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Counter that Pokemon - Mk III [Team 2 won!]

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by ganj4lF, Dec 7, 2012.

  1. HackerKing

    HackerKing

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    With only a few boosts, Kyurem can switch out for a fighting type and with a lot of boosts, Cloyster is wrecked by Dragon Tail. That's why I said Focus Sash, though in hindsight, White Herb would work too.

    But I'm serious about Suction Cups Craydily. It seems like a surefire counter to Kyurem-B. I'll post a set soon, but with Curse, Rock Slide, Rest, and Sleep Talk (or Curse, Recover, Earthquake and Rock Slide), Kyrem becomes set-up fodder for Craydily. Dragon Tail can't force it out as it stacks boosts then rests off all damage.
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Well, Forry can switch in and set up on Kyurem-B as well as playing as a offensive hazards lead (Cause Custap + Sturdy) so no matter how the OP decides to play you will always have at least one way where you can set up hazards. If team 1 is actually going to go to the trouble of using the odd Magic Bouncer or the inconvenient Spinners, then that means Forry is doing his job. (we know what Team 1 is using so nobody is going to be stupid enough to just let them set up on Forry) Kyurem-B has a lot of things that can check it easy. Stuff like Disable Gengar (which also kinda Spin Blocks) or Offensive Ballon Roar Heatran as better counter team picks depending on the rest of the OP's team. (like if they do decide to add a Spinner or if they try to run us over with Mence) Forry also pairs really nicely with SubSalac Terrakion as he can set up on most of his defensive checks, like Gliscor, Hippowdon, and Skarmoary, as well as a lot of his offensive ones, such as Scizor, Scarf Latios, and Breloom. (Or well not so much Breloom) This is all on top of the fact that Custap + Sturdy can let him play aggressively with Hazards setting or even pull an emergency Rapid Spin if needed. Sure, it doesn't do much directly to Kyu-B but it turns it into a liability and there is a huge list of potential checks that you listed already. (which we can choose from later when we have a better idea of what would be more annoying to the Team 1 in general) Forretress with something like Terrakion puts pressure on Team 1 in two ways, trying to prevent a sweep and trying to not completely lose the Hazards game.
  3. Bryce

    Bryce Lun

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    @HackerKing-Cloyster can switch in on Kyurem once or may be twice and still have enough bulk to set up later.But the -1 def would make it harder to set up if weakened thus white herb is necessary.It isn't really necessary for Cloyster to deal with Breloom by itself.

    On the topic of Forretress,I agree with ginjaninja .Forretress doesn't really help against Kyurem-B.It can actually abuse forry to get multiple boosts and then dtailing forry out while hiding behind a Sub at full health.This can easily cause a major shift of momentum in Team 1's favor.As they can simply Spin away the Hazards.Whatever spin blocker we choose,Team 1 can make a custom spinner set to beat it.They can even use Foresight Hitmontop.Not to mention the possibility of Magic Bouncers,Speaking of which
    Actually no,the magic bouncers will have done their job.A magic bouncer means Forretress is bascally useless while the Magic Bouncers can still fulfill the job of blocking other non damaging moves as well as serving a purpose individually.Espeon/Xatu can set up Dual screens,Espeon has a nice 130/110 special offense allowing it to pull of a mini-sweep with calm mind,with other options such as SubPass,and keep non scarfed fightings in check and may be dragons too with HP Ice.While Xatu can spread Para,wall breloom and utilize it's resistances very well,while shutting down a good part of defensive threats like Amoongus,Skarmory etc.

    Your Forry set is also set up bait for pretty much any and every sweeper since the only thing you can do is lay hazards or Rapid Spin.Giving it SR,Spikes and Rapid Spin will also overload it's duties.
  4. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Okay, since noone used my previous suggestion, why not do it myself?

