-
Welcome to Smogon! Take a moment to read the Introduction to Smogon for a run-down on everything Smogon, and make sure you take some time to read the global rules.
-
Congrats to the winners of the 2023 Smog Awards!
Most Overrated 4th Gen Pokemon in OU?
- Thread starter MazeL
- Start date
If you think Starmie is overrated, you either haven't used it or you haven't used it correctly.
In a lead spot, Starmie pretty much always comes out on top. Common stuff life Aerodactyl and Infernape get hit to their Sash as they Stealth Rock or Taunt, and then Starmie can Spin to kill them and take out Stealth Rock at once.
The fact the Starmie easily checks Heatran, Infernape, Gyarados, Dragonite, and a ton more just goes to show how good it is.
Edit: I left out defenses. Starmie's HP leaves something to be desired, but definitely has decent defenses for a special sweeper. It's like saying Infernape and Azelf suck because their defenses blow as well.
Side note: Starmie is a BOSS in-game with Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Psychic at Level 1 (Water Stone ftw). That is all.
In a lead spot, Starmie pretty much always comes out on top. Common stuff life Aerodactyl and Infernape get hit to their Sash as they Stealth Rock or Taunt, and then Starmie can Spin to kill them and take out Stealth Rock at once.
The fact the Starmie easily checks Heatran, Infernape, Gyarados, Dragonite, and a ton more just goes to show how good it is.
Edit: I left out defenses. Starmie's HP leaves something to be desired, but definitely has decent defenses for a special sweeper. It's like saying Infernape and Azelf suck because their defenses blow as well.
Side note: Starmie is a BOSS in-game with Surf, Thunderbolt, Ice Beam, and Psychic at Level 1 (Water Stone ftw). That is all.
Starmie has Pikachu defenses ? seriously ?
Starmie has OVER twice the defenses that Pikachu has in actual facts.
It has great defensive stats of 85/85 which is a fucking good stats if not for its 60 HP.
So please, think or check before you talk. Yeah hes certainly Frail, but in term of bulk, starmie has one of the best bulk among sweeper-ish poke
Starmie has OVER twice the defenses that Pikachu has in actual facts.
It has great defensive stats of 85/85 which is a fucking good stats if not for its 60 HP.
So please, think or check before you talk. Yeah hes certainly Frail, but in term of bulk, starmie has one of the best bulk among sweeper-ish poke
I strongly disagree that Rapid Spin Starmie is overrated. What other Pokemon in DPP OU can perform better than Starmie as a Rapid Spinner on offensive teams? As far as I know, nothing else even comes close.
Sorry, but I just sort of laugh whenever I see a lead Starmie. Not once has it ever beaten my lead Aerodactyl, as Stone Edge and EQ consecutively KO. Well, okay, it's Stone Edge we're talking about, so maybe I lost once or twice, but still, leaving it to die in the lead position is a waste of a perfectly good sweeper.
To my mind LO Starmie is one of the most dangerous pokemon in all OU. First of all, its insanely dangerous offensively. Against offensive teams, there is usually nothing which it can't 2HKO or OHKO; and it will outspeed nearly everything bar Scarfers. Its only bane is Pursuit and U-turn and it can close to OHKO all of the common users of those moves. Plus, just look at a list of OU's top 10 and you'll see that Starmie can beat virtually all of them
Stall and defensive teams don't usually have the same problem with being swept, courtesy of Blissey, as well as unusual stuff like Snorlax, Abomasnow, Lanturn etc. However, they also have no real answer to Starmie because it will just spin their hazards. Scarf Rotom and Sucker Punch Spiritomb are really the only spinblockers which can actually force Starmie out if they switch into a Hydro Pump.
To my mind, there are only a couple of actual things which can properly beat Starmie. CB Snorlax, Scarf Scizor (and maybe Band) although it still takes a crapload; and Kingdra, since it is just about the only pokemon which can actually set up stat boosts against Starmie with a ChestoRest set.Everything else is either exposed to massive risk, or still allows Starmie to safely spin away any hazards.
In addition, I don't even think people have realised the sweeping potential of Starmie yet. Having Toxic Spikes down, for instance, takes care of 90% of Starmie's bulky checks. That just leaves Scarfers which can easily be taken advantage of.
Stall and defensive teams don't usually have the same problem with being swept, courtesy of Blissey, as well as unusual stuff like Snorlax, Abomasnow, Lanturn etc. However, they also have no real answer to Starmie because it will just spin their hazards. Scarf Rotom and Sucker Punch Spiritomb are really the only spinblockers which can actually force Starmie out if they switch into a Hydro Pump.
To my mind, there are only a couple of actual things which can properly beat Starmie. CB Snorlax, Scarf Scizor (and maybe Band) although it still takes a crapload; and Kingdra, since it is just about the only pokemon which can actually set up stat boosts against Starmie with a ChestoRest set.Everything else is either exposed to massive risk, or still allows Starmie to safely spin away any hazards.
In addition, I don't even think people have realised the sweeping potential of Starmie yet. Having Toxic Spikes down, for instance, takes care of 90% of Starmie's bulky checks. That just leaves Scarfers which can easily be taken advantage of.
