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Gen-NEXT development thread

Discussion in 'Pet Mods' started by Zarel, Dec 17, 2012.

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  1. Spica


    Feb 13, 2013
    With great status comes great responsibility: a case for thoroughgoing revision of primary status conditions

    I'm proposing to change status conditions in a way that should be seen as a re-balancing — to be judged as a collection of related proposals, not a list of free-standing ones. Some of these changes would be undoubtedly ridiculous in isolation, but I ask the reader to put aside painful memories of past annoyance at status conditions to consider their implementation holistically.

    The biggest change would be that primary (or durable) status conditions would no longer be mutually exclusive of one another. It would be possible to have poison, burn, paralysis, freeze, and sleep status all at the same time. Bearing in mind my prior admonition, the rest of the changes have the overall effect of weakening individual status conditions without abolishing their roles and uses. Impact on meta-game diversity, competitiveness, and the role of chance vs. skill will be discussed as I enumerate the changes.

    • Freeze

    The existing GenNext changes to freeze are incorporated with some minor clarifications. The two turn "freeze counter" does not reset upon switching out. The sleep counter does not decrement while a pokémon is frozen, nor does it take damage from burn or poison. Freeze status is checked, and the corresponding counter reduced, prior to checking other status.

    Justification: If the counter doesn't reset, you can exploit tactical opportunities and prediction to get through the 2 turns of freeze and make the pokémon useful again. This increases competitiveness by providing skillful players an opportunity for mitigation. Interaction between different status conditions has to work somehow, so it should work in the way that makes the most intuitive sense, unless that would be broken.

    • Sleep
    Putting a pokémon to sleep wakes up every other sleeping (but not Rest-ing) non-active pokémon on the same team; this replaces sleep clause. The sleep counter takes a uniform random value between 2 and 5, giving 1 to 4 turns of sleep rather than the existing 1 to 3. After a sleeping pokémon switches out, its sleep counter takes a new random value independent of the old one. When a sleeping pokémon is active, the controller of that pokémon is made aware (through a message under the move selections, like the "you are trapped" message) of the sleep counter's value, but the opponent is unaware of its value. That is, sleep gives an advantage of information to the controller of the sleeping pokémon. Sleep is the second status condition to be checked.

    Justification: This makes a lot more sense thematically than sleep clause, and it can be integrated with the game rules rather than existing as something separate. On its own, the change to waking up non-active pokémon instead of preventing sleep on the active pokémon boosts sleep's power somewhat by allowing a sleep move user to retain momentum against an opponent who switches. However, giving the controller of the sleeping pokémon the information advantage is huge. A large part of sleep's frustration comes from not knowing if you will wake up in time to do anything or if you should switch out of it, etc. With this change, you have actionable information that you can use to adjust your strategy. Part of the blind luck is replaced with mind-games, since the opponent facing a sleeping pokémon will have to try to get inside its controller's head. I consider this an elegant way to reduce sleep's power because it does so without undermining the nature of the sleep status, but rather it enables the player suffering from it to deal with that appropriately.

    • Paralysis
    A pokémon can't be "fully paralyzed" on consecutive turns. The chance to be unable to move is 25% as before but 0% when the pokémon was unable to move on the previous turn.

    Justification: This fits with the overall trend of reducing the impact of individual status and also prevents the worst sort of "hax" that can happen through paralysis.

    • Burn

    Burn causes a pokémon to lose 6.25% Max HP each turn, down from 12.5%. The Attack reduction remains unchanged.

    Justification: Burn would still be plenty powerful even with this change, since the attack drop is more important. If the damage output were not reduced here, stacking burn and poison could get a little ridiculous.

    • Poison
    Ordinary poison causes a pokémon to lose 6.25% Max HP each turn, same as burn. Toxic poison remains unchanged. If a pokémon has ordinary poison and it would be hit with toxic poison, the toxic poison replaces the previous ordinary poison condition.

    Justification: You may be thinking "Why nerf poison, the weakest status condition?" The answer is that poison gains the most from the ability to stack status conditions. Whereas there was previously an opportunity cost to causing poison, because you would lose the ability to inflict a more dangerous status, poison would lose this counter-intuitive protective aspect. These changes also make toxic poison strictly better than normal poison. You may think "Why NOT nerf toxic poison, when it's so strong already?" and the answer is that the MOVE Toxic should get the nerf (see below).