    [​IMG]
    Heatran @ Leftovers | Flash Fire
    Timid | 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    - Substitute
    - Roar
    - Fire Blast
    - Earth Power

    This set is very, very similar to the one already proposed, but with one key difference: it doesn't need to rely on Fire Blast (8 PP and bad accuracy) or on WoW (even worse accuracy) to beat Kyurem. It can switch in on anything except Dragon Tail safely (and even if it switches into DTail, it doesn't do much anyway). Then, once in, you can set up Substitute no matter what, since +0 DTail cannot break it, and +1 DTail has a small chance to do so (and it would imply that Cube didn't Sub on the switch, which is potentially unsafe if we go for a strong Fighting poke afterwards). Then just Roar. The result is a Heatran with a Substitute intact and a Kyurem-B forced to take SR damage once more, possibly Spikes, and that needs to find another free switch / free turn to set up Sub or to Roost / boost its damage. And, even in the unlikely event of a +6 Cube (or just a Cube with a relevant number of boosts), Heatran can solve everything coming in and just Roaring after something dies, since it won't take any damage (and even if it takes a +6 DTail for some reasons, it deals 70% max anyway).

    This Heatran has huge synergy with hazards setters, since things like Ferrothorn, Forretress and Skarmory can lure Fire attacks / attackers that are generally countered by Heatran's typing and ability, and it can take full advantage of hazards by shuffling (even its own counters thanks to Sub) with Roar.
  5. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    Speaking of sub disable Gengar - im amazed that noone has selected it yet. Subs on the first tail, then dizables it and gg cube.

    Obviously getting hit by a tail upon switching in is bad, but this guess for every non-suction cups mon.
  6. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    I don't think it's such a good idea, obviously it beats Kyurem-B, but having a Gengar with an exposed set is always a thing you prefer to avoid.
  7. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I actually thought that, but once you Disable it, you cannot do much since Focus Blast is barely a 2HKO and Shadow Ball is just enough to break its Subs. It can just keep Roosting / Substituting until Disable wears off, and unless you want to try a PP stall war (which is boring and I don't want to rely on that) you're forced to switch yourself, and while you can take advantage of that via a set-up sweeper, you are forced out yourself rather than Cube. So I preferred the Heatran set I listed above, since it doesn't give two shits about what it's going to switch into, and can force Cube out no matter what.
  8. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    You swap to a set-up sweeper, but Cube can't do anything. It can only Sub or Roost. If you bust out a double dance Terrak, for example, noone's going to keep Cube in with D-tail disabled.
  9. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    When you switch to Terrakion, Kyurem is going to Sub on the switch. Then it can stall by continuosly Subbing for another 5 turns (assuming full health), so if Disable lasts less than 6 turns, it may be even able to phaze out Terrakion. A SubSD set would be more dangerous, however the point is that Gengar is less reliable than other counters, and it depends from a set-up sweeper that we still don't have to get the job done. Not only we're taking something that's not optimal in doing its job, but we're also giving informations to Team 1 that we will take something that is threatening for Cube and ca set-up somewhat on him. That just doesn't seem the best choice to me. Also, if Gengar switches into DTail (which could be more probable than in an average battle, since the opponent will know the sets beforehand) it's definitely crippled for the rest of the match, while a random Steel type (like Cobalion, Jirachi or Heatran) won't.
  10. RedRascal

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    ^ This is what I see as the main problem with Gengar. Predicting wrong and switching into a D-tail and Gengar takes a minimum of 59% + SR. Hell, if Kyurem gets off a Hone Claws it's a solid OHKO on Gengar after SR damage. I don't think a "counter" to something should get one shot switching in... I like the idea of sub disable since it completely shuts down Kyurem-B but it can still stall Gengar out or just roost and switch to their Gengar counter.

    Something that I think would be really nice (though obviously not neccesary) is just a faster Roar/Whirlwind user. This guarantees the only thing Kyurem-B can do it Roost up as it gets roared out. If we want to be lazy and not have to bother predicting the D-tail we can go with a steel type like Cobalion or Heatran (I'd lean toward an offensive Heatran over coballion, base 90 atk doesn't put much pressure on team 1).

