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np: RU Stage 13 - All I want for Christmas - is a balanced tier

Discussion in 'BW RU' started by SilentVerse, Dec 4, 2012.

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  1. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Hey, so as most of you are probably aware, UU has unbanned Snow Warning. However, because Snover was in NU at the time of Snow Warning's ban, Snow Warning has been allowed in RU and NU. Because SPL is also coming up, Oglemi and I have felt that it is in RU's best interests to cancel our plan to stagger the RU ladder and test Hail instead. Sorry folks who wanted to see the metagame without Cresselia and Nidoqueen, but hail is arguably more important to test!

    Will hail help make Nidoqueen and Cresselia less of an issue, or will it prove to be too powerful in its own right? Will ShakeItUp's mighty Trick Room + Endeavor team dominate the ladder once more, or has the metagame changed enough to make it a non-issue? Will hail stall become powerful now that hail has Nidoqueen to aid it defensively, or will blizzspam rule supreme?

    To give people time to practice for SPL, this round will only last for two weeks. The round will end on December 19th at 11:59pm EST, when screenshots will be taken and an Alt Identification Thread will be put up.

    Remember that we will be taking this thread into account the most when it comes to deciding the Rotating Council spot for forum presence, so get posting!


    Also, here's the real song :p

    [youtube]K5bo4VDEH-U[/youtube]
  2. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    So i decided to use Hail on ladder for a little bit just to see how threatening some of the threats it brings to the table, and i found two big Pokemon that are probably going to be big players during this round =).

    [​IMG]
    Rotom-Frost @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SAtk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Substitute
    - Blizzard
    - Thunderbolt
    - Pain Split

    With decent defensive stats, a great special attack stat, and STAB Boltbeam, Rotom-F makes a particularly potent user of subsplit when used under hail. As most of you already know, Hail boosts Blizzard's accuracy up to 100%, making it not just powerful, but reliable. Rotom-F can force a bunch of switches with its excellent STABs and the threat of a scarf set and/or Volt Switch, giving the refrigerator plenty of chances to set up a substitute, from there Rotom-F can repeatedly batter the opponent with Thunderbolt and Blizzard while using pain split when needed. Rotom-F's offensive prowess is further complemented by the hail its going to be used in, an extra 6% is never a bad thing, and residual hail damage can often put bulkier Pokemon into KO range late game, at the very least, hail will cancel out Leftovers recovery for the Pokemon who run it, this works especially well against lanturn, who resists both of Rotom-F's STABs but lacks recovery, letting the haunted icebox wear it down with Blizzard that much more easily. This set was a top threat on Hail teams back in BW1 and im expecting no different now, ive used hail in about 30 or so matches over the course of the time its been allowed and Rotom-F has been excellent for me!

    [​IMG]
    GOD (Glaceon) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Ice Body
    EVs: 8 HP / 248 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Blizzard
    - Protect
    - Substitute
    - Hidden Power [Ground]

    Glaceon is another previously irrelevant Pokemon that gets a big buff from hail's unbanning. Glaceon, like fellow hail abuser walrein has access to the ability Ice Body thanks to the Pokemon Dream World, and it sure makes good use of it!. Glaceon has the ability to play like Stallrein if it has to, simply alternating between protect and substitute to wear down the opponent through residual damage or PP stall out an attack, but Glaceon sacrifices some bulk and a secondary Water-typing for what is undeniably the strongest Ice-type attack available in the lower tiers (and the second strongest ice-type move overall, only beaten by Kyurem-W blizzard). As you would expect, this gives Glaceon some serious firepower to back up its stalling strategy, and like Rotom-F, i often end up wearing down certain opponents with repeated hail damage until they end up in KO range of my Blizzard. Hidden Power Ground rounds off Glaceon's coverage and gives it the ability to hit mons like CB entei, emboar, and Lanturn incredibly hard, making it nearly indispensable on Glaceon. Glaceon has the option to run more hp if you want some more bulk, but keep in mind that only certain benchmarks will heal Glaceon fully after two turns! Also, Vanilluxe can run the same set as Glaceon, and has the added perk of having a significant amount of speed more than glaceon, giving it the ability to outspeed various Pokemon, especially nidoqueen, which is especially notable. I think Ice Cream is worth testing too imo.



