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Gen V PU - NU in NU

Discussion in 'Other Metagames' started by Detective Dell, May 19, 2012.

  1. Choice Socks

    Choice Socks

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    This tier is so fun. Knock off is invaluable!! I can not state the importance of it. The ability to knock eviolite off a wall is completely crippling to it. Staryu is a fantastic spinner, with good bulk and access to recover. And I am also finding Pikachu to be a bit of a power house down here. With nearly 400SpAtk it hurts anything it hits, and it has a very good speed for this tier too.
  2. ebeast

    ebeast she's probably sexting nprtprt
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    I was looking at Erisia's list of hazards users as I'm a very big fan of SemiStall and from just looking I figured that the best Spikes users are Omanyte and Maractus. Omanyte has great bulk with Eviolite and has a very usable base 90 SpA while Maractus has an amazing base 106 SpA, reliable recovery in Synthesis, decent enough bulk for PU, and Water Absorb. Thanks to these traits Maractus can beat its best competitor for Spikes, Omanyte, and defeat the best Rapid Spin users in Sandshrew, Staryu, and Tentacool.

    Maractus can OHKO Sandshrew, 2HKO any Staryu, while completely walling Tentacool and slowly taking it down. However Tentacool can still set up Toxic Spikes so pairing Maractus with a Poison-type Pokemon such as Muk or Arbok who can absorb TSpikes and who are known to set up Curse/Coil while healing with Rest can set up on Tentacool no problem. A Ghost-type Partner such as Duskull can help against Staryu and Tentacool if them not getting a Spin off at all is needed. Duskull's Night Shade also deals massive damage to the NFE's due to their low HP stats.

    [​IMG]
    @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 24 SAtk / 200 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Spikes
    - Synthesis
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Ice] / Hidden Power [Fire]

    This set makes the most of Maractus's great ability to set up Spikes and take on Special Attackers well due to Water Absorb, its Grass-typing, and Synthesis. Maractus in a way acts like a PU Roselia without the Poison-typing, setting up Spikes and dealing heavy hits back. The above EV spread gives Maractus very good special bulk, while having enough defense to completely counter any DD Whiscash. 24 SpA EVs allow Maractus to take down Standard Huntail at 100% health while also OHKOing Eviolite Sandshrew 100% of the time after Stealth Rock/any other form of damage. Maractus then has a choice of using either Hidden Power Ice or Fire, both allowing Maractus to hit other Grass-type Pokemon while each having their own perks. Ice lets it hit Flying-type Pokemon such as Fearow or Dodrio as they switch in expecting to come in freely as Maractus uses Spikes, crippling them from the match alongside Stealth Rock. Fire on the otherhand prevents deadly Pokemon such as Klang or Mawile from freely setting up on Maractus.

    EDIT: I only got 2 games to playtest this Pokemon in PU, and in both games Maractus did excellent. I'm only going to show one because in the other game the opponent had 2 NU's in Cradily(bane of existence every time I see it ;_;) and Camerupt. CB Fearow disappointed me a little that 2nd game, only 3HKOing a SpD Cradily while Dodrio would do 70% min. However I guess Drill Run, U-turn, and Sniper kind of make up for it.

  3. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
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    Tiers are getting updated next month, and with two months of usage data collected, I've published some predictions for who will rise and who will fall come July 1 (assuming June's usage exactly mirrors May's).

    Take these predictions with more than a few grains of salt. I wouldn't expect more than 50% of them to come true (which 50%? Now THAT is the question...)
  4. dinosaurdan

    dinosaurdan

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    I can see Magcargo being a powerhouse if it gets the chance to set up Shell Smash, I'll try it out along with Wailord
  5. Tetrinity

    Tetrinity

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    Luxray and Duosion will be interesting should they drop. It seems we'll be losing quite a few common threats at the same time, though. This ought to shake things up a bit.
  6. Skyshayde

    Skyshayde

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    If someone get's me a list of NU pokemon, in the format

