1. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.
  2. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!

CAP 16 CAP 5 - Sprite Submissions

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by capefeather, Mar 24, 2013.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. blitzlefan

    blitzlefan I remember it all too well...
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Oct 21, 2012
    Messages:
    1,303
    Well, umm, I think where the body curls, the lines could be more distinct, as looks a little bit jumbled up. The thorns I think can be little bit longer / pointier, and the apple looks kind of two-dimensional. I think the teeth could be a little bit more defined (like the outlines) because it kind of looks like empty space (it could just be the white background of the page though). I really like the overall design and the face looks very intimidating/kind of seductive. :)
  2. Quanyails

    Quanyails
    is an Artistis a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    591
    Okay, back from about two days, and I had made a few edits to my sprites. I had quite a few more from adjusting everything on and about the head, and it ended up not working. I had to make the eyes adjust accordingly if I enlarged the head, taking into account perspective which apparently makes the sprite currently look squished, and that looked odd no matter how many colors I tweened. :/ I'm sure if it's at a more sideways angle, there would be less of those comments, but I think it still looks fine for the angle I chose. :) I am keeping the gender differences, since we haven't had them in a few CAPs, it's Dracoyoshi8's original intention, and it does make for good flavor from what the apples are based off of (Adam's and Eris's.)

    [​IMG]

    I'm not sure what's causing this, but one of my art programs makes more colors--even if they look identical or nearly so--than what I started out with. It makes the entire image have double the amount of colors it's supposed to have. I'll have to make sure the colors are right when I do a final submission.

    Changelog, why not?


    • Altered the shading on the fang to make it look like less of a snaggletooth.
    • Changed the shading on the lower part of the body on the front sprite.
    • Made the bottom-front front sprite part smoother.
    • Changed the contour and added the shadow on the front band of the back sprite.
    • Made the curve of the back part of the back sprite better so it less resembles a sawtooth.
    • Created sprite parts.
    • Updated the localization files.

