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Latias (Ubers Analysis) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Superimp, Jul 7, 2012.

  1. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    I still don't like the "stallbreaker" set. Latias in no way, breaks stall. Ever. Since Roar is your main slash, you're still losing to Ferrothorn, losing to Toxic, losing to pretty much everything you'd normally lose to. It does nothing that the first set does not do already. If you really want to run Refresh, you can just slash onto the first set. Latias is bulky enough as it is without much investment. I see no reason why we can't just AC a more defensive spread with the support options (Roar, Refresh, Substitute). Like I said, running so much bulk on Latias is just defeating the point of using Latias entirely. The reason Latias is so good is because with Soul Dew, she does not need to invest significantly in bulk to do her job, which means she can invest more in offenses. If you really want to run a stallbreaker set, I can't see why you wouldn't use something like CM mono Dragon Arceus for pretty much better results.

    As for the other sets, I just don't know what to say. What are these "Specially Defensive" and "Support" sets doing? Why have we split the Dual Screens set up to two even worse sets? If any of you thought Dual Screens was questionable, then I have no idea what you see in these two sets.

    Oh the other hand, Latias is much faster, has offenses that actually exist, as well as being able to switch into Kyogre, Palkia and a whole host of other threats. I'm not saying the support set is good, but you cannot write off Dual Screens like that. You might say Dual Screens is also not very good because it involves sacrificing Latias, but you should also be aware of when to sacrifice Latias. In more offensive teams, you don't need to keep Latias alive, you only need her to switch in once or twice (into Kyogre, generally), set up screens and continue your onslaught. I'm also very skeptical of the Specially Defensive set. It does NOT beat Mewtwo apart from phazing it ONCE. +1 Psystrike does 54.12% - 63.74% and you cannot KO it in any way.

    So yeah, I'd just suggest scrapping SpD and the support set, then bring back Dual Screens.
  2. trickroom

    trickroom
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    Why are we even mentioning Lucario in Ubers anymore? Just drop it off and if you run max Special Attack trading for bulk, you might as well just go with Latios.

    Furai: EV spread of 228 HP / 40 SpA / 240 Spe can be used.
    I disagree with this, max Speed is standard on all Latias sets now. Drop it from HP, 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe. Max Speed is for other Latias not Terrakion.

    Specially Defensive seems rather bad to me though. You don't beat Mewtwo at all. You can only phaze it out once, [ +1 Ice Beam still 2HKOes, Psytrike 2HKOes too ] something Giratina and Lugia can do as well. What is worse is that how is Latias actually killing bulky Kyogre with no Special Attack EVs and Dragon Pulse as your only Attack? Calm Mind Kyogre will beat you in the end and you only get to phaze it out instead of defeating it one-on-one. At that point, you should use Grass Arceus, Ludicolo or Gastrodon. I agree with shrang here, Latias does NEED the power and coverage moves.

    One more thing, for the Specially Defensive set, Kyogre can still 2HKO you with Specs Ice Beam, and any critical hit or freeze means you lose. 0 SpA Latias Dragon Pulse is never a 2HKO on max HP Kyogre. I know you can come in on it, and set up screens, then Roost but you might as well just use Grass Arceus/Gastrodon/Ludicolo for stalling out Kyogre.

    I am fine with the stallbreaker set but please change the name to something else. It never breaks stall since Roar is the main option, shrang already said that. The weak initial power is still OK when you have Calm Mind, it lets you set up easier on things like Grass Arceus or Fighting Arceus. The beauty of this set, is that Latias can Calm Mind alongside things like Electric Arceus then Roar them out. Roar also lets Latias abuse Spikes to wear down foes like Ferrothorn. Since Spikes is common, Levitate is a big advantage over Arceus.

    Support set is bad, Latias wants to hit back hard not sit there. Gastrodon, Grass Arceus, Ludicolo, Lugia, Giratina and Blissey all do the pure support thing better.

    Agreeing with shrang, scrap SpD and the support sets. Latias does not need so many sets anyway.
    Dual Screens is optional to me. It isn't really good but it does have some useful advantages over Cresselia.
  3. Superimp

    Superimp

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    Superimp's Response

    Sorry about the length of the post. I did not want to double post.

    ------​

    Here are my replies to Furai, shrang and trickroom.

    Replying to Furai:
    Show Hide
    As of the moment, Substitute and Refresh are implemented into the AC of Offensive Pivot. Both the advantages and disadvantages of running such moves for Offensive Pivot will be mentioned (EX: Refresh against Gliscor, Offensive Pivot not reaching notable bulk benchmarks, loss of offensive coverage, etc.)

    Genesect has been implemented into the Checks / Counters section. Thanks for the reminder Furai!

    Concerning your points on the Support set, please check my comments in the next section.

    For main EV spread concerns, please check my comments in the next, next section.

    Your points on the Specially Defensive set are valid; they will be implemented into the SC.

    Thanks for the input and feedback Furai!

    Replying to shrang:
    Show Hide

    I am quite aware of your opinion on the validity of the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind set as seen from your previous post(s). However, unless you manage to convince the rest of QC that Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind belongs in AC, it will remain a set. Currently, you are the only QC member who really has a problem with the set. Please check the previous posts / trickroom’s post / bulk benchmarks for some possible reasons on why you would run such a set if you are interested.

    The aforementioned also applies to the Dual Screens set to some extent. Please take a look at some previously stated opinions:

    Right now, it seems that everyone besides you either does not like the set, they are on the fence, or they tell me that it is optional. Unless you manage to convince the rest of QC that the Dual Screens set should be mentioned as a set, it is likely that it will remain in OO.

    --------​

    Concerning your other points shrang, the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind set might benefit from a name change. As I previously told firecape, the name is currently a placeholder until something more appropriate is found. In light of the points made by both you and trickroom, perhaps "Defensive Calm Mind" was the better name after all. There is even some precedent for it as seen with Arceus-Water’s analysis.

    As a note on CM Arceus-Dragon, while it is true that Arceus-Dragon has much better Physical Defense, Speed, and less weaknesses, Latias has some noticeable advantages such as Levitate, Soul Dew, ability to deal with Kyogre, other CM Arceus, etc., and much more. These advantages are just something to keep in mind.