    ['NU Pokemon 1', 'NU Pokemon 2'] I'll add the banlist to my server so you can search for PU Matches
  7. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
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    Here you go (open)

    Code:
    ['Charizard','Wartortle','Raichu','Vileplume','Kadabra','Golem','Haunter','Exeggutor','Marowak','Weezing','Tangela','Jynx','Pinsir','Tauros','Flareon','Quagsire','Misdreavus','Miltank','Ludicolo','Swellow','Gardevoir','Ninjask','Camerupt','Torkoal','Cacturne','Altaria','Armaldo','Absol','Gorebyss','Regirock','Torterra','Luxray','Bastiodon','Floatzel','Drifblim','Skuntank','Lickilicky','Magmortar','Leafeon','Probopass','Rotom-S','Serperior','Emboar','Samurott','Musharna','Gurdurr','Sawk','Garbodor','Cinccino','Duosion','Sawsbuck','Amoonguss','Alomomola','Eelektross','Cryogonal','Braviary']


    You should consider checking out the Smogon scripts. If you go through the trouble of installing Ruby, we have a very simple program that makes updating the tiers a piece of cake.
  8. Skyshayde

    Skyshayde

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  9. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
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    Oh, it's Showdown. Not PO. In that case, ignore


    On another topic, I'm trying to decide between Metang and Lairon for an Agility/Autotomize sweeper on a team of mine (both would run Life Orb). Lairon has higher atk, access to recoil-less Head Smash and more physical bulk. Metang is slightly faster, has better special bulk, access to Meteor Mash with its chance of getting an Atk raise, and doesn't have 4x weaknesses to fighting and ground. In general, which is a better choice?
  10. Ewil

    Ewil

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    IDK if someone else in the thread have just notices this, but Tentacool can set up T-spikes too, only a nit-pick.

    This meta sounds good, when i got bored of NU i probably give this a try :D
  11. Cherub Agent

    Cherub Agent Yeah, well. The Dude abides
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    Would anyone be interested in making this a proper metagame? After all, this is usage based, just like NU upwards, and I thought Smogon's policy was to give all Pokemon a chance to shine competetively. Unfortunately, so many NU Pokemon outclass PU Pokemon, like Absol outclasses Mightyena, Tauros/Cinccino outclasses Raticate, Braviary outclasses Pidgeot, you get my drift. What I would like to see is this tier made official, so that we can truly use ALL Pokemon.
  12. tennisace

    tennisace Proximity to power deludes some into thinking they wield it.
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    When NU was created it was agreed upon that NU would be the last metagame, to be revisited next generation.
  13. Antar

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    The problem is this: there are 649* pokemon, and each tier works out to be around 50 pokemon (turns out, this was by design). If we kept making tiers, so that all pokemon would be viable, we'd end up with somewhere around 13* tiers. That's kind of untenable, don't you think? So we need to draw the line somewhere, and for now, based on the size of our community and a few other factors, we've drawn the line at NU.

    Believe me, I would *love* to see a PU tier. But it's not gonna happen.


    *If we're being fair, we need to subtract some Ubers and add some formes (not just Rotom, but Wormadam--at least in theory--since they have different typings)
  14. SHUCKLE MAN

    SHUCKLE MAN

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    I agree with this. Especially when we've got tiers like RU which are so quiet at the moment, I don't think the demand is there for another usage tier imo.

    On a related note, I think perhaps when we get to 6th generation, we should maybe calculate the tiers, so that the cut-off is lower, and more Pokemon can fit into each tier. Just that if there's 700+ Pokemon, and about 50 Pokemon making each usage tier, we will still have most of the Pokemon not being viable in any of the metagames if we can only do 3 or 4 usage tiers again.

    Not anything urgent of course, but something we should maybe keep in mind for the future (it's better than us to think about this is advance rather than be 2 years into Generation VI with all the tiers done and then have people starting to complain about 70% of the Pokemon not being viable anywhere, and having to argue, or go back and change everything, etc, etc.).
  15. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
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    The cutoff corresponds to the point at which you'll more often than not see a pokemon in a given day if you play 20 battles that day.

