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Latias (Ubers Analysis) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Superimp, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. Superimp

    Superimp

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2012
    Messages:
    62
    STATUS REPORT:
    This analysis is finally complete.
    Previous Status Reports (open)

    • This skeleton is currently a WIP. Everything is subject to change as I test, research, and actually read what I'm writing. Please DO NOT POST in this thread until this notice is removed. Thanks.
    • QC Team / Moderators are allowed to post if necessary on points, such as giving reminders on what to change and stuff. However, please don't mention different EV spreads right now; I know there will be controversy over EV spreads. Remember that this is a WIP too. Thanks.

      • PLEASE NOTE: This notice was placed when the thread was in Placeholder.
    • Although the skeleton is still a WIP, all users are now allowed to post (Had to write the thing up first!). This includes EV spreads.
    • I'm hoping to start writing this soon. If you spot anything I might have missed, please inform me!
    • Still waiting for more QC response to the Support set. Meanwhile, I'm taking a look at the All-Out Attacker set proposed by trickroom; I am investigating on whether Latios outclasses her.
    • Since I'm testing an All-Out Attacker set, I figured that testing a Specially Defensive set wouldn't hurt either.
    • All-Out Attacker is now an official new set.
    • Current QC response to the Support set has not been very positive. Leaning towards a removal unless overall QC response turns positive.
    • Support set has been moved to OO -> Will probably mention the moves in some way rather than the set.
    • Testing of Specially Defensive set is finished as of the moment. Currently, Furai, Poppy, Mr.lol and I seem okay with it; trickroom and shrang see little point in it. Gives a nice four set symmetry with Latios if accepted. Thoughts welcome on the viability of this set!
    • Specially Defensive set is now an official new set.
    • As brought up by Mr.lol, there may still be some controversy on the main EV spreads for most sets. Check the end of Post #28 for the current slate. Everyone's input is welcome!
    • A message from Poppy:
    • A new post with current thoughts on a CM set merge, sets, and set order is coming soon!
    • Writing up the analysis. See below for more details.
    [scroll=8]
    • Unreleased = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • Defensive Calm Mind = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • Offensive Pivot = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • All-Out Attacker = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • Specially Defensive = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • Other Options = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • Overview = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • Checks and Counters = 100% -> COMPLETE
    • CM Merge Set = 0% -> Will only merge if general (and explicit) consensus has been reached
    [/scroll]
    • The analysis is almost finished! After I revamp the current Checks / Counters section, I'll put the unpolished analysis up for comment.
    • Unpolished analysis posted for comment. My own post coming soon. Oh, and I need to figure out how to read Furai's comment too.
    • FINAL VOTE: All-Out Attacker wins based on IRV method. Defensive Calm Mind is second place. Specially Defensive is third place. Offensive Pivot is last place. Order is thus below.
    • In polishing phase. Currently working on implementing the comments of Furai and shrang when applicable.
    • In GP phase (soon).
    • Ready for GP checks.
    • Will be implementing (most of) GatoDelFuego's GP check shortly.
    • GatoDelFuego's GP check has been implemented.
    • Ready for the next GP check.
    • Will be implementing (most of) Oglemi's GP check shortly.
    • Implementing the final GP check.
    • Oglemi's GP check has been implemented.
    • Not ready for uploading (Have to write a post...)


    [scroll=3]QC checks: trickroom, barry4ever, Poppy [3/3]
    GP checks: GatoDelFuego, Oglemi [2/2]
    [/scroll]
    Skeleton of the Analysis (open)
    [Overview]
    • Latias's time has come with the release of Soul Dew. She is back and better than ever.
    • Latias is one of the best answers to Kyogre.
    • Soul Dew allows her to use her Speed, resistances, and ability to their maximum potential.
    • This generation, she is no longer just an offensive pivot; choose between a balanced all-out attacker, potent sweeper, and exceptional special wall as well.
    • Although Latios has much higher Special Attack, Latias's bulk is by far superior.
    • Weaknesses to Dragon-, Ice-, Dark-, Ghost-, and Bug-type attacks are very annoying. This notably includes Pursuit and U-turn.
    • Latias's Physical Defense is only average at best; heavy damage will be taken from physical moves
    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Grass Knot / Thunder
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Surf
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Eases her teammates' sweep by blasting holes. This is her most balanced set.
    • Grabs the greatest amount of initial momentum out of all Latias due to great offensive pressure / coverage. Exceeds Tank Ho-Oh in special bulk.

    • STAB Draco Meteor is her strongest immediate attack.
      • No longer will bulky Dragon-types (EX: Giratina-O) possibly survive a Dragon Pulse and retaliate - Draco Meteor crushes them to bits.
      • Even after Special Attack drop, still powerful enough to discourage Dragon-type Pokemon (EX: Rayquaza) from seeking a free switch-in.
    • Roost grants reliable recovery so that she can better fulfill her purpose.

    • Remaining slots maximize coverage. One is for Kyogre, the other is for Steel-type Pokemon.
    • Grass Knot & Hidden Power Fire preferred (especially sun) for most teams
      • Lesser weather reliance
      • Defeats all auto-weather inducers (EX: Groudon and Tyranitar) as well as Ferrothorn and Jirachi
    • Thunder & Surf preferred for rain
      • Cannot defeat Ferrothorn and highly dependent on rain. However, defeats Lugia, Manaphy, and Heatran
      • Better suited for blasting holes or even sweeping thanks to superior overall coverage and power.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • The increased power of Draco Meteor along with its hit-and-run nature grants Latias the opportunity to invest in bulk while still maintaining great offensive pressure.
    • EV spread guarantees the 2HKO on Specially Defensive Giratina, ensures that Timid Choice Scarf Kyogre's Ice Beam cannot 2HKO after SR, and allows her to outspeed positive base 102 Speed Pokemon like Garchomp. If you lack Hidden Power Fire, simply move 4 Speed EVs into Special Attack.

    • 148 HP / 164 SpA / 196 Spe with a Timid nature always OHKOes Groudon after a layer of Spikes at the cost of a little bulk
    • 100 HP / 164 SpA / 244 Spe with a Timid Nature outspeeds positive base 108 Speed Pokemon like Terrakion at the cost of approaching bare minimum bulk.
    • 88 HP / 168 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid Nature (rain exclusive) Speed ties with positive base 110 Speed Pokemon like Latios at the cost of being at actual bare minimum bulk (ensuring that Kyogre's Choice Scarf Water Spout is unable to 2HKO after SR).

    • If you are willing to run redundant coverage, STAB Dragon Pulse inflicts consistent damage, bluffs, and better sweeps at late-game should the opportunity come up.
    • STAB Psyshock deals with Fighting Arceus and possibly even Chansey or Blissey after some prior damage, but is useless against most CMers due to her lack of Calm Mind.
    • Psych Up copies the opponent's boosts, allowing her to recharge Draco Meteor and defeat CM Kyogre. Combined with Psyshock, she can defeat many Calm Mind Arceus formes. However, is highly situational and cuts into coverage.
    • Thunderbolt can be used over Thunder for its greater accuracy outside of rain, but lesser power along with her intended usage under rain makes it situational at best.

    • Biggest issue All-Out Attacker has are setup sweepers. After Draco Meteor, stuff like Extreme Killer Arceus, Mewtwo, Latios, etc. are able to set up - this isn't good.
    • Unable to reliably boost. Her sweeping potential is inferior to her CM sets because of this. She lacks a consistent / reliable STAB attack too.

    • Unless she carries Psych Up, cannot defeat CM Kyogre. Same thing for CM Arceus.
    • Issues with Thunder Wave Kyogre, albeit to a lesser extent due to reduced Speed investment.
    • Suffers from the Choice Specs Kyogre mindgame (decide between attacking / Roosting for Water Spout), though it's better than Offensive Pivot.

    • Very straightforward set. Switch in, attack / Roost, switch out.
    • Despite lean towards offense, fits on almost any team.
    • Don't place her on teams that cannot afford to let setup sweepers set up.
    • Requires the most team support out of all Latias sets. You MUST have a method of dealing with setup sweepers.
    • Since she is a glue Pokemon, huge commentary on what Latias particularly appreciates will go into Teammates (EX: offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of forced switches, entry hazards, etc.)
    [SET]
    name: Defensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Roar / Refresh / Substitute
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Giving Latias an offensive coverage move is holding her back when sweeping. No matter her choice, she will always lack coverage against certain checks. The only way for Latias to truly overcome this barrier is by focusing on her non-attacking options instead.

    • In the short-term, Latias focuses on disruption, handling threats, and warring through attrition. Do not attempt to sweep, as her checks are probably unweakened. Focus on using her fantastic bulk to come into threats (EX: Kyogre, Calm Mind Arceus, etc.) and resisted attacks, and proceed to wear the opponent's team down.
    • Dragon Pulse is a reliable STAB attack, doing respectable damage. Calm Mind acts as utility against CM users. Roost increases her longevity.
    • Last slot extends on her purpose.
      • Roar handles setup sweepers and weakens most switch-ins providing there is sufficient entry hazard support. Refresh cures her of any detrimental status so she doesn't get worn down (Provides utility against stuff like Gliscor too). Substitute eases prediction, allowing her to scout, damage, or switch regardless of Pursuit.

    • When the opposing team is sufficiently weakened, Latias comes out to sweep.
    • Calm Mind is her win condition, dramatically increasing offensive and defensive potential.
    • Roar phazes any opposing Calm Mind user that tries to Calm Mind alongside her.
    • Refresh crushes any team that now only has status to defeat Latias.
    • Substitute protects her from most non-damaging moves when active as well as stalling low PP attacks, allowing her to defeat foes such as Ferrothorn.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • The longer Latias lasts, the better the chance of sweeping. Needs as much bulk as possible for outlasting the opponent, CMing, and for using her non-attacking moves to their highest potential. But when she actually sweeps, needs max Speed.
    • EV spread provides the maximum amount of bulk possible while allowing her to Speed tie with positive base 110 Speed Pokemon like Latios. Ensures that Kyogre's Choice Scarf Ice Beam is virtually unable to 2HKO after SR.

    • Can take HP EVs away to invest in SpA. 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid nature always OHKO Palkia after Stealth Rock at the cost of some bulk. Don't go too far as it compromises her bulk. She also has only Dragon Pulse for an attacking move too!
    • Can take Speed EVs away to invest in SpA and Speed. 252 HP / 40 SpA / 24 Spd / 192 Spe with a Timid nature can be run to outspeed positive base 102 Speed Pokemon while giving a bit extra special bulk (and OHKOing Palkia after SR...). Don't take too much Speed away, as it makes it more difficult to sweep.

    • Instead of her usual last slot, Latias can use Reflect Type. This copies the opponent's typing, giving her the ability to stand up to Tyranitar, Ferrothorn, Scizor, Genesect, etc. AKA it takes advantage of the opponent's typing. It also allows her to safely switch into Kyogre's Choice Specs Ice Beam after SR. However, the move is a bit situational as it depends on the opponent's team. Can also backfire since it can be played around.

