np: BW OU Suspect Testing Round 10 - Hazard

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Banning Deoxy-D would just amplify Weather usage, open new creative staples for Hyper offense, and finally rid us of it's annoying unpredictable sets. Don't see an argument that sounds more appealing.
 

Myzozoa

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Stealth Rock 85.405% | Spikes 82.645% | Taunt 70.234% | Recover 27.851% | Magic Coat 25.047% | Night Shade 19.641% | Seismic Toss 18.657% | Toxic 14.579% | Thunder Wave 11.821% | Psycho Boost 8.623% | Hidden Power Fire 6.242% | Skill Swap 4.344% | Light Screen 3.513% | Reflect 3.340% | Other 18.058%


If this looks familiar, it's the January move set stats for Deoxys-D. Very little usage of Offensive moves, and no recorded usage of Thunder. You can theorymon as much as you want, but I've never seen Thunder used on Deo-D, on the ladder or in tournaments. The only time I ever saw offensive Deoxys-D, was once when I used it in WCOP, and once when Snunch or whoever was testing it to write the analysis. Deoxys-D is not unpredictable at all, it has one moveset, and that set is no where near impossible to beat. This line of argument can only be said to be born out of disingenuousness.
 

Meru

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So what if it doesn't commonly have Thunder. Does that mean that every team should run Starmie?

In fact, I bet there's a reason Deoxys-D doesn't run Thunder. Starmie is easy as hell to pressure to the point where you don't even need Deoxys-D to kill it when so many available teammates can do it for you.
 

Myzozoa

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So what if it doesn't commonly have Thunder. Does that mean that every team should run Starmie?

In fact, I bet there's a reason Deoxys-D doesn't run Thunder. Starmie is easy as hell to pressure to the point where you don't even need Deoxys-D to kill it when so many available teammates can do it for you.
The only spinner that can't beat Deoxys-D is Forretress, it'll lose to taunt+nightslash, every other spinner beats it without considering support options.

Deo-D +Gengar beats Forretress and Donphan and loses to all other spinners, and Gengar doesn't help against offensive forms of dealing with Deo-D such as Scizor, CB Tar, Scarf Toed, trick users, set-up sweepers, etc.


My only question is: what is the team style that you think is being troubled by Deo-D? Deo-D is not the reason why stall doesn't exist, Rain can use Scarf Toed, Tentacruel, or Starmie, Sun uses Magic Bounce, Sand has TTar and Scizor, opposing weather-less also has Scizor as well as fast Taunt users, Gengar, and set-up sweepers. These pokemon are good in themselves, not just for handling Deo-D, so what aspect of the metagame is it hurting? The metagame on the ladder is a bunch of (mindless) hyper offensive weather-less and rain teams that make life harder than ever for defensive teams. Good luck dealing with an influx of 6 attacker-no support teams, then you'll see what it's like to play against some pokemon that are actually unpredictable.
 

Reymedy

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Meru : No, it does not mean that, not at all, and you know it.

And Starmie is pressured as hell if there is a Pursuiter, like Ttar, and we know that Starmie is not so afraid of him if he's not scarfed (and even if he's scarfed, being burned on a switch isn't something you're always ready to risk).
Deoxys-D has 5 mates, so has Starmie, I don't see your point.

You should have saw this SPL game yesterday. I wish I had saved this game to provide this thread with some relevant content.
Because there was a Starmie, and there was a Deoxys-D, and even a Jellicent. I didn't see the Starmie having any issue to spin. It was probably a horrible match-up though.

But there are many possible answers, to spin, or to limit the number of hazards, or to set-up. And Deoxys-D isn't the "monster" people describe.
In Lavos' example. I would have span with Forretress, because HP Fire is a less played option and because I would have kept my Sturdy intact for the worst case scenario. I take few risks by doing it, given the low usage of HP Fire and the fact that I still manage to have my weather, 0 hazards on my field and the momemtum in the end (worst case scenario). Then I can go to Venusaur and Sleep Powder you because you probably don't have Magic Coat, and then set-up (or something else, I don't know the teams <.<). Well, this is just an example, but in my opinion, what he did was far from being a good play all things considered. And in this case, a classic Rocky Helmet + Taunt set would be probably better than killing the Forretress straight off (in case of a HO, I don't know the teams etc, so I'm just saying that it's not so simple).