    But if we want to really put the pressure on we can go with something like a faster dragon that learns Roar. This includes the following: Lati@s, Dragonite, Garchomp, Haxorus, Hydreigon and Salamence. It may not be viable to do something like MixMenve w/Roar because that removes a coverage move and makes it easier to wall but something along the lines of Sub/Roar/Calm Mind/DragonPulse could be fun as it can act as a hard counter to Kyurem-B and a bulky wall/pivot. I'd rather have a more offensive counter but it's just a thought.

    Other fast pokes that learn roar include: Keldeo, Ninetales (eeeew), Mamoswine, Terrakion, Lucario, (the aforementioned) Heatran and Cobalion, Infernape and Jolteon. Volcarona actually gets whirlwind as well, so that's another option.

    Obviously some aren't that fast but with investment easily outspeed and in the case of something like Mamoswine is still a good poke even with a move taken out for Roar (like EQ/Ice Shard/Icicle Crash/Roar). This runs into the problem of being more easily walled by something like Rotom-W but that will happen with any offensive poke that we might run Roar on.

    Just some thoughts. I'll likely pick one of these and make a set soonish.
  11. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    There is something annoying here.
    First Heatran can be traped and killed by a pokemon like Dugtrio@FocusSash and this, no matter what we may pick. Moreover the Roar makes this possibility likely to happen (not even saying that Duggy can come after a kill and solves the case if Heatran substitute is broken or if he still has his Sash).

    But the most important to me, you can not damage the Kyurem, while Fire Blast is an highly unreliable move with low PP, it doesn't even deal more than 50% to Kyurem.
    No matter how many damages he racks off, he can still Roost it when you Roar, since in fact that's the only thing this Heatran can do to Kyurem.
    Because yes, EarthPower can't break a substitute.
    So in fact, first Heatran needs to Substitute everytime he comes on Kyurem, then he will Roar. This pokemon has no other options, making it really predictable.
    So Heatran switches in, hmm he Substitute, and well he Roar (nothing else he can do no?). That's three steps and Kyurem in full life in the end (if we supposed the ennemy does nothing).
    Finally, this set is really not useful outside of Kyurem, Roar with no bulk is not something I really like to use.

    My point is, in the end this Heatran can only Roar Kyurem and switch in "fairly decently" (given the SR+Spikes exposure).
    So in fact, why not pick Cobalion and put Roar on it, he will just do the job better. You won't need to invest si hard in Speed and be so weak, you have far more coverage, physical bulk etc.
  12. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Yeah, Cobalion works too I guess, you can edit your submission to propose that. I don't really see where is the problem with Roaring Cube out, it's reduced to uselessness without anything it can do, and you're not forced to Sub by any means (switch in and Roar works too, but you're giving up a free Sub which doesn't seem a great idea to me). The main difference between Heatran and Cobalion, in my opinion, is that the former actually has some sort of offensive presence (130 base Special Attack), while the latter is forced to rely on weak coverage moves coming from an unboosted 90 (Sp)Atk, since your set doesn't even carry Expert Belt. Cobalion is faster, yeah, but it's more starved for moveslots than Heatran, so you either lose coverage to use Roar (which is much worse for a poke with so low attacking stats) or forego the ability to get free Subs out of Kyurem, which is quite tempting to be honest. Also, picking Cobalion in my experience will be troubling since it brings a Fire weakness to the team while not being really able to wall Dragon types (no recovery, weak on Special side so Fire Blasts will hurt quite a bit, and Draco Meteors will dent hard anyway). Heatran, on the other hand, has a set of weaknesses which aren't too hard to handle, and can take attacks from both sides of the spectrum somewhat, although it's not designed to wall.
  13. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Setting up Hazards gives a huge advantage. Cube is so easy to check with stuff like DisableGar or fast Phaze (or even stuff like Destiny Bond Fett). Letting it boost up to set up hazards isn't a big deal since it can easily be forced out before it can make use of those +6 Dtails.
    We would only choose a spin blocker if they choose a spinner and we would tailor it to be that spinner. That's assuming we want to even bother with a spin blocker as just having a crap ton of sweepers makes spinning hard to do especially since Starmie is the only thing we have to a reliable spin (Tenta needs rain, everything else is stupidly slow and easy to spin block) while having some offensive presence. (Sandslash needs Sand) Running some like Scarf Goth or Scarf Tar puts Starmie between a rock and a hard place even when it manages to find a chance to spin. Either it goes for a kill and gets revenged afterwards before it can spin or it spins and gives a free turn of set up.