    Comments:
    Show Hide

    • Arkeis: Yaaay, better size. :) The head still seems a little off, but less so than previously. No big complaints; I like the pose and style, so carry on!
    • Sonic The Hedgedawg: That is because brown is supposed to work for both of them as well as the brown of the body. If I modify that brown, the rest of it will be modified as well.
    • Scorpio: The curve of the second yellow band--all the way to the right--is quite flat compared to the ones you have for the first and third ones. That could be rounded as well to fit it with the rest. I also notice that it appears the front and back portions of the snake are of the same width. Perspective-wise, the back portion should be slightly smaller; or, if you prefer, the front portion be enlarged a bit. If possible, make the eyes wider, as they are narrow and unsharp.
    • Caelestis: Hmm, I still don't like the location of the neck and tail, since they cross each other at what should look like the same location. I could almost see the tail behind the head. o3o Could you remove that left pixel on the eye? I think it's the one that makes the entire eye look feminine. Another small nitpick I'll mention is the highlight on the apple being toward the bottom instead of being closer to the light source, which should be higher up. Other than that, great!
    • Cartoons!: Aah, a sprite from you here! :D You have a fun style. Thank you for the comment, and I shall get to commenting on yours. I have similarly agreed that the sprite would look best turned around, facing left--even if there are counter-examples in the form of Krokorok and Machoke. Do you have plans for animating it (after this thread, of course)? I fear the sprite is too dynamic already, but if you have something planned, I will rest the question. Some of the little details, other artists have already mentioned, but one I haven't seen is the orientation of those bands on the left. Some of them are at angles and some of them are mostly flat. I would think that none of those bands are parallel to each other, especially on a curve of a curve. Another iota that would confuse fewer people (me included when I first saw it) is the tip of the tail.The leaf beside the tail could appear to be less of its bend and more an actual leaf. The current flow of the tail makes it easy to mistake as the tip of the tail with the apple dangling off of some other stem.
    • Wyverii: The backsprite, overall, looks dark, but I believe that is just because the bottom of the snake is in shadow on the back sprite while most of the bottom is in light on the front sprite. That small odd area of shading under the jaw still exists. And is it just me, or do othe dots on the far left band look larger than those in the middle of the sprite? You have a good sprite yet again, with lovely shiny colors. :)
    • noobiess: How very smug. :) A bit exaggeratedly so, I fear. Your style fits solidly with other pokemon sprites. :) Two small critiques: The face's grin, of course, could be less so. It currently stretches to the leaf-ear! I do not think that was Dracoyoshi8's intention. Additionally, like other people, your apple is symmetrical and looks more like an icon than a natural part of the pokemon. It's tempting to just make the apple a symmetrical shape, but such symmetry is practically nonexistent in pokemon sprites.
    • DougJustDoug: Hmm, Mos covered the criticisms about the head better than I could. As for the body; the shape is good, as is the apple in all of it shininess. The spikes, though, confuse me. Are you taking artistic license in skipping their number and symmetry? The first band has two distinct spikes and emptiness where a third would exist. I can see composition playing a part in not having that there. The spikes could shift right and flatten against the snake's body, though, if you would like to keep the silhouette in order. I think more spikes are needed for the spikes blocked by the front part of the sprite, as they currently look like they're in a single column going backwards diagonally. Perhaps just getting rid of the green area right behind the second band would deter that illusion.
    • Yveltal: Spriting, unfortunately, does not work well with stylization. :/ The bottom of the snake--the beige part--should not so drastically change from so skinny to so wide in such a short length, especially since the snake's width in its entirety isn't changing as well. If you do not intend that, look at the curvature of the body and see where it looks wider than it's supposed to be. Even if sprites are supposed to be 96x96 in limit, most snakes are much skinnier and smaller. Even Doug's sprite, which started out large, was larger than Rayquaza's sprite, and so he is reducing its size to keep it akin to other sprites' sizes. I would suggest you do the same. As for circles; do not use the Circle Tool on MS Paint, if you're using that. Instead, place pixels by hand so that they have a consistent concavity. Keep practicing, I'll say!
    • elcheeso: First thing I notice is that either the snake's head is too tall, or the mouth is too close to the head. A change of either works to get proportions consistent. I see that you have angles in your curves. In short terms, I'll ask you to curve them more. If I have to go into more detail, well, I'll see if I can discuss with you on IRC. :)
    • Kadew: I... do not think that pose will work for it currently. If you're making the main body clustered, provide shading to draw the eye toward its front rather than have it confused by which layer is its front, middle, and back (nice curves on that section, by the way). It's tilted a bit to the left, which I'm sure doesn't look like much in your image, but it does out on a sprite. Perspective edits so that the snake's head doesn't look like a ruler being pulled back can fix that. The apple attempts symmetry while not having symmetry. Make it more asymmetrical to dissuade that odd asymmetry when you're trying to make it symmetrical! And there was that last detail I mentioned about the shading on the lip before the fangs. The fangs are nicely done, but they should either have shading or the lips have none, since there is a large distinction there that's not present on the rest of the sprite. The eye looks like a shiny red bead without an iris currently. o3o Please add one. :)
  3. Yveltal

    Yveltal

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,045
    I'm stuck. Badly.
    [​IMG]
    Here's where mine is right now. My biggest issue are the spots. Like, all of them. There must be a hundred ways to sprite spots, and I have no clue where to start editing. I want all of them to have a consistant circular shape(or at least as often as possible), but what are the rules of drawing circles?

    Edit: Quanyails, I'm tackling the proportional problems now, before I get too into shading. Thanks ^_^ I wish there was a way to better communicate the width of the underside of its chin, so the transition further down the body isn't as drastic while still fixing the curve of the stomach as it hits the ground.
  4. elcheeso

    elcheeso
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    814
    Hrm I guess I'll post this updated version, if there's still problems with curvature/the head, feel free to tell me about it! :O

    [​IMG]
  5. soursurfer12

    soursurfer12

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2013
    Messages:
    4
    Hello, all. Very new to CAP, and not a strong spriter, but the overall spirit of CAP inspired me to give it a run anyway. I welcome all feedback and hope I don't offend the true artists too terribly with my rendition. Here's the sprite currently:

    [​IMG]

    Yes, I went off the beaten path in terms of pose. Hopefully this does not violate the first rule of the OP in terms of "too much artistic license". In this rendition, CAP 5 is using his own body here to form a noose, emphasizing his Dark typing. The Dark type will plow their way to victory by any means necessary and CAP 5 is not above that. Temptation knows no bounds with this 'mon.