    The tiers function at least partially as threatlists. It's nearly impossible to have a team that counters all 649 pokemon. What *is* possible is to design a team that handles the pokemon that you're likely to encounter in a given day.

    In this context, enlarging the tiers (lowering the cutoff) makes no sense--the only way enlarging the tiers makes sense is if we find out that most users are having more than 20 battles per day (per tier, I should add). And if people are playing more than 20 battles a day, there are other problems that need to be addressed.
  16. BlackLightAttack

    BlackLightAttack

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    You want to talk hazard setting? I haven't had as much time to test this set as I'd like, but it's worked wonders for me so far:

    EDIT! Spikes+Disable is illegal on Glalie, see the post below.

    SubSpikeDisable Glalie
    @Leftovers

    [​IMG]

    Substitute
    Spikes
    Disable Torment/Taunt/Protect
    Ice Beam/Toxic


    Timid
    252 HP
    4 SpA / 4 Def
    252 Spe

    SubDisable is annoying enough, but it's even better when dropping entry hazards - something that even Haunter, NU tier's premier subdisabler, cannot do. Glalie fails miserably in NU due to its stats, lackluster typing, and lacking movepool. In PU, however, 80 is a very respectable base stat to have in anything (and in Glalie's case, everything). Although there are still quite a few fast threats in PU like Electrode (for now), Rapidash, the Simi trio, etc., a max speed Glalie still outspeeds a large portion of the common metagame. He's also respectably bulky and can take a hit pretty well, although ideally subs will be taking the hits for him. As long as you can get up that first sub, it can be very hard for your opponent to stop you from getting up your 3 layers of spikes, especially if they send in a Choice user to break it.

    This set's primary goal is to get up 3 layers of Spikes and then find a quiet place to die, but Ice Beam prevents Glalie from being Taunt fodder and offers some useful coverage. It can also be handy once you've laid out 3 layers and continue to subdisable stall while occasionally pecking away with Ice Beams - but in this case, Toxic is generally the better option. Obviously this creates a problematic weakness to taunt, as well as giving Glalie literally nothing to do against Steel/Poison types, but it can be a nightmarish stall to break for an unprepared or weakened team. Toxic stalling with SubDisable can also serve to reliably break down the tier's many Eviolite users, barring Rest sets.

    This set pairs well with someone who can reliably throw down Rocks, like Pineco or Graveler, as well as a bulky Whirlwind/Roar/Dtail user. I used it in conjuction with a max HP/Def Eviolite Golbat with Whirlwind, and it works fantastically.
  17. Tribute

    Tribute

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    Man getting PU battles on the battle finder is aggrivating.

    99% of people just challenge and ask either "Whats PU?" or "You meant OU right???"

    its a shame to because the few legitimate PU battles ive been able to get have been a blast

    Edit:

    On a productive note over the last week or so of NU/PU I've come to really love this giant furball:

    [​IMG]
    Piloswine

    I've ran everything from all out attacking life orb sets (252 hp/252 attack - Icicle Crash/EQ/Ice shard/Superpower or stone edge) to Eviolite sets (252 HP/Def with rocks) to even a curse set (Max hp/def /4 attack - IC/EQ/Protect/Curse).

    right now Im about to experiment with a specialized PU one designed to deal with muk, shedinja, and rotom-F
  18. Spiri

    Spiri

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    Well I can see a few potential PU game breakers
    Articuno -
    This Pokemon can wreck teams with a toxic roost set.

    Carracosta- I have this guy as my lead with shell smash and aqua jet which is pretty destructive.

    Spinda-
    Oh god do not get me started with this guy. It can run a superpower and contrary, which ran with proper EVs can just rape any team.