    True. However, Espy and Xatu are both Pursuit weak (as well as punishable by Gothitelle). You are right though that Forry ends up less useful than they are.

    We aren't going to leave Forry in and let things get to +6. One turn of set up (if we even let it that much) is going to be hard countered by one of our others picks so this isn't a big problem.

    It's a suicide lead that can be reserved to troll Kyurem-B. However, now that I think about it Rapid Spin isn't really needed to put Deo-D in a tight spot so it can easily be dropped for something like Gyro Ball (Strong STAB that punished Espeon and beats up Kyurem-B) or Volt Switch (scouts switch-ins and hits Xatu). I'll go ahead and edit Gyro Ball in since it puts some pressure on Kyurem-B and pops its subs while punishing it's choice to SubRoost Stall with Hazards. This avoids the problem of him setting up to +6 and then hidding behind a Sub as it can be busted right before it Dtails Forry out. (0 Atk Forretress Gyro Ball (78 BP) vs. 252 HP / 64 Def Kyurem-B: 146-174 (32.15 - 38.32%) -- 1.49% chance to 3HKO) Some other options are Explosion, Screens and Bulldoze/String Shot (to drop speed, trolololol) so if you guys think another attack is a better choice let me know.
  14. Reymedy

    Reymedy They live and die by my command.
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    Yes you're not forced to Substitute, but if you don't, you're weak to anything you will drag with Roar.
    I don't feel like changing Cobalion set, I don't like the idea of Roaring when you can just set-up and force Kyurem out just by your presence, without being forced to waste a turn Phazing.
    For the offensive presence I disagree, Heatran needs Roar (since he can threaten Kyurem), thus he loses a coverage move. It could be okay, but here they know the moveset, they exactly know which moves you run, so a Dragonite with EQ could either get a kill or set-up and isn't afraid of your moves. Bolt Beam plus CC gives a perfect coverage, it may not hit hard, but it is most of the time enough and Volt-Switch destroys any change of real counter. Moreover these attacks are mixed, and this is pretty great.

    I don't see why Cobalion couldn't get a free sub from Kyurem too, even a +2 Kyurem can't break it, it's not the case for Heatran. In fact it can break at +1 a Heatran sub, it just has a little less than 50% (3/7 if I understood it correctly) to do so.

    For the weaknesses point I agree, but Heatran weaknesses can be focused in this particular cases, and I believe they are easier to abuse (Duggy as I said, or anything with EQ).
  15. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    Okay, we got enough discussion I guess. Let's start voting for the first member of Team 2! But let me answer a question first.

    Nope, both Team 1 and Team 2 are free to pick a Stunfisk even if the other team already has one. Sorry! Now, to the vote.

    This is a single bold voting; you can vote for only one entry, picked from the following list:
    * Ability is Rock Solid. Please, next time edit your set to include everything that's required. I won't list incomplete sets anymore after this vote.

    When voting, you should post only the name of the user that proposed your favourite set, bolded (you can add whatever commentary you like, not bolded, under your vote). A properly formatted vote looks like this:

    Self voting is allowed. You have about 24 hours to vote. Go!
  16. Groudon ex

    Groudon ex

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    ganj4lF

    sub heatran is a boss
  17. Turtle Soup

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    ganj4lF

    Voting on it cause I also considered submitting a similar Heatren set, also don't want to vote on my self, even if it's allowed.
  18. Bossness

    Bossness

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    Eranu

    I am choosing a pokemon that is not easily countered. It can U-turn out on a predicted switch. Also, something like Deoxys-D is easily countered by Magic Bounce.
  19. TGMD

    TGMD +Biosci: you both gave me crabs
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  20. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Don't like the TRIO weakness which Team #1 could easily pick and besides, I like Turtle Soup's Deoxys-D opening us up to the HO route which utterly screws with Kyurem-B since its weaker vs HO teams. Deoxys-D is also a massive (BAN ME PLEASE) and possibly getting free layers on Kyurem-B is really, really going to piss Team #1 off.
  21. ClubbingSealCub

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  22. Arcticblast

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    I'm quoted in the vote post, I feel important!

