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Metagame np: SM PU Stage 0 (Beta): Medieval [Vanilluxe and Tauros Banned]

Discussion in 'PU' started by galbia, Aug 6, 2017.

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  1. Twix

    Twix is this a dog or a bear
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    Two more fun sets that I've been playing with coming out:

    [​IMG]
    Basculin @ Life Orb / Waterium Z
    Ability: Adaptability
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Ice Beam / Zen Headbutt / Head Smash
    - Aqua Jet
    - Superpower

    Really in love with Basculin currently because of how strong it is in the metagame through Adaptability. It does face some direct competition from Samurott, which has access to Swords Dance and Megahorn, as well as more bulk. However, it finds a niche in its STAB move output, coverage in Superpower (ik Samu gets it too but it doesn't run it as common as Megahorn), and impressive Base 98 Speed, which is much better than Samurott. The item choice is really up to you, Life Orb hits like a truck with every move but Waterium Z creates one extremely powerful move which take OHKO or help 2HKO a majority of the metagame. The last moveslot is open for interpretation as well, and really depends on the team around it. Ice Beam helps out a lot against switchins such as Torterra and Jumpluff, while Zen Headbutt hits Poison-types such as Weezing and Fighting-types such as Gurdurr harder. Head Smash is just an extremely powerful move which punishes switchins, especially bulkier Flying-types such as Togetic, Swanna, and Vullaby and Pokemon that resist its Water-type Attacks. Mold Breaker is also an option for the set, although it loses a lot of power, as a way to take on Sturdy leads such as Crustle which are rising in usage.

    [​IMG]
    Electivire @ Fightinium Z / Electrium Z / Groundium Z / Icium Z
    Ability: Motor Drive
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Wild Charge
    - Focus Punch / Superpower / Fire Punch / Ice Punch
    - Earthquake
    - Volt Switch

    Man Electivire is a nuke haha. Most people I've seen have used it as a Scarfer or a standard Life Orb set, but I really haven't seen anyone use Z move on it. Z Fighting allows it to take on several of its answers, such as Miltank, Regirock, Piloswine, and Golem. Groundium Z allows it to take on common checks such as Camerupt, Lanturn, and Stunfisk. Electrium is just a common nuke STAB which hits plenty of Pokemon hard, even if they resist it. Finally Ice Punch allows it to get access to a physical BoltBeam, and the ability to hit Ground-types such as Vibrava and Torterra, as well as Gourgeist.
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2017
  2. Foofootoo

    Foofootoo

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2014
    Messages:
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    Hello! I would like to offer another effective TR abuser option to the beautifully compiled TR post.
    [​IMG]
    Hariyama @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 Atk / 108 Def / 148 SpD
    Brave Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Knock Off
    - Bullet Punch
    - Heavy Slam / Ice Punch / Stone Edge

    Hariyama faces stiff competition from the ferocious Crabominable as your fighting type TR sweeper, but I think it's definitely worth a look mainly due to it having fewer weaknesses, superior bulk and a resistance to SR, as well as only taking 6% burn damage a turn as opposed to 10% LO damage.
    (EVs taken from standard XY NU CB set with speed pumped into SpD)

    In terms of damage output, a burned Hariyama's CC is slightly more powerful than Crabominable's CC, but it lacks the incredibly powerful STAB ice coverage that Crabominable boasts. However, anything it does not hit with CC usually does not appreciate a Heavy Slam or a Knock Off.

    I like running Heavy Slam to hit fairies and have a non-negligible damage output on Sableye. Ice Punch is an option to hit Vileplumes and Stone Edge is there for Scyther/Pelipper. Bullet Punch is nice for picking off frailer opponents or sash users, but can be replaced for more coverage.

    Calcs (open)
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Charizard: 186-219 (62.6 - 73.7%) guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Togetic: 218-258 (69.4 - 82.1%) 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Heavy Slam (120 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Clefairy: 300-354 (87.2 - 102.9%) 18.8% chance to OHKO
    252+ Atk Guts Hariyama Close Combat vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 133-157 (39.8 - 47%) 36.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Basically, it's pretty strong, can switch in a few times and can even take some hits. I like that it stays around longer than Crabominable and isn't scared of status. Plus it beats most mons with steel moves that people try to anti-lead my Carbink with (Damn those Iron Head fishing Aggron/Pawniard/A-Dugtrio users!).