EDIT : I'm 2 slow.
 

Enguarde

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Aside from thinking about how Deoxys-D can beat spinners, think about how Hyper Offensive teams are played. A good Hyper Offensive team with Deoxys-D should not be giving you a chance to spin.

You lead with Deoxys-D and get up one of 2 layers for example, then get forced out to gengar by a Starmie, so that your hazards can be preserved. Even if your opponent predicts this and hits the Gengar with psychic or simply kills it the next turn. You then get to switch in something with the potential to destroy Starmie. Which means you either get to scare it out and deal heavy damage especially since a lot of 3HKO's can be turned into 2HKO's thanks to a hazard or 2, straight up kill it eliminating the spinner early on, or kill Starmie later when it decides to.

But remember you can then just bring Deoxys-D in again and get up a quick layer or 2, putting your opponent at a strong disadvantage and under huge pressure, yet again.

Its just so easy to play with a Deoxys-D while you should essentially be able to just click attack moves once you've set up hazards without breaking a sweat, and on the opposite your opponent isn't able to think clearly and generally has to think "What do I allow to faint next?" from the get go. Reaffirming it as an unhealthy play style which OU surely could do without, as nothing can do the job of supporting a team like this as well as Deoxys-D. (Custap berry Crustle team peaked at 20th on the suspect ladder before becoming almost useless once people were wise..)
 

Soul Fly

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"What do I allow to faint next?"
Pretty much describes any guy trying to counter Deo-D lead HO teams.



Guys we've been through this before. It's not about if you can spin or not against this thing. He's the very definition of momentum man.
 

Conflict

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Guys we've been through this before. It's not about if you can spin or not against this thing. He's the very definition of momentum man.
What? Whenever Deo-D comes out you give up Momentum as the one using it because it poses no offensive threat but rather fullfills a support role that enables your other Mons to sweep easier. Thats not what id call momentum.

For people who are wondering if Deo-D handicaps Stall ive had a vm-conversation with alexwolf about that:

alexwolf said:
Btw i really like yours posts in the OU Suspect thread! Oh and can you tell me some common strategies that stall uses to deal with Deo-D or maybe a good stall team that doesn't care about Deo-D so i may change my mind?
My Answer:
Spin? Stall literally has the best Deo-D countermeasures available. Tentacruel beats Deo-D pretty much guaranteed and both Starmie/Forry stand a decent chance too. If youre unsure you can also just kill Deo-D and then spin later. °-°
I even remember playing a match with Rainstall vs. Recover-Taunt-DeoD with Jellicent Support fielded by a very good player and i was able to beat that kinda team through smart play. Deo-D didnt prove to be unbeatable at all. Ive also peaked several times with Stall on the Standard ladder (i.e. with DeoD allowed). My experience just tells me that it isnt a big threat to stall, the more fearsome threats are Terrakion or Thund-T, etc.


If I have a greater chance of losing if i forego using Deo-D then Deo-D should be considered broken and consequently banned. But if that isnt the case then i dont see how it can be considered broken. And i have way more teams without Deo-D and i also see many people NOT use Deo-D in tournaments so i wonder why he is considered broken. I think most of you guys are thinking of Deo-D as cheap but cheap doesnt equal broken. Baton Pass or Smashpass is kinda 'cheap' too and we didnt ban that.
 
What? Whenever Deo-D comes out you give up Momentum as the one using it because it poses no offensive threat but rather fullfills a support role that enables your other Mons to sweep easier. Thats not what id call momentum.
This isn't the right way of looking at this. Deo-D HO teams can't be evaluated correctly by examining individual members. Deo-D HO teams are greater than the sum of their parts. The entire team is designed to work together, and Deo-D is the glue that holds the team together. It does provide momentum despite being a support Pokemon, because it puts the opponent in a lose/lose situation. It starts setting hazards, at which point you are obligated to KO Deo-D AND spin, or be at a huge disadvantage when the sweepers come in. But, if you KO then spin the Deo-D player is free to send in something that beats your spinner during the spin, and set up or attack when you switch your spinner out. And spinning on Deo-D itself before KOing it is a risky prospect, because it might be carrying a move that KOs your spinner, leaving the match 6-5, with Deo-D free to set hazards like nothing ever happened. Also, HO teams depend on synergy-- every Pokemon that thretens one member of the HO team should be threatened by a different member. Therefore, Deo-D's moveset is tailored to beat whatever spinners/magic bouncers/taunters/etc. the rest of the team cannot beat. If, as you say, Tentacruel beats Deo-D, then the Deo-D player is certain to have something with a strong Ground/Psychic/Electric move to deal with Tentacruel, or a setup sweeper that Tentacruel can't even touch (SD Toxicroak springs to mind).
 
