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Metagame np: SM PU Stage 0 (Beta): Medieval [Vanilluxe and Tauros Banned]

Discussion in 'PU' started by galbia, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. Many

    Many

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    926
    Hello everyone! The meta has been progressing fairly well, and I think it has balanced out a good amount even if there are still a bunch of broken stuff. Some pokemon that have stood out to me lately:
    - Alolan Raichu: A very effective cleaner with nice coverage and the ability to break even fatter teams if running Nasty Plot.
    - Vanilluxe: Few balance teams are truly prepared for Specs Blizzard, and Vanillluxe actually has decent enough speed and bulk that it usually can get multiple kills per game if played well.
    - Primeape: This pokemon is as reliable of a Choice Scarf user as it can get, easily fitting onto any team that needs a revenge killer. It has everything it needs- great STAB, speed tier, access to U-turn, and very usable coverage that can pressure some main fighting-checks.
    - Absol: Not as broken as I expected, but it thrives against both balance and even offense builds. Life Orb Pursuit sets are a personal favorite as they can cause mindgames with Sucker Punch.
    - Weezing: Really coming into its own as a defensive pokemon lately, and Tspikes are very helpful at wearing down most of the common teams. Works fantastic on bulky offense, and with priority abusers like Kangashkan.
    - Prinplup: It fits as hazard control on many teams that would rather have a water-type than Skuntank or Hitmonchan. Pairs great with pokemon like Klinklang, Gourgeist, Vanilluxe.

    I also want to share a few sets/pokemon I feel are underrated:
    [​IMG]
    Ninetales @ Firium Z
    Ability: Flash Fire
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nasty Plot
    - Fire Blast
    - Psyshock
    - Energy Ball

    Pyroar is the better choice most of the time, but Ninetales has a few unique tools it can bring to the table. Firstly, with Flash Fire it can take on choice-locked Pyroar and other fire-types, while pivoting into Sableye's wisp. Additionally with Nasty Plot, Ninetales can easily set up and break through bulky cores. Although Ninetales only has 81 SpA, Z-moves make up for it in a big way. At +2, it can beat pokemon like Hariyama, Hitmonchan, and Gastrodon unlike Pyroar, and outspeeds many pokemon that Magmortar cannot. Lack of immediate power is still an issue, but Ninetales overall is a usable niche option for a win-condition and special sweeper.
    [​IMG]
    Passimian @ Choice Band
    Ability: Receiver
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly / Adamant Nature
    - Close Combat
    - U-turn
    - Rock Slide
    - Iron Head

    I'd heard a lot of people say Passimian was bad so I decided to try it out, and it achieved beyond my expectations. Although not a great mon, it holds its own and actually offers up some useful niches over the other Fighting-types in the game. Passimian is like a heavyweight Primeape; in exchange for Ape's golden speed tier it trades in a good bit more power and bulk. 100 HP and 90 Defense are actually quite remarkable, and in battle I found that it helped Passimian take on a variety of pokemon that stuff like Gallade or Primeape could never dream of. It could switch in on Skuntank, on Piloswine, on Samurott, and just function well as a tank on a team that is looking for that kind of pokemon. Passimian is no Gallade, and is not going to decimate most balance cores, but between CC, U-turn, and coverage it functions more than adequately (bonus points for U-turning on Sableye to a Pursuiter). 80 speed tier is crowded but getting the jump on Rott and Chan is nice, and with Jolly you can even get Shiftry, Skunk, and Vanilluxe. Again, not a fantastic pokemon but it's worth trying out, especially when Gallade probably gets the boot.

    [​IMG]
    Altaria @ Leftovers
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 248 HP / 188 Def / 72 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Flamethrower
    - Toxic
    - Heal Bell / Haze / Moonblast

    Another ORAS mainstay that's been mostly forgotten about, but can still retain a relevant niche in my opinion. Altaria struggles quite a bit against some common pokemon like Piloswine, Jynx, and Granbull. However, on some very bulky teams it stands out as a pokemon that is able to take on Fire and Fighting-types at the same time, as well as a bunch of assorted defensive pokemon with Toxic + Natural Cure, such as Musharna, Gastrodon, Gourgeist, and Regirock. One thing going for Altaria at the moment is that one of the most relevant switch-ins to Toxic at the moment, Ferroseed, is 4x weak to Fire. Make sure you pair this pokemon with bulky pokemon that can cover its weaknesses, and it can prove useful. Heal Bell is a great support move, Haze can help a bunch with pokemon like SD Samurott, DD Charizard, and SD Scyther, and Moonblast is an option to make the matchup vs fighting-types and Sableye stronger. The given EV spread lets you live two Pyroar Choice Specs Hyper Voices from full, while still having the bulk to check various physical attackers.

    [​IMG]
    Kangaskhan @ Silk Scarf
    Ability: Scrappy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant / Jolly Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Double-Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic

    Yeah I know I have a fetish for Toxic. Blame ADV PU. Anyway, dual priority is one of the main draws of using Kanga, but the moveslot for Sucker Punch can be dropped if you are feeling reasonably comfortable against speedy offense. There are a bunch of options Kanga can run, such as Fire Punch or Facade, but Toxic is just one that can pressure some of the bulkier builds that are running around now. Toxic pressures many of the fat walls in the meta, such as Gourgeist, Quagsire, and Regirock. Using Toxic on the switch and then pivoting out can be helpful in the long run, especially after wearing the opponent down with hazards, but you can also click Toxic as they go for recovery/rocks/whatever. Just another option to keep in mind if your team is struggling a little with fat stuff.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  2. galbia

    galbia be the freak you want to see just don't follow me
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,351
  3. ChrystalFalchion

    ChrystalFalchion
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,545
    Not surprised by any of those bans tbh.

    With Gallade gone, I needed a wallbreaker and stumbled on this old set from XY RU.

    [​IMG]
    Granbull @ Choice Band
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Atk / 44 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Play Rough
    - Close Combat
    - Fire Punch / Facade
    - Earthquake / Facade

    With Intimidate and its Fairy typing, Granbull can easily force switches, which it uses to fire off monstrously powerful attacks. While it's weaker and slightly slower than Aggron, it makes up for it with more switch in opportunities and a more reliable STAB. Speaking of, that's what Play Rough is for. It 2HKOes pretty much anything that doesn't resist it, and even some frailer things that do. Close Combat hits the Steel types that resist Play Rough, OHKOing Aggron doing massive damage to Audino. Fire Punch also hits Steel types, OHKOing Wormadam-Trash and 2HKOing Torterra. Earthquake hits the Fire and Poison types that resist Play Rough, and lets you hit Steel types without stat penalties. Facade can be used over either of those last moves if you don't miss the coverage, as it gives you insurance in case of Burns. EVs maximise Attack with enough Speed to outrun uninvested base 50s, with the rest in HP for bulk. This thing can rip stall teams wide open.

    Wall of calcs (open)

    252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Play Rough vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Haunter: 213-252 (92.2 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Fire Punch vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Tangela: 152-180 (45.5 - 53.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Play Rough vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 123-145 (39.1 - 46.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 16+ Def Regirock: 200-236 (54.9 - 64.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 4 Def Audino: 460-542 (112.1 - 132.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Facade (140 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Weezing: 151-178 (45.2 - 53.2%) -- 89.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Choice Band Granbull Earthquake vs. 40 HP / 140 Def Lanturn: 428-504 (106.7 - 125.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


    No more Vivillion? Oh well, here are some other special sweepers you could try.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Sets (open)

    Lilligant (F) @ Normalium Z / Leftovers
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Quiver Dance
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Hyper Beam / Sleep Powder

    Charizard @ Firium Z
    Ability: Solar Power
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sunny Day
    - Fire Blast
    - Solar Beam
    - Roost

    Butterfree @ Buginium Z / Life Orb
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Quiver Dance
    - Bug Buzz
    - Roost
    - Sleep Powder


    Lilligant and Butterfree are the standard Quiver Dance sets. People, don't run Focus Sash on Lilligant - Normalium Z Hyper Beam is much more useful, and if you can't spare the Z crystal use Leftovers, Life Orb or Meadow Plate. Focus Sash is for suicide leads and Kadabra - nothing else. Buterfree's niche is Tinted Lens, which lets it hit everything apart from Charizard and Togetic for neutral damage with Bug Buzz. Much like Vivillion, it can also put a would be check out of commission with Sleep Powder. You could also run a Timid nature, but I prefer Modest as it has much more power. You still outrun Tauros at +1 anyway. Charizard can function as either a late game sweeper or a wallbreaker. Z Sunny Day gives +1 Speed, whiel Solar Power gives it +1 Special Attack. You could also save your Z crystal for Fire Blast, as a sun boosted Inferno Overdrive will pretty much one shot everything that doesn't resist it.
  4. Aaronboyer

    Aaronboyer formerly Boyeraj17

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2014
    Messages:
    177
    Hey guys! So way back during Speculative PU I wrote a post about SuMo Weather Teams and some of the new PU Pokemon that benefited from Weather. Obviously there is a HUGE difference in the PU roster from Speculation to Beta, so I'd like to update you on some of the Pokemon used on current PU Weather teams. See my original PU Weather post here.