    • Her initial offensive pressure is quite poor when compared to her more offensive sets. She doesn't grab momentum as easily.
    • Cannot expect immediate results, as she has to find the right time to set up.
    • Has a coverage problem. Although it is worked around when she finally sweeps, this does not mean it is fixed in the short-term.

    • Capable of defeating CM Kyogre, but where near as easy as Offensive Pivot. Should she lack Roar, significantly more time will be required.
    • Thunder Wave Kyogre are problematic should she lack Refresh.
    • Still has the Choice Specs Kyogre mindgame, as she can't switch into Kyogre's Choice Specs Ice Beam without Reflect Type.

    • Performs best if used strategically for long-term benefit. As such, fits best on teams that take their time (EX: stall, spike-stacking, balanced, etc.)
    • Not advised to place her on teams that require heavy offensive bias, since her initial offensive pressure is unable to keep up.
    • Entry hazard support is MANDATORY. You're going to need them for wearing the opponent's team.
    • Since she is a glue Pokemon, huge commentary on what Latias particularly appreciates will go into Teammates (EX: entry hazard users, spinblockers, etc.)
    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive

    move 1: Light Screen
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Roar
    move 4: Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Best Kyogre counter in the game bar none.
    • Titanic special bulk; her special bulk is even greater than Specially Defensive Giratina itself.
    • Best Latias in terms of checking / countering utility, since she does everything the other sets can do and more.

    • After Light Screen, Latias (and her team) become nigh impenetrable on the special side. Will no longer have to fear Choice Specs Kyogre's Ice Beam ever again (or for that matter, Kyogre itself)
    • As long as Light Screen is active and she be at reasonable health, no special attacker in the entire game can get past her.
    • Not even Mewtwo's Psystrike can get past her, since Light Screen effects it. For that matter, offensive Mewtwo actually gets checked by Latias, since she can easily switch in, possibly Light Screen, and either Roost up or Roar. It's not just Mewtwo either, many other special threats will be surprised by her resilience (Latias deals with but is not limited to any Calm Mind Arceus, Deoxys-A, Dialga, other Latias, Manaphy, Omastar, Palkia, Reshiram, Shaymin-S, and even Kyurem-W).
    • Wearing Latias down will be difficult, since Roost provides reliable recovery and allows her to maintain long-term presence.
    • Roar phazes any threat that tries to set up, weakening most switch-ins providing sufficient entry hazard support.

    • Despite her lack of investment, Latias is no weakling. Her last slot provides a potent STAB attack.
    • Dragon Pulse is the preferred option due to superior reliability and consistency.
    • Draco Meteor is better for those who prefer more power. Hits harder than any Calm Mind Latias initially. Devastates Dragon-type Pokemon. However, it is inconsistent due to its Special Attack drop. Roar / Light Screen helps minimize any serious repercussions.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Unlike other special walls, Latias can afford to place more emphasis on Speed while still maintaining titanic special bulk.
    • EV spread provides maximum special bulk possible while still outspeeding neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon such as Kyurem-W and Rayquaza. Bulk virtually ensures that Life Orb Mewtwo's unboosted Ice Beam is virtually unable to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.

    • Can take Speed EVs away to invest in bulk. 252 HP / 12 Def / 148 SpD / 96 Spe with a Calm Nature can be run if you're only concerned with outspeeding neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon. This allows Latias to more effectively take on very fast threats (EX: Mewtwo, Deoxys-A, etc.). Don't go too far, because it makes it difficult to use Light Screen, Roar, etc.
    • Conversely, can take Special Defense EVs away to invest in Speed. 252 HP / 52 SpD / 204 Spe with a Calm Nature can be run if you're concerned with outspeeding positive base 90 Speed Pokemon. Anymore reduced bulk investment, and Choice Specs Ice Beam from Kyogre can now possibly 2HKO after SR despite Light Screen.

    • If you're willing to forgo a STAB attack (Which isn't all that great because it makes her vulnerable to Taunt and doesn't use her Special Attack boost from Soul Dew), Refresh can be used to alleviate detrimental status.
    • Likewise, Toxic can be run to more effectively take down opposing Pokemon that can no longer be forced out (EX: endgame Calm Mind Arceus). It also deals significant damage to very bulky opponents like Lugia.

    • Although she isn't offensive deadweight thanks to Soul Dew and her STAB Dragon-type attacks, she isn't exactly strong. Has the weakest overall offensive pressure out of all Latias sets.
    • Has no Special Attack investment AND no Calm Mind; you aren't going to sweep with her offensively unless the opposing team is greatly weakened.
    • Although her special checks are now ineffective, her physical checks remain problematic. She doesn't have any offensive coverage either.

    • These problems don't have too much of an effect on her performance against Kyogre. She has far more luxury against it than any other Latias.
    • EX: Assuming she is at full health, she can safely switch into a full power, rain, critical hit Choice Specs Water Spout.
    • Her only possible issue is endgame Calm Mind Kyogre, which is averted by either carrying Toxic or getting in first and spamming Roar to rack up entry hazard damage.
    • Light Screen will allow other teammates to deal with Kyogre easier
    • If in a pinch, she can still take on endgame Calm Mind Kyogre; she can successfully outstall the attacking moves of a +6 Mono-Attacker Kyogre despite the possible burn.

    • This Latias fits on all but the most offensive teams (since her lack of high offense will be disappointing)
    • Most "glue-like" of all Latias.
    • Since she is a glue Pokemon, huge commentary on what Latias particularly appreciates will go into Teammates (EX: Perish Song users, entry hazards, etc.)
    [SET]
    name: Offensive Pivot
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Thunder / Psyshock
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Despite Latias being traditionally defensive, can act as an incredible offensive pivot.
    • Excels in the ability to switch into any many threats (EX: Kyogre, CM Arceus, etc.) and immediately place offensive pressure in the form of either CM or an attack.
    • Doesn't grab the greatest initial momentum. However, has the potential to grab the most momentum due to Calm Mind.

    • After a single Calm Mind, Latias is capable of dealing more damage to the opponent than any other Latias set. Gives her the potential to sweep too.
    • Roost is for reliable recovery, which maintains her health and ability to check.
    • Dragon Pulse is used as a reliable STAB option, dealing considerable damage.
    • Last slot is used for its utility against Kyogre. Thunder is preferred for superior coverage against Steel-type Pokemon (EX: Genesect)
    • Psyshock is a better option if you intend to take on CM users. More effective against Chansey, Blissey, and Terrakion too.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • Offensive Pivot = Need Special Attack and Speed. Her EV spread de-emphasizes bulk in favor of offense, guaranteeing the OHKO on Palkia regardless of SR and allows her to Speed tie with positive base 110 Speed Pokemon like Latios. She still has excellent special bulk - it's better than Support Arceus-Grass.

    • Can take EVs away from Speed to invest in bulk. 60 HP / 208 SpA / 240 Spe with a Timid nature outspeeds positive base 108 Speed Pokemon like Terrakion. 100 HP / 216 SpA / 192 Spe with a Timid nature outspeeds positive base 102 Speed Pokemon like Garchomp. However, taking away too much Speed works against her purpose.
    • Can possibly take EVs away from Special Attack to invest in bulk. However, counterproductive to her purpose. The heavy Special Attack investment is crucial for using her attacking moves to their highest potential.
    • Lowering her Special Attack greatly weakens her attacks. EX: she can only 2HKO Forretress after Stealth Rock using Thunder guaranteed if she is running at least 204 SpA EVs.
    • NOTE: JUST FOR REFERENCE IN THIS SKELETON -> Dragon Pulse EV benchmarks:
    [box]
    • 16 SpA = OHKO Choice Scarf Kyurem-B guaranteed after SR
    • 36 SpA = OHKO 4 HP Latios guaranteed after 1 Calm Mind
    • 40 SpA = OHKO 0 HP Palkia guaranteed without SR
    • 52 SpA = 2HKO Choice Scarf Dialga guaranteed after SR
    • 56 SpA = 2HKO Rock Polish Groudon guaranteed without SR
    • 76 SpA = 2HKO 252 HP Latias guaranteed without SR
    • 84 SpA = OHKO Kabutops guaranteed after SR
    • 88 SpA = 2HKO Tank Ho-Oh guaranteed after SR
      • = 2HKO Choice Band Victini guaranteed without SR
      • = OHKO Choice Scarf Zekrom guaranteed without SR
    • 100 SpA = OHKO Mixed Attacker Giratina-O guaranteed after SR
    • 104 SpA = 2HKO Choice Band Groudon guaranteed after SR
    • 120 SpA = 2HKO Choice Scarf Dialga guaranteed without SR
      • = OHKO Choice Band & Substitute Hone Claws Zekrom guaranteed after SR
    • 128 SpA = 2HKO Paradancer Groudon guaranteed after SR
      • = 3HKO Calm Mind + 3 Attacks Kyogre guaranteed after SR
    • 136 SpA = 3HKO 252 HP Kyogre guaranteed without SR
    • 144 SpA = OHKO Mixed / Mixed Hone Claws Kyurem-B guaranteed without SR
      • = 2HKO Jynx guaranteed without SR (no rain)
    • 152 SpA = 2HKO Specially Defensive Latias (120 SpD variant) guaranteed after SR
    • 160 SpA = 2HKO Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed after SR
    • 168 SpA = OHKO Choice Band Kyurem-B guaranteed after SR
      • = 3HKO Defensive Dialga guaranteed without SR
      • = 2HKO Great Wall Giratina guaranteed
      • = OHKO Mixed Attacker Zekrom guaranteed without SR
    • 176 SpA = 2HKO Choice Band Groudon guaranteed without SR
      • = OHKO Omastar guaranteed after SR
    • 180 SpA = 2HKO Specially Defensive Latias (148 SpD variant) guaranteed after SR
    • 188 SpA = OHKO Thundurus & Thundurus-T & Tornadus guaranteed after SR
    • 204 SpA = OHKO 0 HP Palkia guaranteed without SR
    • 208 SpA = OHKO 4 SpD Palkia guaranteed without SR
    [/box]
    • Her last slot is quite adaptable. If you are willing to lose Calm Mind, Tailwind doubles the Speed of your entire team; this possibly maintains momentum even after she switches out.
    • If you are willing to lose utility against Kyogre, Hidden Power Fire gets past opposing Steel-type Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Excadrill under sun. It's weather dependent, is negligible against Heatran and Ho-Oh, and loses the Speed tie against positive base 110 Speed Pokemon.
    • Similarly, Surf can be used on a rain team to maintain the ability to Speed tie as well as still damaging Steel-type Pokemon considerably. EX: It 2HKOs Specially Defensive Scizor 74.22% of the time; with SR it's guaranteed. Excadrill and Heatran too. However, it's also weather dependent and is ineffective against Ferrothorn.
    • If you want to maintain utility against Kyogre, Grass Knot hits Groudon and Tyranitar super effectively. However, lesser coverage to Steel-type Pokemon in comparison with Thunder hinders its viability.
    • Thunderbolt can be used over Thunder for greater accuracy outside of rain, but lesser power along with the prevalence of rain makes it situational at best.