Aside from thinking about how Deoxys-D can beat spinners, think about how Hyper Offensive teams are played. A good Hyper Offensive team with Deoxys-D should not be giving you a chance to spin.

You lead with Deoxys-D and get up one of 2 layers for example, then get forced out to gengar by a Starmie, so that your hazards can be preserved. Even if your opponent predicts this and hits the Gengar with psychic or simply kills it the next turn. You then get to switch in something with the potential to destroy Starmie. Which means you either get to scare it out and deal heavy damage especially since a lot of 3HKO's can be turned into 2HKO's thanks to a hazard or 2, straight up kill it eliminating the spinner early on, or kill Starmie later when it decides to.

But remember you can then just bring Deoxys-D in again and get up a quick layer or 2, putting your opponent at a strong disadvantage and under huge pressure, yet again.

Its just so easy to play with a Deoxys-D while you should essentially be able to just click attack moves once you've set up hazards without breaking a sweat, and on the opposite your opponent isn't able to think clearly and generally has to think "What do I allow to faint next?" from the get go. Reaffirming it as an unhealthy play style which OU surely could do without, as nothing can do the job of supporting a team like this as well as Deoxys-D. (Custap berry Crustle team peaked at 20th on the suspect ladder before becoming almost useless once people were wise..)
This sounds like an excellent description of how Deoxys-D fits in HO teams. You're pretty much using a spiker which is very hard to deal with, forcibly providing opportunities to get into an uncomfortable position. Other spikers just don't force your opponent's hand in the same way because they are very pressured to accomplish their mission. The offensive nature of this meta makes for unforgiving switches and too much switching into kos, the presence of Deoxys-D and its hazards aggravates that existing problem.
 

Soul Fly

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What? Whenever Deo-D comes out you give up Momentum as the one using it because it poses no offensive threat but rather fullfills a support role that enables your other Mons to sweep easier. Thats not what id call momentum.
We've already been through that. Deo-D doesn't care if it dies as long as he gets those hazards out.

And you surely know that once Deo-D's job is done a rapid spin essentially means a free set up Turn against HO? How can that possibly not be pressure? And if you choose not to spin, you'll keep getting worn down, which makes your job a lot more harder.


EDIT:

Spin? Stall literally has the best Deo-D countermeasures available. Tentacruel beats Deo-D pretty much guaranteed and both Starmie/Forry stand a decent chance too. If youre unsure you can also just kill Deo-D and then spin later. °-°
You make it sound soooo easy :(
 

Myzozoa

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Aside from thinking about how Deoxys-D can beat spinners, think about how Hyper Offensive teams are played. A good Hyper Offensive team with Deoxys-D should not be giving you a chance to spin.

You lead with Deoxys-D and get up one of 2 layers for example, then get forced out to gengar by a Starmie, so that your hazards can be preserved. Even if your opponent predicts this and hits the Gengar with psychic or simply kills it the next turn. You then get to switch in something with the potential to destroy Starmie. Which means you either get to scare it out and deal heavy damage especially since a lot of 3HKO's can be turned into 2HKO's thanks to a hazard or 2, straight up kill it eliminating the spinner early on, or kill Starmie later when it decides to.

But remember you can then just bring Deoxys-D in again and get up a quick layer or 2, putting your opponent at a strong disadvantage and under huge pressure, yet again.

Its just so easy to play with a Deoxys-D while you should essentially be able to just click attack moves once you've set up hazards without breaking a sweat, and on the opposite your opponent isn't able to think clearly and generally has to think "What do I allow to faint next?" from the get go. Reaffirming it as an unhealthy play style which OU surely could do without, as nothing can do the job of supporting a team like this as well as Deoxys-D. (Custap berry Crustle team peaked at 20th on the suspect ladder before becoming almost useless once people were wise..)
This is no different an argument that one could make about Ferrothorn, it puts just as much pressure on Spinners, only it doesn't need Gengar to beat them. If you just use Ferrothorn on an offensive team, you create the exact same situations. I used such a team to qualify for voting requirements.
 