    Sun Teams
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Sun Teams are usually the most appealing Weather Team to use due to Fire + Grass hitting everything in the tier for neutral damage bar Dragon and Fire-types. Sun Teams revolve around utilizing powerful Chlorophyll Pokemon, and PU has a wide selection to choose from. Lilligant is fastest and most dangerous one because of her access to Quiver Dance, Sleep Powder, Healing Wish, Solar Beam, and Hidden Power. Exeggutor, while albeit slower, is much stronger with a STAB base 125 Special Attack, and trades Quiver Dance and Healing Wish for Psyshock and Psychic STAB. Victreebel has a Fire-Type Weather Ball which hits Steel-Types who usually wall Grass-Types as well as Growth, which in Sun, gives Victreebel +2 +2 Attack and Special Attack. Leafeon and Sawsbuck are the primary Physical Chlorophyll abusers. Leafeon has better bulk and Knock Off while Sawsbuck has Normal STAB and unique coverage moves like Wild Charge and Jump Kick. Shiftry provides fast hazard control support for your Fire-Type, which is usually Magmortar or Charizard. Lastly, Sun Teams usually care a dedicated lead like Onix, Golem, or Regirock, as well as a Mid-game setter, like Volbeat and Liepard. Tangela and Carbink are usually niche picks, but perform satisfactory under Sun as well.

    Example Team: http://pokepast.es/b1a8ba9e8fa1a2b3

    Rain Teams
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Believe it or not, PU has even more Swift Swim abusers than Chlorophyll abusers. Like Sun Teams, Rain Teams will usually have one dedicated Rain lead (Carracosta or Relicanth) and one Mid-game setter (Volbeat or Liepard). The Physical Swift Swim abusers are Beartic, Kabutops, Carracosta, Armaldo, Floatzel, Huntail, and Relicanth, and the Special Swift Swim abusers are Poliwrath, Ludicolo, Floatzel, Gorebyss, and Golduck. Most Rain teams will include at least one Shell Smasher, which includes Carracosta, Gorebyss, and Huntail. Most Rain teams also usually have one Electric-Immunity which may include Manectric or Zebstrika. Lastly it should be noted that Ludicolo's Grass Typing makes it neutral to Grass and Electric and that Kabutops is the only Swift Swim Pokemon to have hazard control via Rapid Spin.

    Sand Teams
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Even though Sand have the fewest abusers, it's also the most underrated Weather Type! Hippopotas is PU's only Auto-Sand setter, and with moves such as Slack Off and Stealth Rock at his disposal, Hippopotas can provide Sandstorm utility throughout the entire match. Due to Sand Rush, both Stoutland and Sandslash double their speed. Stoutland has great wallbreaking capabilities with unresisted Normal/Fighting/Dark coverage., and Sandslash has the ability to break teams with Swords Dance and EdgeQuake. Alolan-Dugtrio, while frail, becomes absurdly strong with a Life Orb in tandem with Sand Force. Lastly, Kadabra adds a fast special attacker to Sand Teams, and he will never have his Focus Sash broken by the raging sandstorm.

    Hail Teams
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    While Aurorus + Alolan-Sandslash may have went to NU, Hail teams still thrive by using Aurora Veil to their advantage. Abomasnow and Vanilluxe are our 2 remaining Snow Warning users, and their ability to auto-set Hail proves invaluable for the Aurora Veil setter, usually Alolan-Sandshrew or Jynx, but could also be Articuno or Regice. The Pokemon that most benefit under Aurora Veil are set-up sweepers, which may include Barbaracle, SD Scyther, and Hariyama. While Beartic does double his speed under hail, he doesn't have good type synergy with either Abomasnow or Vanilluxe, and is overall a niche pick.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
    Good J, wishes, Phat Albert and 21 others like this.
  5. Liquidocelot

    Liquidocelot

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    IT'S TIME TO BE FREE!!!

    [​IMG]

    Did you like using Vivillion? Are you sad that it's gone? Well then boy do I have the pokemon for you. Ladies and gentleman the generation 1 butterfly is back tgo claim it's rightful throne as best butterfly ever!



    Set (open)
    Butterfree @ Buginium Z/Flynium Z
    Ability: Tinted Lens
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Bug Buzz/Air Slash
    - Quiver Dance
    - Sleep Powder/Bug Buzz/Air Slash.
    - Hidden Power Fire/Rock/Air Slash/Bug Buzz/Giga Drain/Energy ball/Shadow ball.

    Wait what does Butterfree do better then other QD sweepers like Liligant? Well It has tinted lens of course allowing it to essentially deal normal damage against all but quad resists. To put this into perspective you essentially have a pokemon that can deal an 175 base power stab attack that is only resisted by charizard and haunter... Yeah boom!

    Bug Buzz/Air slash as your top move is your Z-move of choice and for stab. Bug Buzz is a more powerful stab KOing more things at +1 and producing the 175 BP Savage Spinout, Air Slash is a weaker alternative that is able to hit things like Charizard and Haunter harder along with the masses of powerful fighting types in the tier. QD is the obvious boosting move and crux of this set. The third move can either go to sleep powder or because you're forgoing compound eyes you can add your other stab option. The last slot is mainly used as coverage to cover the threats you're missing out on. HP fire is for Ferroseed, Rock for Charizard/Other fire types, AS/BB are secondary stab moves, Giga drain/EB are for the likes of Quagsire and Gastrodon and Pyumukumu who could stall you all day and shadow ball is for Haunter.


    Calcs (open)
    Some basic calcs for you all.

    +1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 64 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest Magmortar: 232-274 (75.5 - 89.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Eviolite Ferroseed: 250-295 (85.9 - 101.3%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 180-213 (49.5 - 58.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Regice: 121-144 (33.3 - 39.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252+ SpA Regice Ice Beam vs. +1 0 HP / 0 SpD Butterfree: 218-258 (83.5 - 98.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 208 HP / 0 SpD Assault Vest
    Hitmonchan: 204-242 (69.6 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Tinted Lens Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Charizard: 188-222 (63.2 - 74.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Primeape: 296-351 (109.2 - 129.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Assault Vest Bouffalant: 153-183 (38.9 - 46.5%) -- 30.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Tauros: 333-394 (114.4 - 135.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Gastrodon: 183-216 (42.9 - 50.7%) -- 2% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    252 SpA Life Orb Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Unaware Quagsire: 211-250 (53.5 - 63.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Eviolite Gurdurr: 257-304 (68.7 - 81.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252+ Atk Gurdurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Butterfree: 172-203 (65.9 - 77.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    252+ Atk Piloswine Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Butterfree: 206-246 (78.9 - 94.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 252 SpA Butterfree Savage Spin-Out (175 BP) vs. 220 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Piloswine: 336-396 (84.8 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    4 Atk Life Orb Vanilluxe Ice Shard vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Butterfree: 187-221 (71.6 - 84.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    +1 252 SpA Life Orb Tinted Lens Butterfree Bug Buzz vs. 0 HP / 252+ SpD Eviolite Haunter: 75-91 (32.4 - 39.3%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock I know this would never happen but wanna show it off.

    I can do this all day. Not a single pokemon in PU can switch into a +1 SS and 90% of them can't switch into a +1 BB after Stealth rock. This thing is powerful and this is all Timid free too.


    Checks (open)
    Only doing checks as I can't find anything that is a 100% counter to this thing.

    AV Magmortar is a decent check as it can ko with an FB but loses to a Savage spinout after rocks, Scarf Mortar can revenge too but you can't switch it in.

    Hitmonchan can take 1 SS after rocks and KO with Ice Punch but you can't switch in.

    Charizard can take a single SS outside of rocks and Ko back with a Flare Blitz or Fire Blast.

    ScarfApe can revenge but can't switch in.

    Pilloswine can KO it with ice shard with prior damage earlier same with Vanilluxe.

    If lacking E-ball/Giga Drain Gast/Pyumukumu can come in and toxic you but can't switch in.

    If specially Defensive Ferro can come in and T-wave you ruining your day but can't switch in.

    ^Audino.

    Regice can take a SS after SR but can't switch in.

    Kang can revenge with Fake out+SP but can't switch in also loses if mispredicts the SP.

    Besides that there's nothing that actually counters it if it's running the right set.