    Concerning the Support and Specially Defensive sets, please check my comments in the next section.

    Thanks for your feedback and input shrang.

    Replying to trickroom:
    Show Hide

    Your All-Out Attacker set suggestion has been accepted. The set seemed to work quite nicely in testing, and it appeals to those who want their Latias to be a hit-and-run attacker along with some fantastic special bulk. It is now the third set.

    I see you noticed my Lucario mention trickroom. It was actually meant to be an interesting fact, as I found it a bit amusing on how 168 SpA EVs allows Draco Meteor to 2HKO Lucario. This is why I mentioned “coincidentally”. But rest assured that in the actual analysis, Lucario will not be mentioned.

    You points on why it is not recommended for All-Out Attacker to run maximum SpA EVs are definitely valid. I agree with you - this is why the set does not actually run maximum SpA EVs.

    Concerning main EV spread suggestions, please check my comments in the next, next section.

    Regarding your points on the Support and Specially Defensive sets, please check my comments in the next section.

    Concerning names, the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind set might benefit from a name change. As I previously told firecape and shrang, the name is just a placeholder until something more appropriate is found. In light of the points made by both you and shrang, perhaps “Defensive Calm Mind” was the better name after all. There is even some precedent for it as seen with Arceus-Water's analysis.

    Thanks for all the feedback and input trickroom. I really appreciate the All-Out Attacker set suggestion too. It's a nice set – credits go to both you for the actual set and Colonel M for the inspiration!

    ------------------------------------------------​

    For those who wonder why the Support set was even considered, realize that it was an attempt to legitimize a possible blend between the Wish and Dual Screens set, both of which have not received enough positive QC feedback to justify their existence as a standalone set.

    With the suggestion of barry4ever in mind, I have tried to create a possible, viable Support set. Perhaps I have not put enough effort into crafting such a set. Nevertheless, my attempts have ultimately resulted in failure. As Furai, shrang, trickroom, and many others have pointed out, there seem to be too many problems with the Support set as it so stands. Members have noted that her Wishes are too small, that sacrificing her with Healing Wish is generally not worth it, that she is not using her offenses effectively, that she is unable to even Light Screen on Kyogre’s Modest Choice Specs Ice Beam after SR guaranteed, and much more. I myself through my own testing have found her performance to be overall underwhelming – I imagine she simply tries to be too many things at once, doing everything a bit ineffectively. It should come as no surprise that I'm currently leaning towards placing the Support set in OO where the Wish and Dual Screens set currently reside.

    Concerning Specially Defensive Latias, this set is an attempt to broaden her options to appeal to as many Latias users as possible. Perhaps you might say this set challenges the paradigm that Latias should be "constrained" to the roles of offensive pivot, CM sweeping, or all-out attacking. That Latias has little need to run bulk. The truth is, there are so many differing opinions on what makes Latias Latias. Maybe you are someone like shrang, passionate supporter of the Offensive Pivot (and Dual Screens). Perhaps you are someone who really likes the Stallbreaker / Defensive Calm Mind like Manaphy. Maybe you are like trickroom, Hugendugen, or Poppy and don't mind using All-Out Attacker. Or maybe you just have completely different opinions on what the EV spreads should be like. Simply put, Latias has a different "flavor" for everybody. But doesn't this apply to Specially Defensive as well? When one can clearly see that some people might actually gravitate towards such a set according to Moveset analysis?

    Throughout my testing, Specially Defensive Latias seemed to show more promise than the Support, Wish, or Dual Screens set. I'm probably not the most experienced user of a Specially Defensive Latias; I tend to use the Defensive Calm Mind and Offensive Pivot All-Out Attacker sets as I personally find them to be overall more useful for Latias. I'm not going to force down these opinions on everyone though, as I imagine many people see this as plain rude. However, based on my experience of actually using a Specially Defensive Latias, I can honestly tell you that the feats she can do are simply unrivaled. This set takes full advantage of the Soul Dew boost to perform tasks that are impossible for an offensively inclined Latias, or for that matter any Pokemon, to accomplish.

    Please check this link to see some notable excerpts of actual testing (Besides the first log… I couldn't find anyone who spammed unboosted Ice Beam / Psystrikes after SR). These logs range from being possibly boring to outright insane. It is important to note that Latias can possibly do all these roles at the same time, even if you stack her field with every single entry hazard imaginable.

    Specially Defensive Latias has titanic special bulk. She may not have the special bulk that Blissey, Chansey, or Multiscale Lugia can boast. But it is still respectable – this set has around 6.8% more special bulk than Specially Defensive Giratina while not even running maximum SpD investment (Not counting Leftovers). Combined with her resistances, this "thing" takes special hits very well. No other Latias set comes even close to how well this set deals with Choiced Kyogre. Moreover, Specially Defensive Latias counters ANY standard Kyogre variant (Including Thunder Wave; its Ice Beam is far too weak to overcome her defense). Although it is definitely true that CM Kyogre sets can be an issue when they are the last Pokemon, this set easily phazes them if they are not, can set up Light Screen to allow other teammates to deal with them more effectively, or simply get in first and spam Roar to rack up entry hazard damage. This set also remains reasonably fast – she still has enough Speed to outspeed any non-Choice Scarf neutral Base 90 or 95 Speed Pokemon depending on her EV spread.

    There is one major problem with Specially Defensive Latias - her overall lack of offensive power. Even though an unboosted Dragon Pulse is not exactly weak, it is not exactly strong either. This means that Specially Defensive Latias can be detrimental to momentum if not used properly, while her offensive pressure is not exactly the best. Still, Latias has Light Screen and Roar. Oh, and anyone who dares to switch in a special response may be in for a rude awakening.