Meru

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This is no different an argument that one could make about Ferrothorn, it puts just as much pressure on Spinners, only it doesn't need Gengar to beat them. If you just use Ferrothorn on an offensive team, you create the exact same situations. I used such a team to qualify for voting requirements.
Ferrothorn can be Taunted/Sleeped/OHKO'd/Can't Taunt/Doesn't PREVENT Spins/Can't beat Xatu.

Everybody saw this argument the first time you posted it and give the same counterpoint. Not sure why you're bringing it up again, except maybe to brag you got requirements?
 

Shurtugal

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Ferrothorn can beat Starmie and has Iron Barbs to damage RS. It also gets explosion, which is more powerful than any of DeoDs attacks. Ferro could run mental herb to avoid being taunted, its not impossible to use it. Certainly not DeoD, but I could see it working lol

Sleeped? Only one user can put things to sleep what's the point? Ferro won't stay in on loom regardless so kinda moot.
 
I think the critical difference between ferrothorn and deo-d is that so much more stuff threatens ferro and prevents it from setting up hzards. Sure, it matches up well vs most spinners, but if I lead terrakion vs your ferrothorn, what are you going to do? Start setting up hazards? I OHKO you with CB CC. Switch out? Fine, but you don't get any hazards right now and you just lost momentum since terrakion can threaten p much everything in the game. However, if I lead deo-d, there is not a single thing you can do to guarantee I am not getting SR up, and there is not a single thing you can do to guarantee I'm not getting SR and a layer of spikes up without locking yourself into CB crunch...which promptly let's me set up my SD lucario and sweep your team. THAT is why deo-d controls momentum--because, if you let it sit there, it will spread hazards all over your field, but to get rid of it before it does so you need to do something that will give my team a huge advantage. And before you cite locking into CB terra CC as disadvantageous, you could also hit ferro with any fire move, taunt it, hit it with landy SF fblast, w/e. And this does not only apply to lead matchups--every team carries (or should carry) something that easily 2HKOs ferro, and the vast majority can OHKO it, without loss of momentum. This is simply not the case with deo-d and is why imo it is broken in its role as hazard setter.
 

BurningMan

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Ferrothorn can be Taunted/Sleeped/OHKO'd/Can't Taunt/Doesn't PREVENT Spins/Can't beat Xatu.
This also holds partly true for deo-d unless we are talking about hackmons with 8 moveslots lol.

Honestly can people stop assuming that Deo-D always is using every set at the same time?
I mean i know that the fact that deo-d has a potential way to stop every form of countering is definitelly a part of why it might be broken, but that also means it has a horrible 4mss. If you are using Skill swap you might be able to fuck over Espeon/Xatu but you open yourself up to a lot more Pokemon because now you need to decide if you don't want to be taunt bait (magic guard), set-up bait (taunt/T-Wave) or completly unable to do any damage (Night Shade).
The same goes for the offensive set that while it can prevent spinning is much easier to OHKO/2HKO due to the lack of HP EVs, not to mention that there are alot of Pokemon that can carelessly set-up alongside it because it does laughable damage to anything that isn't weak to Psycho Boost.

Another thing is that common pokemon switched into Deo-D are just as unpredictable as deo-D. Lets say you use SR Spikes Taunt and Night Shade and your opponent sends in Dragonite the most obvious thing to do would be that it is DDNite and you taunt to prevent being set-up on, however if its CBNite it goes for the easy 2HKO with Outrage or the 91% chance to 2HKO even with Dragon Claw and limit it to just setting up SR. Something similar happens with Terrakion just worse do you Magic Coat to prevent being Taunted or do you Thunder wave in fear of getting 2HKOd by Stone Edge from CB Variants, but risk getting taunted. Even if you got Magic Coat against Sableye the Sableye player can predict around you with Night Shade turning it into a complete guess game for both players.

I am not sure if Deo-D isn't broken because 90 base speed with SR+Spikes and mighty defenses are really really good, but i simply hate it when people say something is uncouterable just because different sets got different counters
 
This also holds partly true for deo-d unless we are talking about hackmons with 8 moveslots lol.