    ClubbingSealCub

    I like Dual Chop but have had no prior interaction with CSC before, I swear... (Hi CSC!)
  23. HackerKing

    HackerKing

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    Herp derp. I was going to post my craydily set!

    But I vote
    ganj4lF
    because sub-Heatran gives Kyurem big problems.
  24. RedRascal

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    ganj4lF

    • Remedy's Substitute Cobalion
      Nice coverage but CC can be PP stalled a little too easily. It's also your only move that can touch a sub (HP Ice doesn't always 2HKO a sub and Volt Switch does a meager 5-7%
    • Eranu's SD Scizor
      U-turn removes the boosts and so does D-tail. This just looks silly to me, even if it does threaten Kyurem-B.
    • Qwertyuiop's SubCM Jirachi
      This is nice in that it can set up on Kyurem-B but there are plenty of pokes that resist the coverage and can even set up in Jirachi's face. Not great since it's easily countered since they'll know the set.
    • ClubbingSealCub's CB Haxorus
      The raw power is great but it doesn't really beat Kyurem-B, just maims it and gets crippled in return.
    • Alexander's Substitute Heatran
      Burning this Kyurm-B makes it near useless (bar the annoyance of phazing) but it can't do anything against Kyurem-B already behind a sub. It can easily PP stalling fire blast with a miss and this heatran is also heavily walled by anything that resists fire and doesn't mind the burn.
    • Turtle Soup's Deoxys-D
      I'll be honest: I kind of skipped this one. Magic bounce/spinner makes the hazard setting useless and I'm not a big fan of HO. I'm also kind of a nub so what do I know.
    • Crackstar's Rhyperior *
      More or less same boat as Haxorus. Doesn't really beat Kyurem-B it just hurts it and then gets shuffled again. It's speed makes it easily countered as well by most anything with a STAB SE move.
    • White Symphoni's Cloyster
      Again, a nice idea but doesn't quite hold up. Granted better than the other two since it serves dual purpose and takes minimal damage from D-tail (Rhyperior also doesn't take heavy damage but is much less threatening). Using Rock Blast off the bat though means Cloyster isn't set up and thus much less threatening in the case of a switch/counter.
    • Melee Mewtwo's Forretress
      Forretress is complete set up bait. A suicide lead should not be used in this kind of scenario. Spinning also negates the hazards. Doesn't even run volt-switch to work as a bulky pivot.
    • ganj4lF's Substitute Heatran
      Why I chose this set: Roar.

      Faster roar is a hard stop to Kyurem-B (barring last poke standing) and Sub+Roar means you're virtually guaranteed a free sub since it resists D-tail (Cobalion also does this but can be PP stalled and has sub par power without at least expert belt). Anything that is dragged or switched into Heatran has to take a hit in order to break a sub. It's still walled by a few things (looking at you Rotom-W) but they can be countered/overrun by the next (preferably rather offensive) poke.

    I know the set is already set but one thing I personally would like to see is Flamethrower > Fire Blast. There is a loss of power but this makes it a complete counter to SubRoostHoneClaws Kyurem-B since Flamethrower still easily breaks the sub (35-41% compared to FB 45-52%) and can't be PP stalled. In essence, in a last poke scenario, Kyurem-B can potentially PP stall FB but not Flamethrower and then proceed to Hone Claws while Earth Power fails to break subs (22-26% so there's a chance but I wouldn't rely on it).
  25. Dice

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    Turtle Soup's Deoxys-D.

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