    Move & Ability specific changes:

    • Poison Gas
    Perfect accuracy ordinary poison.

    Justification: Come now, how exactly do you MISS with POISON GAS? Outdoors in a really stiff breeze? This helps make ordinary poison somewhat more useful.

    • PoisonPowder
    100% accurate ordinary poison.

    Justification: to make ordinary poison somewhat more reliable / useful.

    • Toxic
    90% accurate, inflicts toxic poison 2/3 of the time and ordinary poison 1/3. That is: 60% toxic, 30% psn, 10% miss.

    Justification: Reduces the power of toxic, in line with its ability to stack with other status and to supersede regular poison, without introducing the excessive variance that would come from making it less accurate. If you need the target badly poisoned but roll ordinary poison you could always try the move again, since toxic poison would override regular poison.

    • Poison Point

    60% chance to poison against a contact move

    Justification: Weak ability gets a boost.

    • Poison Touch

    60% chance to poison when using a contact move

    Justification: Weak ability gets a boost.

    • Psycho Shift

    Transfers all status ailments.

    Justification: This maintains the power of a situational status counter.

    • Shed Skin

    1/3 chance to heal a single random status every turn.

    Justification: This ability is already good with rest, so there's little need to make it stronger.

    • Effect Spore

    30% chance of poison, 20% chance of paralysis, 10% chance of sleep, calculated independently. That is, check each separately so the pokémon may get more than one status from it.

    Justification: Weak ability gets a boost and shows off the new overlapping status system.

    • Heatproof

    Immune to burn damage, but not to the attack drop. Perhaps this replaces the previous effect? Do we really want Bronzong to have 0 weaknesses? If you remove the filter effect against fire type moves, you could make Heatproof simply mean "immune to burn."

    • Magic Guard

    In addition to its existing effect, the pokémon can be afflicted with only one status condition at a time.

    Justification: This preserves the role of Magic Guard users as status absorbers. You may wonder why not the same thing for Guts and Quick Feet, but those benefit greatly from poison and burn damage being reduced to 6.25%.

    • Toxic Boost, Poison Heal

    In addition to their existing effects, the pokémon cannot become afflicted with new status conditions as long as it is poisoned.

    Justification: This actually boosts the abilities somewhat, since they can't be blocked from taking effect in the turn before Toxic Orb activates.

    • Flare Boost

    In addition to its existing effect, the pokémon cannot become afflicted with new status conditions as long as it is burned.

    Justification: See above.

    Overall Justification:

    Status under this system actually has less opportunity to spoil your plans with a huge dose of pure luck. The stacking of status conditions creates more synergy of defensive strategies, teams and move-sets, increasing the power of stall a bit. Status has many counters, and while this system arguably makes it harder to play around status without a counter, it doesn't weaken the counters any. There are ways of countering status that fit with defensive, offensive, mixed and stallish teams. Overall, I think clerics and status absorbers would become more of a team-building consideration, but that could be a good thing, promoting overall diversity.

    Need I point out that this system makes a lot more sense than the existing one? Why should it be impossible to poison a sleeping pokémon? Should someone have told poor Hamlet: "Your father's ghost cannot possibly be truthful, because everyone knows that sleeping people are immune to all toxins." The same goes for all the other status combinations.

    Finally, GF meddles with status at least once a generation, so it's certainly plausible that they would continue to do so.

    I hope this post is food for thought, because in all honesty it took some time to think through and write it.
  2. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Aug 16, 2011
    For the record, I haven't been able to think of a change to Vital Throw that doesn't turn it into Focus Punch or Circle Throw or something like that. I definitely want to keep its flavor so it's not just a generic attack.
  3. ChaosAkita


    May 20, 2006
    I also want it to retain its current flavor, just that it needs to be buffed somehow. Improving Vital Throw and maybe giving it a unique ability would also buff Hariyama and Throh.
  4. tehy

    tehy Banned deucer.

    Aug 16, 2010
    Why not just make Vital Throw, say, 120 BP? Its niche would be a really powerful fighting-type attack that doesn't slash your defenses or attack (And doesn't miss heavily). And if it was still totally accurate, that's a plus.