    Guys it's butterfree's time to shine and I hope I've showed that she is easily one of the biggest threats in the entire meta right now and should not be looked down upon.
    MaroGod likes this.
  6. SergioRules

    SergioRules

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2015
    Messages:
    95
    As similar to Vivillon as Butterfree is, it is nowhere near a replacement. Tinted Lens is a nice ability, but the biggest thing holding back Butterfree is that its stats are simply not good. They're similar to Vivillon, but Butterfree doesn't have Viv's speed. Too many fast Pokemon are running around PU with Choice Scarves so they can specifically beat Quiver Dancers like Lilligant (and Vivillon before it got banned). Since Butterfree is already slower than Vivillon, these faster scarfers along with Pokemon that are naturally faster than a +1 Butterfree easily revenge kill it. In addition to that, Butterfree also has its 4x weakness to rocks and much less overall bulk than Lilligant, not to mention the power difference between their special attack stats in Butterfree's 90 vs Lilligant's 110. Yeah Tinted Lens is a good ability, but it's not near good enough on Butterfree to warrant being used over Lilligant or being called one of the biggest threats in the metagame, as that's simply just not true.
  7. PenguinAssault

    PenguinAssault

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    TOXIC SPIKES
    [​IMG]

    Okay, so with the bans just coming in, I thought it would be a good idea to talk about one of the best entry hazards that a lot of people aren't including in their teams. Toxic Spikes--in my opinion--are a win-con just by themselves in this meta. We have in total 8 grounded poisons, but most of them are relatively uncommon besides Skuntank, so with a Toxic Spiker on your team, you can get some valuable status on mons to wear them down, which is useful against bulky threats like Musharna, Quagsire, Sableye, etc. Beyond that, we only have 10 viable steel types, with about only 3 of them being super common, meaning that a lot of the time the poison type you bring to stack hazards can do a ton in a match besides just tspikes. In my opinion, toxic spikes are abundantly helpful in being able to take out threats that your team would normally have to use many supplies on, and with the omnipotence of bulky offense and threats being clear in our meta (Musharna/Regirock/Pyukumuku/Quagsire/Gourg etc.), they are a very strong tool when built around.

    [​IMG] TOXIC SPIKES SETTERS[​IMG]
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]

    Explanations (open)

    Here are, in my opinion, the only 5 viable toxic spikers, as the other ones are in LC, and Venipede is almost solely better as a suicide lead than Whirlipede is due to the speed tier over 50 which helps it set the tspikes. Anyway, let me go into briefly the roles of each of these on your team and what they contribute to the meta.

    [​IMG] : Weezing is arguably the best poison type we have in the tier due to the sheer amount of bulk it has as well as great utility moves in Will-O-Wisp and Haze, Toxic Spikes, Taunt and Pain Split. Weezing stands out in the PU Beta metagame as an extremely good check to many fighting types such as Hariyama/Gurdurr/Primeape and on top of that destroys common Fairy checks such as Silvally, Granbull and Togetic. Weezing works extremely well with Toxic Spikes as well because it can usually afford to be pivoted out multiple times, it can cripple enemies with Will-O (not always the best option due to Tspike already), and it only has one weakness in Psychic which you can fit your team around to fix, due to levitate being quite an amazing ability for Weezing. Definitely the top user of Tspikes imo, and it's natural bulk helps it so much (Scyther 4hKo's it with Aerial Ace) in dealing with common threats of the meta, especially with Gallade gone. Finally, cores such as Weezing and Probopass work super well to cover each other's weaknesses and take down some of the biggest threats in our tier such as Musharna which can be extremely helpful

    [​IMG] : Roselia is quite a =special attacker, and it's bulk with Eviolite is definitely manageable. Roselia can be played in either an Offensive Role or a Defensive Role, and having nice SpD definitely helps. Leaf Storm is quite a hard hitting STAB move, and 2HKO's most relevant threats, as well as threatening Barbaracle/Quagsire/Pyukumuku. It also serves as a nice Electric/Water/Grass resist in a tier where many do not stand, just be careful of mons like Scyther or Charizard that can OHKO you easily. I would say Roselia is a decent TSpiker, and it's a great lead due to the fact that it gains both Spikes and Tspikes, so you can usually fit it on a team. Finally, Natural Cure is a pretty cool niche as a status absorber

    [​IMG] : Venipede stands as one of PU's greatest suicide leads, and with it's innate base speed is able to outspeed base 50's and 55's which helps loads due to the normality of having lead Stealth Rockers at Base 50 or 55 (Golem, Piloswine, Golurk to name a few) and thus makes it better than it's next evolution, Whirlipede. Focus Sash combined with Speed Boost allow this mon to almost always get off two layers of Toxic Spikes, and if you see a Skuntank on their team, you can get off layers of Spikes and Endeavor regardless. This mon is a lot better than I think people give it credit for, as it basically takes the opponent's lead down with it due to Endeavor and Focus Sash (unless they have priority), and it puts in work throughout the game even when it's dead.

    [​IMG] : Mareanie (no sprite available) stands out as actually a quite bulky mon, and thanks to it's niche ability in Regenerator, can come in quite a bit even if Skuntank is on the opponet's team to set spikes up again and again. This fact, coupled with it's fighting resist and access to reliable recovery helps it to become a viable toxic spike setter. This mon alone can toxic stall out opposing threats just by clicking recover after they fall on the spikes, and coupled with mons such as Shiftry or Tangela, it works super well to do this. Mareanie in my eyes is very underrated, and a regenerator toxic spiker definitely does well in this meta.

    Basically, I believe it goes as this: Weezing offers great bulk on top of a hard hitting stab move, with only one weakness and some stellar moves that can cripple all playstyles, so I believe it is undoubtedly the best Toxic Spiker as well as overall poison mon that we have, besides something like Skuntank. Roselia can be a powerhouse in it's own right as well, and has the added bonus of being resistant to some common attacking types, as well as being able to set both sets of entry hazards. Venipede has access to both, and almost always can set them as well as severely weaken the opposing lead, and Mareanie is a defensive mon that can switch in multiple times and toxic stall other mons out, basically becoming a Tspike abuser and setter. Overall, I think that these 4 mons play well in the meta as it currently is, due to the shift we are seeing towards a more slow balance/semi-stall playstyles and I think that not very many people look towards general tspike hazards to help get the job done.



    [​IMG] TEAM OPTIONS AND CHECKS[​IMG]
    TEAM MEMBERS
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    CHECKS
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Explanation (open)

    More so than the actual mons, the team options and checks of Toxic Spikes is very moldable to what you are trying to go for in your team. Mons like Sableye help tremoundously in taunt support, as well as being able to toxic stall out, and serve as a psychic soak, while also doubling as a spinblocker and can be a win-con by itself. Alolan Persian offers the fastest taunt support other than Electrode, and also serves as a psychic soak. Mons like Lycanroc can offer their fast rock typing to beat down flying mons that don't get affected by the tspikes, and in general are good for hazard stacking, where as mons like Probopass offer a more defensive alternative, still being able to set up hazards as well, but also offering momentum. Finally, if taunt fails, you can always add defiant mons to boost the attack by 2 stages which can turn into quite a scary scenario. Toxic Spikes are countered by Skuntank almost solely, as it can not only absorb them, but also defog other hazards away, so if you see one of these, it's best to take it out before setting up hazards (Skuntank in this meta is actually super frail, it likes either a choice banded set or an offensive pursuit set, so taking it out after setting rocks or something can be an easy task, and then just pivot to your weezing or something right after). After that, fast flying mons like Charizard and Scyther can float above these, which is why it's usually important to have some stealth rock support or fast rock mons like Lycanroc. Finally, steel types are immune to the tspikes, but there aren't too many steels that will come in now that Klinklang is gone, and if they do, you can have earthquake/close combat support from your team in Defiant Primeape or other fighting types.



    Okay, so overall, I do think that using Toxic Spikes is actually quite a strong option in the meta right now, and stacking hazards with these already good mons along with the fact that we have quite a few good spin-blockers in a meta dominated by fighting types and bulky mons such as Musharna gives an individual great advantages and power within a given game . With this in mind, I hope you learn to use them and wear them down in 6 turns (5 after hazards) of toxic :). Good luck!

    Sets (open)


    [​IMG]
    Weezing @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 148 Def / 108 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Will-O-Wisp/Pain Split/Haze
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Taunt/Pain Split/Haze
    - Toxic Spikes

    [​IMG]
    Roselia @ Eviolite/Focus Sash
    Ability: Natural Cure
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 SpA / 216 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Leaf Storm
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Spikes/Hidden Power Rock/Fire

    [​IMG]
    Mareanie @ Eviolite
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP/ 252 Def/ 4 SpA
    Calm Nature
    - Scald
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Recover
    - Toxic Spikes

    [​IMG]
    Venipede @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Speed Boost
    EVs: 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Spikes
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Protect
    - Endeavor


    [​IMG] THANKS FOR READING[​IMG]




    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
  8. SergioRules

    SergioRules

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2015
    Messages:
    95
    Butterfree talk aside, I wanted to give my opinion on the recent bans and maybe discuss what could be discussed next. This stuff is all my opinion so obviously don't take it as "this mon is definitely broken and should go right away."