    As the writer of this analysis, it is my intention to be as open-minded about all viable aspects of Latias as possible. If people happen to have a demand for a certain, viable aspect of Latias, then I imagine there is little reason for me to not test it. This can be seen when I tested the All-Out Attacker for trickroom (Accepted), or Reflect Type for Mr.lol indirectly (Sorry Mr.lol, I think that's AC for Defensive CM). This is the fundamental reason on why I'm really testing a Specially Defensive Latias - people seem to be using it, so I'm trying to find a possible, viable set for these people. All I'm really doing as the writer of this analysis is giving a bit of a "nudge"; the Smogon community will ultimately decide which sets will show up in the analysis.

    Overall, I have found the Specially Defensive set to be reasonably useful through actual testing. In fact, I imagine this set might just have a place as an official set, giving a nice four set symmetry with the analysis of Latios for aesthetics (Brother/Sister theme). However, if you guys overall find the Specially Defensive set to "suck" after some of your own testing, then it will obviously be removed. In essence, I have the willingness to adapt your ideas to benefit the community as a whole, and will use this in combination with my own Uber metagame knowledge and testing to ensure that when the analysis is finally finished, it will be of the quality that Smogon is known for.

    --------------------------------------------------- ​

    It is from the continuation of this train of thought that perhaps the time has finally arrived to determine the ideal main EV spread for each set once and for all.

    Here is a list of notable Kyogre bulk benchmarks that Latias can strive for:

    [box]
    • 40 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Timid Ice Beam with SR is unable to 2HKO after a Reflect Type
    • 80 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest Ice Beam is a guaranteed 3HKO [No SR]
      • Choice Specs Timid Water Spout (full power & rain) can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
    • 88 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest (full power & rain) Water Spout is a guaranteed 3HKO after SR
    • 132 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Timid Ice Beam is a guaranteed 3HKO after SR
    • 168 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam with SR is unable to 2HKO after a Reflect Type
    • 204 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Modest (full power & rain) Water Spout can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
    • 236 HP EVs Timid = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam is unable to 2HKO through Light Screen [No SR]
    • 252 HP EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest Ice Beam is essentially a guaranteed 3HKO after SR.
      • Choice Specs Timid Ice Beam can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
    • 252 HP EVs & 12 SpD EVs Timid = Choice Specs Timid Water Spout (full power & rain) with SR can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind
    • 252 HP EVs & 16 SpD EVs Timid = Choice Scarf Modest Ice Beam is a guaranteed 3HKO after SR.

    • 252 HP EVs Calm = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind [No SR]
    • 252 HP EVs & 16 SpD EVs Calm = Choice Specs Modest (full power & rain) Water Spout with SR can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind
    • 252 HP EVs & 32 SpD EVs Calm = Choice Specs Modest Ice Beam with SR is unable to 2HKO through Light Screen
    • 252 HP EVs & 52 SpD EVs Calm = Choice Specs Timid Ice Beam with SR can never 2HKO after a Calm Mind
    [/box]

    Here is my current slate for possible main EV spreads:

    [SCROLL=20]
    CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF OFFENSIVE PIVOT:

    1. 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
      • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
      • 208 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost (Which now guarantees against 4 SpD Palkia)
      • 48 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - doesn’t reach any notable benchmarks
    2. 60 HP / 208 SpA / 240 Spe Timid
      • 240 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Terrakion
      • 208 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost (Which now guarantees against 4 SpD Palkia)
      • 60 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - doesn’t reach any notable benchmarks
    3. 100 HP / 216 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
      • 192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
      • 216 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard (and others) Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
      • 100 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 88 HP EVs reached - ensures that SR damage is at a minimum like the other EV spreads
    CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF DEFENSIVE CALM MIND:

    1. 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid
      • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
      • 252 HP = Greatest amount of overall bulk with greatest possible Speed - benchmarks up to 252 HP EVs reached
      • 4 Def = Remaining EVs go into Defense
    2. 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
      • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
      • 40 SpA = Dragon Pulse with SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
      • 216 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 204 HP EVs reached
    3. 252 HP / 40 SpA / 24 SpD / 192 Spe Timid
      • 192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
      • 40 SpA = Dragon Pulse with SR OHKOes standard Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
      • 252 HP & 24 SpD = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 252 HP EVs & 16 SpD EVs reached
    CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF ALL-OUT ATTACKER:

    1. 88 HP / 168 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
      • 252 Spe = Speed tie other Speed boosting Base 110 Speed Pokemon
      • 88 HP = Bulk benchmarks up to 88 HP EVs reached
      • 168 SpA = Remaining EVs go into SpA to boost overall damage - Draco Meteor easily 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina without SR
    2. 100 HP / 164 SpA / 244 Spe Timid
      • 252 Spe = Outspeed positive base 108 Speed Pokemon like Garchomp
      • 164 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed, Grass Knot with 1 layer of Spikes OHKOes 252 HP Groudon guaranteed after -1 SpA IV drop, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
      • 164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
    3. 164 HP / 152 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
      • 192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
      • 152 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed, will always break Gliscor's Substitute at -6, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
      • 164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
    4. 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe Timid
      • 196 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp after -1 Spe IV drop
      • 148 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed after -1 SpA IV drop, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
      • 164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
    5. 148 HP / 164 SpA / 196 Spe Timid
      • 196 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp after -1 Spe IV drop
      • 164 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed, Grass Knot with 1 layer of Spikes OHKOes 252 HP Groudon guaranteed after -1 SpA IV drop, and maximizes Soul Dew boost
      • 148 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads
    CURRENT SLATE FOR MAIN EV SPREAD OF SPECIALLY DEFENSIVE:

    1. 252 HP / 12 Def / 148 SpD / 96 Spe Calm - Bulk Focus - Takes hits more effectively than the other EV spreads
    2. 252 HP / 24 SpA / 136 SpD / 96 Spe Calm - Special Attack Focus - Can now OHKO Rayquaza guaranteed without SR
    3. 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe Calm - Speed Focus - Can now outspeed non-Choice Scarf neutral Base 95 Speed Pokemon. Despite the loss in bulk, she can still take on Mewtwo, super effective CM Arceus, etc. without SR; more risky if you take them on with SR on her field.
    [/SCROLL]

    It would be really appreciated if you guys voiced your opinions on which options from the slate work best for each set. Feel free to justify your choice or possibly provide new viable EV spreads to go on the slate. Hopefully the benchmarks I provided should aid with your decision.