    • Her de-emphasis in bulk makes Choiced / Thunder Wave variants of Kyogre problematic. EX: Choice Scarf Ice Beam is an almost guaranteed 2HKO after SR, which can lead to some serious momentum loss.
    • Has the Choice Specs Kyogre metagame for Water Spout (AKA has to decide between an attack or Roost. Can't CM due to high risk of being 2HKOed). Lack of bulk also hurts her ability to defeat CM sweepers with heavy SpA and Speed investment - EX: Electric Arceus.

    • Suffers from a lack of coverage. She can get past many with the right coverage move, but only gets one. Will ALWAYS be left helpless against certain checks because of this.

    • Fits best on a team with an offensive focus. Avoid placing her on teams with a more defensive focus or even balanced, as her lack of bulk will prove disappointing.
    • Since she is a glue Pokemon, huge commentary on what Latias particularly appreciates will go into Teammates (EX: offensive Pokemon that can take advantage of forced switches, entry hazards, etc.).
    [Other Options]

    • Dual Screens with Healing Wish
    • Wish Support with Wish (Obviously)
    • Choice Scarf with Trick

    • Psycho Shift
    • Safeguard
    • Thunder Wave
    • Magic Coat
    • Reflect
    • Hidden Power Fighting
    • Double Team
    • Charm
    • Dragon Breath
    • Sucker Punch
    • Mist Ball
    • Icy Wind
    • Sunny Day
    • Rain Dance
    • Protect
    • Sleep Talk
    • Rest
    • Magic Room
    [Checks and Counters]

    - Latias is very fun to use, but facing her isn't so great.


    - True Counter

    • Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost is capable of switching into any of Latias's attacks after SR, and then retaliating with a super-effective STAB Ghost-type physical attack. Shadow Force OHKOes Substitute-less Latias; Shadow Claw at worst 2HKOes. Has reliable recovery, natural Speed advantage, AND it's immune to Trick too.
    - Any other checks are dependent on both her moves and set
    - Don't mindlessly switch into her; Roar variants will quickly whittle your checks' health down. She can later overpower them.

    - Best/Most Consistent Checks

    • Tyranitar can come into any move (But Grass Knot) and checkmate with a timed Pursuit or Crunch. Does not have reliable recovery.
    • Swords Dance Arceus-Bug can switch into any move (But sun boosted Hidden Power Fire) and use a faster X-Scissor. Has reliable recovery, natural Speed advantage, AND it's immune to Trick too. Performs similarly to Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost.
    • Multiscale Lugia (Preferably Specially Defensive) can stall or phaze Latias. Once damaged, loses to consecutive rain Thunders on the switch-in. Has reliable recovery.
    - Any remaining checks are less consistent than the aforementioned
    - Not a bad idea to carry more than one - if one fails, others can still work. Combats her ability to defeat checks through attrition.
    - You can attempt to use attrition against her; no Leftovers means Latias can eventually be worn down through residual damage. Working against Levitate is not fun though.

    - Other Checks

    - Steel-type Pokemon are generally quite solid, only fearing attrition or her weather-reliant Hidden Power Fire, Thunder, or Surf in accordance to their secondary typing.

    • Scizor is a great check, threatening to KO Latias with U-Turn; Pursuit on the switch also OHKOes.
    • Genesect can threaten Latias with a +1 U-Turn. NOTE: Depending on set, this U-Turn might not always OHKO at full health
    • Jirachi and Heatran - Walls Latias in favorable weather
    • Ferrothorn - Sets hazards up with almost complete impunity; loses to Substitute Defensive Calm Mind (and of course, Hidden Power Fire...)
    • Bulky Excadrill tanks her STABs easily and can heavily damage Latias with a Mold Breaker Earthquake
    • The rare Metagross can OHKO Latias with Meteor Mash after Stealth Rock; Pursuit on the switch will hurt.

    • Support Arceus-Dark can easily defeat any Latias lacking Roar with Payback. Has reliable recovery. Utility Counter Arceus-Psychic is similar, but to a lesser extent.
    • Extreme Killer Arceus 2HKOes with ExtremeSpeed, but cannot safely switch into All-Out Attacker Draco Meteor. NOTE: Jolly Life Orb Extreme Killer Arceus can Shadow Claw or Shadow Force.
    • CM Dark, Psychic, Steel, Ghost, Rock (sandstorm), Bug, and Ice Arceus are generally good checks to Offensive Pivot and All-Out Attacker.
    • CM Arceus-Psychic, Arceus-Dark - Most consistent
    • CM Arceus-Steel - With Roar, can phaze any Latias. However, if Latias is last Pokemon, Offensive Pivot can win with Psyshock. Sun boosted Hidden Power Fire hurts.
    • SD Arceus-Steel - Can 2HKO Offensive Pivot with unboosted Iron Head or SD and then OHKO. Cannot switch into Hidden Power Fire under sun, after SR in neutral weather, or rain boosted Surf after SR.
    • CM Arceus-Ghost, Arceus-Rock (sandstorm) - Loses to Offensive Pivot with Psyshock.
    • CM Arceus-Bug, Arceus-Ice - Loses to Offensive Pivot with Psyshock. Sun boosted Hidden Power Fire hurts. Stealth Rock weakness sucks.
    • All CM Arceus have issues against Defensive Calm Mind with Roar (Except Steel Arceus, but even then He has a stalemate against endgame Latias). They are also complete failures against Specially Defensive.
    - Any faster Pokemon that is capable of OHKOing Latias can act as a revenge killer.

    • Choice Scarf users that have physical attacks - EX: Heracross, Zekrom, Kyurem-B, etc.
    • Pokemon that naturally have a Speed advantage - EX: Kingdra with Outrage, Swords Dance Arceus-Dragon
    • Giratina-O and Mamoswine can pick Latias off with their respective priority moves if she is weakened.
    • Darkrai - Dark Void, but only if Sleep Clause hasn't been activated or Light Screen / too many CMs are up

    • Chansey/Blissey (if Latias lacks Psyshock or Refresh)
    • Wobbuffet (use her as setup bait)
    • Ho-Oh (vulnerability to Stealth Rock, Surf, and Thunder)
    • Bisharp (paltry special bulk)
    [Unreleased]

    • Chandelure
      • Great teammate, lousy check (Blame Soul Dew).
      • Can be quite bothersome with Trick or Curse.

    [Overview]

    <p>Too long has Latias shied away from the embattled Uber tier, for with the aid of her precious Soul Dew, her time is at hand. From nothing into something, Latias makes her triumphant return. To the horror of every Kyogre, Latias can now use her numerous resistances, fantastic ability, and excellent Speed to their maximum potential. She isn't just an offensive pivot; Latias can be a balanced all-out attacker, a potent sweeper, or an exceptional special wall. Although her brother Latios is far more offensively inclined, her bulk is more than enough to make up for her relative power. However, Soul Dew is not the perfect solution. Her weaknesses to Dragon-, Ice-, Bug-, Ghost-, and Dark-type attacks remain a hindrance, and her physical bulk is only average at best. But none of this is enough to put a damper on her bright spirit; Latias is the rising star of the Uber tier.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Grass Knot / Thunder
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Surf
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Not willing to be left behind by her brother Latios, Latias returns with great Speed, surprising power, and fantastic special bulk. Flying in and out of the battlefield as she pleases, Latias eases her teammates' sweep by blasting holes through the opposing team. She is not only capable of grabbing the greatest initial momentum out of all Latias sets thanks to great initial offensive pressure and coverage, but maintains special bulk exceeding that of tank Ho-Oh; this is her most balanced set yet.</p>

    <p>Casting aside the consistency of Dragon Pulse, Latias takes up her most powerful STAB option&mdash;Draco Meteor. By far her strongest immediate attack, it pulverizes any Pokemon lacking a resistance or great special bulk. No longer can bulky Dragon-types such as Giratina-O or Dragon Arceus possibly survive; they are now OHKOed with ease. Even after the Special Attack drop, Draco Meteor is still powerful enough to discourage Dragon-type Pokemon, most notably Rayquaza, from seeking a free switch-in. Roost provides reliable recovery, increasing her lifespan so that she can better fulfill her purpose.</p>

    <p>Latias's remaining slots are dedicated towards maximizing coverage. One slot provides utility against Kyogre; the other slot provides weather dependent coverage against Steel-type Pokemon. Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire is the preferred attacking combination for most teams, in particular those utilizing sun, due to a lesser reliance on weather, its ability to deal with all auto-weather inducers such as Groudon and Tyranitar, and its specialization against Latias's key checks, in particular Ferrothorn and Jirachi. For those using rain, Thunder and Surf are better options. Although it is highly reliant on rain and incapable of defeating opposing Ferrothorn, this combination is capable of defeating Manaphy, Lugia, and Heatran. It is also better suited for blasting holes or even sweeping thanks to superior overall coverage and power.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>When maximizing damage output, both Speed and Special Attack are crucial. Yet, with the increased power of Draco Meteor along with its inherent hit-and-run nature, Latias can afford to place more emphasis on bulk while still maintaining great offensive pressure. As such, her EV spread guarantees the 2HKO on specially defensive Giratina regardless of Stealth Rock, ensures that Timid Kyogre's Choice Scarf Ice Beam is unable to 2HKO after Stealth Rock, and allows her to outspeed opposing positive base 102 Speed Pokemon like Garchomp. If Latias lacks Hidden Power Fire, simply transfer 4 Speed EVs into Special Attack as the Speed compensation is unneeded.</p>

    <p>Although bulk is one of Latias's greatest strengths, it is advised to refrain from any further bulk investment. Lowering her Special Attack greatly weakens her damage output, while lowering her Speed hinders her ability to offensively force switches by outspeeding threats. This is unacceptable for a set geared towards strong initial offensive pressure.</p>

    <p>It is much more practical depending on your personal preference to take EVs away from HP and invest it in her Special Attack or Speed instead. For those running Hidden Power Fire, 148 HP / 164 SpA / 196 Spe with a Timid nature can be run if you're willing to lose a little bulk in exchange for the ability to always OHKO Groudon after a layer of Spikes. 100 HP / 164 SpA / 244 Spe with a Timid Nature can be run if you're willing to approach bare minimum bulk in exchange for the ability to outspeed opposing Terrakion and still ensure that Kyogre's Choice Scarf Water Spout is unable to 2HKO after Stealth Rock. If even greater Speed is desired, Hidden Power Fire must be forgone because of its inherent Speed drop. 88 HP / 168 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid Nature allows her to Speed tie with opposing positive base 110s. If at this point you still wish for more Special Attack, consider using Latios instead.</p>