    Or it could be, say, 100 BP and has a 50% chance to raise attack, like a much better meteor mash that forces you to go last (Which would be lame but still)
  5. ChaosAkita


    May 20, 2006
    I noticed Carnivine's ability hasn't been updated. Is this intentional?
  6. Clafairy


    Jul 13, 2012
    I have some suggestions...

    ~ I think Mew should get the ability Trace. With Mew's well balanced stats and great move pool, along with addition, I feel will make Mew a great utility counter. Also with Mew being the ancestor to all other pokemon (well Kanto wise at lest) and having all their DNA inside it, being able to change its ability to match its opponent, makes sense flavor wise.

    ~ Bronzong should get Heal Bell. It fits its defensive nature, and its a giant bell!

    ~ I know Flygon already has a new ability Compoundeyes, but I don't really think its that useful since other then Stone Edge there aren't really any low accuracy moves that Flygon uses, and there really isn't much reasons to use Flygon over Garchomp. Which is why I feel Flygon should get Tinted Lens. I know this suggestion sounds outrageous, but with Flygons low attack (base 100 vs. base 130+ of the other OU physical Dragons), and no way to boost its attack outside of Choice Band and Life orb unlike the other OU dragons, I feel would keep this balanced while being able throw out unresistant dragon moves would give Flygon a pretty big Niche over the other OU dragons.

    ~ This last one is more of a question, for pokemon with moves that are only available by events, would I have to stick with the Natures and Abilites given by the event? For Example if I wanted to use Raikou with Weather Ball and Aura Sphere in gen-NEXT, could I use Volt Absorb with a Timid Nature, or do I have to stick with Pressure and Rash?
  7. PureQuestion


    Nov 20, 2012
    Flygon can boost its attack with Hone Claws, but even that is pretty sub par.
  8. Mari


    Aug 8, 2008
    The accuracy boost (not the base power boost) should also affect the move Extrasensory.

    Ideas for signature moves:
    Mawile: Iron Head (70 Base Power)
    Luvdisc: Water Pulse (100 % Confusion)
    Grumpig: Psybeam (100 % Confusion)

    Various ideas
    Chatter: 90 BP, 30 % confusion

    Double team: A variant of Substitute: creates a Substitute with 1 HP - does not reduce the own HP. Fails when already have a substitute, no priority like Protect. (easily countered by multi-hit moves)
    Power Gem: 90 BP, ignores opponent's special defense boost
  9. JamesSonofBaboonzo


    Sep 5, 2012
    I feel that a better way to go about buffing Flygon would be to add Dragon Dance and Dragon Rush to its movepool. With Compoundeyes, Dragon Rush would reach 97.5 accuracy, giving Flygon a Dragon STAB attack that is both strong and reliable, something no other physical dragons have. And unlike other Dragon Dancers, Flygon has a great secondary STAB, that gives it near perfect neutral coverage, missing only Bronzong and Skarmory. I feel those changes would be enough for Flygon to find itself a niche among the other dragon types in GenNext.
  10. sonicfan7895


    Jan 4, 2013
    A few suggestions on some signature moves, and some slight justification to them:

    • Golem can have Rollout as its Signature move, after all, it is a giant boulder.
    • Samurott can have Razor Shell as its signature move (pioneered the move).
    • Metagross can have Meteor Mash as its signature (first known Pokemon to use it; besides, it fits with Metagross).
    • Exploud with Hyper Voice as signature (first known evolutionary line ever to use it).
    • Rampardos can have Head Smash as signature (it pioneered the move).
    • Klinklang can have Gear Grind as one signature move, and get added boosts from signature Gear Shift, like +1 Def / SDef as well as +2 Atk and +2 Spd.
    • Sneasel can have Beat Up as signature, and all of the Pokemon who deal damage with this move get the 1.5x damage boost.
  11. Chaoswalker


    Mar 20, 2010
    Ok, so seeing this I thought maybe my favorite pokemon ever, Flygon, would become really awesome... or at least OU. Sadly, compound eyes leaves Flygon as... pretty much exactly the same.