    [​IMG]Musharna: I was in the group that just figured this mon was broken because everyone else said so. But after playing with and against it myself, I didn't find too much problem with it. The Barrier set can't touch dark types and the Fairium Z set can be easily worked around with strong physical attacks, which we have no shortage of. I understand why it was on the slate, but glad it's still here so we can see if its use changes with these other new bans.
    [​IMG]Gallade: I think I speak for everyone when I say, THANK GOD THIS THING IS GONE. SD Z move sets were insanely hard to work around and although there were many things faster than it, I still found it very hard to teambuild. Every team almost had to use defensive Granbull or Togetic to beat this without having to sack a mon, and even then those could get beaten by a boosted Z move if slightly weakened. Good change for the tier imo.
    [​IMG]Vivillon: Vivillon was a mon that I almost didn't see how broken it was, but when people started using Safety Goggles Oricorios, I knew something was wrong. The thing that I think made this more broken than Lilligant was the much stronger STAB move in Hurricane. Extremely limiting in teambuilding, I saw the ban coming a mile away.
    [​IMG]Barbaracle: I'm not surprised this was up for debate as it is a powerful set up sweeper. Though I haven't found it nearly as splashable as things like Viv or Lilligant probably because of its lack of sleep move, but also because even at +2, a lot of things could still check it to some degree. If it runs a Z move, then it gets the -1 defenses and can't stay around as long especially with Mach Punch being one of the best forms of priority in the tier. Though if it runs White Herb, it can't break as many would-be checks like Gurdurr, Gastrodon etc.. Overall, glad it's still here.
    [​IMG]Klinklang: I had no idea this one was coming but looking back I can see why. A lot of the counterplay to this mon was going into your water type while this sets up in your face, clicking Scald and hoping you get a burn. And unless your water type was Gastrodon, Quagsire, or Lanturn, you had to fear a possible Steelium or Electrium Z boosted move if you didn't get the burn. Thought even despite all that, still sad to see this gone.
    [​IMG]Absol: Surprised this one came up as an issue. Not that it's not a good mon, I just haven't seen a lot of it. Considering it was on of the mons we got between Alpha and Beta, I figured a lot of people would be using it. Strong physical Dark type (so it's immune to Sableye's Will-o-Wisp) and is probably one of the reasons that Musharna isn't as big of a problem as I expected. SD Life Orb sets can sweep teams if played correctly and Z moves help this thing break through other would-be checks. It does have a case of 4MSS though with things like SD, Knock, Sucker, being almost mandatory and Play Rough, Iron Tail, Superpower, even a lure in Fire Blast all being options. Though I'm sure 4 attacks sets work just fine. Because it can't do everything at once, I see why it's not broken enough for a ban. Its speed also keeps it held back a little though the STAB priority helps. Good mon, not sure if I think it's worthy of a ban yet.
    [​IMG]Lilligant: Honestly, I'm not too certain why this wasn't banned and Vivillon was, thought I assume it's again because of the more powerful STAB. I think Lilligant's bulk allows for much easier opportunities to set up and STAB Giga Drain improves its longevity. Lack of weakness to rocks and even that slightly better speed than Vivillon also makes me curious as to why this wasn't banned as well.

    Now for some things I think could be issues down the road.
    [​IMG]Lilligant: For the same reasons Vivillon was banned, I think Lilligant might become too much for the tier. Hopefully though, we do keep it with ways to work around it.
    [​IMG]Sableye: Hoping this get more looked at. It's extremely hard to work around and it forces a lot of 50/50s with Taunt usage. Granted it can be played around with things like the aforementioned Absol, but it still is a fairly great defensive mon and limits teambuilding to always have a way of somehow getting around the Taunt games. There have been a few games I've had where I don't have enough counter play to Sableye and I end up unable to break through it, hoping for special defense drops or crits with Earth Power or things like that, eventually being worn down and unable to recover health or Toxic it because of Taunt.
  9. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    292
    Personally, I am still incredibly skeptical about Musharna. The Klinklang ban means there are even less viable Steel types that can wall it. People always say "Oh the Barrier set can't touch Dark types", but that seems like questionable logic to me for a few reasons. For one thing, you gotta reply on one type to beat one set: Even Steel types can be muscled through with enough stat boosts. Also, if your Dark type is KOed early, Musharna can just come in and start setting up, and due to it's huge bulk, there isn't much you can do to stop it at that point. And all of this is completely invalidated if it's actually Twinkle Tackle. Psychium Z can be run to give Stored Power immediate offensive pressure, but more importantly, it cancels out the possibility of something like Haunter Tricking it. Taunt isn't a feasible option either, since there are few viable users of this move currently in the tier. I really feel like the council not quick-banning it was a huge mistake, and will cause the meta to suffer until it is banned.
  10. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,094
    I disagree entirely with your logic.
    "If you let your dark type die early in the game, you lose to it!" - I don't mean to sound rude, but if you let your water resist die early in a game, you lose to samurott. If you let your fighting resist die in a game, you lose to gurdurr or hariyama. Using that as an argument is not a strong base to stand on.
    Secondly, with the meta how it is and how powerful some attackers are in this tier, it's so easily pressured due to its vulnerability to status, slow speed tier and generally it's got a bad case of 4mss, where it can't run barrier, heal bell, moonlight, stored power, psyshock, gleam, lefties and farium and psychium-z all in one set, it has to choose between them. The most threatening set (barrier cm) is completely a momentum drain if they have a dark type on their team, and with the amount of dark types I see around in PU, it's over half the battles where i see one, not because they're being used to check musharna, but because they're very splashable and threatening anyway, with pokemon like shiftry, raticate-a, absol, skuntank etc. And the 2 attacks z-move set is a) weak to chip damage as it has no lefties, b) not very threatening as it is usually pressured quite easily with the amount of physical attackers we have in the tier.
    I chose not to ban musharna because I believed we had enough tools in PU to deal with it regularly, and a lot of people seem to agree with me. I also encourage you to give it a chance rather than begging for it to be quickbanned, beta has been out for less than 2 weeks.
  11. Twix

    Twix chill out
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Nov 14, 2014
    Messages:
    1,093
    To kick off the new metagame I'd like to drop a cool team that I've been using today to some solid success, except when Sir Kay demolished me with his Carracosta.

    Bulky Offense
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    So this is a fun team that I've been playing around with based on the core of Calm Mind Musharna + CroMunchlax + Pursuit Skuntank. This team may look like it gets 6-0'd by Vivillon and Gallade, which it does, so luckily they're banned. This team basically has a switch-in for everything in the metagame, and has some major threats capable of sweeping. To start off, Choice Band Skuntank was the much needed Ghost-, Dark- and Psychic-type trapper, as well as a Grass- and Fairy-type answer. From there, I have my two main win-cons. CroMunchlax is really bulky and effective late-game, and acts as a check to Fire- and Ice-types such as Pyroar and Vanilluxe, as well as Special Attacking threats. Musharna was also very effective, is able to take on Fighting-types, and take out Dark-type threats with Fairium Z if need be. From there, I have my main defensive switch-in in Granbull, which also functions as a cleric with Heal Bell. Specs Vanilluxe is a gigantic threat in the metagame which can defeat teams on its own. Additionally, it can easily beat weather teams with Snow Warning. Sandslash was needed for a few reasons. It is the teams hazard remover, hazard setter, and Electric-type switch-in. Overall, the team works very well in being bulky and winning late-game with either Munchlax or Musharna.
    importable (open)

    Skuntank @ Choice Band
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Sucker Punch
    - Poison Jab
    - Crunch
    - Pursuit

    Munchlax @ Eviolite
    Ability: Thick Fat
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Curse
    - Body Slam
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Musharna @ Fairium Z
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Calm Mind
    - Psyshock
    - Moonlight

    Granbull @ Normalium Z
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 Def / 44 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Heal Bell
    - Play Rough
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Blizzard
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon

    Sandslash @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 160 HP / 252 Def / 96 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Earthquake
    - Toxic

    Offense
    Additionally, I'm going to post another team I made that's worked really well and is way more offensive than the other one. This team was built with Swords Dance Charizard as the main Pokemon, which other offensive threats such as Alolan Exeggutor and Gurdurr. Funnily enough, this team also uses Skuntank and Vanilluxe, although Skuntank fufills a different role.