    <p>Despite her focus on strong coverage, her coverage slots can be configured to provide any desired utility. STAB Dragon Pulse inflicts consistent damage, bluffs, and allows her to more effectively sweep late-game should the opportunity arise. However, the loss of either utility against Kyogre or Steel-type Pokemon hurts its viability. Similarly, STAB Psyshock deals with Fighting Arceus and possibly even Chansey or Blissey after some prior damage. If you seek the utility for taking on Calm Mind users, Psych Up allows Latias to copy her opponent's current boosts. This recharges Draco Meteor for reuse and allows her to defeat any Calm Mind Kyogre. When paired with Psyshock, Latias becomes capable of taking on many Calm Mind Arceus formes. However, Psych Up is highly situational and cuts into coverage; it should only be considered if there is no other alternative for taking on Calm Mind users on your team. Thunderbolt can be used over Thunder for its greater accuracy outside of rain, but its lesser power along with her intended usage under rain makes it a situational option at best.</p>

    <p>The bane of this set is its vulnerability to setup sweepers. Although Pokemon such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza are still unable to set up after a Draco Meteor, dangerous sweepers such as Extreme Killer Arceus, Mewtwo, and Latios are capable. Left unchecked, these threats will prove particularly problematic; this issue is further exasperated by her inability to reliably boost.</p>

    <p>Latias is unable to check Calm Mind Kyogre without Psych Up; this problem is similarly seen against Calm Mind Arceus. Thunder Wave variants will also prove problematic, albeit to a lesser extent due to reduced Speed investment. Likewise, a full power Choice Specs Water Spout forces a mindgame as she is forced to either attack or Roost.</p>

    <p>Playing with this set is quite straightforward: find an opportunity to switch in, decide whether to attack or Roost, and then switch out if the situation turns undesirable. As such, despite her lean towards offense, she fits on almost any team. However, unlike other Latias sets, all-out attacker requires some specific team support in order to function at full capacity. It is critical that she is paired up with teammates who can deal with dangerous setup sweepers. For example, Wallceus takes on physical setup sweepers like Swords Dance Arceus while Ferrothorn deals with special setup sweepers such as Kyogre, Latias, and Manaphy. Otherwise, Latias will prove to be a great glue Pokemon, providing excellent balance between both offensive and defensive utility. However, should Latias mispredict using her coverage, switch-ins like Genesect who carry super effective attacks will be most disliked. As such, Pokemon who resist her weaknesses happen to be great teammates, in particular Steel-type Pokemon such as Steel Arceus, Heatran, and Jirachi. As Latias's great offensive pressure tends to force a lot of switches, partnering her with offensive Pokemon such as Groudon, Kyogre, and Genesect is advised. Similarly, Pokemon who can set up entry hazards such as Skarmory and Forretress are excellent for punishing switches as well as increasing the chance of her KOs. Finally, because Latias still has a few coverage deficiencies, make sure these shortcomings are patched up in some form. For instance, should she lack Thunder, a Toxic user or very potent attacker such as Kyogre or Zekrom can help deal with troublesome Lugia.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Defensive Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Roar / Refresh / Substitute
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>In the Uber metagame, only clever, bold, and strategic play can maximize Latias's chance to sweep. Her slots for offensive coverage are limited; she will always be left helpless against certain checks. Thus, the only way for Latias to truly overcome her coverage deficiency is by backing away from offensive coverage and focusing on her non-attacking options instead.</p>

    <p>For the short-term, Latias focuses on disruption, handling threats, and warring through attrition. Do not attempt to sweep early-game; she has too many checks who can stop her at this stage. Instead, focus on using her fantastic special bulk to easily come into threats such as Kyogre and Calm Mind Arceus. From there, proceed to wear the opponent's team down. Dragon Pulse acts as her reliable STAB attack, doing respectable damage despite the lack of investment. Calm Mind acts as her utility against opposing Calm Mind users, while Roost increases her longevity. Her last slot is an extension of her overall purpose. Roar handles opposing setup sweepers along with weakening most switch-ins, providing there is sufficient entry hazard support. Refresh maintains vitality by curing her of detrimental status, granting utility against status users like Gliscor. Substitute eases prediction, providing an opportunity to scout, damage, or switch regardless of Pursuit.</p>

    <p>Only when the time is right, when the opponent's team is sufficiently weakened, does Latias come in to finally sweep. Calm Mind acts as her win condition, dramatically increasing her potential so that she becomes a force to be reckoned with. Roar phazes any opposing Calm Mind user who dares set up Calm Mind alongside her, allowing her to proceed unheeded. Refresh crushes any team that now only has status to defeat Latias. Substitute protects her from most non-damaging moves as well as allowing her to stall out low PP attacks, which can enable her to defeat foes such as Ferrothorn.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The longer Latias is able to last throughout the match, the better her chances of sweeping. As much bulk as possible is necessary for outlasting the opponent, setting up Calm Minds, and for using her non-attacking moves to their highest potential. Yet when Latias is finally able to sweep, she needs to be able to outspeed the maximum number of threats. As such, her EV spread provides the maximum amount of bulk possible while still maintaining the Speed necessary to Speed tie with opposing positive base 110 Speed Pokemon like Latios. The invested bulk also ensures that Kyogre's Choice Scarf Ice Beam is virtually unable to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>As all teams are different, it follows that Latias is the same. Depending on your personal preference, feel free to take some EVs away from HP and invest it in her Special Attack. 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe with a Timid nature can be run if you're willing to lose a little bulk in exchange for the ability to always OHKO Palkia after Stealth Rock. However, taking too many EVs away from HP compromises her bulk, diminishing her ability to last throughout the match. Heavy investment in Special Attack will leave her with inadequate bulk, limited coverage, and a non-attacking move that is only situationally effective; a more offensive Latias set is the better option.</p>

    <p>Similarly, you can easily take some EVs away from Speed and invest it in her Special Attack and bulk. 252 HP / 40 SpA / 24 SpD / 192 Spe with a Timid nature can be run if you're only concerned with outspeeding Garchomp, guaranteeing an OHKO on Palkia after Stealth Rock along with some extra special bulk. Feel free to take away even more Speed EVs, but note that the lesser Speed makes it more difficult to sweep; this is counterproductive for her purpose. If you wish for a very bulky Latias, specially defensive is the superior option.</p>

    <p>Although Latias's other moves are mandatory for her sweeping purpose, her last slot can run a rather unique option&mdash;Reflect Type. By copying the opponent's typing, not only does it allow her to switch into Kyogre's Choice Specs Ice Beam after Stealth Rock, but also completely changes her checks. For example, Tyranitar is unable to Pursuit her effectively. A Genesect or Scizor switch-in will find their U-turn or Pursuit ineffective, instead granting momentum to Latias. Ferrothorn will now find its Leech Seed and other attacks useless, leaving it setup bait. However, Reflect Type is a situational move; more often than not will it be complete deadweight against teams that lack Pokemon who Latias can benefit from. Reflect Type can also backfire to disastrous results; once it has been revealed, it can be played around.</p>

    <p>Due to her emphasis in bulk, Latias has a deficiency in offense. This leaves her initial offensive pressure quite poor in comparison with her more offensive sets; she doesn't grab momentum nearly as easily. Do not expect any immediate results, for Latias needs to find the right time to set up Calm Minds for offensive impact. This problem is further augmented by her lack of coverage. Although this issue is worked around when she finally sweeps, this does not mean it is resolved in the short-term. Her checks are still as annoying as ever should they not be weakened and safely switched in, especially since she lacks the coverage to immediately get rid of them. For example, Genesect with its U-turn will always force Latias to switch out should she lack a Substitute.</p>

    <p>Certain issues against Kyogre remain despite the increased level of bulk. Although she is still capable of defeating Calm Mind Kyogre one-on-one, it's nowhere even close to the ease offensive pivot experiences. Should she lack Roar, significantly more time will be required, increasing her chance of losing to an unfortunate critical hit or detrimental status; this problem is similarly seen against other opposing Calm Mind users. Likewise, Thunder Wave Kyogre proves a hassle should she lack Refresh. What's more, Latias still suffers from the Choice Specs Kyogre mindgame, since though Water Spout is now manageable, Ice Beam is still far too powerful for Latias to handle without Reflect Type.</p>

    <p>Latias shines when she is used strategically for long-term benefit. She fits best on teams that take their time, such as stall, Spikes-stacking, and balanced. It is unwise to place her on teams that demand extreme offensive bias, as her initial offensive pressure is unable to keep up with their pace.</p>

    <p>Only entry hazard support is mandatory when using this set as they are crucial for capitalizing on her ability to force switches as well as wearing down the opponent's team. Otherwise, Latias doesn't require any other specific team support, instead acting as a fantastic glue Pokemon by providing both a win condition as well as considerable threat checking utility. However, as Latias is dependent on entry hazards, spinblockers such as Ghost Arceus, Giratina, and Giratina-O can prove great teammates despite common weaknesses, especially since they provide a convenient resistance to Bug-type attacks. Early-game Latias still dislikes switch-ins who manage to switch in with super effective attacks, like Genesect, so Pokemon who resist her weaknesses are great teammates. Good choices can range from Jirachi to Heatran and Ferrothorn to Forretress, many of whom happen to provide valuable entry hazard support. Carrying a physical wall such as Wallceus or Skarmory is also wise for taking on physical threats like Swords Dance Ghost Arceus. Finally, because she lacks offensive coverage, make sure to have a game plan against her checks in the short-term. For instance, should Ferrothorn safely switch in on a Latias lacking Substitute, Xatu and Forretress can help minimize its impact while providing Magic Bounce and Rapid Spin support respectively.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Light Screen
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Roar
    move 4: Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Looking for the best Kyogre counter in the game? Cease your search, for in her most defensive role yet, Latias's special bulk is simply titanic&mdash;even specially defensive Giratina is outmatched. No other Latias set compares with her amount of utility, for she not only checks and counters the very same threats that they are capable of, but can accomplish feats that other Pokemon can only dream of.</p>

    <p>Following the use of Light Screen, Latias and her team becomes nigh impenetrable on the special side. No longer will she have to fear Kyogre's Choice Specs Ice Beam; any Kyogre is reduced to mere impotency. For as long as Light Screen remains active and she be at reasonable health, no special attacker in the game has the strength to overcome her. Not even Mewtwo's Psystrike, renowned for being the bane of special walls like Chansey, is capable of getting past Light Screen. In fact, Mewtwo will find itself checked by Latias, who can switch in with ease, possibly Light Screen, and then proceed to heal up with Roost or phaze with Roar. It's not just Mewtwo either: any Calm Mind Arceus, Deoxys-A, Dialga, other Latias, Manaphy, Omastar, Palkia, Reshiram, Shaymin-S&mdash;even Choice Specs Kyurem-W itself&mdash;will find themselves surprised by her sheer tenacity. Even wearing Latias down will prove difficult, for Roost provides reliable recovery and allows her to maintain long-term presence. Roar phazes any threat who tries to set up, weakening most switch-ins provided there is sufficient entry hazard support.</p>