    It can be stalled out by the bulkier mons with Recovery, namely Sableye, Quagsire, Gastrodon and Gourgeist, and it can struggle to take down some of the poison types too. But most of these mons are more passive and allow you to switch into a different threat to deal with them/set up TR again.

    I hope Hari gets the respect it deserves on TR teams [:
  3. PenguinAssault

    PenguinAssault

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    Hello everyone!
    I wanted to post a workshop team that was done yesterday, along with a few versions of it from other people. The workshop focused around Coil Fightinium Z Eelektross which I honestly thought was going to be awful, but it puts in quite a bit of work against the normal switch-ins to AV Eelektross, so it's a pretty nice luring mon. Let's get down to the team: (P.S. Thank you for everyone that helped!)

    WORKSHOP TEAM

    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Explanation (open)

    Okay, so we wanted to start off building around Eelektross. It's kind of a cool pokemon in that it doesn't really have a weakness, and it's coverage is actually fantastic, on top of sporting base 115 Attack and 105 SpA, so we decided to go with a Coil Z move set, specifically to KO the usual checks that come in to counter Eelektross such as AV Lanturn/Volt Absorb mons and it helps to weaken a lot of things that would normally like to switch into a volt absorb. For this, we gave it Coil/Knock Off/Wild Charge/Superpower, and after some testing I can definitely say that the "lure" aspect of it works pretty nicely. Secondly, we decided to go with Rotom-F. While it might seem odd to add 2 electrics to a team first, the group decided that Rotom-F filled the void that our Coil Eel left behind, being a fast cleaner with access to ice moves to beat down on grass/ground that we couldn't hit as hard with Eelektross. Next, we needed a rocker that was able to benefit from our TWO levitate mons, and who appreciated the support our rocker brought, along with a normal resist, so we decided to go with Probopass, adding on toxic to help against stall mons. We still had nothing against Fire/Steel (other than Eel z)/Dark Mons so we decided to bring in a Poliwrath and make it special for the priority. I have been personally testing with this, and I almost find the Physical set to be more beneficial to the team. Next, we wanted a fighting check (and a really good one) as we basically had nothing for opposing Yama/Gurdurr/Ape, so we decided to go with standard defensive Gourgeist-Super after contemplating if we wanted a sub set or not. Finally, the group went with Togetic as our hazard removal for a secondary fighting check, and an answer to more Dark/Grass types. Overall the team actually ended up semi-decent, and I do think that it has potential, but from what I have noticed so far, the team is EXTREMELY weak to mons such as Electrivire/Alolan Raichu and any Electric mon that has STAB Elec + Coverage. Due to the nature of our Eel being so slow, and the team in general lacking speed control, many mons can overrun the team, such as Guts Yama, and wallbreakers like Scyther can give the team some troubles if we aren't careful about our Probopass pivots. Overall though, the team is nice, and I encourage you to try it and make any suggestions if you like it.


    Importable (open)

    Eelektross @ Fightinium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Coil
    - Wild Charge
    - Knock Off
    - Superpower
    Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Blizzard
    - Trick
    Probopass @ Leftovers
    Ability: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 172 HP / 252 SpD / 84 Spe
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Power Gem
    - Volt Switch
    - Stealth Rock
    - Toxic
    Gourgeist-Super @ Colbur Berry
    Ability: Frisk
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Impish Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Foul Play
    - Leech Seed
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Synthesis
    Poliwrath @ Leftovers
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 212 HP / 252 SpA / 44 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Focus Blast
    - Ice Beam
    - Vacuum Wave
    Togetic @ Eviolite
    Ability: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 SpD
    Calm Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Defog
    - Heal Bell
    - Dazzling Gleam
    - Roost


    Finally, HJAD made a version of the team that I think works very nicely, and pretty similar to how the normal workshop team does as well. Try both of them out :)
    HJAD's VERSION
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
    Importable (open)