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    ^imagine this is a little bit taller
    So to start off, Skuntank was the obligatory entry hazard remover with both Charizard and Vanilluxe on the team. Additionally, it has access to Acid Spray and Taunt to allow it to take on bulkier teams such as stall much more easily. From there, as in the last team, Specs Vanilluxe is on the team to blow up walls and to take on weather teams. From there, Alolan Exeggutor was there to switch things up and be a self Trick Room setter, as well as a Special Wallbreaker with the Dragonium Z. Unfortunately there's no Fifth gen sprite so I had to work with what I had. From there, Gurdurr is a very strong Fighting-type which can break down teams effectively using Bulk Up and has access to priority to hit things like boosted Carracosta and Barbaracle. Clefairy was the team's chosen Stealth Rock user since it checks Fighting-types and has access to Healing Wish to support one of the team's sweepers. The last member is the aforementioned Swords Dance Charizard, which is a beast with dual STABs in Acrobatics and Flare Blitz, as well as coverage in Earthquake. It's the star of the team and it has really shown in the games that I've played with.
    import (open)

    Skuntank @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Defog
    - Acid Spray
    - Dark Pulse
    - Taunt

    Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Blizzard
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    Exeggutor-Alola @ Dragonium Z
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpA / 8 SpD
    Quiet Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Trick Room
    - Draco Meteor
    - Leaf Storm
    - Flamethrower

    Gurdurr @ Eviolite
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 Atk / 64 Def / 84 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Knock Off
    - Bulk Up

    Clefairy @ Eviolite
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Healing Wish
    - Moonblast
    - Soft-Boiled

    Charizard
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Swords Dance
    - Flare Blitz
    - Earthquake

    Stall
    Finally, I'd like to post a stall team which I made pre-bans, but I believe still holds strong in the current metagame. It focuses on Curse Quagsire as a win condition and Silvally-Fairy as a check to threats such as Shiftry and Fighting-types, while being an effective phaser with Roar. This team looks stupid with sixth gen mons unfortunately so the sprites can't all be cool 5th gen ones.
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    To begin, Quagsire was the main attraction of this Stall team, working as both a wincondition with Curse as well as a check to Physical boosters such as non-Grass Knot Barbaracle. It's one of the only Pokemon with actually damaging attacks, and it's really effective overall. Vibrava is one of my main special walls, as well as my main answer to threats such as Z Sunny Day Charizard, which could be a large threat to this team. It also works as the source of entry hazard removal for the team, as well as an immunity to both Ground- and Electric-type attacks. Bronzor is a really cool Pokemon, which works as the main check to threats such as Jynx and Vanilluxe, while working as the Stealth Rock setter. Gourgeist-XL is the main defensive wall on the team, basically checking every single one that can't hit it with a super-effective hit (bar Knock Off). Audino is the glue that really ties the team together through its usage of Wish and Heal Bell. Additionally, Regenerator allows it to sustain itself while being the main Special Defensive wall. Finally, Silvally-Fairy checks threats such as Shiftry and Fighting-types, which I mentioned before, and functions as a pivot with Parting Shot. That's basically the team and it's proven to be very effective in testing.
    import (open)

    Quagsire @ Leftovers
    Ability: Unaware
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Curse
    - Waterfall
    - Earthquake
    - Recover

    Vibrava @ Eviolite
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Rock Slide
    - Roost
    - Defog
    - U-turn

    Bronzor @ Eviolite
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic
    - Rest
    - Psywave

    Gourgeist-Super @ Colbur Berry
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Synthesis
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Foul Play
    - Shadow Sneak

    Audino @ Leftovers
    Ability: Regenerator
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 SpD / 8 Spe
    Careful Nature
    - Wish
    - Protect
    - Heal Bell
    - Knock Off

    Silvally-Fairy @ Fairy Memory
    Ability: RKS System
    EVs: 252 HP / 120 Def / 136 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Multi-Attack
    - Roar
    - Rest
    - Parting Shot


    Thank you for reading this if you made it all to the end, just showcasing three different teams for three different archetypes: Stall, Offense, and very bulky Offense. If you have any suggestions for the teams feel free to hit me up and I'll consider them.
  12. LordST

    LordST formerly Lord Sample Team

    Joined:
    Apr 11, 2016
    Messages:
    312
    LST's Super Neat Squad Dump!
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Specs Zard Bulky Offense

    Importable (open)

    [​IMG]
    Charizard @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Blaze
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Fire Blast
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Dragon Pulse / Focus Blast

    Lumineon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Storm Drain
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - U-turn
    - Defog
    - Toxic

    Tauros @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Double-Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Sleep Talk / Pursuit
    - Rock Slide

    Piloswine @ Eviolite
    Ability: Thick Fat
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Icicle Crash
    - Stealth Rock
    - Ice Shard

    Granbull @ Leftovers
    Ability: Intimidate
    EVs: 208 HP / 252 Def / 48 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Play Rough
    - Earthquake
    - Heal Bell
    - Toxic

    Simisage @ Fightinium Z
    Ability: Overgrow
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nasty Plot
    - Leaf Storm
    - Focus Blast
    - Hidden Power [Rock]


    I have yet to explore Charizard as much as I would like to, but from what I have this mon is a crazy threat. Specs Charizard can destroy most balance builds muscling its way past common fire checks like AV Magmortar, Poliwrath, Thick Fat Hariyama, etc. HP grass hits water types like Lanturn and Gastrodon while Dragon Pulse gives you a coverage vs the likes of Drampa and Guzzlord. Focus Blast can also be used to hit rock types like Regirock harder but I hate missing so I opted for Dpulse. Lumineon was a natural partner as it can sponge water attacks aimed at Zard, defog rocks away and pressure a lot of common rockers like Piloswine, Regirock, Golem, etc. Charizard also helps patch up Lumineon's biggest issue in this gen in that it hard loses to Ferroseed. Piloswine was the chosen rocker to be an electric check and secondary fire check. Strong priority Ice Shard also helps with the Lilligant match up. 60 speed creeps 8 speed Torterra. I wanted a true fighting check as well as a better answer to Scyther so Granbull was the obvious choice. 48 speed creeps uninvested base 50s. next I needed a scarfer that could revenge all Barb specifically so Tauros was a nice fit. Sleep Talk is a neat option over the standard Pursuit as it helps vs Lilligant but I made this team when Vivillion was in the meta so its not quite as helpful as it was before. Next I wanted something that could pressure the likes of Lanturn and other bulky waters to help aid Charizards weakness to them. I initially chose Lilligant, but Simisage with NP and Fightinium Z can beat a lot of the mons that would normally give Lilligant trouble and the speed tier is nice for revenging things which puts less strain on Tauros to do so. HP rock hits incoming Scythers as well as Fire types like opposing Charizard.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Rockium Z Lycanroc Hyper Offense

    Importable (open)

    Lycanroc @ Rockium Z
    Ability: Sand Rush
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stone Edge
    - Swords Dance
    - Accelerock
    - Brick Break

    Scyther @ Choice Band
    Ability: Technician
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Bug Bite
    - Aerial Ace
    - Knock Off

    Lurantis @ Leftovers
    Ability: Contrary
    EVs: 204 HP / 252 SpD / 52 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Defog
    - Synthesis

    Golurk @ Colbur Berry
    Ability: Iron Fist
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Shadow Punch
    - Stealth Rock
    - Stone Edge

    Primeape @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - U-turn
    - Earthquake

    Floatzel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Hasty Nature
    - Aqua Jet
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam


    Rockium Z SD Lycanroc is a really good cleaner vs offense and it can also punch big holes in balance teams lacking some of the few hard counters it has. Its fantastic speed tier, high base 115 attack, and uni allow for lots of sweeps vs weakened teams. Brick Break is my favorite coverage option hitting Probopass very hard. Lycanroc and Banded Scyther share a lot of checks so when paired together they can overwhelm the likes of Regirock, Granbull, etc. Scyther also helps take Mach Punches and threaten Fighting types that Lycanroc struggles with. Lurantis is also a great new mon from Alola that I feel is underutilized. It Defogs on and beats many common rockers like Torterra, Golem, Ferroseed, Golurk, and so on. It has respectable bulk that lets it check most water types in the tier with relative ease. It avoids being too passive and a momentum thanks to Contrary Leaf Storm. All of these elements make for a pretty solid hazard removal option that I welcome with open arms. 52 Speed creeps base 50s. I chose Golurk as my rocker because it fills many rolls my team needed. Fighting check, normal check, rock setter, volt immunity, and Scyther check, all while keeping up offensive pressure. Vital Spirit Scarf Primeape is my obligatory Lilligant check and only Sucker Punch resist on the team. I added Floatzel as my last to pressure Fire types that seemed to be a pretty big threat to the team.