    <p>Despite her lack of investment, Latias is no weakling; her last slot provides a potent STAB attack. Dragon Pulse is the preferred option for its high reliability. For those who desire more power, Draco Meteor is a better option. Its great power initially exceeds that of any Calm Mind Latias set, devastating opposing Dragon-type Pokemon. However, its Special Attack drop makes it inconsistent; Light Screen and Roar help minimize any serious repercussions.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>In the Uber metagame, the sheer number and power of its special attackers necessitate heavy investment in special bulk. But unlike other special walls, Latias can afford to place more emphasis on Speed while still maintaining titanic special bulk. As such, her EV spread provides the maximum special bulk possible while still allowing her to outspeed opposing neutral base 95 Speed Pokemon like Kyurem-W and Rayquaza. The invested bulk also ensures that Mewtwo's unboosted Life Orb Ice Beam is virtually unable to 2HKO after Stealth Rock.</p>

    <p>Latias's EVs can easily be tweaked depending on your personal preference to more effectively take on certain special attackers. Feel free to take some EVs away from Speed and invest it in her bulk instead. 252 HP / 12 Def / 148 SpD / 96 Spe with a Calm Nature can be run if you're only concerned with outspeeding neutral base 90 Speed Pokemon like Kyogre and Reshiram; this allows her to better deal with threats such as Deoxys-A and Mewtwo. You're welcome to take away even more Speed EVs, but note that lesser Speed makes it significantly more difficult for her to use Light Screen or Roost before a relatively slow hit, or out-phaze with Roar.</p>

    <p>Conversely, you can easily take some EVs away from Special Defense and invest it in her Speed. 252 HP / 52 SpD / 204 Spe with a Calm Nature can be run if you're willing to sacrifice significant special bulk in exchange for the ability to outspeed positive base 90 Speed Pokemon. However, any further Speed investment is counterproductive due to compromising her ability to safely switch into Kyogre's Choice Specs Ice Beam after Stealth Rock; this is a significant incentive for her usage.</p>

    <p>Light Screen, Roost, and Roar are crucial to Latias's purpose. However, if you are willing to forgo a STAB Dragon-type attack, Refresh can be run to alleviate detrimental status. Toxic allows Latias to more effectively take down opposing Pokemon who can no longer be forced out, such as last-Pokemon Calm Mind Arceus. It also deals significant damage to very bulky opponents like Lugia. However, both options leave her particularly vulnerable to Taunt users and fail to take advantage of Soul Dew's Special Attack boost; this hurts their viability.</p>

    <p>Because Latias places so much emphasis into her bulk, it is understandable that her offense suffers. Although she is no offensive deadweight thanks to Soul Dew and her STAB Dragon-type attacks, she still isn't very strong; she has the weakest overall offensive pressure out of all Latias sets. This problem is further augmented by her lack of coverage. Although any special checks are now ineffective, her physical checks remain troublesome. For example, Genesect with its U-turn will always force Latias to switch out.</p>

    <p>Her issue in offense has little effect on her performance against Kyogre. Latias's increased special bulk, Light Screen, and Roar gives her far more luxury; no longer will she have to play on Kyogre's terms&mdash;she comes in whenever she wants to. For instance, a Latias at full health is capable of switching into a full power, critical hit Choice Specs Water Spout. In every single relevant scenario, she will reliably and consistently counter Kyogre regardless of set. Her only possible issue, last-Pokemon Calm Mind Kyogre, is averted by getting in first and utilizing Roar to rack up entry hazard damage. Light Screen allows other teammates to deal with Kyogre more effectively, while she still has the ability to take it on in a pinch; she can successfully outstall the attacking moves of a +6 mono-attacker Kyogre despite the possible burn.</p>

    <p>Latias is great for teams that need extra reassurance against special threats. Despite her lean towards defense, she fits on all but the most offensive teams. As such, avoid placing her on teams like hyper offense, or her lack of strong offense will prove disappointing.</p>

    <p>The closest thing to a glue Pokemon out of all Latias sets is specially defensive. She isn't really used with specific teammates; she holds a team together by providing an answer to a wide range of threats. Latias is invaluable for supplying specific team support in phazing, Light Screen, and more. However, physical attackers who carry super effective attacks, like Genesect, are a huge hindrance, so physically bulky Pokemon who resist her weaknesses happen to be great teammates. In particular, physical walls such as Wallceus and Skarmory are fantastic partners, especially since they are better suited for taking on physical threats like Swords Dance Ghost Arceus. Because Latias in turn is particularly good at taking on special attackers, entry hazards from the likes of Ferrothorn and Forretress can help make the most of her ability to force switches as well as compensating for her reduced offensive power. Latias also finds many last-Pokemon situations particularly bothersome, so Perish Song support from an Arceus forme is greatly appreciated. Cleric support from Blissey or Chansey is also wise for curing her of detrimental status like Toxic. Lastly, make sure to have some way of dealing with her non-special checks. For instance, should Ferrothorn manage to safely switch in, Xatu and Forretress are excellent solutions who can provide Magic Bounce and Rapid Spin support respectively.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive Pivot
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Thunder / Psyshock
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Although Latias is traditionally defensive in nature, do not be deceived; she can act as an incredible offensive pivot in her own right. Excelling in the ability to switch into a multitude of threats, such as Kyogre and several Calm Mind Arceus, Latias immediately places offensive pressure in the form of either a possible Calm Mind or attack. Although she does not grab the greatest initial momentum out of all Latias sets, she has the potential to grab the most momentum due to Calm Mind.</p>

    <p>After a single Calm Mind, Latias is capable of dealing more damage to the opponent than any other set while also giving her the potential to sweep. Dragon Pulse is a reliable STAB attack, dealing considerable damage thanks to her heavy Special Attack investment. Roost grants Latias reliable recovery, essential for maintaining her health and for checking threats. For her last slot, both options are useful for their utility against Kyogre. Thunder is the preferred option thanks to its superior coverage against Steel-type Pokemon such as Genesect and Scizor. If you intend to take on Calm Mind users, her STAB Psyshock is a better option. By bypassing any Calm Mind boost through attacking their Defense instead, Latias will almost always win the Calm Mind war. It also allows her to beat Chansey, Blissey, and Terrakion more effectively.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Being an offensive pivot, having as much Speed and Special Attack as possible is critical. The Speed is necessary for outspeeding the maximum number of threats, while the Special Attack is necessary for KOs and increasing overall offensive pressure. As such, Latias's EV spread emphasizes offense in favor of bulk, guaranteeing an OHKO on Palkia regardless of Stealth Rock as well as allowing her to Speed tie with opposing positive base 110 Speed Pokemon like Latios. Even with her weakened focus on bulk, she still possesses excellent special bulk; her special bulk is greater than support Grass Arceus.</p>

    <p>Even in the constrained role of an offensive pivot, Latias remains flexible. You can easily take EVs away from Speed and invest it in her bulk depending on your personal preference. 60 HP / 208 SpA / 240 Spe with a Timid nature can be run if you're only concerned with outspeeding Terrakion, while 100 HP / 216 SpA / 192 Spe with a Timid nature can be run if you're only concerned with outspeeding Garchomp. Feel free to take away even more EVs from her Speed, but do recall that taking too much Speed away is counterproductive to her purpose.</p>

    <p>Likewise, you can choose to take EVs away from Special Attack and invest it in her bulk. However, it too is counterproductive for her purpose; the heavy Special Attack investment is crucial for using her attacking moves to their highest potential. Lowering her Special Attack not only greatly weakens the power of her Dragon Pulse, but also her lone coverage move. For instance, Latias can only 2HKO Forretress after Stealth Rock using Thunder guaranteed if she is running at least 204 SpA EVs. If you lower her Special Attack significantly in exchange for bulk, the defensive Calm Mind set is probably the better option for you.</p>

    <p>Although Latias is offensively focused, her slots remain readily adaptable. If you are willing to forgo the utility of Calm Mind, Tailwind doubles the speed of your entire team. This allows her to possibly retain momentum even after she switches out. Hidden Power Fire loses utility against Kyogre, but incinerates opposing Steel-type Pokemon such as Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Excadrill under sun. However, it's weather dependent, does negligible damage to Heatran and Ho-Oh, and comes at the cost of losing the Speed tie against other positive base 110s. Surf on the other hand maintains her ability to Speed tie with these Pokemon as well as having greater Base Power so that it still damages Steel-type Pokemon considerably. For example, Surf always 2HKOes specially defensive Scizor after Stealth Rock. However, it too is weather dependent as well as being ineffective against opposing Ferrothorn. For those seeking to maintain their utility against Kyogre, Grass Knot is a possible option while also being significantly more effective against Tyranitar and Groudon. However, its lesser coverage against Steel-type Pokemon in comparison with Thunder hurts its viability. Similarly, Thunderbolt can be used over Thunder for its greater accuracy outside of rain, but its lesser power along with the prevalence of rain makes it a situational option at best.</p>

    <p>Latias has two main issues as offensive pivot: low initial bulk and restraint on coverage. Due to her lowered bulk, Choice and Thunder Wave variants of Kyogre can prove problematic. Most notably, Choice Scarf Ice Beam is an almost guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock; this is a serious problem given that any Latias caught on the switch will hamper momentum. Similarly, a full power Choice Specs Water Spout forces a mindgame as Latias is only able to attack or Roost; Calm Mind is not an option due to the high risk of being 2HKOed. Her lack of bulk also hurts her ability to safely take on Calm Mind sweepers such as Electric Arceus who heavily invest in Speed and Special Attack.</p>

    <p>Latias suffers from a lack of coverage. Although she can get past many of her checks with the right coverage move, she only gets one. As such, Latias will always be left helpless against certain checks. Even then, U-turn users such as Genesect will always force her to switch out, seriously harming her ability to sweep.</p>

    <p>To utilize Latias to her maximum potential, play to her strengths. Due to her offensive pivot nature, she fits best on teams with an offensive focus. Avoid placing her on teams with a more defensive focus or even balanced, as her lack of bulk against threats such as Choice Specs Kyogre will prove disappointing.</p>

    <p>Provided she is placed on an offensive team, Latias does not need to be used with any specific Pokemon. She acts as an amazing glue Pokemon by filling crucial gaps in teams. For instance, most offensive teams find Kyogre problematic and cannot afford to run Pokemon such as Gastrodon or Grass Arceus due to their inferior offensive pressure. These teams greatly appreciate Latias's Speed, Special Attack, and still excellent special bulk, especially as she carries reliable recovery and Calm Mind unlike Palkia. However, Latias greatly dislikes switch-ins who carry super effective attacks, like Genesect, so Pokemon who resist her weaknesses make great teammates. Depending on your team, good choices might include Steel-types such as Steel Arceus and Forretress, or it might include Pokemon with more situational typing like Ho-Oh and Fighting Arceus. Speaking of switch-ins, many offensive Pokemon are capable of utilizing her forced switches to pose an immediate threat. Genesect, Kyogre, and Groudon are some of the many Pokemon who happen to be particularly good at this role. Similarly, entry hazard support is great for taking full advantage of her ability to force switches as well as increasing the chance of her KOs. Finally, make sure her coverage problem is addressed in some form. For instance, if Latias lacks Hidden Power Fire, have a method of dealing with Ferrothorn such as Xatu, who coincidentally also provides Magic Bounce support for the rest of your team.</p>