    All your posts will be used to eventually decide the main EV spreads for each set. Just mention the set, the slate options you think fit best, possible justification, and then post/PM/VM/whatever! Even if your desired option from the slate is not chosen, it is very likely that it will show up in AC in some form or the other.

    Everyone's input is welcomed! Choose the options that you feel are most optimal for Latias's performance, that you have found to work most effectively.

    EDIT:

    Regarding EV Spreads, I have received input from four members currently.
    Current Opinions (open)

    Furai - NOTE: QC
    • Offensive Pivot = 1.
    • Defensive Calm Mind = 2.
    • All-Out Attacker = 4.
    • Specially Defensive = 3.
    Poppy - NOTE: QC
    • Offensive Pivot = 3.
    • Defensive Calm Mind = 1.
    • All-Out Attacker = 3. NOTE: Has not commented on 4. or 5.
    • Specially Defensive = 3.
    trickroom - NOTE: QC

    • Offensive Pivot = 1.
    • Defensive Calm Mind = No Comment Yet (Assumed 2.)
    • All-Out Attacker = 4. (Assumed based on Post #30)
    • Specially Defensive = No Comment Yet
    Superimp - NOTE: Self-explanatory

    • Offensive Pivot = 1.
    • Defensive Calm Mind = 1.
    • All-Out Attacker = 4.
    • Specially Defensive = 1. or 3. -> Interchangeable, but 3. preferred


    Regarding Set Order, I have received input from six members currently.
    Current Opinions (open)

    Poppy - NOTE: QC

    1. All-Out Attacker
    2. Specially Defensive
    3. Defensive Calm Mind
    4. Offensive Pivot
    Mr.lol - NOTE: Has tested all four sets personally.

    1. Specially Defensive
    2. Defensive Calm Mind
    3. All-Out Attacker
    4. Offensive Pivot
    Furai - NOTE: QC

    1. All-Out Attacker
    2. Offensive Pivot
    3. Defensive Calm Mind
    4. Specially Defensive
    shrang - NOTE: QC

    1. CM Latias
    2. All-Out Attacker
    3. Specially Defensive
    trickroom - NOTE: QC

    1. CM Latias -> Interchangeable as 1 or 2
    2. All-Out Attacker -> Interchangeable as 1 or 2
    3. Specially Defensive
    Superimp - NOTE: Self-explanatory

    1. All-Out Attacker
    2. Defensive Calm Mind
    3. Specially Defensive
    4. Offensive Pivot
    SCORE: All-Out Attacker wins based on IRV method. Defensive Calm Mind is second place. Specially Defensive is third place. Offensive Pivot is last place.
  4. gookie

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    100 HP / 216 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
    192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
    216 SpA = Dragon Pulse without SR OHKOes standard (and others) Palkia guaranteed + maximizes Soul Dew boost
    100 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - benchmarks up to 88 HP EVs reached - ensures that SR damage is at a minimum like the other EV spreads

    this is the best; latias shouldn't try and stay in on other latias, and the extra bulk is really needed. having a chance to be 2hkoed by modest scarf ice beam after sr (52 HP) is unacceptable.

    164 HP / 152 SpA / 192 Spe Timid
    192 Spe = Outspeed non-Choice Scarf Jolly Garchomp
    152 SpA = Draco Meteor without SR 2HKOes Specially Defensive Giratina guaranteed & maximizes Soul Dew boost while also allowing...
    164 HP = Remaining EVs go into bulk - bulk benchmarks up to 132 HP EVs reached - minimizes SR damage like the other EV spreads

    similar reasons for speed tier and added bulk, i use something very similar to this.

    i haven't used sdef so i will not comment (it's a waste :D)
  5. trickroom

    trickroom
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    I will agree with Poppy's All-out-Attacker spread. Latias works well without needing to go max Speed as long as you have another Latias counter such as Genesect/Ferrothorn.

    192 Speed is a good bench mark and for the Draco Meteor set, use 160 HP / 152 SpA / 196 Spe because Hidden Power Fire should be the main slash. Getting rid of your usual counters in one hit is what makes All-out-Attacker Latias so special. Grass Knot or Thunder are both useful but Grass Knot pairs better with sun. 152 SpA is good enough for Latias and that bulk really helped when I tried it. That said, don't be mad and go with Modest lol.

    For Calm Mind Offensive Latias, any spread can work but QC people ( Jibaku, shrang, barry, Furry ) agreed on max Speed. That will probably stay and just mention 192 Spe in AC.
  6. gookie

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    changed my mind, specially defensive is pretty good (read the logs). having a good switch in to all cm arceus, deoxys-a and mewtwo, in addition to not fearing any kyogre except thunder wave is very cool indeed.

    i've talked to superimp about the EVs for them on irc and he's going to see if he can come up with a spread that outspeeds rayquaza, as that is fairly important.

    edit: I think QC members need to re-weigh in on the set order (preferably after some discussion on IRC) as it is at a highly contentious stage right now, furthermore this will also give us a good opportunity to discuss all the EV spreads. After exchanging words with superimp on irc today I think we have some serious talking to do.

    As it stands my set order is

    1. All-Out Attacker - Latias's primary objective is to check Kyogre and throw out powerful attacks, the prevalence of Genesect and Ferrothorn, especially the former, make it quite difficult to pull off a Calm Mind sweep, and usually (imo) Latias is better attacking off the bat; therefore, the set which packs the best blend of power, coverage, and bulk should be the first set. The offensive pivot is solidly 2HKOed by Ice Beam after Stealth Rock from Choice Scarf Kyogre, the defensive Calm Mind set doesn't have instant momentum, and the specially defensive set is in the same boat (while actually performing more roles than defensive Calm Mind...). Offensive pivot struggles with the use of just Dragon Pulse as its STAB, Palkia and Giratina-O require large amounts of investment to get guaranteed OHKOes, notably compromising Latias's excellent bulk, All-Out Attacker remedies this with the use of Draco Meteor, in sun Hidden Power Fire also crushes its conventional checks of Jirachi and Ferrothorn, although going toe-to-toe with Body Slam or Thunder Wave Jirachi is risky (Thunder is less so and actually quite a common move considering Jirachi is always used with rain). In rain Surf and Thunder both deal massive damage to overeager Genesect, and remove bulky Excadrill as a check entirely, as it is OHKOed by rain Surf.