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    SubPunch Poliwrath + Tspikes Balance

    Importable (open)

    Poliwrath @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 112 HP / 252 Atk / 144 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Waterfall
    - Encore

    Weezing @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Levitate
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 128 HP / 244 Def / 136 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Pain Split

    Musharna @ Colbur Berry
    Ability: Synchronize
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk / 0 Spe
    - Psyshock
    - Calm Mind
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Moonlight

    Piloswine @ Eviolite
    Ability: Thick Fat
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 196 HP / 252 Atk / 60 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock
    - Icicle Spear
    - Ice Shard

    Scyther @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Technician
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Aerial Ace
    - Bug Bite
    - Knock Off

    Lurantis @ Leftovers
    Ability: Contrary
    EVs: 204 HP / 252 SpD / 52 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Defog
    - Synthesis


    Sub Punch Poli is a near perfect partner for Tspikes. Many of Poliwraths best GSIs like Granbull, Tangela, Gourgeist, and Sableye are all severely crippled by Toxic Spikes. When paired with the combination of Sub + Encore the results can be devastating. Musharna is the added as the main fighting check. The three form a pretty solid defensive core and between them can make up for the lack of a normal resist. Piloswine gives some much needed offensive presence and just does normal Piloswine things Scarf Scyther revenges all the setup sweepers that can give the team trouble, mostly Lilligant. Lurantis Defogs for Scyther and forms a nice core with it as it can threaten the Rock and ground, ground, and water type rock setters that tend to threaten Scyther.
    eht, wishes, 2xTheTap and 28 others like this.
  13. The Jungle Fox

    The Jungle Fox

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2015
    Messages:
    59
    Workshop Team!

    Me and some folks "decided" (I confess it was randpoke) to build around Primeape. Not gonna do in-depth explanations here but shoutouts to iRebel, Andather, Solar Flare, Twix, Moderation is Key and other people I don't remember since you didn't give me your accounts :p. Oh well, to the team!

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG] or [​IMG][​IMG]
    Importable (open)
    Primeape @ Fightinium Z
    Ability: Defiant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Encore
    - Close Combat
    - Gunk Shot
    - U-turn

    Articuno @ Life Orb
    Ability: Pressure
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Hurricane
    - Ice Beam

    Skuntank @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 12 HP / 248 Atk / 100 SpD / 148 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Taunt
    - Pursuit
    - Poison Jab
    - Sucker Punch

    Swanna @ Life Orb
    Ability: Hydration
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Roost
    - Scald
    - Defog
    - Hurricane

    Golurk @ Colbur Berry
    Ability: No Guard
    EVs: 40 HP / 252 Atk / 216 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Dynamic Punch
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Punch

    OR

    Golem @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 32 HP / 252 Atk / 224 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Sucker Punch

    Mr. Mime @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Filter
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Psychic
    - Focus Blast
    - Healing Wish
    Description (open)
    This team is a heavily offensive one. It's based around Encore Fightinium Z Primeape since we felt choice-locked sets were too common. Fightinium also easily bluffs Scarf aswell, and Encore provides great utility.

    Articuno was added since its not only a great balance breaker, but it takes advantage of Primeape's ability to break down Steel-types. Ice Beam was chosen over Substitute or Hidden Power Fighting because its an accurate, spammable and strong STAB that lures in bulky waters like Lanturn for Swanna, since most people assume Ice Beam Articuno isn't running Freeze-Dry.

    As our team was looking pretty weak to Psychic-types, aswell as Ghost-types who could easily exploit Primeape's inability to hit them, we decided Physical Skuntank was the go-to choice. It Pursuit traps Bronzor for Cuno aswell, letting it break easier. Skunk also provides valuable priority in Sucker Punch, and its probably the most important member in the Sun MU. Taunt helps with Musharna and stallbreaking in general. The speed is enough to outspeed positive-natured Abomasnow (aswell as neutral-natured base 70s), with enough HP to hit a Black Sludge number, max Attack and the rest dumped into SpDef to better check Grass-types.

    We were really fighting weak and lacked a hazard remover, but also we wanted to keep the team's offensive pressure, so Swanna was chosen. It makes a damn good offensive core with Articuno since people don't prepare that much for Flying-types, and even less for Special ones. It is pretty frail, but its typing and reliable recovery helps it a lot through the match.

    Next, we added Golurk mainly for its role compression, in checking Electric-, Normal- and soft checking Fighting-types while providing Stealth Rocks. To a lesser extent, it can also spinblock its rocks since its able to survive Hitmonchan's Ice Punch and do a lot back with Earthquake. Colbur Berry let it take the likes of Zangoose more confortably, also easing the matchup versus Sand.

    Golem, on the other hand, also gives us priority in Sucker Punch and checks threatening Fire- and Flying-types in exchange of Golurk's ability to check Fighting-types. EdgeQuake coverage is way more spammable through the match aswell, but I guess this comes up to prefference. The speed is enough to outspeed Aggron, which can be quite a threat if Golem is chosen.

    To round out the team, we added Mr. Mime as our terciary check to Fighting types, aswell as Healing Wish support and revenge killer. Its fairy typing also helps a lot versus Dark-types and Dragons such as DD Altaria and OTR Alolan-Exeggutor.

    The team doesn't have a lot of weakness, but it gets troubled by Kabutops rain, Charizard sun and Sand if you decide to run Golurk. Things that exploit the team's weakness, such as Scarf Vanilluxe (as I have no Ice resists), can do a number aswell. It is really fun although it requires some knowledge to play.
  14. Mango Smoothie

    Mango Smoothie

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2013
    Messages:
    298
    2 part post first part is team dump 2nd part is me complaining about z moves
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Abomasnow Bulky Offense
    Description (open)

    This is a bulky offensive team built around Abomasnow, which has only gotten better as the meta has shifted towards more balance & steel/fire-types have somewhat dropped off in popularity (or at least I'm fighting more balance teams without fire types). Lanturn + Granbull form a defensive core to cover most all of Abomasnow's weaknesses, and act as status spreaders to disrupt opposing mons that could be troublesome for abomasnow. Golurk was added as a rocker and secondary fighting/normal check. Passimian was originally band but I opted for it over scarf primeape because of some extra bulk (but you could go for Primeape if you wanted I just haven't tried it out). Skuntank was the last addition added as a defogger and also with some juicy priority.

    The team has some trouble with Weezing and also stuff like RP Aggron/Golurk if certain members are weakened, but otherwise manages to hold its own. Ferrothorn can be annoying and since Musharna is gone you could opt with Fire Blast over one of PJab or Crunch on Skunk as well.
    Some Replays:
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-618590343 <- Def drop on Musharna helped in the end but otherwise a pretty clean game
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-619050963 <- Loss, but still a solid showing
    http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-619053968 <- Shows the team's matchup vs opposing balance

    Edit: why did I think Musharna was banned, you could drop PJab but it helps vs fighting-types switching in.



    Me Complaining about Z Moves
    Show Hide
    Onto the next part of the post. I don't mean to complain right after a wave of bans but can we talk about offensive Z moves? These things turn trying to deal with a boosting sweeper with anything outside of a hard counter/revenge killer into a crapshoot because of just the sheer power (without drawbacks) that offensive Z moves have and also the unpredictability of what Z move that mon might be running.

    The way Z Moves increase the power of a move makes trying to deal with them using anything other than a surefire counter (or RK-er but thats always there) awkward because what can take a (possibly boosted) 160BP move anyways (the list goes down even further if you try to switch in). Taking something like Lycanroc, basically anything thats slower gets decimated by a +2 Continental Crush, which gets ~70-80% on defensive tangela. Thats invested 115 Defense with eviolite, and with SR + 10-20% chip you KO. So if you were considering using something like Granbull, tough luck because unless you're 100% healthy and manage to clear rocks you die to the +1 attack. I'm only focusing on lycanroc because its what I've seen around most, but the argument can be made for any reasonably fast offensive mon, Z moves invalidate anything between a hard counter or a fast revenge killer because of the sheer power behind those moves.

    +2 252 Atk Lycanroc Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 235-277 (70.3 - 82.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 252 Atk Lycanroc Continental Crush (180 BP) vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Granbull: 349-412 (91.1 - 107.5%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO

    Now you can say "Well in that case Granbull just isn't a good way to deal with Lycanroc, account for that in teambuilding," consider that any number of offensive threats on an opposing team could run any number of Z moves to bypass their would-be checks/counters, which added to the high BP of those moves (offensive resists/generally bulky mons won't help) adds a lot of unpredictability to the mix. And unlike lure/coverage moves, this unpredictability is effectively a drawback free V-Create.