Honestly can people stop assuming that Deo-D always is using every set at the same time?
I mean i know that the fact that deo-d has a potential way to stop every form of countering is definitelly a part of why it might be broken, but that also means it has a horrible 4mss. If you are using Skill swap you might be able to fuck over Espeon/Xatu but you open yourself up to a lot more Pokemon because now you need to decide if you don't want to be taunt bait (magic guard), set-up bait (taunt/T-Wave) or completly unable to do any damage (Night Shade).
The same goes for the offensive set that while it can prevent spinning is much easier to OHKO/2HKO due to the lack of HP EVs, not to mention that there are alot of Pokemon that can carelessly set-up alongside it because it does laughable damage to anything that isn't weak to Psycho Boost.

Another thing is that common pokemon switched into Deo-D are just as unpredictable as deo-D. Lets say you use SR Spikes Taunt and Night Shade and your opponent sends in Dragonite the most obvious thing to do would be that it is DDNite and you taunt to prevent being set-up on, however if its CBNite it goes for the easy 2HKO with Outrage or the 91% chance to 2HKO even with Dragon Claw and limit it to just setting up SR. Something similar happens with Terrakion just worse do you Magic Coat to prevent being Taunted or do you Thunder wave in fear of getting 2HKOd by Stone Edge from CB Variants, but risk getting taunted. Even if you got Magic Coat against Sableye the Sableye player can predict around you with Night Shade turning it into a complete guess game for both players.

I am not sure if Deo-D isn't broken because 90 base speed with SR+Spikes and mighty defenses are really really good, but i simply hate it when people say something is uncouterable just because different sets got different counters

You just committed an error there. It's like mew, its good because it can run so many sets, you can never tell what the heck it is running. I rarely send out scizor against Deo-D because I cannot tell turn one if it is running fire gem HP fire or if its just a taunter/mirror coat user. That unpredictability is one of its better traits. Heck it doesn't even need to be firegem, it could be LO + Tbolt HP Fire. The only time I will really lead scizor against it is when I see gengar as that usually means hes using destiny bond to deal with spinners rather than Deo-D itself.

The fact that it was broken in UU where they arguably have much better answers to Deo-D (Heracross, Honchcrow, other darks/bugs) in higher volumes should speak a lot about his ability to play around his counters/checks.

And that brings us around to the EXACT reason we have suspect tests like this: OVER-CENTRALIZATION.
 

ginganinja

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Something similar happens with Terrakion just worse do you Magic Coat to prevent being Taunted or do you Thunder wave in fear of getting 2HKOd by Stone Edge from CB Variants, but risk getting taunted. Even if you got Magic Coat against Sableye the Sableye player can predict around you with Night Shade turning it into a complete guess game for both players.
Nah you just Thunder Wave Terrakion since if it taunts you have Mental Herb and you jut crippled it. You Taunt Sableye then spam layers. I also highly doubt that a Sableye would Night Shade a Deoxys-D since its very possibly giving it free hazards on a mispredict. Remember, if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often it means its another layer of hazards up against you where if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often your still getting up SR anyway!

Worth noting that in your Dragonite scenario Deoxys-D is still getting up SR and if it has Rocky Helmet, its also broken your MultiScale, you have also revealed CB, are locked in / confused. I wouldn't call it a 100% win for the Deoxys-D team by any means, but its still in a damn good position.
 

BurningMan

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Nah you just Thunder Wave Terrakion since if it taunts you have Mental Herb and you just crippled it.

or you got Rocky Helmet or another item and are in a bad position

You Taunt Sableye then spam layers. I also highly doubt that a Sableye would Night Shade a Deoxys-D since its very possibly giving it free hazards on a mispredict.

I highly doubt that more than maybe 5% of the players would use taunt against something that is likely to priority taunt you, why not just scout for Magic Coat with Night Shade on turn one? yes that means Deo-D gets up SR, but if it got Magic Coat you could completly fuck over yourself wich is much worse than everything else that could happen and it's very likely that a deo-d with Magic coat would use that on turn one against Sableye because it is the least risky move. however we both know that after turn 1 everything is likely to be decided on prediction so lets skip it here
.