    The obvious downfalls are that mispredictions with Draco Meteor may lead you in an icky situation with a -2 Latias facing a set up sweeper, moreover in certain situations Latias will certainly wish it had the option to boost. However, situations in which Latias is facing a Choice Scarf Genesect or any of its checks that can still stop it despite boosting are far more common than the two I described above (the most threatening booster, DD Ray, still cannot set up on -2 Draco Meteor). As such, I believe All-Out Attacker to be the most useful in the situations it commonly finds itself in, i.e. VS a choice-locked Kyogre, i.e. I believe Latias values its ability to be instantly threatening more than its ability to boost in its most commonly encountered scenarios.

    Also check out these calcs kindly provided by superimp for -2 Draco Meteor!

    -2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Adamant Life Orb Air Lock Rayquaza : 308-366 (87.74 - 104.27%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Hasty Choice Scarf Palkia : 246-290 (76.63 - 90.34%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Modest Choice Specs Turboblaze Reshiram : 246-290 (72.14 - 85.04%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Choice Scarf Teravolt Zekrom : 288-338 (84.21 - 98.83%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Modest Choice Specs Turboblaze Kyurem-W : 284-336 (72.63 - 85.93%) -- 81.25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Adamant Choice Band Teravolt Zekrom : 288-338 (71.28 - 83.66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    -2 168 SpA Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latias Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Naughty Griseous Orb Levitate Giratina-O : 318-374 (72.1 - 84.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    So even moderately bulky Dragons looking to take advantage of a -2 Draco Meteor by pivoting back in after switching to a resist can still be met by a nasty surprise.

    All-Out Attacker provides the best blend of bulk and power, which I think should be Latias's primary objectives.

    2. Specially Defensive - Why no.2? Because I believe that All-Out Attacker is the best Latias set that focuses on its commonly seen goals, attacking and defending. This set, however, checks and counters Pokemon that all the other sets fail to do, giving it a really fucking cool niche and excellent utility. Essentially, I view Defensive Calm Mind and Offensive Pivot as inferior versions of All-Out Attacker in most regards, despite obviously having the potential to boost Genesect can still stop your sweep at any time.

    3. Defensive Calm Mind - Outside of Genesect and Ferrothorn the most common way to deal with Latias is to Toxic it, giving this set a distinct niche in outright sweeping teams that rely on Toxic Skarmory or Forretress to deal with Latias.

    4. Offensive Pivot - Yes, last set. Poor bulk, good power, but outdone by All-Out Attacker imo. Can sweep very occasionally, but conventional Latias checks Genesect, Ferrothorn, and Jirachi still beat it more often than not. Taking that into account it has less utility than set no.1, having lower bulk and less coverage.

    I know both CM sets have a niche as pretty much beating everything else except Mewtwo in a Calm Mind war, but Specially Defensive does that too, and more. Switching into many CM Arceus with the offensive pivot to engage in a CM war is quite risky, and the opposite happening is just straight up retardation on the opponent's part.

    This isn't set in stone and I am more than welcoming to anyone wanting to change my mind.
  7. polop

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    Ok so I finally finished testing all these Latias tests out !_!. Sorry if this is a little late. I'm no QC member but I would appreciate it if QC and Superimp take my opinions with a grain of salt please :P.

    I primarily agree with Poppy's ideas on setting however I would like to add some information. I personally feel that Specially Defensive should be set 1. Defensive Calm Mind set 2. All-out attacker set 3. and Offensive Calm Mind set 4.

    I probably require reasoning for my ideas, and here they are. Firstly, Specially Defensive is the only set that counters all Kyogre variants, regardless of the set they run. It is the ONLY POKEMON that can switch into all of Specs Kyogres moves. Light Screen turn 2, then Roost the damage off. It beats CM Kyogre by Roaring it out. Even Thunder Wave Ogre can't stop it from doing its job. This things job is being a Kyogre switch-in, but it fails at doing that if it gets 2HKOed by Specs Ice Beam right? Also to all people that say it gets beat up by Mewtwo...

    Mewtwo +1 Ice Beam vs. Superimp's Sp def Latias -> (54.39 - 64.28%). Light Screen prevents 2HKO with no SR all the time, and prevents 2HKO with SR sometimes.
    Psystrike does marginally worse x_x: 54.12 - 63.73. Same result as Ice Beam though. Set up Light Screen, Recover for a few turns / wait until it realizes it needs a Calm Mind to do something, and ROAR. OR you can be gutsy and switch to genesect (lol) :P.

    Defensive CM is set two because it can not only 2HKO Gene assuming it takes two SR switch-ins. It beats Specs Kyogre using Ice Beam (I will admit I did transfer a few Speed EVs though). When you get to the other two sets you loose that ability and besides there's something really annoying that annoyed me about the all-out attacker set...

    All Out Attacker Set: OK I know Draco Meteor is strong but Extremekiller Arceus keep on setting up on me after I use it ;_;. I know Draco Meteor was the whole reason the set was made but thats really why I put it in set 3. Besides Specs Kyogre's Water Spout takes a grand 55.41 - 65.32% out of its HP. This practically forces it to Thunder but I've never had a Kyogre stay in on the Thunder, then your forced into a mindgame as to whether or not you should Recover or Thunder. Is a check to a Pokemon SUPPOSED to have a mindgame as to how its supposed to check something else? I know its not supposed to be played like a Gastrodon and more of an offensive pivot but I like playing with it like a Gastrodon like the earlier sets play with it x_x.

    Offensive CM: Same thing as all-out attacker except Arceus no longer abuse me for setup. I would list it as superior to All-out Attacker except I got setup on a ferrothorn during my tests and I was annoyed and started hating this thing. At least All-out attacker has HP Fire... That and has everyone forgotten how common / annoying Ferrothorn + Kyogre core is?