You can't say "that just leaves" like the points you listed earlier aren't flaws. We get it: Starmie has good speed and coverage, and can sweep weakened teams. But not without the ample support you did the courtesy of quoting for us earlier. You have to keep those Toxic Spikes from being spun, make sure its checks are at a low enough health for its coverage moves to KO, and make sure the Scarfers that can take it out so easily are completely put out of commission.
It is really not easy to sweep with Starmie, especially when it's weak to all of the wrong things and constantly misses KOs due to having such average attacking power. Not to mention the ubiquity of Pursuit; having it removed the match before it can even get more than one KO is kind of a big deal too.
Yeah, point taken. Starmie isn't in the same league as a sweeper as Gyarados, Lucario etc etc. Its an offensive Rapid Spinner first and foremost, which it does extremely well. Over the course of the battle, its just extremely difficult to prevent Starmie from either doing massive damage, or spinning. Offense I think has a somewhat easier time handling it than hazard based stall.
Btw, I didn't mean necessarily that you have to remove the Scarfers. I just meant that they usually hand offensive momentum straight back to you, especially if Starmie has accomplished its job and has removed hazards / weakened opposing pokemon. Scarf Flygon is a different story with U-turn but it doesn't OHKO, can't switch in, and gives Starmie a free turn.
Btw, I didn't mean necessarily that you have to remove the Scarfers. I just meant that they usually hand offensive momentum straight back to you, especially if Starmie has accomplished its job and has removed hazards / weakened opposing pokemon. Scarf Flygon is a different story with U-turn but it doesn't OHKO, can't switch in, and gives Starmie a free turn.
Ok, posts like this in this and the most underrated threads REALLY piss me off. For God's sake, if you have an opinion, fucking back it up.
I never understood what Swampert really does tbh.
It doesn't stop any sweeper except for DD Tar and maybe LO Aero (if you can predict Roost), it loses in the lead slot for EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP, and yeah...
CursePert is decent I guess if you can take out your opponent's Grass and Water Type Pokemon and they don't have a HP Grass Heatran, but generally, Swampert sucks, especially with no Salamence to check (although it did a horrible job of checking Salamence anyway).
It doesn't stop any sweeper except for DD Tar and maybe LO Aero (if you can predict Roost), it loses in the lead slot for EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP, and yeah...
CursePert is decent I guess if you can take out your opponent's Grass and Water Type Pokemon and they don't have a HP Grass Heatran, but generally, Swampert sucks, especially with no Salamence to check (although it did a horrible job of checking Salamence anyway).
Lol, for most of after mence left ou, i was running Swampert/ Impish/ leftovers/ waterfall/ earthquake/ SR/ stone edge/ 252 hp/ 114 att/ 144 def. random evs, i know, but it hit stuff so much harder. The lack of bulk actually wasnt as noticeable. i used to run ice punch, but it made me total set up bait for taunt DDdos, which is something my entire team had trouble with.
I'd have to say Forretress.
Not because it suck or anything, it's just that I never seen one being used in OU battle(and I had about 100 OU battles too).
What's the point of being called Overused when it's not even being used?
But that's just my perspective.
For other people, maybe they seen Forretress, like hundred times, I don't know.
Not because it suck or anything, it's just that I never seen one being used in OU battle(and I had about 100 OU battles too).
What's the point of being called Overused when it's not even being used?
But that's just my perspective.
For other people, maybe they seen Forretress, like hundred times, I don't know.
Forretress doesn't seem very overrated to me. It's too slow and weak to work well on fast, offensive teams, but it is a great Pokemon to use on stall teams because it can set up multiple types of hazards and simultaneously fulfill the role of a spinner.
Forretress is probably the single best hazards pokemon/spinner in the game. You get a ton of resistances to generate free turns and set up hazards or spin away your opponents. Also comes with better physical bulk than Skarmory, which further multiplies how many things you can set up against. Not useful on its own, but arguably the ultimate in team support.
Actually I pretty much hate Forretress. But then, thats because I'm more a semi stall player. As far as I'm concerned, full stall is the only play style which can accommadate Forretress' huge flaws and so reap the benefits of his great movepool.
On any other play style though, the fact that he dies to pretty much every special attacker (so, not Bulky Vaporeon) in the metagame in 2 hits is awful. Then, more importantly, whatever your 4th move is 90% of OU can and will set up on you.
The other thing about Forretress is that Bug/Steel isn't actually a great typing for something which is just supposed to sit there and take hits. It actually has very few useful resistances to common attacking types, like Fighting, Ground, Rock, Fire, Electric, and Water. Almost every offensive poke carries at least one of those types and usually more.
On any other play style though, the fact that he dies to pretty much every special attacker (so, not Bulky Vaporeon) in the metagame in 2 hits is awful. Then, more importantly, whatever your 4th move is 90% of OU can and will set up on you.
The other thing about Forretress is that Bug/Steel isn't actually a great typing for something which is just supposed to sit there and take hits. It actually has very few useful resistances to common attacking types, like Fighting, Ground, Rock, Fire, Electric, and Water. Almost every offensive poke carries at least one of those types and usually more.
Seriously Flygon
he's probably the best revengekiller (albeit the u-turn scout is quite predictable this days) but come on, he's in every team, also Swampert I mean he seems a sitting duck, and now with all these grass pokemon he have little use
he's probably the best revengekiller (albeit the u-turn scout is quite predictable this days) but come on, he's in every team, also Swampert I mean he seems a sitting duck, and now with all these grass pokemon he have little use