    I've received some feedback on #cap already, and tried to implement it all as best I could. It is 2 am local time though, so I'm pushing this out for further review in the hopes of more critiques. I know I especially struggle with shading and I'm sure the snake's current contortions are physically impossible, so I'd love some suggestions on the construction of the coils.

    All in all, this, my first contribution to any CAP, was about having fun. I enjoyed putting it together and even if it doesn't win, I hope it inspires others to give CAP a go.

    Yveltal, some criticism: I actually think your circles are pretty good, with 2 exceptions. The last underbelly circle as it fades from view could probably be shifted one plane higher (as it is it looks too low and too large). Secondly, the center circle on the second orange band looks a bit warped. Just round it out, I think. Lastly, unrelated to those remarks, I think the angle of the neck coming out of the head is too drastic. He looks a bit like a hunchback.

    elcheeso: I much prefer your latest rendition. The coloring seems much more in the style of Pokemon, which I'm sure you're aware of. Perhaps my one suggestion would be to make the eyes more expressive, if possible. Also, the hind-ear should have a leaf pointing out to some extent, no? Looks bare without it.
  6. elcheeso

    elcheeso
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    814
    Whoop, just bumping this with my collection of potential shiny sprites modeled after the alternative colour schemes posted by dy8 in the art thread.

    [​IMG]
  7. Dracoyoshi8

    Dracoyoshi8 weapon of mass seduction
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2009
    Messages:
    889
    I didn't realize it when I was coloring but holy shitballs that Black/Red color scheme is badass. A side note, is there any way to make the other head leaf at least somewhat apparent, like maybe a tip appearing over the ridge?
  8. paintseagull

    paintseagull pink wingull
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2010
    Messages:
    858
    elcheeso: Improved from your first but the head still has some perspective problems. The curve in the jaw near the front of the mouth cuts off too suddenly, we should see more of it from that angle. The far eye ridge is too sharply defined from the head. It looks like a flat plate attached to the side of the head, when it's supposed to be a slight flare to the head shape. If you smooth out that curve and remove/make more subtle the distinction between the head shape and the ridge shape it should work better.

    The tongue is too fat inside the mouth and the whole thing should have an outline. Showing one set of upper fangs on the top of the mouth would be enough I think. You could instead try including small fangs on the bottom of the mouth. This should help with the muddiness that's going on in this part of your sprite.

    The highlights on the head are way too strong and incorrectly placed and you don't even need them. Leave the main highlight on the body if you want, but the one on the neck and the ones on the face can be removed completely, especially the one on the closest eye ridge which doesn't belong at all.

    The body is really well done (though I see a few pixels on the far body to indicate spots that could be removed for simplicity) and this could be a really stand out sprite - just fix perspective problems and simplify, basically :)

    [might edit in some other comments later]
  9. Wyverii

    Wyverii "What I cannot create, I do not understand."
    is an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    May 1, 2008
    Messages:
    798
    [​IMG]

    Changelog

    Front:
    Shading on the neck, at the jaw, pulled back.
    Head leaf made a little fuller.
    Striping made more yellow.
    Stripe near the first set of leaf spikes moved up.
    Underbelly colour pulled up to the mouth.
    Minor pixel changes on the outline.
    Middle stripe dots made a little less apparent.

    Back:
    Underbelly rehauled so that it sits under the curves of the body properly.
    Darkest shade removed, it's not accurate to how most gen 5 sprites are presented.
    Head leaf made fuller.
    Tail parts repositioned.
    Striping shifted.
    Leaf spines made longer and fuller.
    Neck tweaked at the jaw.
    Tweaks around outline to get curves to loop properly with new positions.