    [Other Options]


    <p>As one of the most versatile Pokemon in the Uber tier, Latias will almost always have something that appeals to what you're trying to achieve. If you're looking for a good dual screens user, why not consider Latias? Combined with Light Clay, she can reliably set up dual screens and then sacrifice herself with Healing Wish to give one of your damaged sweepers another chance to sweep. Interested in a Kyogre-checking Wish supporter? Why not use Latias, who boasts incredible longevity and Levitate? Or if you're a bit daring, why not maximize Latias's excellent base 110 Speed with a Choice Scarf and Trick? And with so many niche moves that she can use to reasonable success, you have plenty of options to choose from: Psycho Shift, Safeguard, Thunder Wave, Magic Coat, Reflect, Hidden Power Fighting, Double Team, Charm, DragonBreath, Sucker Punch, Mist Ball, Icy Wind, Sunny Day, Rain Dance, Protect, and RestTalk; invent your own Latias to find your perfect fit.</p>

    <p>However, by running an unorthodox set, the opportunity cost will be high; you forgo all the tried and true benefits that the other sets bring to the table. Many other Pokemon can fulfill these roles, if not better: Deoxys-S, Latios, Cresselia, or even Deoxys for dual screens; Chansey, Blissey, or Jirachi for Wish support; and almost every single notable Dragon-type used in Ubers for Choice Scarf. But don't let this opportunity cost get in your way; if there is a set that you personally find to be effective, then feel free to use it as you see fit.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Latias is a very fun Pokemon to use; she isn't as fun to face. Her only true counter is Swords Dance Ghost Arceus, who boasts greater Speed, reliable recovery, and the ability to either OHKO with Shadow Force or at worst 2HKO with Shadow Claw. Any other checks are dependent on the selection of both her moves and set.</p>

    <p>When playing against Latias, be wary of mindlessly switching in. When combined with sufficient entry hazard support, Roar will quickly whittle the health of your checks down; she can potentially overpower these weakened checks later during the game. As such, checks who have obscure weak points and either Pursuit or reliable recovery will generally perform the most consistently. Unless met with Grass Knot on the switch-in, Tyranitar can easily weather Latias's attacks, checkmating with Pursuit or Crunch. Swords Dance Bug Arceus with X-Scissor performs similarly to Swords Dance Ghost Arceus, but is severely damaged on the switch-in by sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire. Multiscale Lugia, preferably specially defensive, can use Toxic and either phaze or stall her with impunity, but once damaged, even it will fall to consecutive rain Thunders on the switch.</p>

    <p>The remaining checks to Latias are less consistent, as they either have noticeable weak points, only work against certain sets, are easily worn down, or are predominately revenge killers. It's not a bad idea to carry more than one of these checks to fully address Latias; if one check goes down against a certain set, the others can still potentially defeat her. This also combats her ability to defeat checks through attrition. Speaking of attrition, you can attempt to use this against her; without Leftovers, Latias can eventually be worn down through residual damage. However, working against her Levitate makes this easier said than done, as she is almost fully immune to entry hazards.</p>

    <p>Steel-types are solid checks to Latias, only fearing attrition or her weather-reliant Hidden Power Fire, Thunder, or Surf in accordance to their secondary typing. Genesect and Scizor are the most notable, placing a halt to most sweeps with their STAB U-turn and possible Pursuit. Both Jirachi and Heatran wall her when placed in favorable weather. Ferrothorn is a huge annoyance to Latias lacking Substitute or the aforementioned Hidden Power Fire, stacking hazards with almost complete impunity. Bulky Excadrill can easily tank her STAB attacks and retaliate with Earthquake. Although rare, Metagross can checkmate Substitute-lacking Latias with Meteor Mash or Pursuit.</p>

    <p>Support Dark Arceus and utility counter Psychic Arceus with Payback easily defeat any Latias lacking Roar. Extreme Killer Arceus 2HKOes with ExtremeSpeed, but cannot safely switch into an all-out attacker Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock. Calm Mind Arceus formes such as Dark, Psychic, Steel, Ghost, Rock, Ice, and Bug generally check offensive pivot and all-out attacker quite well. Dark and Psychic Arceus are the most consistent; Steel Arceus outspeeds with Roar but is vulnerable to last-Pokemon Psyshock or sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire; Ghost and Rock Arceus under sandstorm are unable to defeat Psyshock variants at all; Ice and Bug Arceus are similar but have vulnerabilities to both Stealth Rock and sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire. However, all Calm Mind Arceus have issues against the specially defensive set. They also cannot defeat Roar defensive Calm Mind; Steel Arceus, the only exception, fights last-Pokemon Latias to a stalemate.</p>


    <p>Any faster Pokemon who is capable of OHKOing Latias can act as a revenge killer. These consist of strong physical Choice Scarf users such as Zekrom, Kyurem-B, Outrage Palkia, and Heracross, and those with natural Speed advantage such as Swords Dance Dragon Arceus and Outrage Kingdra under rain. Strong priority users such as Giratina-O and Mamoswine can also pick off weakened Latias. Darkrai can Dark Void and attempt to set up, but if Sleep Clause is activated or she already has a Calm Mind or Light Screen up, then its chance of victory will be slim.</p>

    <p>Should Latias lack Psyshock or Refresh, Chansey and Blissey with their ridiculous special bulk can stop most sweeps. Wobbuffet can use her as setup bait, but has a vulnerability to entry hazards and cannot actually defeat Latias. Ho-Oh can possibly be a fantastic check with its terrific special bulk and Regenerator, but its vulnerability to Stealth Rock along with Surf, Thunder, and Psyshock limits its potential. Sucker Punch Bisharp forces Latias out, but its paltry special bulk ensures that it won't be able to do so consistently.</p>

  2. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Offensive Calm Mind should easily be the first set. I'd also say merge the two in to one, with the offensive spread being the main option, and the defensive one ACed. Heatran can easily poison you if you lack Substitute or Refresh, Steel Arceus wins the CM war if you lack Roar. Refresh and Substitute should also be ACed. And I personally like Roost better, just because you can troll people to use Earthquake on you.
  3. Jibaku

    Jibaku Not taking FS requests atm.
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    This is a debatable point. Roar lets you win CM wars (like Psyshock), and abuse the heck out of entry hazards and punish Steels from switching in. Latias alone counters a lot of Pokemon and Roar just fits - you can continue Roaring as your opponent struggles to get in his/her one or two counters in. Furthermore, in the event of a failed Roar (you Roared in your counter), Latias can just switch out and come back in later, made easy due to her resistances, bulk, recovery, and Spikes immunity, and start the chain once more. Once her counters have been weakened significantly, she can simply Calm Mind and win the game.

    Also Genesect hasn't been released yet
  4. Superimp

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    The Offensive Calm Mind set being first will be implemented shortly. Remember, I'm still working on the skeleton! However, the placement of this set is subject to change based on QC. On your concerns about the Defensive Calm Mind set, it could be considered as a "stallbreaker."

    The two sets have different purposes. The offensive Calm Mind Latias aims mostly to sweep, while the Defensive one aims to be more defensive while not being a sitting duck like Gastrodon or Arceus-Grass. Also to break stall. Substitute and Refresh can be limiting on an offensive set because Latias needs the coverage. Plus, both of them require different teammates (negligible, but still). However, you make an excellent point. AC could work well as they are both Calm Mind sets. Again, I'll see what QC says about this matter. Thanks Furai for the reminders/concerns.

    NOTE: Concerning Roost, your Roost>Recover point was going to be in eventually. Recover was just a placeholder. Thanks for the reminder!

    --------------------------------------------------------------------

    Just a note to everyone, please READ the Status Report! It has my current status on the analysis. Thanks.

    EDIT: Jibaku, I'm still working on the skeleton! Your Roar point is very true though. In fact, I was just testing it! Regarding Genesect, that was supposed to go in Unreleased. Thanks for all these reminders. Really appreciate it.
  5. trickroom

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    Actually Specially Defensive Jirachi will likely win. It can just paralyze you and go for the 3HKO with Iron Head. The flinch rate is pretty high along with the fully paralysis rate. Also if you have Refresh means no secondary attacking option. Chances are Jirachi will beat you because Dragon Pulse isn't doing much to Careful 252 HP / 252 SpD Jirachi.

    Does the 64 SpD EVs lets you survive anything siginificant? I think 252 HP / 252 Spe is probably better. It's not worth losing the Speed tie against opposing Latias/Latios. Sometimes outspeeding Terrakion, neutral nature Arceus, and even Keldeo is pretty important.

    Jibaku: Roar lets you win CM wars (like Psyshock), and abuse the heck out of entry hazards and punish Steels from switching in. Latias alone counters a lot of Pokemon and Roar just fits <--- This means Roar should be the first option on the Defensive Calm Mind set.

    I don't like the Wish set. Latias has a lousy HP stat by Ubers standards. Protect sucks on a non leftovers wall. I will just drop it actually but what other QC members think? With 112 HP EVs the Wish can't really heal anything in Ubers more than 50%.

    Blissey/Chansey outclassed it really as a Wish passer. At least Jirachi has a better HP stat and more resistances. Also Jirachi has only an average Attack stat, Latias has amazing firepower with Soul Dew so she should just stick to the Calm Mind sets.

    Max Speed for the Dual Screen set, the Speed tie is really necessary as Lati@s are pretty common right now.

    Giratina-O and ExtremeKiller Arceus can pick you off with Shadow Sneak/ExtremeSpeed if you are ~50%. Excadrill beats you with Mold Breaker Earthquake or Shadow Claw, unless you have Surf or Hidden Power Fire in the appropriate weather. Besides Defensive Dark Arceus, Calm Mind Dark Arceus will always beat Latias one-on-one as it is immune to Psyshock.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  6. barry4ever

    barry4ever
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    Agree with everything trickroom said here basically. Max speed should be a necessity on all Latias sets imo, with Latias / Latios everywhere speed tying and killing an opposing Latias is very useful. Roar should be first slash on Defensive CM set 100% agree. I've always thought that Latias could abuse Roar extremely well. Substitute is practically useless pretty much imo. If you see something like a Blissey just siwtch out, not too hard.

    About dropping the Wish set, I'm on the fence about that. The thing is Latias has certain distinctive advantages about her Wish passing abilities. Namely, her longetivity is insane and LEVITATE. I'd much rather say merge the Dual Screens Set and Wish set into a single Support set, since I'm not seeing what the dual screen set is achieving over other screeners like Latios.