    Flygon is the Desert Spirit. How he never got Sand Stream I'm still curious of.
    Even so, Sand Force, Sand Rush, and Sand Veil would all be extremely flavorful to a pokemon who's pokedex entries constantly state he kicks up and flies around enveloped in sand.
  12. nyttyn

    nyttyn Nueeeeeeeeeeeeen!
    is a Forum Moderatoris a CAP Contributor

    Sep 8, 2010
    What if: Vital Throw is upgraded to 80 BP, and acts like a reverse close combat - instead of nerfing your defense and special defense, it perhaps buffs them. Or buffs your attack.

    There are very few moves which boost your power and attack at the same time, and with Vital Throw's negative priority, it would give a very decent reason to use the move.
  13. NARFNra


    Apr 30, 2010
    Wouldn't the +1 Atk/+1 Def Fighting move model almost invalidate Bulk Up and Curse, though? Sure, Bulk Up doesn't have negative priority, but almost everything with Vital Throw has low speed (the fastest possible user atm is Mienshao who'll pretty much never use it and Pinsir at 85 base speed, and below that it's speed<65) and all of them get Bulk Up.

    On the other hand, I suppose it does have low priority and it's not like GF doesn't make strictly better counterparts, but it seems kind of a weird upgrade.

    A Cosmic Power model would be kind of cool though, and could make some interesting changes to some lesser used pokemon. The negative priority would be useful to prevent something nasty like Vital Throw Mienshao from abusing def boosts + regenerator (though it could naturally pull it off) and at the same time would make things like Throh and Hariyama more viable as tanks due to being able to both boost and damage at the same time even without reliable healing. Restalk Payback Vital Throw or something, maybe?
  14. HabibsHotDogs


    Apr 21, 2009
    I was going to write a more detailed reply about gen-NEXT but I am no longer bothered, but here are a few suggestions that I think would be great to consider:

    Shell armour: Reduce power of contact moves by 50%, fails if user moves first

    Flavour: If you are attacked before you make a move, you are withdrawn in the shell, if you come out of the shell to make a move, you will be hit for regular damage, works on switching in but not when being pursuited.
    -Makes Torterra a viable physical tank
    -Makes Lapras a more viable dragon check

    Persistance: Powers up repeated attacks against same pokemon (1.5x, capped at 2.25x)

    Flavour: gives some lesser used pokemon that get this ability the chance to crack the walls that switch into them (assuming proper prediction). Also helps deal with recovery stalling by pokemon such as Gliscor/Chansey, good way to prevent stall without making bulky pokemon useless.
    -Can be learnt by pokemon such as Pinsir

    Shadow Cloak: Prevents the pokemon being hit until it makes a move

    Flavour: After the pokemon does ANY type of move, it is vulnerable to being hit until it or the opponent switches out again (vulnerable on all turns after the first), will be great on certain pokemon, I feel its most suitable as a dark type exclusive, in order to keep balance, does not work when pokemon switches in.
    -Can make Weavile a more reliable dragon check (and multipurpose pursuit mind gamer) as it would be able to ignore an extremespeed, she doesn't become broken as she is rather fast and can't get the ability to kick in most of the time.
    -Houndoom can use a slow work up to set up on a faster sweeper and later sucker punch to get the jump on them, can still use other moves (Fire Blast/Dark pulse etc) against slower pokemon that switch in

    Shadow Strike: Powers up moves if pokemon moves first (1.3x)

    Flavour: Does not take effect if a pokemon switches in on the turn (as they move first, technically). An alternative or complement to Shadow Cloak.. works great on Weavile and Houndoom above as well as Spiritomb (the most shadowy pokemon I can think of!), especially when they all have priority!!
    -Weavile, Houndoom and Spiritomb can get a great buff with this!

