The only spinner that can't beat Deoxys-D is Forretress, it'll lose to taunt+nightslash, every other spinner beats it without considering support options.So what if it doesn't commonly have Thunder. Does that mean that every team should run Starmie?
In fact, I bet there's a reason Deoxys-D doesn't run Thunder. Starmie is easy as hell to pressure to the point where you don't even need Deoxys-D to kill it when so many available teammates can do it for you.
Pretty much describes any guy trying to counter Deo-D lead HO teams."What do I allow to faint next?"
What? Whenever Deo-D comes out you give up Momentum as the one using it because it poses no offensive threat but rather fullfills a support role that enables your other Mons to sweep easier. Thats not what id call momentum.Guys we've been through this before. It's not about if you can spin or not against this thing. He's the very definition of momentum man.
My Answer:alexwolf said:Btw i really like yours posts in the OU Suspect thread! Oh and can you tell me some common strategies that stall uses to deal with Deo-D or maybe a good stall team that doesn't care about Deo-D so i may change my mind?
This isn't the right way of looking at this. Deo-D HO teams can't be evaluated correctly by examining individual members. Deo-D HO teams are greater than the sum of their parts. The entire team is designed to work together, and Deo-D is the glue that holds the team together. It does provide momentum despite being a support Pokemon, because it puts the opponent in a lose/lose situation. It starts setting hazards, at which point you are obligated to KO Deo-D AND spin, or be at a huge disadvantage when the sweepers come in. But, if you KO then spin the Deo-D player is free to send in something that beats your spinner during the spin, and set up or attack when you switch your spinner out. And spinning on Deo-D itself before KOing it is a risky prospect, because it might be carrying a move that KOs your spinner, leaving the match 6-5, with Deo-D free to set hazards like nothing ever happened. Also, HO teams depend on synergy-- every Pokemon that thretens one member of the HO team should be threatened by a different member. Therefore, Deo-D's moveset is tailored to beat whatever spinners/magic bouncers/taunters/etc. the rest of the team cannot beat. If, as you say, Tentacruel beats Deo-D, then the Deo-D player is certain to have something with a strong Ground/Psychic/Electric move to deal with Tentacruel, or a setup sweeper that Tentacruel can't even touch (SD Toxicroak springs to mind).What? Whenever Deo-D comes out you give up Momentum as the one using it because it poses no offensive threat but rather fullfills a support role that enables your other Mons to sweep easier. Thats not what id call momentum.
This sounds like an excellent description of how Deoxys-D fits in HO teams. You're pretty much using a spiker which is very hard to deal with, forcibly providing opportunities to get into an uncomfortable position. Other spikers just don't force your opponent's hand in the same way because they are very pressured to accomplish their mission. The offensive nature of this meta makes for unforgiving switches and too much switching into kos, the presence of Deoxys-D and its hazards aggravates that existing problem.Aside from thinking about how Deoxys-D can beat spinners, think about how Hyper Offensive teams are played. A good Hyper Offensive team with Deoxys-D should not be giving you a chance to spin.
You lead with Deoxys-D and get up one of 2 layers for example, then get forced out to gengar by a Starmie, so that your hazards can be preserved. Even if your opponent predicts this and hits the Gengar with psychic or simply kills it the next turn. You then get to switch in something with the potential to destroy Starmie. Which means you either get to scare it out and deal heavy damage especially since a lot of 3HKO's can be turned into 2HKO's thanks to a hazard or 2, straight up kill it eliminating the spinner early on, or kill Starmie later when it decides to.
But remember you can then just bring Deoxys-D in again and get up a quick layer or 2, putting your opponent at a strong disadvantage and under huge pressure, yet again.
Its just so easy to play with a Deoxys-D while you should essentially be able to just click attack moves once you've set up hazards without breaking a sweat, and on the opposite your opponent isn't able to think clearly and generally has to think "What do I allow to faint next?" from the get go. Reaffirming it as an unhealthy play style which OU surely could do without, as nothing can do the job of supporting a team like this as well as Deoxys-D. (Custap berry Crustle team peaked at 20th on the suspect ladder before becoming almost useless once people were wise..)