    Combusken- I ran this in my NU team too! Speed Boost + protect + swords dance. With brick break and flareblitz can make it a kick butt sweeper.
  19. BlackLightAttack

    BlackLightAttack

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    EDIT: Someone on one of my videos has pointed out to me that Spikes+Disable is an illegal combination D: Snorunt gets them both as egg moves from incompatible parents. I'm leaving it as-is right now because I haven't had the opportunity to test alternative moves to Disable, but my most attractive options right now are looking to be Torment, Taunt and Protect. Torment acts as a pseudo-disable but is really only very effective against choice users and mono attackers, while Taunt will stop Glalie from being setup fodder and can offer more opportunities to set up Subs. Protect would be used to great effect if Toxic is chosen over Ice Beam, allowing him to be an incredibly annoying Toxic staller and improving his usefulness after laying out his Spikes.
  20. ThePhalanx

    ThePhalanx

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    So, with B/W 2 out and new move tutors, what do you guys think will become used? I personally am excited for Salac Berry Linoone (such a Beast!), Roost + Tinted Lens Mothim, Infiltrator Seviper + Giga Drain/Dark Pulse (watch out Dual Screens) and Iron Fist Monferno with the elemental Punches.
  21. BlackLightAttack

    BlackLightAttack

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    This just in: Zangoose just broke PU.

    Zangoose @Toxic Orb

    [​IMG]
    Toxic Boost
    Jolly
    4 HP
    252 Atk
    252 Spe

    Facade
    Close Combat
    Quick Attack
    Night Slash/Swords Dance

    Toxic Boost is just ridiculous on this guy. To be fair I've only seen him in one game so far and I was using an idiotic concept team that is destined to fail, but that's not why I'm complaining. On paper, this guy is competitive with and possibly better than Swellow. This guy is Ursaring, but fast. With priority.

    Guts with a Toxic Orb and Toxic Boost with a Toxic Orb are the same thing, and both mons get STAB Facade. Swellow may have the Speed, but Zangoose has a much higher Attack, and STAB Priority to make up for his non-stellar speed. And he doesn't have Swellow's signature weakness to SR. Merits of each:

    Swellow
    ======
    +Scouting with U-Turn
    +Can run Protect
    +Massive Speed
    -Incredibly Frail
    -No Priority
    -Weakness to SR
    -No boosting moves
    -No moves to break down Bastiodon/Probopass/Golem

    Zangoose
    =======
    +STAB Priority
    +Swords Dance
    +CC to break down Rock/Steel types
    +High Base Attack
    +Neutral to SR
    -Frail, but not as frail as Swellow. Might be able to take a hit from an uninvested mon.
    -Can't really afford a Moveslot for Protect, unless forgoing both Night Slash AND Swords Dance
    -Sub-100 Speed

    Honestly the only NU counter I see (let alone PU) is Scarfed Haunter with HP Fighting. After a Swords Dance and after removing any Ghost-types, he'll just run through the entire tier with CC/Facade. This guy is just ridiculous.
  22. Keiran

    Keiran

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    Sorry I haven't been giving this thread the attention it deserves, however with the advent of BW2 and the recent usage statistics, I think it's a perfect time to revive this thread. Courtesy of BW2, NU's statistics have been messed up tremendously, consequently, so was PU.

    I don't quite remember some of the Pokemon that were in the tier before, however what I do know is that we have a few big threats in PU. Namely Swoobat. Due to Simple being released, when Swoobat uses Calm Mind, instead of gaing +1/+1, it gains +2/+2, making it a very frightening sweeper indeed. However the popularity of Rotom-F should be Swoobat in check.

    Sawsbuck is another big threat, with Swords Dance, it makes a frightening sweeper, and once its job is done, it can even use Baton Pass to pass its boosts to a teammate! However yet again, Rotom-F should keep it in check.

    Articuno gaining Hurricane made it a huge threat, despite its inaccuracy, it's incredibly powerful, it dealt 55% to 252/0 Carracosta up in NU!

    Linoone is still in the tier, and still incredibly good thanks to Belly Drum and Extremespeed, what's your opinion on it?

    Fraxure is incredibly power, and gained Superpower and Aqua Tail from BW2 tutors, meaning it actually has coverage now, although that doesn't matter much as there are not many Steel-types in PU to take its Dragon-type moves.