    About hail in general, i personally think that its going to be fine in RU at least for now, there are a bunch of Pokemon that have either dropped or have recently become popular that can be a huge pain for hail, such as Escavalier (overcoat does have a use!). To use hail to its fullest effect you also have to stack up on what can be called arguably the worst defensive Pokemon in the game, and you often need to take up more teamslots than you would like with Pokemon to cover this problem, some of which might be crippled by your own hail! Nonthenless, i still think that hail is going to be a very viable and potent strategy this round, and i cant wait to see how things turn out :o.
  3. Leman

    Leman

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    Cresselia and Nidoqueen are far more broken than hail. >_>
  4. col49

    col49 what.
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    :O

    As much as it upsets me that 'Queen and Cress are being pushed off, this is really cool lol. I dropped off RU about the time hail was first banned (though obv.I still lurked about), so I guess nostalgia points? Anywho, Hail seems really neat, I've always been a fan of it as a whole, and there are plenty of cool things to work with. Hail Offense looks really cool right now, with stuff like Nidoqueen, Slowking, and more all fitting snuggly into such teams, and all appreciating the residual damage Hail provides. Rotom-F will be a ton of fun to use, because Blizzspaming for days is the best. Strictly theorymonning here, but Snover/'Tops/Queen/(1-2 Blizzspammers)/(Stuff to smash Esca, Slowking, and other stuff that check Blizzspam) looks to be pretty damn potent. Hail Stall better not happen, because Wallrein is a whore no matter what, but otherwise this looks to be really neat :]

    edit: wow, ninja'd hard by molk on champfridge :[[[
  5. /B/utterfree

    /B/utterfree

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    While that may be true, would you care to provide an explanation as to why? Perchance both Cress and Nidoqueen can abuse Hail more effectively than others for entirely different reasons (It finally gives me motivation to use the hazard setting sets for Nidoqueen as opposed to straight up dunking nooblords with the sweeper set)? Last I recalled, Cress' Moonlight only recovers 25% health in Hail as opposed to 50% in weatherless (or ~67% in Sun!).

    I think testing Hail is a simply jolly idea. While I don't think the weather will be broken (other than Rotom-F and Glaceon, what else could viably be useful on a Hail team?), it will give you guys something to do in case Snover decides to be more than thoroughly mediocre. I find Champfridge (nice nickname, col49) to be useful in weatherless, and it can total Lanturn and Magneton with Hidden Power Ground, not to mention whatever else thinks it can be snug under the BoltBlizzard combo.
  6. SilentVerse

    SilentVerse Into the New World
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    Oh, I forgot to mention this in the OP, but Cresselia and Nidoqueen will also likely be suspects this round as well.
  7. superbadd

    superbadd

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    Wouldn't hail neuter both cresselia(moonlight cut/hail damage) and nidoqueen(blizzard/hail damage)? It would keep both of them from having too much longevity and easy switch ins. I think hail would balance things out. And since it's likely aboma may drop it looks like(unless it's banned) snover is here to stay. Btw specs modest glaceon has a chance 2HKO 252/252+ spd cresselia after rocks! That's pretty damn impressive.
  8. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest GHOSTS
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    Nidoqueen can actually take advantage of hail, because she can fire her own Blizzards which are pretty powerful.

    As mentioned earler, Rotom-F and Glaceon are sure to be some powerhouses this time around. BlizzSpamming is going to make these two a terror on the battlefield, and beware because those Blizzards are gonna hurt. Rotom-F also boasts amazing coverage in just Blizzard and T-Bolt. Which Rotom-F will be amazing.

    Anyways, Stallrein is back, and it's as great as ever from my experience. With Hail damage and Toxic, along with Ice Body to heal Walrein, it's an amazing staller. I use Toxic/Protect/Roar/Ice Beam and it has proven to be a success. Support Nidoqueen is good too. Snover is basically dead weight.

    Level 1 Solosis is trollsome. It has taken down opponents but...There are Cinccino and Golurk to eliminate it...

    Hitmonchan is a nice spinner for hail despite being pretty terrible otherwise. And Mandibuzz is....a terror.