    Usually running lure/coverage moves detract from what that mon can do (ex: Fire Blast on Skuntank for Ferroseed means its giving up one of pursuit, STAB, or Defog, Play Rough on BU Komala for Sableye has to give up the ability to break past Quagsire or priority, etc etc), whereas sweepers that run Z Moves tend not to have to give up much other than an item (which for boosting sweepers isn't all that bad considering they usually only have 1-2 mons that need breaking to rip through an opposing team). Yeah you can't run Lum on your boosting sweeper, but so what; you get a one-time nuke so that thing that would've statused you in the first place won't be able to anyways since it just ate a 160BP attack to the face. Its still running the same moves it otherwise would've with LO, maybe its a bit more reliant on getting that initial boost, but anything other than LO does the same thing. Lets not forget that telling Z-Move users apart is much harder than figuring out band VS scarf, because Z moves the most fine-tuned way to pick what counters a set. Ninjask could be doing something clever with Z-Dig, or it could opt for Z-Aerial Ace because it just wants general power. Or on the flip side, a mon I think is running the Z move could in fact be running the Lum Berry all along or one of the Plates/Incenses while another mon on the team is the Z-Move user (or there might not even be one).

    tl;dr: Z Moves severely lower the necessary threshold for a sweeper to go through teams, and adds an unreasonable amount of unpredictability that makes building defensive teams that much harder. I'm not entirely sure what to suggest to do since I'm guessing the council can't just ban ALL offensive z-moves (I imagine the logistics of that would just be really messy a la ORAS DynamicPunch), but I wanted to put the thoughts down somewhere because I think a lot of otherwise manageable things can get blown out of proportion with access to an (even if its just one-time) extremely high-powered move to bust through a check/counter.


    edit: @ comments below, I put the z-move stuff in hide tag because you're right there's not much a post here would accomplish. Also I wasn't proposing a ban (read the 2nd sentence of the tl;dr) I was just putting my thoughts down.
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
    Gorechomp and LordST like this.
  15. Demoness

    Demoness

    Joined:
    Dec 18, 2009
    Messages:
    1,278
    So you want there to be a ban that would be both a massive chore to try and get implemented and would cause a fairly big amount of backlash (don't try and kid yourself there wouldn't be), and is much more complicated of a task then what you just referenced, when you could do the easier way and ban said Pokemon that are too strong through using Z-moves? Unless you're trying to imply that all offensive pokemon are broken with z-moves, which frankly, i disagree with entirely.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  16. Many

    Many

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2014
    Messages:
    926
    Mango actually made a lot of good points, but this idea applies to SM tiers in general more than PU (arguably PU is quite balanced already). I would be open to the possibility of a complex ban on speed-boosting moves + Z-moves in all tiers. However, it would undoubtedly be difficult and controversial, and this is not the right thread to discuss that.

    I don't think it makes any sense for PU to do so specifically. I doubt we would even be allowed to implement such a policy, and it would cause a ton of backlash which we don't need right now.
    Last edited: Aug 18, 2017
  17. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2014
    Messages:
    1,094
    I would like to propose we also drop the subject of Z-moves. SM is all about z-moves, it's completely out of PU's control and it's the generation we have adapted, just like mega-evolutions last gen. It's something we, as a tier, will need to adapt to, but since PU is still in its early beta phase, we have only just gone through our first round of quick bans and we barely know the tier we have right now, we should keep an open mind. I'm sure that once the tier settles and we all become familiar with what sets are common, z-moves will become more predictable and people will adapt, just like in the other tiers that we play at the moment.

    Also to reiterate, banning z-moves will most likely never happen just because of smogon tiering philosophy and complex bans (this is also not the place to discuss it), so I would highly recommend steering away from this topic of conversation!

    To make this post not all doom and gloom, there is a pokemon that got extremely better with the tier changes and removal of viv + gallade...

    [​IMG]
    Gurdurr @ Eviolite
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 240 HP / 252 Atk / 16 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Bulk Up

    It's one of the best pokemon in the tier right now imo, that has an amazing match up vs most teams. Spreading knock offs and threatening bulk up sweeps, it's got a lot going for it at the moment. Pair it with a pursuit trapper for musharna and it pressures teams phenomenally, especially bulkier teams that rely on audino for wish pass (yet doesn't care about status in the slightest). I highly suggest you try this pokemon out!
  18. Robert Alfons

    Robert Alfons The birds don't sing, they screech in pain
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 6, 2013
    Messages:
    1,466
    I haven't seen a lot of spikestack hyperoffense around but I'd say it's a very viable playstyle at the moment (and an easy way to score wins on ladder hinthint) so here's a team I used yesterday to some success:

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    importable (open)

    Crustle @ Focus Sash
    Ability: Weak Armor
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Spikes
    - Rock Blast
    - Knock Off

    Sableye @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe
    Impish Nature
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Knock Off
    - Recover

    Primeape @ Choice Band
    Ability: Defiant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - Gunk Shot / Ice Punch
    - U-turn

    Kangaskhan @ Silk Scarf
    Ability: Scrappy
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Fake Out
    - Double-Edge
    - Earthquake
    - Sucker Punch

    Samurott @ Life Orb
    Ability: Torrent
    EVs: 64 Atk / 192 SpA / 252 Spe
    Rash Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Megahorn / Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]
    - Aqua Jet

    Lilligant @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Quiver Dance
    - Sleep Powder
    - Giga Drain
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    description (open)
    The premise of this team is very simple: get hazards up and start breaking your opponent's team with 4 of the best offensive Pokemon in PU. Crustle is by far the best hazard lead for spikestack HO - although you don't have to lead with it if you expect your opponent to counterlead with a Taunt user or something like Aqua Jet Samurott -, since it's one of the few Pokemon to get both SR and Spikes. Since Custap Berry is illegal, Sturdy Custap isn't an option. However, Sash + Weak Armor is a great alternative, since any physical hit will boost your Speed to the point that you should be able to get up a Spike before you go down. Rock Blast > Stone Edge because Blast breaks through Leavanny's Sash. Sableye is among the best spinblockers in the tier and can 1v1 a lot of teams lategame after you broke through its special attackers + it burns shit like Barbaracle, which can otherwise tear through this team if given the opportunity to set up. Play carefully with it though so as not to lose too much momentum. CB Primeape is very difficult to switch into, punishes Dark-types that try to come in for free on Sableye, and pretty much guarantees a kill if it comes in on Defog. Kangaskhan acts as a revenge killer with dual priority (hence no Scarfer on the team, although if you want to you can put Scarf > Band on Primeape) and has great offensive synergy with Primeape since that thing beats Rock- and Steel-types. Mixed Samurott is cool as hell as long as you hit your Hydro Pumps since its coverage makes it very difficult to come in on. Megahorn is better imo since it 2HKOs Guzzlord and AV Lanturn (the latter after rocks) and still hits most Ice Beam targets hard enough. Attack EVs allow for it to OHKO Charizard with Aqua Jet after rocks. Lilligant is just a fantastic sweeper/cleaner and has good synergy with the rest of the team.

    The team is very customizable, since I don't have a Z-move user you could use that Fightinium Primeape set mentioned a few posts above this one, or you could run Normalium Lilligant, although I prefer LO since you're mostly clicking Giga Drain and HP Fire nails Ferroseed, which otherwise can be bothersome for the team. I suppose HP Fire on Samurott could be an option if you are going with Normalium Lilligant since you can lure Ferroseed, then go to town with Lilli. I already mentioned Scarf > Band on Primeape, it improves your otherwise poor matchup vs Webs so that's cool. If you find Sableye too passive as a spinblocker, you could run something like Nasty Plot Misdreavus - still bulky enough to be able to switch into common spinners like Hitmonchan but faster and more offensively inclined and still capable of breaking bulky cores with Nasty Plot + Taunt (or Wisp). See whatever works for you.


    Side note: please don't discuss a ban on Z-moves. It is a controversial thing to suggest such a thing to say the least, but if we were to seriously consider it - and I doubt we ever will -, it would have to be much further down the line, the meta is too young to tell if Z-moves are a structural problem that hinder the development of a healthy PU tier. It is true that they push a few sweepers from great to overpowering, but we have no obligation to keep certain Pokemon around solely because removing one element would keep them from being broken. A complex ban on Z-moves + speed boosting moves or whatever sounds even more far-fetched, complex bans are to be avoided whenever possible since Smogon policy favors simplicity and complex bans often don't even really fix the problem (see also: millions of complex Baton Pass clauses, Aldaron's proposal imoimoimo).
  19. Skankovich

    Skankovich

    Joined:
    May 31, 2014
    Messages:
    390
    [​IMG]
    Muk @ Leftovers
    Ability: Poison Touch
    EVs: 216 HP / 208 Atk / 84 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch
    - Poison Jab
    - Disable

    Spread creeps Weezing and reaches 405 hp, rest in attack.

    Used to run this set back in ORAS but it really shines against some of the new threats that have dropped. A lot of the switchins people use for Muk are either fighting weak (Regi, Pilo, Aggron, Persian-A, Probo, Ferro), rely on one move to deal actual damage to it (Musharna, Weezing, Quagsire) or are pressured heavily by potential poison procs (Sableye, Quag, Musharna, Regi, Pilo, Silv-ghost, Oricorio-S) and basically this set preys on all of those weaknesses. It shines against slightly more passive teams that struggle to break the sub but most offensive teams still likely have one mon that Muk can get a sub up against and start to harass a team, since again many offensive mons will rely on a single move to break Muk's sub.