    Of course these are my own (biased) opinions that I got after testing. I'm completely welcome to other opinions :P.
  8. Furai

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    I definitely agree with Poppy's order. After using All-out Attacker in the suspect testing, I'm really impressed. It's far better than the Offensive Pivot: its bulkier, it hits harder, it has coverage. Also, Grass Knot > Thunder please. Its much better to snipe Groudon and friends with one shot without lowering your Special Attack. 2HKOing Tyranitar in Sand is also amazing, and Kyogre loses like two-thirds of its health anyway and can't really do anything back. As for the EKiller fodder, well, you must have a counter for it, otherwise you deserve to lose.

    Ever since you showed me the battle examples I've fallen in love with Specially Defensive Latias. The utility it brings is so helpful, it covers many special threats, and it can counter all Kyogre sets effectively. Despite its offensive prowess, I agree with Poppy on #2, but I disagree with Mr.lol on #1; it just loses too much Offensive momentum, which can be huge, to be #1.
  9. shrang

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    Okay, I've given this a long consideration and this is what I came up with.

    1) Merge the two Calm Mind sets - Now, don't get me wrong, this is a slightly different approach to what I was originally planning (which was ditch the defensive CM set). What I'm proposing is we do something similar to what I've done for the OU revamp. We turn the two Calm Mind sets into one big universal "Calm Mind" set, neither explicitly offensive nor defensive. As for the EVs, I reckon that they should probably be more defensively inclined as she is supposed to check Kyogre, which is important. If you don't know what I mean, I suggest having a look at my OU revamp to have a feel of the structure I'm talking about. I think something like:

    [SET]
    name: Classic
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Thunder / Psyshock / Roar
    item: Soul Dew
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 212 HP / 44 SpA / 252 Spe

    - This spread lets Latias function a lot more defensively, while still retaining the ability to OHKO Palkia after Stealth Rock. Max Speed is too important to give up, IMO.
    - Have multiple AC paragraphs that go into detail about Latias' other moves (Substitute and Refresh). This way, we give offensive and defensive Latias equal weighting. You have a defensively oriented EV spread, but still with the ability to go offensive.
    - In terms of moves: I do think Thunder is the best option, as it allows you to deal more damage to Kyogre and Manaphy, as well as not being a free Genesect switch-in (It's an easy 2HKO, so Genesect can only switch-in once). Psyshock is probably slightly less useful, although it does let you beat more Calm Mind users. Roar is more of a support move to allude to the defensive set, but again, it lets you beat other Calm Mind users.

    2) Set order: Calm Mind (refurbished) > All Out Attacker > Specially Defensive
    - I personally think putting Calm Mind down the bottom is blasphemy. The reason you use Latias is the fact that she is defensive, but she can still sweep. This is what sets her apart from stuff like Grass Arceus, Gastrodon and other more specialised Kyogre checks. With Thunder being the main move, she is a lot more dangerous as stuff like Skarmory and stuff can't set up on her any more. She also checks a greater range of Pokemon with the Calm Mind set as well. Unlike the other two sets, Calm Mind totals every variant of Kyogre apart from probably Thunder Wave (which they all get annoyed by).
    - All-Out Attacker and Specially Defensive cannot beat stuff like last mon Calm Mind Kyogre and things like that, which make them less viable.
    - I'll give Specially Defensive the benefit of the doubt, but like I said, it cannot counter all Kyogre variants. Any Kyogre that can't be Roared out (ie last mons) will beat you easily. Even just Calm Mind + 3 attacks with Leftovers would beat you if he's the last mon because you don't even have Toxic. The set ONLY excels at beating Choiced Kyogres, which with BW2, have become more and more rare because of Latias' rise, instead opting for stuff like Thunder Wave + 3 attacks, RestTalk and in the current metagame, Sheer Cold variants (which you REALLY want to kill quickly so they can't spam that move and eventually catch you). It's also offensively dead weight.
  10. trickroom

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    I will generally say Calm Mind as the first set because it fits the best in stall based teams. Calm Mind is needed to beat things like Calm Mind Fighting/Grass Arceus, Calm Mind Kyogre ( Roaring is not countering just check ) and Manaphy.

    Calm Mind > All-Out-Attacker > Specially Defensive

    Merging both Calm Mind sets is fine by me and Latias works the same anyway. The EVs can be changed to fit your team's needs but shrang's spread looks fine. Max Speed for the Calm Mind set for speed tie at least, with 212 HP EVs, Kyogre is not 2HKOing you without Specs, so you have plenty of time to Calm Mind up and retaliate. Genesect does not enjoy taking Thunders at all so it can't switch in that freely.

    Specially Defensive can have its own set since most agree now but it should be the last set. Removing Latias's offenses is the last thing you want to do most of the time because that is what shits like Gastrodon do. Latias still has a lot of massive advantages so Specially Defensive deserves a set but mention you no longer check Lustrous Orb/Specs Palkia because they outspeed and 2HKO you first.

    Both Calm Mind and All-out-Attacker has their advantages, the order isn't that important anyway. Specially Defensive should remain at the bottom though because it is a rare set.

    Lastly, give Tailwind a mention, mr.Lol has a point about Lati twins using Tailwind to great effect thanks to their bulk and power.
  11. gookie

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    well psyshock still beats cm fightceus, and cm grass arceus and cm kyogre are really rare, although that doesn't invalidate your point of course (manaphy is even rarer). i don't know i just see all out attacker as more useful in more commonly encountered situations. i guess cm is a better failsafe xD
  12. Furai

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    please mention Refresh in AC of merged Calm Mind set i'm madly in love with it it beats gliscor which can be a total pain for sun teams :)
  13. giggity69

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    Also doesn't care about twave from ogre
  14. trickroom

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    The order of set isn't important just put either Calm Mind or All-Out-Attacker first. You can write up the Specially Defensive set now, it is accepted. Merge the 2 Calm Mind sets into 1, the one in shrang's post because they are extremely similar.
  15. Superimp

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    Here are my current thoughts on Latias. Do not be surprised if some of the points made in this post make their way into the analysis (Which I have made significant progress over the course of last week). Please note that I might have missed something while writing this.