    Keen Eye: Gradually improves accuracy (+1 per turn)

    Flavour: Hoot hoot with a much more accurate hypnosis the 2nd turn is pretty cool, Swanna with an accurate hurricane is cool :)

    Magma Armour Absorbs a water/ice attack once, turning into shell armour (+1 SpDef after absorbing a water attack, immunity to freeze)

    Flavour: Similar to what you have already done, except gives the pokemon a special defence boost!
    -Gives magma armour pokemon a niche

    Metagross: Learns Psycho boost - Synergises with the clear body buff and gives him a niche with a unique mixed attacking set

    more to come when I have time
  15. grrgrrgrr1000


    Nov 14, 2011
    I really love these kinds of threads, and what you are doing here. Here are my ideas:

    General Changes
    - Stealth Rock nerf. This move gains a stacking nature Spikes has. After one layer, the base dammage of SR is 1/16. After two layers, it's 1/12. After three layers, it is what it is right now after one layer: 1/8. The eventual dammage output remains the same, but you have to waste three turns of effort.
    - Hidden Power: This move can eather be special of physical, depending on your sets of IVs, increasing the versatility of this move. (We may as well fix the power if it's necessary)
    - Perma Weather Nerf: The weather summoned with your ability lasts until five turns after the summoner has switched out (8 turns with rock attached). Please don't give an inherent ability of summoning permaweather with the move to anything where it doesn't make sense on (I'm looking at Phione, Probopass and Cryogonall)!
    - Levitators: Many things that float on the ground get "lv" next to their typing, meaning they are levitating and therefore to ground (hence "intrisics"). Anything that has levitate upon tranferring gains another ability. Other things should gain "lv" as well, such as Froslass, Glalie, Dusknoir and Mew. (Speaking of wich, I would love to replace some abilities, and I think GF will do this at some point, as they can't keep coming with retarded ways of creating ability slots)
    - Type machup change: We have to watch out not overdoing it, but I guess everybody can agree that Ice should resist Grass! -Type change: The only type change that really needs to happen is Zoroark becoming Dark/Psychic.
    - Double Team: This move gains a failure rate, depending on what stage your evasion is (chance of succeeding=1/(1+evasion stage)).

    Species related changes:
    - Torkoal/Heatmor: White smoke gains a distinct buff in protecting the team from getting their stats lowered untill three turns after the bearer switched out. (If this also includes self induced drops, this ability becomes really good)
    - Rotom-A: I don't really like the idea of giving secundary special moves (especially if some are worthless), but Rotom-S gets his special move replaced to Hurricane. (I think we can make an exception here to #2, and saying Rotom-S converts to it's regular form upon transfarring). As far as the abilities go, all alternate forms should gain Adaptability.
    - Zangoose: Toxic Boost not only boosts his Attack when poisoned; it also boosts his Speed! Zangoose really can go rampant now!
    - Drifblim: Flare Boost gains a similar change.
    - Reshiram (and Kyurem-W): Screw unresisted Stab coverage! That gimmick wasn't that great anyway. Turboblaze should boost Spacial Attack by TWO stages when hit by a Fire move, and nullifies it's dammage. This gives them also a way of boosting their Satk (although Reshiram should learn Calm Mind as well)
    - Zekrom (and Kyurem-B): Terravoltage gains a similar change. Be carefull using Volt Switch when Zekrom is on the opponent's team!
    - Genesect: Drives aren't held items anymore. When you want to change Genesect's form, you have to use the drive on him. The only difference is the typing of techno blast (no type difference of the forms themselves, the sprites are not distinct enough for that), meaning it's nothing but a gimmick.
    - Meloetta: Meloetta-P shouldn't have seperate base stats; when Meloetta changes into Meloetta-P, the Atk and Satk swap (I'm talking about the actual stats), and the speed is 50% higher.
    - Regigigas: Crush Grip should ignore the attack halvation caused by Slow Start, meaning it can hit hard right of the bat.
    - Hitmonlee/Hitmontop: Rolling Kick can also be used as a spinning move (it should maybe get a power boost).
    - Butterfree/Beautifly: I don't like the idea of Gotham Wing. I'd rather have a Golden Butterfly Wing (better name needed), which boosts Satk, Sdef and Spd by 50% on the butterflies. (not on volcorona of course)
    - Beedrill: If we boost Butterfree, we have to boost Beedrill as well, haven't we? Beedrill gains a Golden Angle, which boosts the Atk, Def and Spd by 50%. (not sure if vespiquen deserves it as well). BTW, we can ignore Dustox, as he was supposed to be the deformed one of the two.
    - Vespiquen: The three signature moves gain synergy. If Vespiquen knows the three of them, her army is twice as huge, meaning all of them will be used twice (not in fractions).
    -Arceus: His ability disables him from using non-plates. However, any special form gains the strongest accurate special move (with no drawbacks) of it's type as heart scale move.
    -Chatot: Chatter's confuse rate is gone. However, the power of that move can vary between 60, 120 and 180.
    -Cherrim: Flower Gift boosts ALL STATS except Spd by 50% under the sun. You'd better ensure it isn't sunny when an opposing Cherrim is out.
    -Miltank: Milk Drink heals 100% if you hold Moomoo Milk
    -Pikachu: Light Ball also doubles it's speed. Volt tackle's should have a 50% paralyse rate.