We've already been through that. Deo-D doesn't care if it dies as long as he gets those hazards out.What? Whenever Deo-D comes out you give up Momentum as the one using it because it poses no offensive threat but rather fullfills a support role that enables your other Mons to sweep easier. Thats not what id call momentum.
You make it sound soooo easy :(Spin? Stall literally has the best Deo-D countermeasures available. Tentacruel beats Deo-D pretty much guaranteed and both Starmie/Forry stand a decent chance too. If youre unsure you can also just kill Deo-D and then spin later. °-°
This is no different an argument that one could make about Ferrothorn, it puts just as much pressure on Spinners, only it doesn't need Gengar to beat them. If you just use Ferrothorn on an offensive team, you create the exact same situations. I used such a team to qualify for voting requirements.Aside from thinking about how Deoxys-D can beat spinners, think about how Hyper Offensive teams are played. A good Hyper Offensive team with Deoxys-D should not be giving you a chance to spin.
You lead with Deoxys-D and get up one of 2 layers for example, then get forced out to gengar by a Starmie, so that your hazards can be preserved. Even if your opponent predicts this and hits the Gengar with psychic or simply kills it the next turn. You then get to switch in something with the potential to destroy Starmie. Which means you either get to scare it out and deal heavy damage especially since a lot of 3HKO's can be turned into 2HKO's thanks to a hazard or 2, straight up kill it eliminating the spinner early on, or kill Starmie later when it decides to.
But remember you can then just bring Deoxys-D in again and get up a quick layer or 2, putting your opponent at a strong disadvantage and under huge pressure, yet again.
Its just so easy to play with a Deoxys-D while you should essentially be able to just click attack moves once you've set up hazards without breaking a sweat, and on the opposite your opponent isn't able to think clearly and generally has to think "What do I allow to faint next?" from the get go. Reaffirming it as an unhealthy play style which OU surely could do without, as nothing can do the job of supporting a team like this as well as Deoxys-D. (Custap berry Crustle team peaked at 20th on the suspect ladder before becoming almost useless once people were wise..)
Ferrothorn can be Taunted/Sleeped/OHKO'd/Can't Taunt/Doesn't PREVENT Spins/Can't beat Xatu.This is no different an argument that one could make about Ferrothorn, it puts just as much pressure on Spinners, only it doesn't need Gengar to beat them. If you just use Ferrothorn on an offensive team, you create the exact same situations. I used such a team to qualify for voting requirements.
This also holds partly true for deo-d unless we are talking about hackmons with 8 moveslots lol.Ferrothorn can be Taunted/Sleeped/OHKO'd/Can't Taunt/Doesn't PREVENT Spins/Can't beat Xatu.
This also holds partly true for deo-d unless we are talking about hackmons with 8 moveslots lol.
Honestly can people stop assuming that Deo-D always is using every set at the same time?
I mean i know that the fact that deo-d has a potential way to stop every form of countering is definitelly a part of why it might be broken, but that also means it has a horrible 4mss. If you are using Skill swap you might be able to fuck over Espeon/Xatu but you open yourself up to a lot more Pokemon because now you need to decide if you don't want to be taunt bait (magic guard), set-up bait (taunt/T-Wave) or completly unable to do any damage (Night Shade).
The same goes for the offensive set that while it can prevent spinning is much easier to OHKO/2HKO due to the lack of HP EVs, not to mention that there are alot of Pokemon that can carelessly set-up alongside it because it does laughable damage to anything that isn't weak to Psycho Boost.
Another thing is that common pokemon switched into Deo-D are just as unpredictable as deo-D. Lets say you use SR Spikes Taunt and Night Shade and your opponent sends in Dragonite the most obvious thing to do would be that it is DDNite and you taunt to prevent being set-up on, however if its CBNite it goes for the easy 2HKO with Outrage or the 91% chance to 2HKO even with Dragon Claw and limit it to just setting up SR. Something similar happens with Terrakion just worse do you Magic Coat to prevent being Taunted or do you Thunder wave in fear of getting 2HKOd by Stone Edge from CB Variants, but risk getting taunted. Even if you got Magic Coat against Sableye the Sableye player can predict around you with Night Shade turning it into a complete guess game for both players.
