1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Gen-NEXT development thread

Discussion in 'Pet Mods' started by Zarel, Dec 17, 2012.

  1. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,854
    I already nerfed Stealth Rock. I don't plan on nerfing it further.

    No. That there are differences between Physical and Special attacks is intentional.

    This is the SECOND time you've suggested something I've already done. At this point, I'm pretty sure you haven't even read the NEXT readme at all.

    Yes, because Politoed and Ninetales make so much sense as weather summoners. :|

    NARFNra already pointed out why Phione and Cryogonal make sense. Probopass was just the best sand-themed pokemon I could think of.

    This is the THIRD time you've suggested something I've already done.

    I think I've said this before, but I don't plan on giving levitation to anything that doesn't already have Levitate.

    I've already explicitly said that I will not make any type chart changes, and the manifesto itself explicitly says "No typing changes".

    ..I'm five items down the list, and most of these things are either things I've already changed or things I've explicitly said I won't change.

    I'm just going to stop right here because it's ridiculously obvious you haven't read anything about what NEXT is about.
  2. NARFNra

    NARFNra

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2010
    Messages:
    81
    Hmm, interesting. It's not as risky as Focus Punch due to being able to still do damage if you aren't hit(assuming I'm reading it correctly and the last part is the only conditional section), but at the same time rewards you for being able to use it correctly and would theoretically work quite well with Sub. In return, it's not as strong by far. However, being able to break through protection is always nice.

    I like that idea.
  3. Spica

    Spica

    Joined:
    Feb 13, 2013
    Messages:
    10
    Thinking about this, the fact that Excadrill has 3 good to decent abilities (as opposed to one distinctive one that could be targeted like Justified) and makes use of fairly common moves (rendering awkward anything like the Volcarona Quiver Dance solution) really leaves only the option of enhancing its counters. Here are a few ideas along those lines:

    • Salt Spray
    This new ability for water types would activate on switch-in (parallel to intimidate) to afflict any steel type on the field with a one-sided perish song. This prevents a SD sweep by Excadrill, targeting it as a Steel type setup sweeper. The flavour is of course related to corrosion.

    • Fouling
    This ability for water types would make steel types move last within their priority bracket while the pokémon is active. This deals with Sand Rush capably. The flavour is related to barnacles and other marine life that accumulate on metal surfaces of ships and slow them down.

    • Iron Sand
    A hold item that allows the Electric moves of Electric types to hit ground type pokémon and gives those Electric moves +1 priority during a sandstorm. Magnezone would be the most obvious user.

    Not meaning to sound importunate, but any comment on the overlapping status condition proposal?
  4. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2012
    Messages:
    206
    I don't know that I'd agree; Sand Rush is the ability that makes Excadrill broken. nerfing that would probably do a pretty damn good job keeping it manageable.

    Nerfing the weather speed boosts in general might be wise, given the similar Drizzle+Swiftswim ban...

    Dropping Sand Rush/Swift Swim/Chlorophyll(Chlorophyll basically purely for consistency) would probably make them significantly more manageable and could probably allow Excadrill to come down from ubers and the drizzle + swift swim ban to go away. Honestly, they're already heavily nerfed, considering weather is no longer permanent.
  5. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    716
    Changing it to a 1.5x or even 1.3x boost might make these abilities less fearsome, but still useful.
    Speeds of top users:
    50%: Excadrill at 132, Kingdra at 127, Venusaur at 120
    40%: Excadril at 123, Kingdra at 119, Venusaur at 112
    30%: Excadrill at 114, Kingdra at 110.5, Venusaur at 104

    It may be a case by case matter. Chlorophyll may not even need the de-buff.
  6. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,854
    As others have mentioned, Sand Rush is what makes it Uber. Nerfing it down to 1.5x makes it outsped by a lot of fast scarfers, such as scarf Terrakion.