    Shiny:
    Black stripes changed to a pinkish red, to mirror normal colouration.
  10. Scorpio

    Scorpio

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    395
    Okay, here's my sprite with Quanyail's suggested changes:

    [​IMG]

    And here's an attempt at a backsprite, without any detailing, since it's just a pose test.

    [​IMG]

    As always, feedback would be appreciated.
  11. noobiess

    noobiess

    Joined:
    Nov 28, 2009
    Messages:
    500
    Here is an updat of my sprite:
    [​IMG]
    The face is a bit less cartoony and tried to make the spikes better.

    Wow wyverii,just when you think it looks perfect, it gets even better. Nicely done.
  12. DFrog

    DFrog

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Critique:
    • Quanyails: Your sprites look good but the main problem I have with them is that your Malaconda is very fat. Granted it stats do seem to reflect a slower pokemon but your sprite shows this overly so, the main 'fat' area I would specifically fix is the head/face. That area of Malaconda needs to be elongated or possibly a pose change to better showcase the length of the face/emotion. Other than the that the sprites a beautifully done, the only real criticism of the colour I could make is that on the normal sprite the ear leaves and spikes seems too bright a possible darkening of these parts.
    • Wyverii: Not really a critique but more of a 'jumping on the bandwagon' statement because that sprite is easily one of the best submission posted thus far. The pose radiates a cool and collected vibe, a pokemon that shouldn't be messed with.
    • noobiess: Like with Wyverii, this is not a true critique but a complement on the quality of your submission. It is fantastic in all areas. Your pose has a completely different personality, it seems to be actively tempting other pokemon with that apple of his. Your sprite should definitely be considered one of the better submissions thus far.
    • elcheeso: The sprite is good up until the head, which is the main feature of Malaconda. As a whole the only part of the main body that is disappointing is the apple on the end of the tail, perhaps the tail should hook over and the apple is hanging upside down, however this critique is minor compared the overall unappealing-ness of the head. The three main faults with the head that I find is that the 'eyebrow' ridge is too large throwing of the proportions of the head and the placement of the leaf, the second fault which is linked into the first is that the back of the head is too rounded (if that makes sense to you)–overall the head and ridges should be flattened to give your Malaconda sprite to look more 'snakey'. The third fault is that the mouth and tough has what I think are weird proportions; namely that the mouth is too wide open. Ideally it should be closed or ajar with the tongue poking out. Should you decide to leave the mouth open, I am seconding what paintseagull said, that the tongue should be thinner and possibly smaller.
  13. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
    is a member of the Site Staffis an Artistis a Programmeris a CAP Contributoris an Administratoris a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus
    CAP Leader

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2007
    Messages:
    3,042
    I had intended to get to work on the backsprite, but Mos and Quan had some great feedback that made me realize my front sprite still needed some work. Here's the update:

    [​IMG]

    As Mos pointed out, the head had some problems and the fangs were too jagged, so I've tried to fix up the head in several ways. I made the head a little more elongated and changed the cranium shape too. I wish I could make the fangs a little longer, but with the angle of the head, I really can't without making the fangs jagged again. So the fangs are smaller than I would prefer, but cleaner and more symmetrical. I also changed the ear leaves to have some more shading and less veins, at Mos' suggestion. Quanyails pointed out several issues with the body spikes, which have been giving me fits with this pose. I've made some small positioning changes to the spikes, but I plan to work on them more to try to address more of the things Quan mentioned. We'll see how that works out.

