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Garchomp

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by AfroThunderRule, Oct 12, 2012.

  1. StairFall

    StairFall

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    I wonder if Chomp would fit well on a sun team? Not like a Tales sun team but maybe run it with sunny day heatran on an otherwise weatherless team for that temporary pseudo fire stab as well as getting rid of the other teams weather permanently because the weather starter is usually the first thing to go on a weather team when you face weatherless.
  2. lordkira

    lordkira

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    I'll readdress these questions

    Since my questions were completely ignored I'll ask again as I'd love to hear what others have to say about these particular subjects.

    One thing I'm curious ta this point, which I'd lik to test in this meta is to compare garchomp and dragonite under rain and sun. As much as I firmly believe garchomp will remain to be one of the top-tier mons, I can't say I'd personally choose garchomp over dragonite under the sun and rainstorm. Garchomp does have the raw speed, natural bulk, SR resistance, and STAB EQ, I'm wondering if that's enough to be chosen over dragonite, which has multiscale, dragon dance to sweep easier, and ground-attack resistance.

    As for the CB set, garchomp, again, has the natural speed and STAB-EQ advantages (and more). But dragonite bring its multiscale and extremespeed (though I personally belive ES to be a very situational attack that isn't too big of an advantage).

    And to end my series of questions, I'd like to finish off with a technical question: Is it really important to look at the pokemon's future effect on the meta...whether it will be healthy to the meta or not? Or are we simply looking at the uncompetitiveness/brokenness of one specific mon?

    Very well. I find the SDYache with fire fang or fire blast (and flamethrower to a certain extent) to work the best under the sun. While its CB set is very potent under the sun, it comes back to my question (so I guess I'm not answering your question): is CBChomp better than CBNite under the sun and in general? At this point, I'm honestly very doubtful of CBChomp's capabilities compared to those of CBNite.
  3. RaikouLover

    RaikouLover

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    Yes, finally a Stealth Rocker I can use and not feel like a loser.

    Garchomp (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sand Veil
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 240 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Dual Chop / Dragon Tail
    - Fire Blast
    - Stealth Rock

    Just a better Swampert. Pretty much always going to get Stealth Rock down, still hits hard. Good coverage for the steels. Dual Chop / Dragon Tail help prevent set up. Dual Chop I like better in a Substitute Happy metagame. Speed is enough for neutral base 100s (mainly because Adamant Haxorus is evil).
  4. FastFlygon

    FastFlygon

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    I honestly don't think one of CB Dragonite/CB Garchomp will outclass the other. They both have a plethora of advantages. I think the biggest advantages for both are the resitances they respectively sport. Dragonite has a solid water resist, which is always appreciated, as well as resistances to Fighting and Grass, which are slightly less useful but still relevant. It also has a U-turn resistance, although Garchomp does not so much suffer here as it has Rough Skin to punish U-turners anyway. Garchomp lacks an Sr weakness, and is immune to Electic and resistant to Rock.

    What this means is that the rest of the team is going to have a big impact on the dragon chosen. Weak to strong water moves? Dragonite's got your back. Need a Thunder Wave absorber? Go for Garchomp. The actual difference in their ability to kill things is relatively small, although I feel like STAB EQ and the higher base speed gives Garchomp an edge, versus the better defensive complement of Dragonite. The nature of the team will also impact the pick, although in a somewhat unusual way. In general, a faster, more offensive team will prefer Grachomp's solid speed and STAB EQ, while a bulkier team will enjoy Dragonite's resistances, Multiscale and Extremespeed for picking off faster threats.

    They're both pretty unique Pokemon, however, because you could quite easily reverse this. Dragonite has the power to add a splash of bulk to a more offensive team, while Garchomp's natural bulk is enough for it to add a burst of speed to a bulkier team. TL;DR Neither will have any specific advantage, the choice will depend much more on the team than the Dragon.
  5. malomyotismon

    malomyotismon

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    max defence fortress isn't i am sure of it, but anyways he has the issue that both these pokemon prevent him spamming outrage.
  6. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Garchomp is plenty bulky and possibly bulkier than dragonite when multiscale is down. Fire punch is more powerful than fire fang and dragonite's attack is naturally higher so its moves are more powerful when swords dance is left out of the equation with choice band.