I am not sure if Deo-D isn't broken because 90 base speed with SR+Spikes and mighty defenses are really really good, but i simply hate it when people say something is uncouterable just because different sets got different counters
Nah you just Thunder Wave Terrakion since if it taunts you have Mental Herb and you jut crippled it. You Taunt Sableye then spam layers. I also highly doubt that a Sableye would Night Shade a Deoxys-D since its very possibly giving it free hazards on a mispredict. Remember, if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often it means its another layer of hazards up against you where if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often your still getting up SR anyway!Something similar happens with Terrakion just worse do you Magic Coat to prevent being Taunted or do you Thunder wave in fear of getting 2HKOd by Stone Edge from CB Variants, but risk getting taunted. Even if you got Magic Coat against Sableye the Sableye player can predict around you with Night Shade turning it into a complete guess game for both players.
Nah you just Thunder Wave Terrakion since if it taunts you have Mental Herb and you just crippled it.
or you got Rocky Helmet or another item and are in a bad position
You Taunt Sableye then spam layers. I also highly doubt that a Sableye would Night Shade a Deoxys-D since its very possibly giving it free hazards on a mispredict.
I highly doubt that more than maybe 5% of the players would use taunt against something that is likely to priority taunt you, why not just scout for Magic Coat with Night Shade on turn one? yes that means Deo-D gets up SR, but if it got Magic Coat you could completly fuck over yourself wich is much worse than everything else that could happen and it's very likely that a deo-d with Magic coat would use that on turn one against Sableye because it is the least risky move. however we both know that after turn 1 everything is likely to be decided on prediction so lets skip it here.
Remember, if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often it means its another layer of hazards up against you where if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often your still getting up SR anyway!
Very aware of that i just didn't liked the attitude of some posts that Deo-D will always get-up 2 Layers and there is no possibility to stop it from doing so.
Worth noting that in your Dragonite scenario Deoxys-D is still getting up SR and if it has Rocky Helmet, its also broken your MultiScale, you have also revealed CB, are locked in / confused. I wouldn't call it a 100% win for the Deoxys-D team by any means, but its still in a damn good position.
You are always in a good position after your suicide lead is dead, because you are allowed to switch in a counter/check for free ;) , but you are absolutly right that the DNite player is in an even worse position than usual especially if Deo-D got Rocky Helmet
I wouldnt really mind forcing my opponent to lock into outrage while I still get up rocks assuming i misspredict their move. However in the Dragonite situation I would rather use T-Wave than taunt first turn. Then possibly going for taunt or Hazards from there. I might have been better of taunting it if it were that DD set but T-Wave hurts either set and after a DD its no worse than a CB set. With Parahax I run a 44% chance of getting out 2 layers against a CB set either way. Similar scenario with other set-up threats like Volcarona.Another thing is that common pokemon switched into Deo-D are just as unpredictable as deo-D. Lets say you use SR Spikes Taunt and Night Shade and your opponent sends in Dragonite the most obvious thing to do would be that it is DDNite and you taunt to prevent being set-up on, however if its CBNite it goes for the easy 2HKO with Outrage or the 91% chance to 2HKO even with Dragon Claw and limit it to just setting up SR. Something similar happens with Terrakion just worse do you Magic Coat to prevent being Taunted or do you Thunder wave in fear of getting 2HKOd by Stone Edge from CB Variants, but risk getting taunted. Even if you got Magic Coat against Sableye the Sableye player can predict around you with Night Shade turning it into a complete guess game for both players.
What counterpoint?Ferrothorn can be Taunted/Sleeped/OHKO'd/Can't Taunt/Doesn't PREVENT Spins/Can't beat Xatu.
Everybody saw this argument the first time you posted it and give the same counterpoint. Not sure why you're bringing it up again, except maybe to brag you got requirements?
Or use Mental Herb and laugh at it?I highly doubt that more than maybe 5% of the players would use taunt against something that is likely to priority taunt you, why not just scout for Magic Coat with Night Shade on turn one?