    That aside, I think hail will be fine for now. Its weaknesses are exploitable. They share a Stealth Rock weakness, Fire and Fighting weakness, and so much that I seriously doubt it will be overpowered.
  9. col49

    col49 what.
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    In terms of Cress, yes, I am inclined to agree. In fact, neutering Cresselia's primary source of recovery and neutralizing Leftovers is a really cool boon to Hail Offense teams, as they don't have to prepare as hardily to be able to break through Cresselia. I've been running a Blizzspam-ish team lacking any of the conventional responses to Cress, and through proper offensive pressure and play I haven't encountered problems with the 'mon. This isn't to say that Cresselia doesn't remain an excellent 'mon as a whole, but the presence of hail is certainly doing more harm to it than good.

    As far as Nidoqueen goes, it's arguably better, depending on your outlook. Yes, the presence of Hail means more Blizzard's flying around, but at the same time Nidoqueen fills a huge niche in Hail teams in a bulky SR / TSpike user (and absorber in the case of the latter) with resistances to both Fighting- and Rock-type attacks. It even offers a decent check to Escavalier (aka the biggest slut to any Hail team :< )! This allows it to serve both defensively and offensively based Hail teams very well. In fact, I would argue that it's indispensable for Hail teams, if only for the niche it fills and the fact that it's so good in the current metagame.
  10. speed ghilliesniper

    speed ghilliesniper

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    Snover is basically dead weight to set the match in your favor with weather, but then again isn't that also what Smeargle does to an extent with hazards? Either way, the scarf set is ok but it's pretty weak, might try out a sub seed set but it's just so slow I'm not sure how it'll work.

    Regardless, t-spikes and rocks Nidoqueen is surprisingly good. I'v hated any support set on any of my teams until now, but t-spikes and Stallrein combine to form a deadly combo if there isn't a poison on the opposing side. Heck Stallrein even without t spikes is a freaking pain, especially to other hail teams. Molk can attest to this because I toxic stalled out his slowking and was in the process of stalling his Glaceon with it, along with 2 other teams on the ladder. Seriously, you need a powerful stab super effective move to kill this thing because other wise it'll just sit there and laugh at you until one of you pp stall.

    Life orb Cryogonal in hail acts as a really cool blizz spammer with great speed, good special attack, and even decent special defense to boot. Recover and rapid spin add utility which is icing on the cake, meaning that with a hidden power for coverage it acts as a unique blizz spamer, check to other blizz spammers with the right hp, and also an excellent offensive spinner to remove the hated stealth rocks.

    But, while it's fun, I don't think it's broken. Stealth rocks, any fast fire type like Entei or even something like a Sceptile with hp rock has the potential to just completely screw over half a team, and trying to pack counters to everything is near impossible. Cress, while slowed by hail, is still bulky as all get out. Calm mind Clefable is tough to beat if you're not packing a fighting move, and Escavalier is the bane of all weather teams except for sun, and if it runs overcoat (rare until hail catches on) it won't even be worn down by hail.
  11. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    I dont remember battling a single Stallrein during any of my matches, so that probably wasnt me, lol. But i can attest to walrein being a very potent defensive threat on hail teams. Walrein is incredibly bulky on both the physical side and the special side, and its perfectly capable of taking moves its weak to without much trouble (even decently powerful STAB ones, not something like Gallade Close Combat, though). Walrein's Ice Body ability effectively neuters its Stealth Rock weakness after two turns as well, making it slightly easier to switch the bulky walrus in when there are layers of hazards up. From there walrein can simply set up a Substitute and stall the opposing team for 32 turns, wherein they will repeatedly have to deal with residual hail damage, toxic damage if you have set up Toxic Spikes or used Toxic on the Pokemon you are stalling. In some cases, a properly supported Walrein can take on entire teams by itself with no trouble at all, definitely a threat to watch out for this time around! n_n
  12. taylangur

    taylangur

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    Why does RU even have any weather inducers... Hail is just too much for the tier imo. btw slowking counters both fire and the fighting types by himself. my entei was totally useless yesterday vs. a hail team... how to counter level 1 solosis btw
  13. BLINGAS ♥

    BLINGAS ♥

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    lets just ban all 3 of them :)
  14. Double01