    Eelektross @ Fightinium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Coil
    - Wild Charge
    - Knock Off
    - Superpower
    Rotom-Frost @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Thunderbolt
    - Volt Switch
    - Blizzard
    - Will-O-Wisp
    Guzzlord @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Beast Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 224 SpD / 32 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast
    - Sludge Bomb
    Sableye @ Leftovers
    Ability: Prankster
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Foul Play
    - Taunt
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Recover
    Lurantis @ Leftovers
    Ability: Contrary
    EVs: 252 HP / 236 Def / 20 Spe
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Leaf Storm
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Synthesis
    - Defog
    Golem @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 16 Atk / 224 SpD / 16 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Earthquake
    - Sucker Punch
    - Rock Blast


    Thanks again, I look forward to doing more workshops in the future :)

    Last edited: Aug 23, 2017
  4. Twix

    Twix is this a dog or a bear
    is a Contributor to Smogon

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    The team looks cool but I don't really see how Gastrodon and Quagsire could be seen as answers to standard Eelektross since it has access to Giga Drain. In fact, I feel like this set actually fairs worse against Quagsire since it doesn't mind Eelektross setting up and can scald burn it. From your explanation I'm not really seeing what merit it has over the special variant, or faster Pokémon such as Electivire. Additionally, Drain Punch would make a lot more sense on a coil set, even with the added Z power. I'm just a little confused on the real upside to using this Coil set since it doesn't really help the matchups you mentioned in the explanation.
    PenguinAssault likes this.
  5. Anty

    Anty dawn breaks
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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  6. SergioRules

    SergioRules

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2015
    Messages:
    149
    Once again, I'll talk about my opinions on the bans and the rest of the mons that were put on the chopping block because it got me a lot of likes last time I want to see how they'll change the meta.

    BANS
    [​IMG]Hariyama:
    Sad to see this thing go. The AV set was extremely splashable and acted as a really nice Ice check that also resisted Freeze-Dry. But I must say, the Guts set is pretty busted especially since people were figuring out that Heavy Slam is a much better coverage option than Knock Off despite Knock's utility since Slam can beat would-be checks like Granbull and Togetic. Once I saw Megazard's post saying that in the SQSA thread, I knew it was over. We can't just ban Guts yama and leave Thick Fat even though the Thick Fat set was okay so I dig the ban overall. Though this ban might be a chain reaction as within a day I can already see Ice types like Vanilluxe and Jynx getting more prominent.
    [​IMG]Samurott: Definitely didn't see this one coming. The reasoning in the tiering thread kinda made me compare it to Floatzel as both of the water types can function both specially or physically, and can even run mixed sets. The thing that sets Samurott apart from Floatzel is its access to a boosting move in SD (yeah Floatzel has Bulk Up, but it's not bulky enough to set up) and better physical coverage with Megahorn. While Samurott is much slower, it's bulkier and can still fire back with strong attacks. Once it gets to +2 it's really hard to stop unless you have a dedicated check that you've managed to get through the whole game without having it weakened.
    [​IMG]Barbaracle: Shell Smash+Z Move broke. But in all seriousness, Barbaracle is a great wallbreaker and with its ability to run a choice of several coverage moves to break past its checks. I've begun to think that the combination of Z-Move on a Shell Smash user is too much, but really, what makes Barbaracle a problem is its already decent speed. Other Shell Smashers like Turtonator and Carracosta are much slower and easier to beat with a scarfer, but like in the reasoning, the only viable scarfer that outspeeds +2 Barb is Tauros (Scarf Raichu is weak). As much as I like using Gastrodon, I'm glad it's not so pressured anymore by this thing's Bloom Doom.