    Some minor changes:
    -Sheer Force:e No longer works differently with life orb. However, if the user holds a King's Rock, there won't be a gained 10% flinch rate, but SF will just boost ALL moves instead.
    -Reckless: Boosts ANY move with a negative effect to the user by 30%. If the user holds a Life Orb, all moves will be affected.
    -Hyper Cutter: The attack stat cannot be lowered by any means. Haze/Clear Smog cannot cancel out attack boosts.
    -Rock Head: Also prevents Life Orb recoil, as well as Iron Barbs/Rough Skin/Spiky Helmet recoil.
    -Type resist berries: Can also kick in when the attack isn't super effective. -Ice Body: Becomes an Ice version of Dry Skin (makes perfect sense) -Reaper Clothes: Reduces dammage of opposing Ghost moves by 33% when held by a Ghost type.
    -Dragon Scale: Similar for Dragon types -Pay Day: This move's power is boosted to 65, which doubles when you hold the Amulet Coin. Dark Typed.
    -Mega Punch/Mega Kick: Fighting Typed, of course. The former's power is lifted to 100. (making it more mega-ish)
    -Incenses: No longer a carbon copy of another item. Instead, it boosts both defenses of the respective baby by 100%. (too bad Mantyke doesn't have a steel counterpart...)
    -Wild Charge: becomes an electric Flare Blitz. Volt Tackle gains a 50% paralyse rate to make it distinct.
    -Submission: Should become a Fighting Double-Edge
    -Big Pecks: Rock Head Clone that also halves SR dammage. (the current effect is gone)
    -Cross Chop/Stone Edge: the accuracy becomes 90%. Aeroblast/Spacial Rend gain a Crit rate of +2 to make them more legendary and distinct. -Hyper beam and Friends: they don't disable you from switching out next turn. Roar of Time's power should be buffed to 190.
    -Sharpen shouldn't only boost attack, but also should make any contact move on the user causing recoil dammage.

    Movepool updates: -Rapid Spin should be given to Crobat (it can act as a propellar), Deoxys (Deoxys-S specifically looks like a bearer of it to me), Klinklang line and Solrock.
    -Mach Punch to anything that learns bullet punch by breading (especially lucario - how can a fighting type with such a legendary movepool miss that one?)
    -Electivire should gain Close Combat and Mach Punch by breeding, to update his outdated Fighting movepool.
    -Entei should gain Crunch, Earthquake and Superpower.
    -Speaking of which, the legendary beast should gain Moonlight, as they are nocturnal animals.
    -Reshiram and Zekrom should get Superpower, Hammer Arm, Earthquake and Calm Mind.
    -The legendary birds should gain Work Up, as the nonlegendary ones get it.
    -Quiver Dance on Lumineon and maybe also on Oddish.
  16. grrgrrgrr1000


    Nov 14, 2011
    ^Crap, the enters don't seem to work

    EDIT: Now it does!
  17. Chaoswalker


    Mar 20, 2010
    OH. MAI. GAWD. Wider Rapid Spin distribution for sure.
    Electrode: It's a frick'n ball
    Omastar: Spiky shell doesn't do rapid spin? Yeah, ok whatever.
    Crobat: Fast and looks quite spin worthy
    Bellosom: It could spin dance....?
    Shuckle: Shells are good for spinning
    Magcargo: Another round shell pokemon.
    Miltank: For a mon that's known for spamming roll out, it doesn't spin much.
    Castform: It has that round+center of gravity combination
    Metagross: Resiliant and symetric in four directions.
    Drifiblim: Round with tassle thingies
    Scolipede: How do these rolling pokemon get denied Rapid Spin?
    Escavalier: I feel like armored pokemon should be able to clear hazards by spinning
    Ferrothorn: As much as it doesn't need anything to make it better, it makes sense
    Klingklang: It's gears. Really.
    Chandelure: Round with long arm thingies.