    However without lefties Nite's multiscale is broken if SS is up, he takes 25% from rocks (though no spikes damage) and he's far too slow (ES is pretty much crap). Chomp has a SR resistance which is important because CB encourages hitting and running not sweeping, outspeeds mence and thundurus-t and has STAB EQ.

    So Despite Dragonite being more powerful Chomp is much better suited to using a Band.
  7. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

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    Doesn't seem that great against the current lead meta; you lose pretty hard to Politoed, Genesect, Deoxys-D, and you're only really good against Ninetales and Tyranitar.
  8. Huntofthelion

    Huntofthelion Live for the nights you can't remember
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    It depends on what your team needs when you're picking between the two, so I don't think there's a right choice for every team. Garchomp isn't SR weak which is cool for sun teams because it's one less thing you need to worry about spinning in order to protect. He won't be as strong since he's generally weaker and Fire Fang < Fire punch, and he'll lack Extremespeed to help revenge kill. But he's faster so if your team is a little on the slow side you might want to throw him in. For Rain, Garchomp won't get Hurricane, but he'll have an electric immunity which is cool when you're running several water-types on your team.

    As for Dragon Dance vs Sword Dance sets, they're really pretty different. DD Dragonite will boost it's speed up but it won't be as strong as fast, meaning it needs the other team to be worn down a little bit more. He also typically lacks a stab move other than outrage (or he's running Dragon Claw which is a lot weaker) so it's much easier to lure him into being locked into outrage. Garchomp gets really powerful really fast and can use earthquake to handle more neutral threats without locking himself in, but his speed isn't getting boosted so he's easier to revenge kill. Garchomp also doesn't have Multiscale, but at the same time he'll have a much easier time setting up if SR is in play compared to Dnite. They aren't really interchangeable and they work better on different teams.

    I think overall Garchomp is better, but I don't think he outclasses Dragonite at all. They both have unique functions and it really does depend on what you're trying to do and what your team needs that team member to contribute.
  9. Jimbon

    Jimbon fools and worthless liars
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

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    I'm not that fond of comparing one Pokemon against another mainly for the fact that it's completely subjective and they often perform different roles. People have different opinions on what Pokemon is "better" and will argue until the death that one is superior to the other. The way I see it, they both perform different but similar roles, in that they are both pretty bulky in relation to the other Dragons. This means that both of them have a pretty easy time setting up their respective boosts, and can even afford to run more defensive sets (Stealth Rock Garchomp, Bulky DD Nite, etc).

    Like I said before, both of these have their benefits, and as a result will contribute in different ways to your team. Garchomp has Rough Skin making it a pretty good check against a lot of common physical attackers, such as Scizor and Terrakion. It deters your opponent from continually U-Turning out when hazards are up, while Garchomp in general deals with VoltTurn pretty nicely. Garchomp also has access to Stealth Rock, which is a great boon to offensive teams. Garchomp can setup Stealth Rock while still applying offensive pressure, meaning that you won't have trouble getting your hazards up. Garchomp is also immune to Thunder Wave, unlike Dragonite. This means Garchomp has set up a lot easier against defensive 'mons carrying Thunder Wave, such as Ferrothorn and Chansey. It's also worth noting that Garchomp's dual STAB is a lot more threatening than Dragonite's, having much fewer reliable switch-ins to Dragon Claw + Earthquake, and some of those do not appreciate a boosted move either.

    Dragonite on the other hand also has some access to some cool stuff that Garchomp doesn't. The main difference between the two is Multiscale, which is arguably the best ability in the game. Multiscale essentially gives Dragonite a free turn of setup when Stealth Rock isn't up, taking normal damage from super effective moves. This means Dragonite can run a much better defensive set, as Dragonite also has access to Thunder Wave and Roost, unlike Garchomp. Dragonite is also not Toxic Spikes weak, meaning Garchomp cannot setup that easy when Toxic Spikes are down, whereas Dragonite can. Another thing that sets Dragonite aside from other Dragons is priority in Extremespeed, which partly makes up for the lack of a worse dual STAB than Garchomp.