    NOT BANS
    [​IMG]Musharna:
    I feel like the meta has adapted really well to this thing. Originally people were screaming "broken mon" but I don't think it's that bad. Not many of my opinions have changed on this thing since I posted about the last bans. Fairium misses out on lefties and Barrier set can't tough dark types unless it chooses some other coverage move which will always be resisted by something.
    [​IMG]Lilligant: Ban this stupid thing already. I'm forced to run Scarf Scyther or Primeape on every team and sack something to sleep. Get the sleep play wrong and lose. Forces too many 50/50s imo.
    [​IMG]Tauros: Good mon, really strong, don't know if I'd say broken though. There are definitely ways of working around it.
    [​IMG]Gurdurr: I love this mon and I use it whenever I can. I don't consider it broken, but it does always put in work. Now that yama is gone, consider it the go-to bulky fighting type.
    [​IMG]Vanilluxe: This thing definitely isn't broken right now. Its Blizzards are fun and hit really hard. Like I said earlier, now that AV yama is gone, we lost one of the best Ice resists in the tier but I'm still not sure if I want this banned.
    [​IMG]Sableye: Once again, another thing that could become a much bigger problem with yama gone. Guts was a really good way to beat this and I'm just hoping this thing either goes away, or we find some other way of reliably beating it.
    [​IMG]Exeggutor-Alola: Lmao why was this thing even on the slate

    This is normally the part where I'd say what I think should be banned next, but I think I already did that for the most part. Sab and Lilli are the biggest problems right now imo.
  7. ChrystalFalchion

    ChrystalFalchion
    is a Pre-Contributor

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    Think Carracosta will be better now? With Sticky Web it can outrun everything on the ground at +2, it's stabs hit everything bar Ferroseed and Poliwrath naturally and with Rockium Z it can blow through Vileplume and Gourgeist. (I think don't have the calcs to hand). You could also run Waterium Z to one shot Gurdurr and Torterra at +2 after Rocks. There was no reason to run it with Barbaracle around but now its gone...
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  8. PenguinAssault

    PenguinAssault

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2017
    Messages:
    30
    [​IMG]

    Hey, so with Barbaracle gone and even Samurott gone, we do have sort of a little void with all of the water types either being more frail version of Samurott (Floatzel, Basculin, Etc.) or more defensively focused waters (Lanturn, Gastrodon, Quagsire), so I definitely think there is room for Costa to shine. I think something that is super nice about it is it can run 2 sets depending on what your team needs, either a defensive stealth rock setter with toxic, or a Shell Smash Sweeper that becomes dangerously threatening. On webs it can be a bit hard to fit onto a team, but I think it does well as a solo-wincon by itself, just make sure you support it with things that let it come in unscathed (such as Z memento Skuntank, Parting shot support, smart pivots, etc.). However, with all of these factors, threats such as Lilligant, Shiftry, Roselia and more grass types exist to usually threaten this thing out, so just make sure you clear those mons before this thing sets up. Also just a quick note, we don't have Vileplume in our tier anymore. However, I do think this thing should be seeing more play as it's monstrous defense and attack stats contribute to a team that either wants to plow through fragile walls, or a team that needs rock support with a bulky skeleton, so I really do hope to see Costa more, it's a cool mon.

    Here's a workshop team that was done in Alpha so you can see kind of what Carracosta fits around, you can sub the Mesprit for another rocker, and the Vileplume for a Gourgeist easily

    And Finally, here's an article written by Anty, showcasing Carracosta as a pokemon (some of the points are focused on past generations, but give it a read, it's super informative on the actual pokemon and fits super nicely)
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2017
  9. Teddeh

    Teddeh This aint a scene it's a... GOD DAMNED ARMS RACE
    is a Tiering Contributor

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    1,128
    I wanna explain some of the reasoning for some of the pokemon on the slate that people are confused about because I was the one who mainly wanted them up there, despite not voting ban on them.
    Vanilluxe - I decided to nominate vanilluxe due to its spammable blizzards, it made me compare it to typhlosion and its eruptions back in oras NU, with the amount of ice resists in the tier, not every team should run a hariyama, the next best thing was a bronzor (which is complete skuntank bait) and fire types which are vulnerable to stealth rock. The rest of the tier is 2 hit ko'd or 1hit, and with decent bulk, it forces way too many switches, effectively you're meant to trade a pokemon 1 for 1 when using vanilluxe. The reason i didn't vote ban is because the tier hasn't yet realised just how broken specs ice cream is, so not many teams are running it nor was it too problematic for me since i ran plentyful checks in my teams. But it was definitely worth looking at (despite me not even voting ban myself).