    And I'm sure there's much more to discover! PU is still a widely unexplored tier, and it's fun to play.
  23. Malkyrian

    Malkyrian

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    After reading the above post, my first thought was "but wait a minute, Linoone isn't PU, and I don't think Sawsbuck is either!" So I went to check the usage stats, and it turned out I was right...if I used the June stats. However, if based on the July stats, that thought would be dead wrong. So, I think this makes for a very interesting discussion question...

    How should we standardize PU play?

    Maybe not the best choice of words considering this isn't exactly a standard metagame to begin with, but I think having a general consensus for which month's usage stats are being used to determine PU status could help in giving players a better understanding of the tier, and bringing it closer to legitimacy. I think that the alternative - allowing players to be running what amounts to multiple metagames within the same tier - would be very confusing, at best.

    The way I see it, these are our main choices:


    1. Update the list of PU mons every 3 months, just as the other tiers do.
      • By treating this metagame as essentially just another tier, in my opinion, this approach gives the tier more legitimacy. This can help to increase the size of the playerbase, something that is very much needed at this point. It also stabilizes PU, allowing players significantly more time to learn the metagame and its quirks before the tier shifts happen.
      • The primary downside of this method, however, is something that comes from the lack of official regulation: there is no BL4. As a result, if a particular mon or a particular strategy surfaces as overpowered, the metagame may become stale for months on end - and the chance that that third month won't bring any changes can stand to exacerbate this.
    2. Update the list of PU mons every month.
      • The presence of PU gives us an interesting chance to learn: what would actually happen if we did this? Since we don't have an official tier having a tier shift every month new stats come out, and we have our own say in what happens with this tier, it could be a very interesting experiment - and can stand to attract new players in its own way. On top of that, the relevant mons shifting every month helps in reducing the chance of the metagame becoming stale and dominated by a few.
      • On the other hand, an utterly chaotic metagame isn't exactly a good thing, either. A PU in which people need to constantly check the stats just to see which mons are legal, and constantly remake teams, could be very irritating to play.
    3. Take a third option.
      • While the above are the most immediately obvious options, it is quite possible for us to structure PU entirely differently. Every two months? When NU bans a mon? When a relevant DW ability is released? Something else entirely? Considering this is our metagame with which to do whatever we choose, I'm sure there are plenty of interesting options here.
      • I suppose "don't standardize PU play at all" is a possibility, but I view that as basically the worst of all worlds. We end up with a tier where no one knows which mons are legal because everyone means a different thing when they speak of it, and where new players are even more confused and scared off than they could be with a standardized version.
    So...any thoughts? Personally I'm undecided on this, and I'd very much like to see what people have to say.
  24. Antar

    Antar That's Dr. Antar to you
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    Malkyrian, PU is already standardized using Option 1.

    This contains the "official" list of pokemon in PU: http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3468838

    That is the list that Pokemon Showdown uses (you can challenge people directly to PU battles even though there is no PU ladder).
  25. GRs Cousin

    GRs Cousin

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    I was wondering if we'd ever find a tier below NU. Things like Farfetch'd and Delibird finding little to no use in what is considered the worst of the worst was very sad to look at. Glad to see a metagame of sorts for even mons among their ranks...

    There is something I'm a bit confused about, however. NU was considered the worst of the worst, so the invention of PU was to let even the lowest-classed Pokemon find a place to be viable, right? By that logic, wouldn't PU eventually find out its most viable members and send others of PU into obscurity? Be that the case, there'd need to be an even lower tier, say DU ("Don't use, period" tier), which would function until even that tier is rooted of its worst as well. The original solution of allowing an even lower metagame becomes moot when it only creates another sub-tier below that, while continuing to make further metagames wouldn't end until we find competitive Choice Specs Unown VS Eviolite Metapod battles, which as quirky as that sounds, would essentially rid us a chance to be competitive beyond fighting the NPCs in a Pokemon game's main storyline.

    My main question here is that if there will always be a batch of worse Pokemon, then what's the point of making a tier for them when we're still leaving out the rest?

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