    I probably made a stretch here and there, but I'm sure some of those are valid. I prefer more rapid spin to a new hazard clearing move because it makes it spin blockable, another layer of strategy to hazards play. If there was another hazard removing move it also should have an immunity like electric, fighting, or ghost.
  18. NARFNra


    Apr 30, 2010
    Err... What makes more sense to summon permanent hail than a giant snowflake? Not to mention, Phione is the spawn of what is essentially the god of the sea; it stands to reason permaweather could come from it. Plus, forcing the move to make it permanent makes it interesting as it takes a bit longer for them to start up their power.

    Not really sure why Zoroark's going to want that; note that this project is meant to feel like an actual gen boost, and we only changed types once.

    Don't you mean Gossamer Wing? Giving them the boost innately seems kind of worrisome, Butterfree in particular would be even worse of a menace considering the boosts Gossammer gives atm; not to mention, negating the weaknesses makes them so much more usable.

    Not really; Butterfree got Quiver Dance in BW but Beedrill got essentially nothing. It would be interesting if Beedrill got a counterpart boost of some sort, though. Besides, Beedrill got a buffed Twinneedle... maybe it could get an item that gives it a very high crit rate so that it can abuse Sniper?

    Are you saying that Vespiquen should get the ability to boost to +2/+2, heal itself for ALL of its HP, and get 180 base STAB due to double 90 damage?

    Isn't that a bit large of a healing amount? Sure, it doesn't have passive recovery, but full healing? Combine that with Miltank's above average speed stat and Miltank could pull off a sub/protect/milk drink/??? set with toxic spikes support on the lines of stallrein...

    This seems more than a little questionable. ALL moves?

    Very little would use it anyway. Almost every poke with sharpen doesn't want to boost attack, and has far better options.

    Klinklang(and sorta Solrock) I can see; Deoxys and Crobat, however? Doesn't that seem a little... out of hand? They don't NEED it. It seems kind of over the top.

    Giving Quiver Dance to Oddish might be more than a little odd. I could see it on Bellossom exclusively though, even if Liligant would outclass it. Lumineon could definitely use it though.

    --- also ---
    Electrode, I agree with. Omastar though, seems like it already has good enough roles. Crobat I can't see doing it. Everything that Rapid Spins at the moment is pretty much implied to do it on the ground, Crobat has no non-flying limbs and couldn't get up the momentum sideways anyway. Bellossom is just, no. Shuckle is so slow that the idea of it spinning is rather ridiculous, same for Magcargo. Miltank I could see, Castform is a free floating cloud-like being who reallyshouldn't be spinning. Metagross isn't fast enough or nimble enough, Drifblim is a blimp and they don't turn fast, Scolipede can roll but it's not the same type of rotation as spinning, Escavalier is incredibly slow and not nimble, Ferrothorn isn't as similar to Forretress as you'd think (the vines would ruin his attempts to increase momentum), klinklang makes sense, Chandelure is once again slow and not dynamic enough to spin.

    I honestly think we don't need that many spinners?
  19. Chaoswalker


    Mar 20, 2010
    Oh, I don't care which ones get added, I just want options. I almost exclusively play Rain teams because Tentacruel is the only spinner I trust. I look up rapid spinners, look at slection, and feel really trapped. How many spinners are there in OU anyway? Maybe 5? And one of those is Cloyster.
  20. NARFNra


    Apr 30, 2010
    In that case, I would suggest we find a good balance between my thoughts and yours: These are the ones I think both make a lot of sense and can pull it off.

    Electrode - It's a sphere known for moving extremely fast. It already gets Rollout, but Electrode is faster than the other users and thus makes a bit more sense.
    Omastar - I mentioned last time I didn't really think this worked, but if Cloyster can do it I suppose it makes sense.
    Miltank - Similar to Electrode, for Rollout reasons.
    Metagross - Last time I said it didn't really see fast or nimble enough, but it is true that the thing can get agility and pull off odd tricks like that. The main reason for this is honestly that being able to Rapid Spin would make Metagross have another boost to its usability, and it does make a little sense. More than Hitmonchan, lol.
    Scolipede - While I personally don't feel it has the shape to pull off a Rapid Spin, it would be an interesting candidate for a spinner.
    Klinklang - Definitely.