    Exeggutor-a - I nominated this pokemon for the sheer fact it doesn't have a single switch in, it can dismantle bulkier teams, it can trick room vs offense and it's really bulky and powerful. Similarly to vanilluxe, I didn't also think it was worth banning yet, but it was definitely worth looking at, despite it not being voted to ban. But I like the fact that it's on our radar because with the right support, it has the potential to be too good, i just don't think it's yet discovered its best sets yet.

    and I want to reply my thoughts about lilligant, mainly replying to SergioRules

    For lilligant, i didn't think it was broken at all. When I was using lilli, it had severe 4mss and often i got fucked over, badly, by sleep powder, relying on sleep turns and generally it not having enough power to really come through. Secondly, unlike other sweepers we've banned such as samu, barb or klinklang, it doesn't own a good z-move set, as z-hyper beam really isn't as good as its standard life orb set with a hidden power option and to use the z-move appropriately, you'd have to either drop sleep powder or hinder your set in some way. Genuinely I think that lilli is a good pokemon for sure, but no where near broken nor should it be banned when we have such a huge amount of checks for it and it has such a bad 4mss. Skuntank, weezing, magmortar, ferroseed, oriocuru birds, charizard etc etc. Not to mention defensive checks such as bronzor, munchlax etc. This is the reasoning i used when i decided I didn't think lilligant was broken or too much for PU.
  10. DEG

    DEG Let's snuggle forever!
    is a Smogon Media Contributor

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    975
    Started PU some weeks ago and it has been a fun experience, I guess I'll be sticking around.

    Good calls on the bans. Hariyama dismantled a lot of bulky teams thanks to guts and it had a great move in Heavy Slam to get past Fairy-type Pokemon, it had great offensive pressure which the metagame couldn't handle that well. Barbaracle was a scary sweeper that could easily set up shell smash and punch holes thanks to its great coverage+Z-move that went around bulky threats. Samurott had a beautiful combination of SD+Priority+Z-move which also allowed it to create offensive pressure and get past its checks thanks to Z-bug.

    On another note, I do agree waiting on Lilligant, Vanniluxe and others is a nice idea giving us time to see how they are going to fare in the metagame. I do believe that none are broken at this moment in my opinion and closest being Musharna but still not deserving a ban.

    [​IMG]: Lilligant is a candidate for next ban slate thanks to its ability to abuse Sleep Powder+Quiver Dance powering through teams. But, the main reason Lilligant isn't broken in my eyes is the gamble it offers when using Sleep Powder+Sleep Turns, it is true that the correct amount of sleep can be vital and allow a Lilligant sweep but on the other side a miss or an early wake-up can foil any plans that Lilligant's setting up. And that's only if you stay in, switching out to a Fire-type Pokemon especially Magmortar or a Steel-type Pokemon is the better play after allowing it to put a Pokemon to sleep. Furthermore, Grass typing isn't that good offensively and it lacks solid coverage to take on types that resist the Grass STAB. Lilligant is indeed one of the top Pokemon in PU at this moment and can sweep unprepared teams, but I don't think it is broken yet.

    [​IMG]: On the topic of Grass-type Pokemon, Alolan Exeggutor is a Pokemon I've been playing with a lot and I enjoy using it. It has a great typing in Grass/Dragon combined with great attacking stats and movepool which threatens a good portion of the metagame. As mentioned above, Alolan Exeggutor is a Pokemon that you cannot switch-in easily and if under Trick Room it's also hard to revenge kill easily but its typing isn't that good defensively and can be worn down with Life Orb damage+Priority. On another hand, Z-item Alolan Exeggutor lacks the overall power to be a consistent offensive Pokemon when used as a cleaner though it can work in teams built specifically for that use. Being on the radar is a great start as this Pokemon might be busted as we progress, but for now? I don't think so.

    [​IMG]: Vaniluxe is another Pokemon that is a potential candidate for a banning slate but its not a huge priority just like Alolan-Exeggutor. Ice-Spam is great and all and a lot of teams do not have the Pokemon to resist Ice-type but that doesn't mean there's no Pokemon that check it. As the metagame evolves, teams must adapt to the situation. Vani, has an Ice-typing which is horrible defensively, it can be easily worn down with Stealth Rock or with priority due to the lack of bulk. It is also a slow Pokemon so there's lot of offensive checks. The metagame hasn't yet adapted to Vaniluxe which is the main reason that it needs more time, as we progress teams might be able to correctly fit Vaniluxe's checks or adapt to it putting it in the banlist but for now, Vaniluxe is a great Pokemon that everyone should use and counter!