    It's unclear if this is necessary, since currently Castform/Probopass are the only sources of permasand, and sand otherwise receives relatively few weather-related buffs.
  7. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    28
    Zarel, I DID read the README (doesn't mean I know it by heart), otherwise I wouldn't know about these three, along with Cherrim and Castform being permaweather inducers (by moves).
    The SR thing I said is an alternatetive to your idea, doesn't mean I don't know yours. (sure, the 1/4-on-flying-but-1/8-on-anything-else is also interesting).
    Same goes to permaweather inducing ability nerf (even though my idea is hardly any different to yours; the only difference is that it won't white out if the user is on the field).
    On the third "already changed" thing, I referred to your idea by saying "hence intrinsics". (I was only specifying it).
    Also, in the readme, you said "no typing changes without strong justification", which is something different form "no typing changes" (You have probably changed it thoughout the forum, but I don't remember everything). Personally, I find Psychic really a typing belonging to Zoroark, since Zoroark uses psychic power and confuses people by making illusions. (it is competetively a mixed bag, since it gives him a double weakness to bug, but it eleminates his Fighting weakness).
  8. NARFNra

    NARFNra

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2010
    Messages:
    81
    Yes, but strong justification =/= You could see it.

    Or should we make Fire/Dragon Charizard and Water/Dragon Gyarados because they look like dragons and Lance uses them? You can't just make a change like that without severe justificiation, and "changing his weaknesses" and "it fits him" doesn't work at all when Game Freak made him a Dark pokemon in the first place.

    Also: Zoroark can't even learn the move Psychic, but stuff like Ariados and Venomoth can. The only damaging Psychic move he gets is Extrasensory, which is an egg move, and everything else is a non-damaging move with wide distribution. It just doesn't make much sense.
  9. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,854
    My idea of "strong justification" isn't "because it makes more sense", I mean specifically a change that doesn't constitute Game Freak "changing their mind". Ever since gen 2, Game Freak has never done anything that constitutes "changing their mind" with regards to stats, typing, type chart, and abilities. The only typing change is Rotom formes: formes that previously were the same type but are now different types. But they didn't change their mind on what the base forme should be.

    So strong justification is something like making Cherrim-Sunny to be Grass/Fire, which isn't "changing their mind" because the base form is still pure Grass.

    This is what it means for NEXT to be a "conservative" mod, because it flat-out refuses to change anything that Game Freak wouldn't.
  10. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    28
    THIS. Anyway, let's review the criteria:

    1. no base stat changes
      How much I'd like to see some, it's safe to say that this one is true.
    2. no removing from movepool
      This all depends on whether or not it's possible to transfer. Even then, it's not entirely true (not all Tauros can learn Body Slam, for instance). Also, if HMs have to be forgotten, Surf Pikachu has to be rereleased over and over.
    3. no removing from ability distribution
      While that has been true so far, GF really has to do this at some point. Otherwise some mons might eventually have like 50 ability slots, which would be absurd. Or they will get an evolution, just for a new ability (already happened once: I'm looking at Rhyperior). Also, many non-Hoenn pokes where somewhat neglected during the first ability distribution: most of the grass types got Chlorophyl, the Rock types got Sturdy/Rock Head (both of which where useless by then), and the electrics got Static (only Jolteon got Volt Absorb), and the legendaries got Pressure. The DWA distribution also wasn't that great on some mons (the Regis should have gotten Analytic, for instance). What I'm trying to say is that GF should replace abilities at some point, and I believe they will (or they will modify the mechanics around it).
    4. no typing changes without strong justification
      With Magneton and Roton-A in mind, I think it's safe to say that type changes are plausible to occur on 'mons that are introduced last generation, but otherwise not.
    5. only numbers that make sense like 60%, 30%, etc, not weird numbers like 65%
      This simply doesn't fit to the criteria, sorry. It's always most likely for a move to simply not change at all, keeping the accuracy at the same, possibly weard number (look at Fire Blast, for instance).
    6. no buffing OU mons, except maybe tiny buffs to mons at the bottom of OU
      It's a good measurement in this project, but I honestly think that the people of GF hardly even take a look at the tier list. Also, Tyranitar, which was OU in G/S, did get a major buff in Adv in getting Sand Stream.
    7. no doing things that make zero sense flavor-wise
      Sure.
    Now, let's take a look on things that are just as unlikely, i not, even more unlikely:


    Drives will change Genesect's typing immediately after switch-in, to Bug/Ice, Bug/Fire, Bug/Electric, or Bug/Water (basically, it will change Genesect's type, except Genesect will still take neutral damage from SR). However, Download will not activate unless Genesect holds a Drive.
    I know this is based af Rotom-A's change, but when looking at the sprites of these forms (which have no difference besides the color of the drive pugged in), I think this is just way to unlikely, and it hardly makes sense as well. The other changes around it make it even more unlikely (the SR thing was also redundant to say with your nerf of SR in mind). My already proposed change was that drives shouldn't take an item slot (as they replace the pink colored drive in the regular form), and that the forms are nothing but a mere gimmick (although the blue one has a slight edge in having a techno blast that isn't outclassed).