    I'd say that they are two of the best Dragons in OU, and both are pretty viable on all types of weather. Most sets won't directly benefit from weather, especially now Sand Veil is banned, but they definitely have their purposes on weather, such as Garchomp helping with Dragons for Sun Teams, or Dragonite using a set with Hurricane in Rain.
  10. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Will support Sr chomp have any sort of niche in the metagame? Or would it be too much of a waste of garchomp's abilities? He could run Sr+rocky helmet to heavily mess with u-turn to quickly build up damage but it seems worthless because you could just rip stuff up with +2 STABS. He could carry roar/dragon tail to be more like para shuffler dragonite, building up hazard+rough skin but it seems like it wastes too much of his offensive potential. I suppose he could run a standard set but with rocky helmet instead of lum/yache/LO to deter u-turn and priority while keeping his offensive presence.
  11. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    I'm starting to get the feeling that some of you are being moronic about Garchomp's power. He's fast, bulky, and strong, yes. But base 102 speed is not anywhere near as fast as it was, and by far Garchomp's strongest tool, Sand Veil, is being banned so now he's suddenly revenged by half the OU metagame.

    So many of you crying that he's going to break the metagame are ignoring accounts of people on the ladder and, more importantly, that Garchomp can only run one set at a time. If he is SubSD (which has been almost completely neutered unless you run Salac, but then he doesn't have Yache to block those dreadful Ice attacks), physically defensive Skarmory wins. If you play someone crazy enough to run Fire Blast or Fire Fang over Earthquake or Outrage, suddenly Heatran and Jirachi (especially in the rain) or Gyarados and damn near every Dragon in the tier checks him and destroys him.

    If he's a Choice set, you play around him with smart switching and prediction like we've been doing for a year and a half with faster or stronger Pokemon like Terrakion and Latios.

    If someone tries to buck the trend with a pure attacking Life Orb set, surprise surprise, Adamant Mamoswine threatens to OHKO with Ice Shard while +0 Garchomp never OHKOs Mamoswine without entry hazards. Of course, failing that there's always the most common Pokemon in the game currently, Genesect, who has a swift OHKO with Ice Beam on any non-Yache Chomp.

    EDIT: This post doesn't really apply to any page 3 posts, mostly page 2. When I went to work this morning it was still on page 2. Sorry if some of you feel attacked when I wasn't after you.
  12. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    While a set with Rocky Helmet, combined with its Rough Skin ability, is appealing, I am thinking of two problems; its lack of recovery (New sleep mechanics say hi to RestTalk!) and the fact that it does nothing against non-contact attacks. Not to mention, of course, that like StairFall said, this is a waste of its offensive potential. Wouldn't Garchomp itself die quickly to repeated U-Turns and other contact attacks?
  13. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Perhaps if you ran one of its offensive sets but simply with rocky helmet it wouldn't need the recovery, just a passive perk at the cost of no life orb. You get your offensive presence and a chance to double down or late game pseudo spinblock. Yes it does nothing against special attacks but most priority is physical and u-turn is physical so it would build up quickly. If nothing else it could have some situational utility in deterring stuff like <30% scizor from bullet punching you or tenta from spinning.
  14. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

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    While there's definitely an opportunity cost to a Rocky Helmet set, and the lack of recovery is annoying, I think it's definitely a possibility. Have a set of Sub/Dragon Claw/EQ/Dragon Tail, perhaps? I envision it playing like this:
    -Come in on a resisted/immune attack
    -sub on the switch
    -dragon tail as the opponent breaks the sub - they've taken hazards damage, dragon tail damage, and possible rough skin/helmet damage.
    -possibly repeat, depending on what dragon tail brings out.

    SR could probably fit into the moveset over Dragon Claw/Tail, if you wanted.
  15. Katakiri

    Katakiri Listen, Brendan...
    is a Pokemon Researcher

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    Garchomp and Moxiemence are going to be a delicious combo. Much like the Rayquaza-Garchomp combination in 4th Gen Ubers, due to sharing many of the same counters, Garchomp can clear a path for Salamence to sweep right through.