    NOTES OF SUPERIMP REGARDING A POSSIBLE CM SET MERGE
    Show Hide
    Although the idea of a possible CM merge does sound intriguing, such an approach may be far more limiting than one might expect - we have to look at the context.

    Take a look at the rejected Support set. Now take a look at the proposed CM merge. Any possible problems?

    By merging two sets into a set that is neither explicitly defensive nor offensive, it seems to be trying to do too much at a time whereas splitting the sets might possibly have been more effective. There does exist a line between trying to put too many ideas into one set however fine it may be. Take a look at what Cherub Agent has to say:

    While both sets are capable of using each other's auxiliary moves (EX: Refresh, Roar, Substitute, Thunder, Psyshock, etc.) to a certain extent, different auxiliary moves correspond to a different playstyle/purpose. Jamming too many moves and options onto one set is not only confusing for the reader, but also restricts many options that might have possibly been better. For instance, with those current proposed EVs, Thunder fails to 2HKO Scizor and Forretress after SR, a feat that the
    old, more specialized Offensive Pivot set could do. You could possibly write multiple sections in AC, but that brings us to the main point; while it’s not that bad of an idea, it crams too much information, options, and playstyles into one set that could have been very easily expanded into two separate sets. PK Gaming’s quote comes to mind:

    Latias is an incredibly versatile Pokemon. People have so many different opinions on what makes Latias Latias - just check the variation in EV spreads as an example! But with so many move choices (that are perfectly viable as slashes in their own right, like Refresh and Substitute - maybe even Reflect Type on Defensive CM), playstyle differences, EV spreads, etc., is it
    really realistic to jam all this stuff into a single CM set?

    Remember, merging an offensive playstyle with a defensive playstyle is very different from merging a balanced playstyle with a defensive playstyle as seen in the Latias OU revamp:

  16. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I still don't see how the two Calm Mind sets are playing differently enough to warrant two sets. Yes I am aware that they do play differently, but I really don't think we need to split them up. If you have a look at my OU analysis, we merged 3 Calm Mind sets into one (One balanced, one fully defensive, one fully offensive). All three played relatively differently, but we still merged them into one set. I think we can do the same here. Nothing the defensive Calm Mind set does warrants any more than one or (at most) two paragraphs of extra AC cannot explain. Since trickroom and I (as well as other QC members) reckon a more general, more defensive spread works better on the Calm Mind set as a whole, we don't need the Offensive Pivot spread any more.

    Basically, it all boils down to:

    Calm Mind Latias (Calm Mind, Dragon Pulse, Recover) with an EV spread of 212 HP / 44 SpA / 252 Spe Timid:
    -> Go offensive with Thunder / Psyshock / HP Fire => Advantages: Can be an immediate offensive threat while having the option of being a long term threat, Disadvantages: Not as good as a long term threat as the defensive option
    -> Go defensive with Roar / Refresh / Substitute => Advantages: Can be a more long term threat, Disadvantages: Too easily stopped by Steel-types, especially Genesect

    In AC, you can add mentions of more offensive spreads (your 48 HP / 204 SpA / 252 Spe spread) and more defensive spreads (stuff like 252 HP / 160 SpD / 96 Spe). See how that is much more concise?
  17. Superimp

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    Unfortunately (Fortunately?) shrang, you’re not in OU anymore; you’re in Ubers. As I stated before, an Offensive CM Latias has more viability in Ubers than she does in OU thanks to a different Latias VS. Latios dynamic. It is because of this that Ubers Latias can have two different CM sets; these playstyles are viable and different enough in their own right to justify their existence as standalone sets.

    Although the general consensus is that a more defensively inclined EV spread fits better on CM Latias than a more offensively inclined EV spread (Hence Offensive Pivot being the current last set), this is very different from an explicit rejection of the Offensive Pivot. Offensive Pivot is still viable in Ubers, albeit a shadow of her former self. Whether this is enough to lead to an overall consensus on an explicit rejection of the Offensive Pivot, essentially forcing a merge, remains to be seen.

    I imagine I have the benefit of hindsight here (That and the current skeleton is a little misleading as my analysis is significantly more comprehensive), but the sheer size of the AC paragraphs alone is probably enough to justify the existence of two sets (Unless one playstyle is de-emphasized in favor of the other, which creates a dilemma since both are perfectly viable). As you are quite aware of shrang, this isn’t any ordinary Pokemon - this is Latias, an incredibly versatile (and controversial) Pokemon that only deserves the best that is to be offered. By having two CM sets for Latias, a more thorough and expanded look into both respective playstyles can be achieved.

    Take a look at Post #28 again (Skip to the benchmarks / EV spreads). Notice how the different EV spreads & discussion of relevant benchmarks for one set is already quite a bit - imagine what it would be like if you had all these relevant EV spreads and benchmark discussion for both respective playstyles in one set. Now try adding a discussion on Latias VS. Kyogre for each respective playstyle, respective move choices, respective teammates, respective problems, respective “how-to-play them,” etc. and the entire set I imagine becomes considerably more convoluted. As I said before, is it really realistic to jam all this stuff into a single CM set?

    Oh, and all of this is ignoring Post #40, which should hopefully be self-explanatory (Check the size of my discussion for Offensive Pivot / Defensive Calm Mind as an example). Remember, there is a reason why I did not give Offensive Pivot Roar / Refresh / Substitute, or Defensive Calm Mind Thunder / Psyshock; both sets are specifically designed to use their respective last slot to their maximum potential.

    Unless there is a significant consensus on a possible CM merge shrang (That or the Offensive Pivot gets rejected by overall consensus…), the splits will remain for the time being.