    Recharge moves are similarly buffed. They have 75 base power, always crit, and they only recharge if they KO. Be careful - in return for a KO, they still give the foe a free switch-in and a turn to set up.
    Wait, wasn't hyper beam a move that is supposed to look extremely powerful in the first glace? (i.e. before looking at the flavor text). Also, re\"introducing an inverse version of an RBY glitch (that also hardly makes sense) is also unlikely. My already proposed change was introducing the ability to switch during the recharge turn (it is already possible in-game, when they ask something like do you want to switch), and to buff the legendary's signature move RoT. What I'm trying to say is that this move doesn't have to that great, but shouldn't loose it's own gimmick potential and steal another move's gimmick (looking at Storm Trow/Fire Blast).

    Ice Body has 30% chance of freezing a contact move (and grants passive healing out of Hail, too)
    WTF?

    Also, the changes to the charge moves are unlikely as well. I find it kinda unlogical for the weaker ones to autocrit (plus, overdoing autocrits is somewhat lame to me). I had the following changes in mind:

    -Fly: Rather than making them more powerful themselves, I want to introduce the following gimmick (also quite unlikely to happen, but that holds for every change): When you are in the sky, you can use a few other moves next turns, instead of returning to the ground. This comes to a prize: every move that does hit you, does double dammage (not sure about that). And the list of these kind of moves is extended by Blizzard, Swift, Water Spout, Eruption, Draco Meteor, Explosion and Fly itself (and maybe some others). Also, you can't switch out in the sky, and you can't use this move behind a Sub.
    -Dig/Dive: Similar mechanics there, although I'm not exactely sure how to nail them.
    -Sky Attack: When the user is "cloaked in harsh light", the target looses accuracy by 1 stage. The power and side effects stay (high crit rate, flinch rate). However, this move breaks through Protect/Detect/Substitute, and also gains a chance of dropping defense (as said in the Readme).
    -Freeze Shock: The power should be boosted to 180. In addition to the 30% paralysis rate, it should also gain a 30% freeze rate. Also breaks through protect/detect/sub.
    -Ice Burn: selfexplanatory.
    -Solarbeam: I don't like the healing thing, sorry. The only think I'd like to change is that it should be no longer messed up further by other weather.
    -Sky Drop: this move doesn't really give the target a free turn, so I don't see why it should be changed (maybe power boost to 75).

    The other changes are decent to me, aside from power drop and the autocrit.

    Some other suggestions:
    -PP swap between Protect and Detect
    -Withdraw being a Detect clone
    -Magma Armor raising both defenses by 1 stage after being hit by a Fire move (GenNext's change is a little complicated, but cool nontheless). Also, freezing shouldn't occur to Fire types in general.
    -Meditate raising Atk but also Sdef, as many mind based moves raise Sdef.
    -Mud Sport halves the power of electric moves against the entire team for the next 5 turns, and prevents them form causing paralysis as well (similar to Water Sport).
    -Solar power boosts both offenses under sun.
    -Stench should (as an entire overhaul) cause any incoming target that isn't Poison or Steel to loose 1/16 of the health upon switching in when the bearer is on the field.
  11. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,854
    You're right. My guesses are nothing more than guesses.

    Fortunately, there's no reason my guesses need to be accurate. They're just a good way to put my foot down against a certain class of commonly proposed change.

    For instance, stats changes: everyone has their own idea of how they would change stats, and allowing stats changes opens the doors for a huge number of arguments about precisely just what each stat should be. Also, preserving stats means that you can look up the stats of any NEXT mon on any pokedex, and your intuitions about speed tiers carry over from other gens.