    Double01 Hate it or love it the under dog's on top

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    Well after playing like 15 matches yesterday (only losing one to gear grind miss :/) I can tell that hail is hardly broken from what I've seen. Although my team has 2 very good counters to hail I'm not over preparing for it and I didn't lose to a single hail team. (though molk gave me a run for my money) I just think using hail puts you at a pretty big disadvantage from the start. I mean your pratically are already down 5-6 from the start and having at least half your team being weak to SR is never a good thing. Plus there numerous pokes able to stop blizzspam, slowking and lanturn being the 2 most common. Though it's only been like one day and anything can change I just think hail has too many flaws that outweigh the benefits.

    Though I'm dissappointed that hail dropping will likely keep cress and queen :(
  15. Texas Cloverleaf

    Texas Cloverleaf meh
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    Lanturn dies in like 6 seconds to Glaceon j/s :(

    Very disappointed in the people who voted to keep Cress in the tier, Hail is going to weaken Cress slightly and move it from being obnoxiously broken and walling 95% of the tier to still quite broken and walling 90% of the tier. Unfortunately the focus is going to be shifted off of Cress and on to Hail for a while and I'm starting to worry that we may have missed our chance to remove the most broken Pokemon the tier has ever seen (three times!) from our midst with the shift to a rotating council over the Senate. From what I've seen so far, Hail is powerful but not dominant, but will require a moderate shift in teambuilding to account for it. Stall in particular can no longer rely on a combination of Cress and a special tank (not wall) to take all of the special attacks that will come flying its way, particularly if the opposition loads up on Cresselia checks as well as Blizzard spammers. Lanturn in particular, lacking recovery cannot be seen as a decent Hail check as it will be 3HKOd by Glaceon's Blizzard without being able to do anything significant to it in return.

    Shifting topics again, I'm going to take the opportunity to promote one of the best sets in the tier at the moment, both before and I believe also after drop of Hail. Calm Mind RestTalk (abbreviated as CroTomb) Spiritomb holds claim to being one of only two foolproof Cresselia counters I have come across (the other being RestTalk Escavalier). Spiritomb boasts remarkable bulk, allowing it to begin to set of on the majority of physical attackers one will face, as well as any special attacker lacking a behemoth attacking stat. Once it accruse two Calm Minds, even things such as Life Orb Moltres and Magmortar begin to struggle to break it. Most importantly, it has no shortage of opportunity to come in and begin setting up when Cresselia arrives, putting Pressure (hehe) on the opposing team, particularly given its lack of status vulnerability.

    As for Cresselia herself, the vast majority of Pokemon she outright walls and turns into set up fodder is ridiculous. People list out her relatively limited list of checks and counters (usually along the lines of Drapion, Spiritomb, Escavalier and then a few others) and claim that for this reason she isn't broken, but they tend to ignore the fact that, without fail, she 100% walls just about every single other Pokemon in the tier. With the EV spread I run, 252 HP 116 SDef Calm, Cresselia becomes an instant counter to every special attacker in the tier, meaning only the aforementioned Pokemon and then scarce physical attackers such as Swords Dance Gallade and Swords Dance Kabutops have a shot at breaking through Cress. What's more, with the exception of Gallade (who Cress can in fact beat with smart play) every other Pokemon I've listed is defeated by Poliwrath, Cresselia's perfect mate. In short, we have two Pokemon who wall every single option the tier has bar a select few, with 95% of the work being done by Cresselia. Remember those outdated qualities of an Uber? Cresselia qualifies for BOTH the defensive characteristic due to it walling such a massive percentage of the tier, but also the support characteristic for the remarkably easy paralysis support, dual screens support, and weather support it provides -- though admittedly its support features would be unlikely to banworthy in and of itself.

