ultimate Politoed counter with CAP 5, you can bet your bottom dollar it's going to get used on any team, regardless of Sun (besides, we counter Politoed enough as it is). The only ability I could get behind is Leaf Guard, because that ability a) forces CAP 5 even more into the sun and b) is largely outclassed by Harvest. I just see other abilities as distractions from our concepts; they are superfluous.

    EDIT: In reading jas' post and talking with him on IRC, I could see a really strong point for Infiltrator too. I still think I'd prefer No Competitive Ability, but it's a legitimate option, in my eyes.
  18. DHR-107

    DHR-107 Robot from the Future
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    Orange Islands

    Dec 26, 2008
    I'm definitely in favour with the Infiltrator option. Screens ARE relatively rare, but it keeps us ahead of the game when it comes to hyper offence or Screen Latias/Latios. It allows us to hit them regardless if they decide to set up Reflect (expecting Harvest). Which in real world terms would be a good bluff to make.

    Obviously, it is pretty much 100% outclassed by Harvest unless you want to run it on other teams as Birkal pointed out above. I think that the various perks of Harvest are generally better than the very niche boosts that Infiltrator gives.

    EDIT: Rattled is a weird choice unless we want to counter ourselves, which is pointless. Thick Fat removes our Fire AND Ice Weakness, which I definitely don't think is OK.
  19. erisia

    erisia nyoen wnt an popsicel
    is a Smogon Media Contributoris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 29, 2011
    Okay, I think there's some important things that we need to bear in mind when deciding on this ability.

    • It can't overshadow Harvest on Sun teams
    • It shouldn't warrant consist use over Harvest in other weather conditions.
    The first point is obvious, and the latter is necessary to ensure that CAP5 is used on (and thus benefits) Sun teams more than anywhere else.

    Thus, I'm completely opposed to abilities such as Limber and Immunity, as those let CAP5 get away with status immunities while running something other than a Lum Berry, letting CAP use an ordinary item like Leftovers or Choice Band and seeing additional use in Rain, Sand, and weatherless, detracting from the Sun niche. Some abilities I do like, given this reasoning, are Leaf Guard, as it doesn't warrant use on non-Sun teams while having limited niche uses in that specified weather that don't overshadow Harvest, and Infiltrator, as it lets CAP5 get past stuff like DS Latios, Reflect Latias etc without being more useful than Harvest to other weathers which care less about these two. Other than these two abilities, I'm vouching for Ineffective or No Ability. I initially liked Water Veil, but Sand teams would love something that can switch into Scalds so damn easily, so there's a chance this could hurt CAP5's impact on promoting Sun teams more than it helps, and why bother introducing this risk?
  20. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

    Feb 19, 2013
    Given the bulk we decided on, I support an additional defensive ability over offensive ones, or no second ability at all. We still must be wary of giving rain teams an option to steal our dedicated sun supporter.

    Here's my arguments for and against some of these defensive abilities:

    The ones I support:

    Leaf Guard: Makes the most sense for a second sun ability, but is still generally inferior to Harvest+Rest+Lum Berry. Leaf Guard still works as an option if you wanted to use Life Orb, Choice Band, or Wish passing + Leftovers, which as previously discussed, would be a boon to keeping Ninetales and Sash Dugtrio alive and well. Because of typing, it'd still be inferior to Vaporeon as a Wish passer on rain/sand teams. This could work as an option.

    : Allows it to wall the oh so common opposing Heatran that like to hijack sun and stop sweeps, as well as spin blocking Chandelure and hypothetical future Flash Fire Eruption Scarf Typhlosion, while still being weak to other sun sweepers, like Growth Venusaur, Volcorona, Victini, Darmanitan, Moxie Salamence and Infernape.

    Now the ones I am against:

    Thick Fat: A fire/ice neutrality would make this guy able to be used AGAINST sun teams. We need to be able to take this guy down with sun boosted fire moves otherwise rain teams will assuredly abduct him. DON'T DO IT.

    Overcoat: Meh. Immunity to sand and hail and permits weather hijacking. DON'T DO IT.