    Additionally, may I suggest...

    Rotom - This may seem odd, but what if non-formed Rotom had a unique attack and it was Rapid Spin?
  21. sonicfan7895


    Jan 4, 2013
    Personally, I can not only see Scolipede using Rapid Spin, but I can also see Whirlipede using Rapid Spin too, after all it DOES look like a wheel...

    What I don't understand is why Muddy Water isn't Swampert's signature move? It is the first Pokemon to use it after all. :evan:

    An idea just came up in my head; all of the signature attacks for the starters (Blast Burn, Hydro Cannon, and Frenzy Plant) should get a little boost too. Ever since that they got a little buff with the Auto-Critical Hit, I think that they should have at least 100 BP when on a starter of their respective type. Plus S.T.A.B. and Life Orb (or Choice Specs), and you've got a monster. Also, I had a couple of ideas for moves to add to Rotom's forms, including its non-appliance form (all of these ideas are for the sake of the buff ideas for Adaptability for Rotom's Forms, including its non-appliance form):

    Regular Rotom: Curse, Zap Cannon
    Frost: Icy Wind, Hail, and Aurora Beam (Glaciate is a possibility, but I'm having second-thoughts)
    Wash: Scald
    Heat: Fire Blast, Flamethrower
    Fan: Aeroblast (Possibility)
    Mow: Leaf Tornado, Synthesis, Spore, Sleep Powder, Stun Spore, Razor Leaf

    Raichu should have Sig Shock Wave, since it is the first Pokemon to use it as we know (Lt. Surge's Raichu in FireRed/LeafGreen).

    Dunsparce should also have Coil, since it is based off of the tsuchinoko (which is a type of snake).

    Terrakion should have Head Smash in its plethora of Rock-type moves. It may be one of the most useful Rock-type Pokemon to incorporate this move.
  22. DoesntKnowHowToPlay


    Dec 9, 2011
    There was a hack that gave it a 50% chance to knock off the target's item, which I thought was rather interesting. I don't expect any of its current users to appreciate it much other than Throh, however, and since the power level of 5th gen is a bit higher it probably wouldn't hurt anything to make it 100% Knock Off.

    why don't we just cut to the chase and give it huge power and shell smash
    (not to mention the justified tweak makes head smash pointless on it)
  23. ElectivireRocks

    ElectivireRocks Banned deucer.

    Nov 12, 2011
    Most of the ideas on the last page are utterly terrible both competitive- and flavor-wise.
  24. Chaoswalker


    Mar 20, 2010
    I think one of the biggest considerations is who would actually get better for it. For example, Metagross would move up from the bottom of OU if he could spin around his hard metal self. Miltank, with it's passable bulk and milk drink recovery could become a viable long lasting spinner. Regular Rotom allready has many possible functions, and rapid spin could make it's bulky set even more supportive, or maybe open things up for being an offensive spinner like Starmie.
  25. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Aug 16, 2011
    Vital Throw has significantly worse distribution than Bulk Up (in fact, nothing in OU gets it), so it's okay for it to completely outclass Bulk Up.

    My current idea, though, is actually:

    70 base power, -3 priority.

    If you're not hit by an attacking move this turn, +2 Atk and breaks through Protect/Detect.

    NEXT buffs Blastoise and Cryogonal, although Cryogonal still shouldn't be used outside of a Hail team.

    But the Scald change makes defensive Water-types like Blastoise useful in sun, too. I'll figure out some way to nerf Excadrill and bring it down if you want an offensive spinner, too.

    The Rock Throw buff would make Landorus, Probopass, and possibly Shuckle decent for getting rid of rocks specifically.

    You also shouldn't forget that SR's been nerfed.

    Really, hazards should be much less threatening in NEXT than in OU. I'm not going to nerf them any more than they've already been (although that might happen as a side effect of buffing existing spinners).

    So just to make it clear: I have no plans to increase Rapid Spin's distribution at this time.
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