    Furthermore the centralisation that I, SilentVerse and Windsong talked about in our suspect votes has become increasingly clear among both ladder and more serious battles. Essentially, if you don't carry 1 hard counter plus a check or multiple checks to Cresselia, you will lose without fail. If you use Pokemon that are easily walled by Cresselia you not only compromise the offensive or defensive integrity of your team you allow Cresselia to spread its status of choice without consequence throughout your team. What's more, Cresselia is somewhat versatile with its moveset options, and a single moveslot change can render your counter of choice moot, leaving Cress to destroy you unchallenged. Hidden Power Fire suddenly makes Escavalier a liability, as well as invalidating Drapion as an option. Calm Mind plus Ice Beam means that Cresselia can take out Crotomb with a crit, whereas Spiritomb must crit itself to take out Cress. Speaking of crits, did you know that in a Cresselia stall war, using the spread I listed above, opposing +6 Cresselia will fail to 2HKO you with consecutive critical hit Psychics? This is typically the point where one raises status, particularly Toxic as a means to stop Cresselia. This is a reasonably valid point so I will only say four things against it. First, on a defensive team, status should be irrelevant because a competent player will run Heal Bell to support both Cress and a team that likely carries at least one RestTalker. Second, offensive teams have no room or time to fit Toxic and are thus irrelevant in the equation. Third, Toxic is commonly run on only a few Pokemon, and is almost always telegraphed, making it very easy to predict from the most common Pokemon used to check Cress, Slowking and Cryogonal specifically coming to mind. Fourth and finally, if Toxic is indeed your primary option of dealing with Cress, you are completely screwed when you run into a SubCM Cress.
    (n.b. Trick is as easily telegraphed as Toxic, specifically from Manectric, one should always be scouting Uxie before leading their Cress against it)

    Now I'm not sure how this post shifted into a "why Cress is broken post," but I'll cap it off by saying that a well built stall team with the focus being should never lose, except to a combination of hax and the opponent carrying a surefire Cresselia counter. In fact, this is exactly what I found when laddering, and other battles. Except when the opponent carried RestTalk versions of Spiritomb or Escavalier, there was no Pokemon or combination of Pokemon that could pose a threat to Cresselia, and then an assortment of hazard setters/spinners/clerics that covered off niche options to reduce the burden of Cress having to wall the entire tier. Even when hax struck and took out CroTomb before it could sweep, I found myself more than once in a situation where I was down 4-2, 5-2, and was inevitably, slowly but surely wearing down the opponent because they could not break through the Cresselia / Poliwrath combination. I could not sweep because they still carried a Spiritomb or Escavalier, but nor could they wear me down thanks to Poliwrath shoring up Cresselia's few weakness. Thus, I was slowly able to wear down a team with forced switches and phazing.

    So, this post was initially just comment on the state of Hail and then a few of my experiences, seems its morphed into primarily about Cress. I'm out of things to say, so make of it what you will.
  16. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    Texas,Cress does not centrelize the RU meta,It JUST DROPPED give time for the meta to adapt,Also carry a strong Dark or Ghost move and you win,Since cress cant boost on the physical side,Just carry absol or CB Tomb or even Skuntank and you win not kidding,You dont need to carry a counter + check,And it does not wall 90% of the tier lol even glace can 2HKO it.And with hail neutering its recovery methods its forced to resttalk or dont use recovery wich is very bad for it.It is a S rank threat that just dropped of course its gonna be good,Nidoqueen isnt broken to me its just a very good pokemon,And this is coming from a guy who almost NEVER prepairs for nido.I dont think hail is broken,For Cress anf Nido I think we just want RU to have a real suspect too much but I understand hail though.
  17. Windsong

    Windsong .dancin
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    Oiawesome, you're seriously underestimating Cresselia's ridiculous bulk. Having a "strong Dark or Ghost move" isn't in any way enough preparation to handle Cresselia most of the time, and of the things that you claimed "beat" it, depending on its set Cresselia is perfectly capable of either beating or setting up 50/50 situations with either of them. Anyways, onto those calculations that I mentioned.