    Poison Heal: Makes immune to status and gives superior passive healing, but again, risks rain and sand theft. DON'T DO IT.

    Vital Spirit/Insomnia/Sap Sipper:
    Honestly, this guy doesn't need to be a sleep absorber outside of Harvest because switching into the most common sleeper, Breloom would be pointless, as it would still lose to fighting attacks. Also a grass immunity gives rain teams the option tosteal our pokemon. DON'T DO IT.

    : Ignores boosts. I'm against this, as it would now wall Growth+HP Fire/Sludge Bomb Venusaur. DON'T DO IT.
  21. inanimate blob

    inanimate blob

    May 31, 2011
    Well, fine then, I'll just say the ones I'd like to contribute again.

    Unnerve: As stated previously by Legend13, Unnerve would be a very interesting ability for CAP5 to have. It would be an interesting thing to watch - would we see CAP5 rise even more when it's popular, making an effective perpetual motion machine? Of would Unnerve CAP5 be overshadowed by others with Unnerve, such as Galvantula? Unnerve woul actually assist CAP5 greatly in usage, due to the fact that if you neede a fun CAP5 counter, you could actually use CAP5 if it's not already on your team. All in all, having Unnerve on a Pokémon that could potentially use it would be a very interesting phenomenon to study with CAP5.

    Trace: This is the ability I'd like to discuss as a whole - it's way too situational to overshadow Harvest, yet could potentially make CAP5 very hard to handle as a threat.

    "Should I send in my Heatran to threaten a possible switch to this thing?" Well, what if it has Trace? Suddenly, a powerful Lava Plume could become useless, and Heatran would need to switch. Suddenly, safe switches like that become hard to predict until you learn CAP5's ability. Additionally, against Pokémon such as Gliscor, you suddenly have a very potential threat - no one wants to give a Pokémon access to Poison Heal. Intimidate users and Magic Bounce users would also be threatened, as the Intimidaters would receive an Attack drop and the Magic Bounce users could no longer get a free T-wave or something.

    It would also allow CAP5 to function without Sun, allowing you to have a potential backup in case you lose the weather war, while tricking your opponent into waging it in the first place.

    Certain sets with Harvest would also be better, such as LumRest and Sitrus or Pinch, allowing Trace to still ride "under the radar," or overshadowed. It, as stated before, would also aid Harvest in that the opponent could easily be caught off guard with a misprediction.

    All in all, Trace and Unnerve are definitely options to pursue when considering CAP5's potential second ability, but I still voice my support for Trace over other options.
  22. Magistrum

    Magistrum Ufufu~♪
    is an Artist

    Jan 10, 2013
    What about Frisk? Harvest clearly overshadows it because the information it gives may not be relevant(like focus sash on mamoswine), but could sometimes be useful to determine some pokemon's sets and thus its checks and counters. Is it a Banded or SD Scizor? Is it CMrachi or Scarf[trick]rachi? You can react accordingly. Overall I think it helps our CAP fulfill its role as a defensive pivot in a different way; even though Harvest is obviously the better option, Frisk can still be a good ability to aid the team.

    I also support Leaf Guard and Infiltrator since the former still gives an immunity most of the time to offensive status like burn and poison, while the latter gives us an option to counter a set of our intended target.
  23. DetroitLolcat

    DetroitLolcat Maize and Blue Badge Set 2014-2017
    is a CAP Contributoris a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Apr 11, 2010
    Okay, so I think the purpose of the Secondary Ability should be to improve this Pokemon as a whole, add in an element of surprise if necessary, and essentially give this Pokemon more methods with which to achieve the concept. However, if the Primary Ability is so critical to the concept that we do not need to give CAP5 another way to do so, then No Secondary Ability or Ineffective Secondary Ability becomes the superior option.

    For starters, let's look at some of the abilities thrown around. Natural Cure seems good, but the only reason you would use Natural Cure over Harvest is if you're not running Rest because LumRest didn't make the movepool (which can't be proven) or you're not getting thr 100% Harvest rate from the Sun. Natural Cure would turn this Pokemon into a bulky, Physical Starmie, which would be great for Rain teams that need some help taking Special attacks. Natural Cure would have made a decent Primary Ability, but there's no point in tacking on an ability that would only see use on non-Sun teams when we've already tethered this Pokemon to Sun teams with Harvest and the Concept Assessment.