    It's very subjective, but the idea has always been for NEXT to feel like a next gen, and preserving old stats/movepools is I think the most important reason for that feeling.
  12. Mario With Lasers

    Mario With Lasers Self-proclaimed DEAD king
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2006
    Messages:
    7,243
    Well, there's also Flygon. It could go with any Sand ability, in fact.
  13. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    716
    <3

    An fast offensive weather inducer is an interesting thought. (I've never played Ubers, so I have no idea what Kyogre/Groudon are like.) Pop in to kick up the storm, and u-turn out.
  14. Zarel

    Zarel Not a Yuyuko fan
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Battle Server Administratoris a Programmeris a Pokemon Researcheris an Administrator
    Creator of PS

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2011
    Messages:
    1,854
    Not a bad idea, but as you've noticed, I think permanent weather is a bit too powerful of a tool to give to any Pokemon higher than NU. Even Politoed and Ninetales were NU before they got their respective abilities, and they were responsible for making weather the centralizing force it is in gen 5.

    I might give Flygon Sand Force, though. I sort of want to give it Arena Trap, but that will probably make it overpowered. :(
  15. Pwnemon

    Pwnemon Switching is a metagame trend
    is a Tutoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Doubles Co-Lead

    Joined:
    Aug 26, 2010
    Messages:
    3,872
    Well, to be fair, Tyranitar was already OU when it got Sand Stream, and it didn't get a boot to Uber, but that was back in Gen III

    still sandstorm is a pretty neutral weather and with the overall sand nerf i think we could do it

    BUT WHAT I REALLY WANT TO SEE IS TINTED LENS FLYGON

    ITS EYES ARE TINTED LENSES
  16. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast LOL STAFF FAG
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Mentor

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    5,460
    As much as I want Tinted Lens Flygon too, giving Tinted Lens to a Dragon-type is... problematic. Maybe it would be okay considering how Flygon has no boosting moves, but...
  17. apt-get

    apt-get platinum happy
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2012
    Messages:
    614
    I'm still okay with the other proposition: stay with compoundeyes on Flygon, but give it dragon rush/other inaccurate powerful physical moves and Dragon Dance. Gives it something over the other dragons that are way more powerful with a nice typing, decent attack and speed and a move nearly as powerful as outrage but without locking yourself.
  18. Chaoswalker

    Chaoswalker

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2010
    Messages:
    716
    It would be nice if Flygon didn't function largely like the other dragons though. Also his access to U-turn is very attractive, but doesn't work with boosting moves.
  19. tehy

    tehy

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,535
    I say that you just give flygon Sand Force and DD, it's got everything else it need at that point. Earthquake/Outrage/Fire Punch for a DD set;Stone Edge has no good coverage but a sweet Sand Force boost. And of course it's still got U-turn and Fire Blast.

    Alternately, give it SD and sand rush, but that sounds brutally broken, even with Ice Shard existing.
  20. rolen120

    rolen120

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    45
    Clear body got the buff of not affecting self inducing stat drops, but what about white smoke? i believe that was talked about but it never got added in. although shell smash torkoal with overheat might end up being too much
  21. sonicfan7895

    sonicfan7895

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    25
    Clear Body gets a buff of not lowering stats even on itself?

    Ohmigawsh! Now three certain Clear Body users can use Curse and not give a crap whether or not its Speed is affected. Or Close Combat users can not give a crap whether or not their defenses are more frail.
  22. grrgrrgrr1000

    grrgrrgrr1000

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2011
    Messages:
    28
    Nah, I don't think Shell Smash with overheat is going to much, given that Torkoal's speed is beyond retarded. I honestly find, as I suggested before, that the white smoke should last three turns after the bearer switched out, meaning the entire team gets the protection against stat drops during these turns. Might seem much, but the bearers are NU since their introduction, and outstalling these turns shouldn't be that hard.
  23. rolen120

    rolen120

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    45
    I am wondering what the deal with blaziken will be, because it gained reckless and the life orb beef with it, but is still not usable because its an uber. will it drop?
  24. thesynchrohero

    thesynchrohero

    Joined:
    Jul 10, 2012
    Messages:
    201
    Flygon is basically wearing goggles, and is actually glaring at you because you think it has tinted lenses for eyes.
  25. rolen120

    rolen120

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2012
    Messages:
    45
    how about a shell bell beef. turn it into 1/4 or something like that. or a 1.1 damage boost with the 1/8 healing. doesn't work against pokemon with soundproof? extra boost with hyper voice and sound based moves? this could get interesting...

    Edit: ha! #151, im mew now :D

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)