    Show Hide
    252+ LO Absol Pursuit vs (switching) 252/252 Cresselia: 53.2% - 63.5%
    252+ LO Absol Night Slash vs 252/252 Cresselia: 47.3% - 55.9% (16.24% chance to 2HKO with Leftovers)
    252+ LO Absol Megahorn vs 252/252 Cresselia: 53.60% - 63.06%

    252+ CB Spiritomb Pursuit vs (switching) 252/252 Cresselia: 49.1% - 58.1%
    252+ CB Spiritomb Pursuit vs 252/252 Cresselia: 24.8% - 29.7%

    252+ CB Drapion Pursuit vs (switching) 252/252 Cresselia: 43.7% - 51.8%
    252+ CB Drapion Pursuit vs 252/252 Cresselia: 22.1% - 26.1%
    252+ LO Drapion Crunch vs 252/252 Cresselia: 37.8% - 45% (3HKO)
    +2 252+ Drapion Crunch vs 252/252 Cresselia: 58.1% - 68.9%

    252+ CB Skuntank Pursuit vs (switching) 252/252 Cresselia: 49.1% - 58.1%
    252+ CB Skuntank Pursuit vs 252/252 Cresselia: 24.8% - 29.7%
    252+ LO Skuntank Crunch vs 252/252 Cresselia: 42.3% - 50.5% (3HKO)


    Looking at those calculations, it's pretty clear that even some of the best Cresselia "counters" out there are actually incapable of handling it all that well. The only Pokemon on that list that are capable of beating Cresselia perfectly every time are Taunt Drapion and Taunt Skuntank (who still lose to random CM HP Ground sets and stuff, but not going to take that into account). Cresselia can either Toxic or just boost up against CB Pursuit-locked Pokemon, as most of them are 5HKOing at best. The only Spiritomb that's consistently beating Cresselia is CroTomb.

    But the biggest qualm that I have with your post is that you state that Cresselia didn't centralize the metagame, which is just flat out untrue. It shifted the entire metagame towards Bug/Ghost/Dark types (although admittedly, the dropping of Escavelier somewhat helped with this). And I'm not sure where you're coming from about Cresselia not walling the vast majority of the tier - there are literally three notable Pokemon in RU that are capable of hitting Cresselia hard enough to leave a significant dent, and none of them can switch in on certain moves without being KOed or crippled for the remainder of the match. It's a ridiculously dominant defensive force, and it really needs to go.
  18. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    What can cress do back?And no it didnt centrelize the meta it made it adapt,look at the usage stats sure HO SPAM isnt as usable but it dosent shift to the meta to its weaknesses I play RU evrey day and I dont really see over centrelization js.And Ive faced cress a lot on the ladder and none of them seem to be the overly dominate forces that you talk about,Remember when evrey one kept saying "Oh rough skin chomp is gonna still be broken!" And then it wasent?Much more of over reaction than actualy beeing broken.Just give the meta time to adapt,Also cress is very healthy for the meta because remember that last boring only HO Meta?Yeah cress is the sole reason that meta dosent exist completely anymore.
  19. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Going to second Texas on Crotomb, i saw him talking about it on irc a few weeks ago and decided "hey, why not build a team around this nigga, he seems like a pretty awesome mon". I built a semistall team that revolved on using Spiritomb as a glue for the popular Cresselia+Poliwrath core that had been running around at the time. While the team itself had some holes i never bothered patching up (bs no wish or heal bell), it was a really fun team to use and the combination of Crotomb and Calm Mind Cresselia was often too much for my opponent to handle. Spiritomb was perfectly capable of setting up on various Pokemon such as slowking, lanturn, clefable, poliwrath, cresselia, and even some gallade for god's sake. Spiritomb's typing really came in handy and made it much easier to consistently get up to +6 during battle, Ghost/Dark left Spiritomb with 3 good immunities as well as no weakness for my opponent to prey on to stop me from setting up. While Crotomb does need some team support to cover its weaknesses (powerful Steel-types like Aggron, Escavalier, and Klinklang, as well as Haze Cryogonal are good examples of things you need to cover when running crotomb), it still fits into most defensive teams pretty well, covering a wide variety of threats and giving the team a way to set up a sweep with Calm Mind, use it more guys!
  20. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Cresselia can set up Calm Mind many times as it may to its will. It can run a Hidden Power; Fire makes Escavalier a liability, and Fighting kills Absol and Crawdaunt. If that's not needed then it can simply cripple its opponent with T-Wave. Not to mention Absol, Esca, and Crawdaunt are its only good counters (Drapion and Spiritomb are fucking awful at doing this 'cause they're weaklings). Cresselia+Poliwrath is near unbreakable, since Poliwrath can simply put, deal with anything Cress can't. Cress can hurt back after CM's; she gets the bulk of God as well as much offensive prowess. Cress isn't exactly 100% broken as a wall, but its capabilities are simply ridiculous. It has only three true counters, and its capabilities as a wall are too good. It's overcentralizing.
  21. superbadd