    As always, thanks for the feedback. For some reason, when I get immersed in looking at the pixels of a sprite, I sometimes can't see the obvious stuff casual observers notice. Your comments have been much appreciated!
  14. Yveltal

    Yveltal

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,045
    After some heavy resizing...
    [​IMG]
    It's a comin'. I think it's 75 pixels high now. His eye is a mess, it's been bugging me all day. I hate how different the whole thing looks when it's not scaled at 800%. I need to find a better shade of green.
  15. Agile Turtle

    Agile Turtle

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2013
    Messages:
    94
    [​IMG]

    Not done yet, but figured I'd post it as I have it colored at least. I still need to do touch ups on the outline, especially on the leaves, and I still haven't shaded yet. As I continue to improve this sprite, any feedback on it would be greatly appreciated.
  16. Quanyails

    Quanyails
    is an Artistis a Community Contributor

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2011
    Messages:
    591
    [​IMG]

    Does this resolve any comments about the size of Malaconda's body in proportion to its head? I don't want to change the head seeing how malformed it appeared when I tried it last. ._. I also made the ear leaves more angled back.

    Comments:
    Show Hide

    • Yveltal: You don't have to emphasize certain proportions; if you must, just watch the curves of the snake, or try having it in the backsprite. If you would like rounder dots that cannot be achieved by simple outlines, anti-alias a bit. :) (You may need to look up what that is.) Do you use thumbnails of any sort? I use them as well as Ctrl + F on MS Paint to quickly view what the sprite looks like at normal magnification. It is very useful to me.
    • elcheeso: The head is still quite vertically oriented. D: I also disapprove of the 'glossy' shading you're using on the bright parts, as Malaconda is not all that shiny. Fixing those should make your sprite much more proportional and akin to in-game ones (not that mine are any better XD).
    • soursurfer12: I would suggest to have a less arbitrary pose, since I can't see how it would move around easily if it's animated. Granted, snakes are one long line and so it may debilitate creative poses, but knots are rather unnatural, wouldn't you think? If you'd really want to stick with that pose, at least make it smaller and make the apple less flat-looking. Comparing with other snake sprites is what I do. :)
    • Scorpio: That band still needs to be more curved. It's getting there, but more so! The yellows could be a little dimmer, as they current look like they're glowing. As for the back sprite: The bottom portion is of a flatter curve than the top portion. Could they be of the same curvature; both rounder or both flatter?
    • noobiess: Muuuuch better. :) Only the lopsided apple irks me, and that is small compared to the entire sprite. Carry on with the backsprite!
    • DougJustDoug: One more concern I notice about the head is the position of the jaws--you're not the only spriter that has had problems with that. The bottom jaw sticks out, making that smile goofy, so moving it to the right a few pixels should fix the underbite. I will await edits to the spikes!
    • Agile Turtle: Very nice! You have a nice shape for most of the snake, although the sprite is rather lopsided from the head in the top left and tail in the lower right. I'd balance it out by arching the back, but feel free to do what you can to make it equal. The smile on the snake is a tad wide; if you make it taper off at the end, it'll look more sly and less forced. Could you also make the apple's bottom less like the wings of a butterfly? It's just a bit wide and flat compared to what I would expect from a rounded shape.
  17. Vann Accessible

    Vann Accessible

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2013
    Messages:
    111
    [​IMG]

    I haven't made a sprite in forever, but I figured I'd throw my hat in the ring.

    I've noticed most of the submitted sprites have Malconda in an errect striking position. While it's definitely a cool pose, my version of Malconda takes a more defensive approach. My idea is, since he's a defensive pokemon, he should be in a covert coiled pose, make sense?

    I picture Malconda as an ambush hunter, as are most real snakes. He hides, coiled up, camoflouged by his earthen coloring and grass blades with his apple dangling visibly higher. When the unsuspecting prey comes in for a free meal, Malconda then makes his presence known and strikes with his deadly fangs!

    I'm still a little iffy on the needles and shading, but I'm pretty proud with how he turned out. Any feedback is appreciated. :)
  18. Yveltal

    Yveltal

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2013
    Messages:
    1,045
    Quanyails, I'm worried that anti-aliasing will throw me over the 16 color palette limit before I get to shading. I'm probably going to make all of the spots elliptical, they're a bit easier to keep a natural look to.
  19. Psylink

    Psylink

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2012
    Messages:
    256
    Wow, cartoons! No really, that's awesome. Maybe You could position him in such a way that it's head is kind of cocked back like Rayquaza's DPP sprite.
  20. Bugbot

    Bugbot

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    200
    Looks great so far. I love the pose you gave it in particular. The shading could use some work, however. The upper part of its neck (body? lol) has a weird bump and kinda feels out-of-place. The needles look alright, but fixing the shading will most likely make them look better.