    Lastly, add Bulky Excadrill to Checks. If Latias doesnt have Surf, Excadrill is going to 2hko with Shadow Claw easily enough after SR most or the time or with Earthquake if it has Mold Breaker.

    QC Approved 2/3
  7. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    get rid of wish

    i think dual screens is pretty shit too, latias has better things to do (soul dew stuff), but if others like it i'm not gonna kick up a fuss

    other trickroom changes implemented then i'll stamp
  8. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Firstly, the Wish set seems kind of iffy. Latias has low HP, and Ubers have high HP. Wish isn't really helping much at all. If was good in gen 4, not any more.

    Secondly, there's no point running such an elaborate spread for Dual Screens. 212 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe Timid is good enough, IMO, to OHKO Palkia after SR with Soul Dew attached. I'd say always run max Speed on Latias now, since Terrakion is a thing.

    Lastly, I don't like the look of the defensive set. I see no point. Like I've said on multiple occasions, Latias is an offensive pivot, not a wall or stallbreaker. It's her ability to go on the offensive while retaining excellent bulk that makes her so good. If you want to run a specially defensive set to cover Kyogre, you may as well use Grass Arceus or Gastrodon. Latias does not need a defensive CM set. The only she ran it earlier this gen was because she didn't have Soul Dew.
  9. Superimp

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    Responses to QC

    I see my Status Report is working as planned! (/sarcasm) Jokes aside, don't worry about it as the current notice will be changed very soon as the current notice is changed. Anyway, here are my comments for each QC member that has recently posted.

    Replying to trickroom.
    Show Hide

    • Jirachi is implemented.
    • To be honest, those Sp. Def EVs were thrown there as a placeholder from EVs left over when the speed EVs were set to outspeed Garchomp. However, those 64 Sp. Def EVs can be used to give Latias a high chance of surviving two Choice Specs Ice Beams from Kyogre, assuming you Calm Mind before the second Ice Beam. Assuming my calculations are correct, without SR, there is only a 25% chance of being 2HKOed using those EVs, while 252 HP has a significantly higher 62.5% chance. However, with Stealth Rock being everywhere, this is probably impractical. I'll probably use your EVs, but please wait on EV stuff until later (Which is very soon). Thanks.
    • Roar is implemented. It's now the first option.
    • Concerning the Wish set, you are certainly correct. Latias' HP stat is quite mediocre in Ubers. The set is still somewhat viable though due to her ability to easily switch into many Pokemon and force them out. Levitate is a huge gift for a Wish passer as it grants her immunity to Spikes, something which Chansey/Blissey cannot boast. Though their Wishes heal significantly more HP, Chansey/Blissey slow down offensive teams, while Latias has the option of firing powerful Dragon Pulses. Latias can also make use of Healing Wish, which can be a valuable tool for any offense team. Overall, she is able to consistently Wish due to her bulk, Levitate, and offensive pivot nature, however small the Wishes may be. Jirachi does compete for a wish passer, but Latias has the perk of being able to counter Kyogre.
    Regardless of all these points, the Wish set is certainly much worse than last generation due to the points you have mentioned. As of now, I'm leaning towards putting this set in OO and merging some of its points into the Dual Screens set.
    • Max Speed for Dual Screens is implemented.
    • Excadrill, Extreme Killer, Arceus-Dark, and Giratina-O are implemented. I'm still working on the skeleton, remember?
    Thanks for the QC check trickroom. Appreciate the reminders.


    Replying to barry4ever.
    Show Hide

    • You can check my reply to trickroom for my response to his points.
    • Your speed EVs point is true. Will be implemented , but please wait on other EV stuff until later (which will be very soon).
    • As I said to trickroom, Roar will be the first slash. Concerning your point on Substitute, during testing, I found Refresh to be overall more useful than Substitute. Substitute is useful for stuff like Ferrothorn though. Does Refresh being slashed over Substitute work for you?
    • Your points about the Wish set are certainly true. Though you are on the fence, many of the other QC members are against this set (See Overall Opinion section below all these replies). For now, it will probably be placed in as an OO. I will attempt to merge the Dual Screens and parts of the Wish set together as an "overall" support set. It already has Wish and Healing Wish though.
    • Excadrill implemented. Remember, I'm still working on the skeleton!
    Thanks for the QC check and feedback barry4ever!


    Replying to Poppy.
    Show Hide

    • The Wish set will likely be moved to OO. Parts of it will be merged with the Dual Screens set as suggested by barry4ever. See my reply to trickroom for more details. Does this work for you?
    • I personally agree with you that the Dual Screens set is not the best. Other QC members seem to be fine with it though (Check Overall Opinion section below all these replies). For now, it will be staying.
    • You can check my reply to trickroom for my response to his points.
    Thanks for the input Poppy. I hope these changes work out for you.


    Replying to shrang.
    Show Hide

    • The Wish set will likely be moved to OO. See my reply to trickroom for more details. Does this work for you?
    • Thanks for the EV spread. Will be implemented, but please wait on other EV stuff until later (Which is very soon). Thanks.
    • I have already explained some of my reasoning for why the Defensive CM set should be kept in previous posts. Your points on the advantages of Offensive Calm Mind are true. The issue is, many of the other QC members seem to be fine with the set. When testing, I found the set to work pretty well. It also fulfills a different niche, helping Latias to fit on different teams and stay versatile. For now, it will stay as a set.
    Thanks for the input shrang.


    P.S. Jibaku, my response is in Post #4 of this thread. Thanks.
    _______________________________________

    Overall Opinions from QC/Everyone who has posted

    Offensive Calm Mind:

    • No major changes. Everyone seems to be fine with it.

    Defensive Calm Mind:


    • Furai and shrang disagree with it. Furai wants to merge Offensive Calm Mind and Defensive Calm Mind together. Defensive Calm Mind stuff (Roar, Refresh, etc.) would go into AC. shrang sees no point in having a Defensive Calm Mind set.
    • Jibaku, trickroom, barry4ever, and Poppy seem to be fine with it. I'm also fine with it.
    • It seems to be staying as a set for now.
    Wish Support:

    • trickroom, Poppy and shrang are against it.
    • barry4ever is unsure. He wants to merge Dual Screens with parts of the Wish set for an overall support set. I support this notion.
    • Unless there is sudden demand for the Wish set to stay as a set, it will be moved to OO. Wish will probably be emphasized on the Dual Screens set to make it more of a "Support" set.
    Dual Screens:

    • trickroom and shrang seem to be fine with it
    • barry4ever wants to merge Dual Screens with the Wish set for an overall support set.
    • Poppy seems to be against it. I'm also against it, at least in its current form.
    • For now, Dual Screens will stay as a set. I'll do some more testing though. An attempt will be made to merge Dual Screens and Wish together (It already has Healing Wish/Wish though). Maybe this set will become the "new" Support set.
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

    NOTE:
    There is another very interesting Latias set courtesy of Mr.lol that utilizes Reflect Type (Changes Latias' type into the opponent's type). This has its advantages though it is very situational. Should this be mentioned in AC, OO, or even a set?
  10. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I think it's OO material at best. It really only helps you versus Tyranitar and Scizor, and it's very situational once you take them down, as you said.
  11. gookie

    gookie Adominnustrata
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    ok stamp from me
  12. Go10

    Go10 Storm Vanguard !

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    Ok with the rest.
  13. Superimp

    Superimp

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    Replying to Go10:


    Arceus-Dragon being faster than Latias is implied in the overview notes already. I can make it more explicit if necessary though.

    Here's a question for you. If Latias had the option of keeping everything but her weakness to Dragon-type attacks, would she take it? You should know the answer.

    Latias' Dragon-type weakness still prevents her from switching into her fellow dragons in fear of their STAB Dragon-type attacks. This goes in the opposite direction of course, hence double-edged sword. It also causes her to generally switch out as you said from Choice Scarf users using STAB Dragon-type attacks.

    Other Dragon-type Pokemon can still bluff Choice Scarf.

    Max Power HP Fire is not listed as a slash because it lowers her speed. This defeats the purpose of trying to speed-tie with max speed Latias/Latios. However, the main reason for why HP Fire is an option is that without Psyshock/Thunder, Latias can't beat Calm Mind / Rest Kyogre as easily. Ho-Oh could be a problem too.

    It is important to note that Latias has other teammates to deal with Ferrothorn. For example, one could use Xatu as it is a fine counter. If you really wanted to deal with Ferrothorn using Latias, use HP Fire. But that's why it's an option :).

    Thunder Wave is mentioned.

    Skarmory is mentioned. I believe the Groudon point was struck through already, but that doesn't take away from the validity of your point.

    Noted.

    Roar is mentioned.

    Thanks for your feedback Go10! Much appreciated.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Could QC or anyone please check the merged set?
    Also, should the original Dual Screens set be kept or moved to OO due to this new merged set? Thanks.
  14. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    That's not really how c&c works :/

    The thing the first two set names are very misleading. "Offensive Calm Mind" makes it sound like this Latias set is supposed to be sweeping. While it could, Latias is much more useful due to its ability to check so many things and putting a huge amount of pressure on the opponent. For this reason, I think it should be renamed to something such as "Offensive Pivot" or the like (I'm not really good with names ;_;).

    Defensive Calm Mind makes it sound like a bulkier version of the previous set. This is utterly useless as you can simply mention you can add more bulk in the AC of the first set if this is the objective. However, that's not what you're shooting for I'm pretty sure. In my opinion, the defensive Calm Mind set should be entirely scrapped unless it is turned into something along the lines of a stallbreaker with Refresh or the like. There is really no reason to split up the sets for a more defensive EV spread if they are going to play identically. If the second set is trying to serve as a more bulky pivot it is uneeded. I realize there are different moves, but they still play extremely similar. The second set seems to be trying to actually sweep with Latias, while the first seems to be trying to check things. Also regardless of whether this happens it needs to be emphasized that Latias's EVs can be tailored to your team and the listed spread may not be "optimal" for you etc. Maybe you have a bulky ttar and have no desire to outspeed opposing Latis, so you can just run enough to outspeed Garchomp and so forth.

    Also some objective things:

    Don't slash Roost and Recover. Just put Recover; even if there is absolutely no difference, some noob will eventually post saying to use Recover over Roost so you keep ground immunity, so may as well just preempt it. Slashing both is just unnecessary. Also, there needs to be a space between the slashes (eg Roost / Recover > Roost/Recover ).
  15. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I second firecape. Heck, the Offensive CM can stallbreak better with Substitute or Refresh than the Defensive one. I do understand the "slowly boosting to achieve a sweep", but Latias puts enough pressure on the foe that makes that tactic useless.

    And I like Roost on Levitating Pokemon, it's cool for trolling ;0;
  16. Superimp

    Superimp

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    Replies to Recent Posters

    Here are my replies to firecape and Furai.