Remember, if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often it means its another layer of hazards up against you where if you fuck up with Deoxys-D, often your still getting up SR anyway!

Very aware of that i just didn't liked the attitude of some posts that Deo-D will always get-up 2 Layers and there is no possibility to stop it from doing so.

Worth noting that in your Dragonite scenario Deoxys-D is still getting up SR and if it has Rocky Helmet, its also broken your MultiScale, you have also revealed CB, are locked in / confused. I wouldn't call it a 100% win for the Deoxys-D team by any means, but its still in a damn good position.

You are always in a good position after your suicide lead is dead, because you are allowed to switch in a counter/check for free ;) , but you are absolutly right that the DNite player is in an even worse position than usual especially if Deo-D got Rocky Helmet
 
Another thing is that common pokemon switched into Deo-D are just as unpredictable as deo-D. Lets say you use SR Spikes Taunt and Night Shade and your opponent sends in Dragonite the most obvious thing to do would be that it is DDNite and you taunt to prevent being set-up on, however if its CBNite it goes for the easy 2HKO with Outrage or the 91% chance to 2HKO even with Dragon Claw and limit it to just setting up SR. Something similar happens with Terrakion just worse do you Magic Coat to prevent being Taunted or do you Thunder wave in fear of getting 2HKOd by Stone Edge from CB Variants, but risk getting taunted. Even if you got Magic Coat against Sableye the Sableye player can predict around you with Night Shade turning it into a complete guess game for both players.
I wouldnt really mind forcing my opponent to lock into outrage while I still get up rocks assuming i misspredict their move. However in the Dragonite situation I would rather use T-Wave than taunt first turn. Then possibly going for taunt or Hazards from there. I might have been better of taunting it if it were that DD set but T-Wave hurts either set and after a DD its no worse than a CB set. With Parahax I run a 44% chance of getting out 2 layers against a CB set either way. Similar scenario with other set-up threats like Volcarona.

Terrakion I just run Mental Herb and T-Wave it then outspeed it for either Taunt or Rocks. Same story with Sableye, I taunt it as it tries to taunt me and set up as it switches out.

The set I am using in above examples is
Deoxys-D @ Mental Herb
-Stealth Rock
-Spikes
-Taunt
-Thunder Wave

I consider mental herb being a superior way of handeling faster taunters than Magic Coat because a misprediction with it can be fatal and end up in no hazards at all. I feel rather comfortable with leaving spinners and Magic Bouncers to the rest of my team. Spinners don't really prevent rocks from getting out or KO Deoxys. If their slower and spamming Rapid Spin I can always T-Wave them, wait for a full paralyze and go to a spinblocker.

On a side note i find it amusing you first mention that Deoxys cannot run more than 4 moves, yet in your examples you mention 6.
 

Myzozoa

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Ferrothorn can be Taunted/Sleeped/OHKO'd/Can't Taunt/Doesn't PREVENT Spins/Can't beat Xatu.

Everybody saw this argument the first time you posted it and give the same counterpoint. Not sure why you're bringing it up again, except maybe to brag you got requirements?
What counterpoint?

The post I replied to repeated a bunch of things that I had previously resolved, and so I replied in order to reiterate my arguments. You're just throwing out some random ad hominem about me bragging in order to mask the fact that you cannot contradict me on a factual basis.

The set with Thunderwave cannot beat any spinner in the game without tons of luck, so I don't know why we're worrying about it, that set is a waste of Deoxys-D evidently, it does not do anything relevant to making Deoxys-D more effective.
 

GatoDelFuego

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Any set with thunderwave might not beat spinners, but a red card set can. Red Card + Magic Coat covers every basis deoxys needs. Set up sweepers? Set up hazards. Taunt user? Magic Coat. Lead with spinner? Set up hazards, watch them get shifted out, set up again on the switch back, switch to gengar to block spin. Or, assuming starmie, watch them surf and get shifted out, set up stealth rock, set up spikes on the switch, switch out to gengar. You now have SR +1 against a spinner. The only thing that beats this set is a magic bounce user but they're 95% garbage most of the time.
 

ginganinja

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I highly doubt that more than maybe 5% of the players would use taunt against something that is likely to priority taunt you, why not just scout for Magic Coat with Night Shade on turn one?
Or use Mental Herb and laugh at it?
 
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