    Keep up the good work!
  21. Lovebite

    Lovebite

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2009
    Messages:
    149
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    here's my entry, had a shit ton of fun doing it today.took a tiny bit of artistic licence. shiny, female, and back coming soon.

    thoughts? does it look better colored like the others or is the vibrant one more appealing?
  22. Kirbyofthestars

    Kirbyofthestars

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    That's a great sprite!! However, at least in my opinion, the style of the sprite seems like something more similar to Pokemon Conquest sprites than to main game sprites.
    For example, Shiny Rayquaza in Pokemon Conquest (http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/e/e4/PCP384.png) compared to the sprite of Shiny Rayquaza in Black 2/White 2 (http://cdn.bulbagarden.net/upload/6/6c/Spr_5b_384_s.png).
  23. Scorpio

    Scorpio

    Joined:
    Oct 23, 2010
    Messages:
    395
    Here's my next submission. I did the things Qunyails suggested (backsprite's still in the works), plus an attempt at shading. Also, I was thinking that I could lower the tail so I would have an easier time with the backsprite.

    [​IMG]

    Enjoy, feedback appreciated, and do you care whether or not I lower the tail on my sprite?
  24. elcheeso

    elcheeso
    is an Artistis a Forum Moderator
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 3, 2011
    Messages:
    814
    K, update! Fixed the head and tail and made him a little thinner, hope everyone likes it! Still down for feedback on what shiny sprites people like the most. A sprite that changes monthly would be kinda cool but I guess that isn't an option, haha.

    [​IMG]
  25. DFrog

    DFrog

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2009
    Messages:
    1,172
    Praise/Critique:
    • elcheeso: Your sprites are so improved and I think they look amazing. The issues I pointed out in my original critique (and perhaps others) have been corrected to great effect. Your Malaconda looks fantastic!
    • Vann Accessible: The Malaconda pose you chose is really cool and well executed. As you said in your post you could fiddle with the shading to add depth to the sprite, however, the main concern for the sprite I have is that the pose seems too dynamic for a B/W sprite–hopefully someone disproves that issue because overall that is a great sprite!
    • Yveltal: The sprite is cool but clearly a work in progress (something you may have already mentioned but I digress). There I several core segments of the sprite you could work on in your next submission:
      • The bend in the neck is unnecessary, the pose should be more fluid and snake-like. The crook in Malaconda's neck gives the pose an awkward disposition that Malaconda should not have.
      • Work on the smaller details particularly the leaves on the head and the shading of the belly. In you current submission they two part of the sprite look especially unpolished and could definitely some work–I'd like to think that you are already addressing this issue after you figure out the pose you'd like to use.
      Don't let the seemingly negative critique deter you, as a whole the the sprite is very well put together.
    • Lovebite: I have only one problem with the sprite, being it is very large, especially the apple (it deters from the actual pokemon, its not Mawile). Shrinking the sprite as a whole and downsizing the presence of the apple would be majorly beneficial to the overall appearance of the sprite. Despite that though, other aspects of the sprite are very good–especially the shading and the actual pose is marvellous!
    • Quanyails: Very much an improvement from the previous iteration. This might just be something I'm not happy with but the face seems short and snubbed. I still think Malaconda's muzzle could be longer, however, this particular complaint may only pertain to myself. Overall though it is a great sprite!
    • DougJustDoug**: I think the head is too–personally is should be angled up slightly for two reasons:
      1. It matches the angle of neck better in my opinion
      2. Would look better in combination with the 'asshole' (smug) smile that you have given your Malaconda sprite
      Aside from the issues mentioned above your sprite has great potential!
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)