    Genesect can lure in free switches like Heatran on top of that--while breaking it's balloon and getting hazard damage on it--making Garchomp's work even easier.
  16. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Subs should never be used without recovery though, because then you can't heal off the damage and have a hard limit to the number of subs you can make. The best users of substitute are 'mons that can fully heal off the 25% after only one or two turns. Chomp can't do that with rocky helmet on, and leech seed support is out of the question because you're constantly phazing the opponent out. I still say that rough skin+rocky helmet works better on an offensive set where you might KO a weakened u-turn who hits you or punish priority (outside of ice shard and vacuum wave of course.)
  17. Ithilanor

    Ithilanor

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    It's not the greatest user of Sub in the world, but it's workable, I think. Hopefully you won't be taking many hits, and SR resistance is useful. There's also the possibility of Wish support.
  18. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    Max attack+Adamant Mamoswine with a Life Orb can still OHKO Garchomp.
    If Garchomp is carrying a Yache Berry, 2HKO.

    Chompie will OHKO Mamo with EQ after SR damage, though.

    Hello GRAVITY.
  19. Boondocker

    Boondocker

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    Fire Fang- Has a 10% chance to flinch and a 10% chance to burn the target. Both effects are independent and can occur simultaneously. Power 75 Acc 100

    Fire Punch- Deals damage and has a 10% chance to burn the target. Power 65 Acc 95

    Ok so can we stop saying that Fire Punch>Fire Fang? I personally think 10 power for a 10% flinch chance is a fair trade, and 95 accuracy is still great. Its not like Dragonite is OHKOing Skarm with Fire Punch anyways so what difference does it make? At least with flinching you can get in another hit before the opponent moves. Fire Punch is arguably better the Fire Fang, its not clearly better. I personally like Fire Fang since at +2 the power difference is less noticeable.
  20. FastFlygon

    FastFlygon

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    Wait what? Did you get those confused or something... Fire Punch should be 75 power 100 accuracy (rather than vice versa) and Fire Fang should be power 65 accuracy 95.
  21. StairFall

    StairFall

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    Wish support isn't as helpful on a sub shuffler though, you need to be able to stay in for longer periods of time and wish means you need to switch out to the wish user. You can probably abuse Chomp's bulk/resistances to make them last longer but that definitive limit to your number of subs is seriously off putting.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    Best set for Chomp has gotta be SDYache simply because it can destroy Genesect, Mamoswine, etc., stuff that normally beats it.

    [​IMG]
    Garchomp @ Yache Berry
    Trait: Rough Skin
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    IVs: 11 Def
    - Swords Dance
    - Outrage / Dragon Claw
    - Earthquake
    - Aqua Tail / Fire Fang

    Outrage or DClaw depending on if you prefer power vs. confusion, Aqua Tail if Rain team, Fire Fang if anything else. Beast set. IVs force Genesect to take an Atk boost instead of SAtk, meaning Chomp survives Ice Beam 100% of the time with around 30% health to spare.
  23. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

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    But stall is now about to be lowered into its grave.
  24. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    252Atk Life Orb Garchomp (Neutral) Earthquake vs 4HP/0Def Mamoswine (Neutral): 70% - 83% (255 - 301 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    252Atk Life Orb Garchomp (Neutral) Outrage vs 4HP/0Def Mamoswine (Neutral): 84% - 99% (307 - 361 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

    Both of these calcs have Life Orb on Garchomp, in which case Mamoswine OHKOs before he acts with LO Ice Shard.
  25. StairFall

    StairFall

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    This isn't exactly true, sure offence got another abuser but it doesn't occupy any sort of niche that makes stall impossible. If you have mence covered you probably have chomp coveted too. Chomp is powerful but it isn't anything new and certainly isn't as much of a monster as say terrakion is. Expanding the pool of potential offensive pokemon doesn't make stall pokemon any less viable, just means more for them to wall.

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