    superbadd

    Joined:
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    I've used mixed LO absol with t-bolt to deal with that core and it works well. Absol can 2HKO both poli and cress on the switch. Lilligant also works well against this core, she can put cresselia to sleep and then proceed to set up and destroy the opposing team. Specs/LO moltres can tear through that core pretty decently as well. SS omastar is also pretty good too. OHKO's poliwrath w/ HP and does over 60% to cress with hydro pump. There's also galvantula who can hit both poli and cress for SE stab. There are pokes that can deal with cresselia and her crew, you just have to think outside the box.
  22. Yonko7

    Yonko7 Guns make you stupid. Duct tape makes you smart.
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    I wonder if it's just me but hail isn't too powerful from I've seen. Sure you do have powerful users of Blizzard, and maybe a Stallrein, but they have a hard time. Hard time switching in due to their Stealth Rock weakness, and --possibly-- worst defensive type. Glaceon, for example, has a massive Special Attack, but often has a hard time switching in, and when it does its base 65 Speed isn't helping too much either. But Glaceon does have sheer power, and that alone could warrant its use. On the other end, Walrein is pooped on by Taunt, or a Substitute user, but when played right it can flat-line teams. Hail teams stock up on Blizzard users, Ice Body, etc. and this just compounds weaknesses, and support can be provided, but then the team has to worry about providing more support for their Pokemon, rather than taking down the opponent.

    Overall, the tier is so crazy, in the sense that their is so much going on--Hail, Nidoqueen, Cresselia, who do I worry about, who do I prepare for, etc.

    Edit: 400th post, yeah np thread.
  23. Valentine

    Valentine バレンタイン
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  24. Turnstoash

    Turnstoash

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    I'll preface my comments by acknowledging that I am not the most serious player. Really I've just been messing around with ledian. That being said, I did peak out at like 30 on the ladder (weak ladder?). Here are my experiences with said Pokemon:

    Nidoqueen:
    Can easily destroy my team. I usually end up sacrificing ledian to get a safe switch into a faster pokemon that can threaten it. I usually just chalk this up to bad teambuilding and assume there are checks and counters out there if I wanted to go find them. I would be happy to see it go, but I'd understand if it stayed.

    Cress:
    If just being stupid is a reason for banning, than this needs to get out as fast as possible. I don't have as much trouble with it as I used to, but just the fact that it takes nothing from any of my pokemon is infuriating. I get great pleasure when it switches into a toxic, although I've missed in those situations. Sub calm mind pretty much takes a dump on my team, dual screens is more annoying than anything else. In short, for making anything that isn't a check/counter useless(read A LOT of things) I wish this piece of garbage as far away as possible.

    Hail:
    One day I was enjoying my day on the ladder, when to my astonishment I learned hail was allowed into the tier. I watch my team get dismantled 3 battles in a row and almost left the tier. The main problem being the thing on my team best equipped to take blizzards (lanturn) had no reliable recovery outside of leftovers, and couldn't take on as many hits as the other team were throwing. It also became very hard to win the hazard war with sandslash, leaving my fire type vulnerable to being worn down. Add a slowking and I was doomed. Verdict: I'd very much this to go as well. I didn't even mention ice body.

    These are my opinions.
    I'm sure someone I've played that it's my fault for using such a crap team. I get it, pokemon is serious business. But at some point it stops getting fun to play because some things are just so stupid to play against. There's a difference between things that I'm way under-prepared for, (durant) and things that make otherwise perfectly viable Pokemon useless because you can't fit enough counters on your team. Thanks for taking my opinion into consideration. (Unless you didn't, then screw you)
  25. Omicron

    Omicron
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    DON'T BAN HAIL

    no seriously it's so much fun

    People just don't know how to play against it. I think it really adds a lot of variety to RU :)

    K bye

    Ps if you ban hail imma kill u sv and ogles

    Pps oh and yea cress is a bitch DGAF about nidoqueen
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