    ---------------------

    Just before I forget, Tailwind will likely be placed in OO or at best AC in All-Out Attacker, unless someone managed to create a perfectly viable Tailwind Latias set that can stand apart from Latios and actually work effectively (As in enough for a standalone set).
  18. RaikouLover

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    My minor suggestion: Wherever Thunder is listed Thunderbolt probably could at least get an AC mention. It hits Ho-oh harder and is less weather dependent. It sucks missing against shit like Forry and Skarm in the sun. Latias is actually a GREAT answer to Kyogre for your sun team if Palkia isn't your thing.
  19. Furai

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    If you want to use it on sun, you're better off with Psyshock for Ho-Oh, or Grass Knot for Kyogre. Missing out on Forretress and Skarmory is the only big thing; but with the All-out Attacker set they're barely a problem, and CM sets up on those all day long. They still remain annoying, you're absolutely correct, but I don't think that it warrants the low power of Thunerbolt. I would honestly rather go for the 50% if I want to hit those two. Furthermore, Psyshock does more against Ho-Oh than Thunderbolt:
    +1 204 SpA Latias Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Ho-Oh: 184-217 (44.33 - 52.28%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +1 204 SpA Latias Thunderbolt vs. 248 HP / 84 SpD Ho-Oh: 172-204 (41.44 - 49.15%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
  20. RaikouLover

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    Well yes that is all grits and gravy but Psyshock leaves you open to all steels, not just those two. That is why Dragon / Electric is usually the preferred combo. I'm merely suggesting the mention because Latias is definitely one of Sun's best counters to Kyogre. It is just another thing to consider where Thunder is mentioned. You can retain the ability to hit Kyogre, Steels, AND Lugia / Ho-Oh with Thunderbolt, rain or shine.
  21. shrang

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    I'm fully aware this is Ubers, not OU, thank you very much. My OU comparison has nothing to do with the fact that it's viable in OU and therefore Ubers (which you're definitely reading me wrong), but I'm just showing you the approach that you should be taking. You still have not given reasons on how offensive CM Latias deserves a set of its own instead of just merging the two sets together. Again, I'm not the only one calling for this, trickroom has explicitly stated he wants the two sets merged as well, while I have talked to Poppy and Furai at the very least on IRC and they were completely fine with the merge. You are right that purely offensive Calm Mind Latias is not very good any more. This is why a bulkier EV spread is much more applicable. Latias with the EV spread given pretty much makes what you call the "Offensive Pivot" set completely redundant, as it does pretty much everything that it was supposed to do. This is why I'm saying merge the two sets. It will only make your job easier.

    The AC paragraphs won't be that big at all. You may as treat this as a rejection of the Offensive Pivot set as we want you to merge the two sets into the Calm Mind set I've highlighted above.

    Please hurry up and finish this, Superimp. We need this analysis up ASAP, and arguing will not get us anywhere.
  22. Furai

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    My comments. Superb work, Superimp.

    Now, regarding Tailwind on Offensive Pivot. I am not very sure about it. My problem is that it literally has no place; without CM it won't be able to function as a Kyogre and CM Arceus check and it would be way too easy to check. Without a coverage move, a ton of things beat you, and you won't be able to setup both CM and Tailwind at all. I think that the best solution is a strong AC mention on its surprise factor and how it makes Latias and her team a bit more pressuring.
  23. Superimp

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    Latias’s analysis has finally been written. I hope this analysis is open, meticulous, and best reflects the different aspects of Latias to hopefully appeal to as many players as possible. Some polishing before GP will now occur; with any additional input, I'm sure the final product will be much improved.

    Furai and trickroom, I’m not that much of a Tailwind Lati@s user, but I definitely acknowledge its potential. I’m sure there are plenty of players out there who would be interested in Tailwind Latias. I imagine adding Tailwind to Offensive Pivot AC would be a great compromise; the sets remain separate, but they are now even more distinct. It coincidentally also mirrors Latios’s Special Dragon Dance set quite well. Consider it very likely that Tailwind will be incorporated in the near future. Your remaining comments Furai will be addressed in due time; they are very much appreciated.

    shrang, my OU comment was in response to your experience with the OU analysis; the OU and Uber Latias analyses are mutually exclusive and are in a different context. I am sorry if this was unclear to you.

    I am quite aware of your support for a possible merge shrang. However, unless there is significant consensus, the sets will remain separate. Please thoroughly check any previous posts again if you are interested, for your concerns have already been addressed multiple times (and in the hindsight of having already written the Defensive Calm Mind and Offensive Pivot sections).

    On a different note, the skeleton of the analysis has finally been updated in order to keep this analysis as consistent as possible. The final set order and EV spreads have also been determined from all your votes (including Furai’s changed vote) as follows:

    1. All-Out Attacker -> 164 HP / 148 SpA / 196 Spe Timid
    2. Defensive Calm Mind -> 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe Timid
    3. Specially Defensive -> 252 HP / 120 SpD / 136 Spe Calm
    4. Offensive Pivot -> 48 HP / 208 SpA / 252 Spe Timid
    Thanks for all your input! You’re always welcome to change your vote if you would like.

    If any member has some reasonable input that might improve this analysis (EX: elaborate on this section, de-emphasize this section, consider adding this missing check, implement some option that wasn’t considered, etc.), then please let me know.

    EDIT:

    shrang, I'll address your post in due time once I respond to Furai's comments. But for now, here is what Furai recently had to say:

    In fact, Furai thinks that Offensive Pivot should be listed as the second set. If you are interested, consider reading his comments in Post #47.
  24. shrang

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    I don't what you mean by "significant consensus" here Superimp. The only person who is not agreeing to the merge is you at the moment. I think we should have a merge, trickroom does too, Poppy and Furai (from the talks we had on IRC), did not disagree. In terms of active QC members, no-one is disagreeing with the merge, so I have no idea why you insist on not following these directions. I'd be much more vocal about this if Latias hasn't been getting this revamp so long that we need this up ASAP, but all I can say that I'm not impressed at this.

    On the other hand, good job on the actual analysis. It seems that the wait was worth it in terms of detail and content, well done.
  25. Furai

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    I have changed my mind regarding the merge, shrang. It seemed like an awesome idea when we were throwing it in the air; but now look at the analysis. Are you really sure about merging the two, and losing a TON of important information? No one is going to bother reading a 20+ paragraph analysis. I am against the merge just for that reason. Latias is an important part of Ubers, and I think the analysis should show it; be it by showing her phenomenal capabilities, or by giving a deep analysis to each set.

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