    I thought I had more replays to demonstrate it in action but I only have this singular mediocre one (https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7pubeta-619585167), so you'll just have to trust me that it's a fun and good set rn!
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2017
    2xTheTap, RawMelon, LordST and 4 others like this.
  20. Anty

    Anty the dirt in your fries
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    PU Co-Leader

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
    2,909
    No more discussions regarding Z-moves please. This isn't the place to discuss it, we are still in beta and the tier is far from fully developed. Anymore posts will be deleted/infracted.
  21. Magnemite

    Magnemite
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Super Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    really short post for now as I've only played a few games, but I've found that standard defensive mawile has been very useful as an sr user and check to a bunch of mons, including offensive scyther, a bunch of normal types, some fighting types, etc. lack of drypass hurts it in some ways, but it still gets taunt, knock off, foul play, stab play rough which hits decently hard even with no investment, and a bunch of other random options, so it's not really setup fodder for very much despite being a defensive mon. the main issue with it is that it's not particularly great at checking things, but it usually can do so well enough to do its job. it's not amazing or anything but it has definitely surprised me with how useful it has been so far.
  22. Banan123

    Banan123

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2014
    Messages:
    24
    So how is Floatzel doing? It's my favorite pokemon
    TJ likes this.
  23. TJ

    TJ :thinking:
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2016
    Messages:
    521
    [​IMG]
    Float is ok I guess. Its main niche is its speed tier I'd say. It faces some competition from Samurott, Kabutops, Poliwrath, Carracosta and Barbaracle in terms of physical waters. I dont think special float is worth using at all with things like Lanturn being common and the fact we have Ludicolo in the tier.
  24. PenguinAssault

    PenguinAssault

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    I wanted to write about 2 Pokémon that I don't think are underrated, but aren't used that much and why the meta is actually pretty great for them.

    [​IMG]

    Togedemaru stands out in the PU metagame with a very nice speed tier at 96, outspeeding threats like Silvally, Oricorio, and Jynx while remaining as a great check to things like Scyther which is commonly used. Along with it's typing, it really only has to watch out for ground, fighting and fire types, and can easily support it's team. I haven't actually seen this thing too much on ladder, but when used with some hazards up basically no physical attacker wants to come in, especially when paired up with the Rocky Helmet. In my opinion, the reason Togedemaru is so great in this meta is due to the chip damage it provides while having a helpful support movepool on top of momentum, which allows this pikaclone to shut down set-up sweepers, pivot into mons like Zangoose which are extremely good with voltturn support, and of course get those nasty 30% flinches off, all while making the opponent take around a fourth of it's health every time it makes contact which can help a ton on a bulky offense team where you force them to take hazard damage anyway by pivoting.

    SET (open)

    Togedemaru @ Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Zing Zap
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Encore

    Togedemaru @ Rocky Helmet
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    EVs: 248 HP / 144 Def / 108 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Zing Zap
    - U-turn
    - Toxic
    - Encore

    The first set is personally my favorite, as you can still outspeed all the base 95's an utilize Togedemaru's typing as it's defensive barrier, but the second set allows you to be able to tank more hits while still outspeeding threats like Adamant Kanga and Zang. Overall, I think that Togedemaru is definitely a great niche pick to be able to check some of these hard hitting fake out users/scythers and can extremely benefit your team with good chip damage combined with hazards. ​
    Thanks (open)

    Thanks Taskr for showing me this set, and the 2nd spread


    [​IMG]

    So, I've seen a bit of Mr. Mime on my many ladder games, but most of them that I have seen have usually been scarfed. A lot of people look at this thing's bulk and immediately turn away, but it's 4x resist to fighting in this kind of meta actually immensely helpful, and the fact that it still has a decent speed tier and strong SpA along with fairy stab helps it a ton. Mr. Mime is capable of running Healing Wish, Focus Blast, Z Encore, and a ton of cool coverage moves, but I honestly do think the set that shines right now in the meta is Nasty Plot Fairium Z. With this set, you can easily OHKO fighting checks like Yama and Gurdurr, while actually being able to OHKO Musharna with a +2 boost. Beyond this, Mime is usually fast enough to KO most opposing threats, and has a high SpD stat to pivot into that a lot, you just have to be weary of strong physical attackers. I do think this set shines however right now, and I strongly encourage you to give it a try if you need a fast Z move user that can double as a boosting late game cleaner.

    Set (open)

    Mr. Mime @ Fairium Z
    Ability: Filter
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Focus Blast
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Psyshock
    - Nasty Plot


    [​IMG]
    Thanks for reading :)​

    Teddeh, LordST, Aaronboyer and 4 others like this.
  25. UBERSkitty

    UBERSkitty

    Joined:
    Oct 24, 2016
    Messages:
    52
    What time is it? Random set analysis with Skitty, of course!

    [​IMG]
    Shiftry @ Life Orb
    Ability: Chlorophyll
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive / Naughty Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Sucker Punch
    - Leaf Storm
    - Rock Slide

    So, this is just a fun lure, though it's main idea is to be able to check Z Sunny Day Charizard.

    It's first three moves are your generic Shiftry moveset. Knock Off serves as its main STAB, and can cripple certain Item-dependent mons, such as Eviolite users, Sucker Punch lets it hit faster mons, and Leaf Storm lets it break through Physical walls more easily. Rock Slide is where the fun comes in. Thanks to Chlorophyll, Shiftry can outspeed Charizard, even after the +1 Speed boost from Z-Sunny Day. While normally Shiftry wouldn't be able to do much, with Leaf Storm being resisted and Knock Off not getting the boost, Rock Slide easily OHKOes (assuming you don't miss and they manage to hit a Fire Blast). It can also lure in some mons, but they are generally frail and/or wouldn't want to switch into a Knock Off. The major example for this would be Scyther, specifically the SD set, who wouldn't want to lose it's Eviolite, even of it can live a Knock Off+Sucker Punch. However, you could theoretically lure them out in fear of a Leaf Storm. Sadly, this would be ran over Defog, which is debatably one of Shiftry's main roles. You could run Rock Slide over one of the other moves, but at that point it wouldn't be worth it IMO (if it even is already). And even if you somehow did end up with a free slot, Rock Slide still gets competition from other moves, such as Swords Dance and Low Kick.

    As for the item, Life Orb is by far your best choice. Not only does it boost the power of all Shiftry's attacks, its needed to have a chance to OHKO SD Scyther, along with the 2hko on Turtonator. Darkinium Z is also an option to help with bulkier mons that won't take too much from Knock Off or Leaf Storm, such as Z Dazzling Gleam Musharna. Another choice would be Grassium Z, simply if you don't want to deal with the Special Attack drop. Lastly, Rockium Z guarantees the OHKO on SD Scyther, and probably some other stuff. But as I said before, Life Orb is definitely your best choice, as all those Z moves are just so situational. And that's on top of its already situational Rock Slide.

    I did a bunch of calculations, and ended up with some pretty strange spreads, but came to the conclusion that simply running max Attack and max Speed, with the remaining 4 in Special Attack, was still the best option. On top of the max Attack giving a maximum chance to OHKO SD Scyther, it also lets Shiftry have offensive pressure, even when it isn't screwing over Charizards. You could run enough speed for Shirftry to reach 247, allowing it to creep +1 Charizard with the Chlorophyll boost, and put the rest in its Special Attack. However, it likely won't be in Sun most of the time, and offensive mons like Shiftry prefer to have as much Speed as possible. Shiftry can run either Naive or Naughty for its nature. Naive would be for the same reason as the Speed EVs, it likes Speed. While running Naughty may be against what I just said, how it prefers Speed over Power, Naughty has some noticeable benefits. Sucker Punch allows it to not be forced to always depend on speed, on top of being boosted in its damage through Naughty's Attack boost. Naughty also majorly raises chance for Rock Slide OHKO SD Scyther to over a 50% chance with Life Orb.

    Calculations (open)
    Charizard:
    252 Atk Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 336-396 (113.1 - 133.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252+ Atk Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 368-436 (123.9 - 146.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 437-515 (147.1 - 173.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Eviolite Scyther:
    252+ Atk Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 244-288 (71.1 - 83.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 291-343 (84.8 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 317-374 (92.4 - 109%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO
    252 Atk Shiftry Continental Crush (140 BP) vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Scyther: 408-484 (118.9 - 141.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Scarf/Band Scyther:
    252 Atk Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Scyther: 328-388 (116.7 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Other Potential Lures (pretty situational, and not very common mons):
    252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Turtonator: 138-164 (52.8 - 62.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    252 Atk Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Ninjask: 508-600 (193.1 - 228.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Life Orb Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Articuno: 354-421 (110.2 - 131.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    252 Atk Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Oricorio-Fire: 364-432 (125 - 148.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO
    -1 252+ Atk Shiftry Rock Slide vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Masquerain: 292-348 (103.5 - 123.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    So, this lure, is it worth it? Probably not! It's very situational, and Shiftry kinda needs its four usual moves to be used to its full potential. But hey, if you already have hazard removal on your team and wanna use Shiftry, why not give Rock Slide a chance? Why not? (besides all the reasons I listed)
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
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