    Infiltrator is barely an effective ability at all, so I don't see the point in putting it on this Pokemon. Infiltrator isn't going to see any use on Sun teams when we have status immunity or Sitrus Berry's delicious healing on our side, so the only thing Infiltrator will do is give this Pokemon a minor boost primarily on teams this Pokemon is not designed to be on. Even then, Harvest is still probably the better ability choice on a Rain or Sand team. I'm opposed to extremely marginal abilities like Infiltrator, because Infiltrator's going to see insignificant usage when we have Harvest on the other side.

    Leaf Guard, on the other hand, makes a lot more sense. Sure, it's going to see pretty low usage compared to Harvest, but at least Leaf Guard lets this Pokemon use Choice Items, Life Orb, or some other non-Berry item while keeping us on Sun teams. No Rain, Sand, Hail, or nonweather team is going to use Leaf Guard over Harvest because of Leaf Guard, so we're fine on that front. Meanwhile, Leaf Guard adds to the options that Sun teams have when using CAP5, which is what we've been trying to do since we decided on a Sun Pokemon back in the Concept Assessment. Leaf Guard would at worst do nothing and at best turn this Pokemon into Sun's Swiss Army knife, so I'm throwing my support behind Leaf Guard.

    Next to Leaf Guard, the next best option is No Secondary Ability/Ineffective Secondary Ability. Harvest already does what we want it to do, and we shouldn't take on an ability that runs against the way in which we hope to achieve our concept in order to make this Pokemon better in a general sense. To those suggesting abilities that "make the Pokemon better", you need to think why this ability achieves the concept. We could have "made this Pokemon better" by giving it 130/100/140 bulk, 95 Speed, and a Dragon/Fighting type, but we didn't. We chose a specific Primary Ability, specific stats, and a specific Primary Ability in order to boost the popularity of Fire Pokemon and the Sun playstyle while doing the opposite to Water and Rain. Last CAP, the Secondary Ability was the last nail in the coffin of a concept off the rails. Though we won't have a No Guard disaster like Aurumoth did, we should realize that a competitive Secondary Ability just for the sake of having one is pointless at best and dangerous at worst.
  24. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle formerly aqueous tortoise

    Feb 26, 2013
    I have actually thought about this and considered suggesting it, but then realized it would be way too OP and doesn't encourage use on sun teams.
    It practically does what Harvest does with Sitrus & Lum combined, just slightly twisted. Sure the status protection would be amazing and if someone statuses you, you don't heal it, but its just like leaf guard, but works outside of sun and to avoid, it instead removing sun, the opponent would have to status it the first its out. That screams OP. Sure the healing isn't as great as sitrus, but its only half as much and it heals every turn no matter how much HP you have left unlike sitrus which only heals when you are 50% or below. That, too screams OP. The biggest problem I would have with it though, is that it doesn't encourage use on sun teams, it would do nice on my rain team if you ask me.

    This is why I am in support of Leaf Guard. Leaf guard will do exactly as poison heal, but be less effective as to ensure CAP5 is not OP. You give it leftovers, and it heals half as much as poison heal would each turn, which is not OP. With the ability itself, leaf guard prevents status like having a status already-*cough* poison *cough*-but it does not work all the time as it requires sun to be out, which is not OP in any way. In fact, one of the greatest things about this ability is that if someone were to pick it over harvest, It still encourages use on sun teams. So long story short, it is poison heal, but without the overpoweredness.
  25. cjrocker


    Mar 13, 2012
    I too think Leaf Guard is an excellent secondary ability in that it promotes sun and provides a minor niche over Harvest while not overshadowing it. I also think Frisk and Infiltrator are interesting abilities worth considering. They can benefit CAP5 but not in any major or sensitive way. If we want something that is super ineffective, though, then I would suggest Oblivious or Own Tempo. Neither attraction nor confusion are very common so having either of these abilities would accomplish very little but they still have a niche.
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