    Replying to firecape:
    Show Hide
    The reason why I had that previous status report was because I was literally at rough note stage. I was still editing points in. Because of this, it doesn't exactly help productivity if people posted suggestions that were going to be edited in anyway. It would just waste time.

    Though it is true I could have posted everything when the skeleton was finished, I decided to work in segments to show:

    1. I'm actually working on the skeleton
    2. I'm not procrastinating
    3. People can actually see a WIP skeleton so that they can possibly start planning major points they want addressed.
    Throughout this WIP skeleton, I was (and still am) testing/researching. Everything was subject to change. It is to be noted though that throughout this time period, the suffix of this thread was Placeholder, as in a sense it was placeholder.

    The reason why I didn't want people posting about EV spreads just yet was that I knew there would be controversy about them. The WIP skeleton wasn't ready for that discussion yet. Just check the Latias thread in the Ubers forum for an example.

    The point of allowing QC Members/Mods to post was that if they really wanted to give a reminder/note, they could do so. It was not my intention to restrict everyone's opinion, it was just so that I could actually type the skeleton up for their benefit.

    Unfortunately as the contents of this thread show, that specific status report didn't work as planned. Instead of "reminders," I got QC checks and points to mention. To be honest, my WIP skeleton wasn't exactly ready. Since the status report was ineffective, I placed it in past status reports, added a new one, and changed the suffix to Skeleton WIP.

    If what I am doing is not allowed or looked down upon by the majority of Smogon, please inform me and I will stop doing it immediately for the future. I apologize for any possible misinterpretation.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Concerning your point about names, I thought this was a rule:

    Don't use custom set names

    I didn't want to break that rule in anyway since it was my first C&C thread, so I just put placeholder names (AKA Offense/Defensive CM) even though they could possibly be misleading. In hind sight, I probably should have said "These names are placeholder." I would have much rather put "Offensive Pivot" or "Stallbreaker" instead like you stated. They could possibly be "better placeholders" until more appropriate names are found.

    You are correct on your points about the "Defensive CM" set. This set can possibly serve as a bulky stallbreaker. It plays very differently from the offensive version through its moveset. Roar, Refresh, and Substitute don't really have a place on an offensive set as it really needs the coverage. Like you stated, the "Offensive CM" set is an offensive pivot.

    "Defensive CM" Latias has extra bulk. This allows her to abuse Roar, Refresh, and Substitute more easily than the "Offensive CM" set. The "Offensive CM" set doesn't need as much defensive oriented EVs as it doesn't really need them for its purpose.

    The two sets aren't really that similar as they play differently, they have different roles on teams, and of course they have different moves. Right now, only you, Furai, and shrang are against it. Therefore, it will likely stay as a set until more QC members agree with placing it as AC (shrang is the only one who is against it).

    Concerning your Roost / Recover point, I might as well just put Recover as the only slash. The difference between Roost and Recover is kinda negligible. Perhaps I'll just put a OO mention about them.

    Your comments about different speed EVs will all be going into AC. Your / point will be noted for future reference.

    Thank you for your input firecape!

    Replying to Furai:
    Show Hide

    Just check my reply to firecape for my response to his points.

    I believe I have already explained why Roar / Refresh / Substitute is not ideal for the Offensive CM set. If it did run them, it wouldn't exactly do its intended role as effectively. In reality, "Defensive CM" Latias does boost up slowly to achieve a sweep, but not precisely the way you put it. She wants to slowly boost up with the support of Roar / Refresh / Substitute, which can help break stall; this is something the "Offensive CM" set struggles to do without. The EV placement is quite important. In other words, it's just a different way of using Latias. She wouldn't exactly be as versatile if she restricted herself to just the "Offensive CM" set ;).

    Your Roost point was addressed in my reply to firecape.

    Thanks Furai for your input!


    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Here are some relevant points obtained from these replies:

    • "Offensive Calm Mind" set name is changed to "Offensive Pivot" (Placeholder)
    • "Defensive Calm Mind" set name is changed to "Stallbreaker" (Placeholder)
    • For all Roost / Recover mentions, just put Recover as the only slash and possibly discuss Roost / Recover in OO.
    • AC discusses speed benchmarks
    • Spaces between / for slashes.
    As of now, these are implemented into the analysis.

    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Again, could QC or anyone please check the merged "Support" set?
    Also, should the original Dual Screens set be kept or moved to OO due to this new merged set? Thanks.

    If there's anything that I have possibly missed, please post before I start writing this up (I'm hoping to write this soon).
  17. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Name: Support
    Move 1: Reflect / Light Screen / Protect
    Move 2: Recover / Wish
    Move 3: Roar / Healing Wish
    Move 4: Dragon Pulse
    Item: Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spd

    I don't really like this set. Sure Latias can do dual screens but she is better off doing something nothing else can do. Latios is usually better with Dual Screens because Memento eases Baton Pass chains. Again, Latias's Wish is pretty small. Healing Wish sounds nice but it is generally not worth sacrificing Latias. I don't think Latias should use such a Support set to be honest but I would like the rest of the QC team to think about it. Latias can switch around easily but you can just attack the opposing team instead of trying to heal your own team with small wishes.

    If you are just phazing and setting up screens but not using your offense much, you are better off with Lugia.
  18. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    You really should mention Substitute and Refresh on the Offensive Calm Mind set in AC, with Refresh as the prior option, so you could outstall Toxic. You should also mention how well Latias owns Gliscor with Refresh, which is HUGE for pretty much any team. She also beats Fighting Arceus which can be nice to a Stall team.


    EDIT: Genesect is out!
  19. asterat

    asterat

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    In DPP Almost no need for max speed, run just enough to outspeed chomp.

    TR edit: Now with the popularity of Latias and Latios, max Speed is necessary to at least win the Speed Tie which can decide a win/loss. Outspeeding non Scarf Terrakion and neutral nature Arceus helps way more than a little extra bulk.
  20. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Thanks to Colonel_M's RMT, I actually think Latias deserves an all out attacker set as well. The bulk can separate it apart from Latios and this set gives Latias a balance of both. Basically the same as Latios but trades power for more bulk, pretty useful for teams seeking a reliable Kyogre check. Latios falls to Choice Scarf Water Spout in two hits actually.

    Latias does not hit like a pussy anyway. Dragon STAB is awesome and with Soul Dew, Latias's Special Attack is quite high.

    Here's the set:

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 120 HP / 136 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Roost
    - Draco Meteor
    - Thunder / Grass Knot
    - Surf / Hidden Power Fire

    Basically this depends on your team. Thunder and Surf for rain based teams, Grass Knot and Hidden Power Fire otherwise. Grass Knot nails Groudon, Ground Arceus and friends, Hidden Power Fire wrecks Ferrothorn and deals heavy damage to Jirachi. Thunder still hits quite many Ubers including Kyogre and Lugia.

    This set beats Excadrill in the appropriate weather. Draco Meteor is this set's main attraction though. No longer you have to fear Giratina-O surviving your Dragon Pulse at full health and KOing you with Dragon Tail / Outrage, Draco Meteor OHKOes easily. Draco Meteor also strips off huge amounts of damage from Dialga and totally makes Giratina cry. OHKOing Ho-Oh after SR without any boost and relying on Thunder is something cool. Psyshock is useless because it does not gain many KOes except the 2HKO on Fighting Arceus. The good thing about Latias spamming Draco Meteor is, Latias is practically not harmed much by hazards thanks to Levitate and Roost, so it can easily switch around.

    You could try 252 SpA / 252 Spe, but at that point, you might as well use Latios. 252 HP / 252 Spe is a bit too weak for a set like this. Latias should focus on attacking and scaring things off anyway, like a pivot. If you are using Hidden Power Fire ( You can no longer win the Speed Tie ), dropping the Speed to 196 Evs for Garchomp and putting the rest into bulk is fine. You will lose vs non Scarf Terrakion though and this set can OHKO Terrakion easily with Grass Knot or Surf in rain and Draco Meteor.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Can i ask what exactly does the ev spread accomplish in the first set? What do those 52 HP accomplish? They seem too little, as without more bulk, Latias can't even do her main job, check Kyogre, as Ice Beam and Water Spout from ScarfOgre both have a chance to 2hko after SR (Ice Beam a great chance, and WS a small chance). So why not put enough HP to avoid the 2hko from those moves?
  22. polop

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    The HP evs were actually just placed there IIRC, only after the rest of the EVs were drained. The other EVs are needed to speed tie with Lati@s and keep the ability to OHKO Palkia regardless of Rocks.

    However, you aren't the only one that has complained about that. Poppy also supported keeping the EVs the same as last gens, and I also dislike its lowered bulk. WE NEED QC INPUT!

    EDIT: @Superimp, the current Status report is fine :D.
  23. Superimp

    Superimp

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    Replies to alexwolf and Mr.lol

    Replying to alexwolf (and Mr.lol indirectly):

    Hopefully Mr.lol's answer should be sufficient. It is important to realize that max speed is essential for an offensive pivot. However, like you said, bulk can be important. That's why in AC, I specifically made a mention on how Latias can be given extra bulk in exchange for less speed depending on the team. Anyway, here are some important bulk benchmarks concerning Choice Scarf Kyogre:

    88 HP = Latias can never be 2HKOed by Modest Choice Scarf Kyogre Water Spout (rain) after SR

    252 HP = Latias has a 0.39% of being 2HKOed by Modest Choice Scarf Kyogre Ice Beam after SR


    Currently, the All-Out Special Attacker has 88 HP EVs. The Stallbreaker has 252 HP EVs. If you want an arguably more reliable Kyogre check than Offensive Pivot, perhaps a variation on Offensive Pivot or a different set might be suitable. Hope this helps alexwolf.

    Replying to Mr.lol (directly):

    Thanks for the prompt response to alexwolf. Please check the status report. Is this fine?
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Ok thx for clarifying guys!
  25. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Like I said on IRC, I am not sold on the support set. If you really want a Healing Wish user, you're better off with Cresselia; atleat she can defeat Rayquaza and other physical threats, and she's so annoying to take down. If you want a Wish user, why settle with Latias's mediocre HP? Go with Chansey or even Jirachi if you're paranoid of Kyurem-W (and you should be). I agree with everything trickroom has said, you would not want to sacrifice Latias and keep switching around when you can actually do some damage.

    For the Stallbreaker, an EV spread of 228 HP / 40 SpA / 240 Spe can be used. 40 SpA guarantee the kill on Palkia with Stealth Rock, 240 Spe outspeeds Terrakion and 228 HP is a filler. Modest Kyogre has 3.91% to 2HKO with Ice Beam after Stealth Rock.

    Specially Defensive is okay with me. It can actually take on both Kyogre AND Mewtwo at the same time. Show me another Pokemon that can do that. Specially Defensive Giratina takes too much from Specs Kyogre and Psystrike does a lot. Latias also has a Spikes immunity which can really pay off often. Status sucks though, so mention that somewhere Superimp.

    Great work as always.

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