    [​IMG]: I think Musharna is the closest thing to the banlist from these Pokemon mentioned above, it has great bulk and typing leaving it vulnerable to only some Pokemon. I won't repeat what's mentioned above but I think that the metagame is adapting to it but that doesn't mean that it forces the usage of some sets or requires people to play more carefully while handling it.

    [​IMG]: With Hariyama gone, Gurdurr is the better bulky offensive Fighting-type Pokemon. Bulk Up+Eviolite makes Gurdurr is scary offensive threats while being able to check physically offensive Pokemon, it has access to Knock Off to deal with Psychic-, and Ghost-type Pokemon switchins. Though, Gurdurr can be worn down with special attackers especially super effective moves and Fairy-type Pokemon as Gurdurr doesn't have enough bulky to withstand them. Nonetheless, Gurdurr is a great Pokemon but not yet deserving a ban.

    I'll post some teams that I've been using later n_n
    2xTheTap, Teddeh, SANJAY and 15 others like this.
  11. drumstick

    drumstick

    Joined:
    May 3, 2017
    Messages:
    69
    Vanilluxe and Why You Should Not Sleep On It

    Hello all. I’m here today to address a Pokemon that I feel isn’t getting the love it deserves, and if you can’t tell by the title, it’s the double-scooped dairy delight itself, Vanilluxe. It sits at a nice speed tier, has decent enough bulk, and can hit pretty damn hard with Specs. Before, it relied on an Autotomize LO set, but it wasn’t the best. But come Gen 7, it received a huge boon in the form of Snow Warning, allowing it access to its highest-powered STAB option, Blizzard. Only people with balls of Steelix would risk using it before, but now it’s really spammable. While not the hardest-hitting Blizzard in the tier, it has the combination of power and reliability, only shared by Abomasnow, allowing it to spam STAB Blizzards for 5 turns. However, Vanilluxe not only has a higher Special Attack, but is faster, has less weaknesses and is slightly bulkier, allowing it to be one of the most intimidating threats in the tier.

    The Set (open)


    [​IMG]
    Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid/Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Blizzard
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power Fire/Ground/Fighting

    In my opinion, this is currently Vanilluxe’s best set. While its coverage isn’t the best, it has what it needs to be a threat. As mentioned earlier, Blizzard is its most powerful STAB option, and it deals a lot of damage to Pokemon that don’t resist Ice. Freeze-Dry is really good for hitting almost, if not every, bulky Water-type in the tier for super effective damage, such as Lanturn that would normally come in on Vanilluxe. Flash Cannon is nice for hitting opposing Ice-types, as well as covering Rock-types and Fairy-types. The best Hidden Powers for this thing in my opinion are Fire, Ground, and Fighting all of which are able to cover Steel-types, but different Steel-types. Ground handles Rock-types, Electric-types, Poison-types and the Fire-types you shouldn’t be staying in on, while Fire handles the Steel-types that are neutral/immune to Ground and Bug-types, as everything else weak to Fire is probably managed by the other three moves, and finally Fighting handles other Ice-types, Dark-types and Normal-types.


    Another Set (open)


    [​IMG]
    Vanilluxe @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 4 Atk / 252 SpAtk / 252 Spe
    Naive/Hasty Nature
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Blizzard
    - Hidden Power Fire/Ground/Fighting
    - Explosion/Flash Cannon

    While it lacks the power of the Specs set, if you need speed control, this set isn’t bad at all. This set is good for revenge killing and surprising faster but frailer switch-ins to it, as well as some set-up sweepers before they get a chance to use their respective set-up moves, with high-powered STABs and some pretty nice coverage options. Blizzard is still pretty spammable and Freeze-Dry, while still being able to pressure bulky Water-types, is also nice for Pokemon like Swanna, Floatzel, Basculin, etc., as with this set, you’re outspeeding them and not risking a flinch or confusion or a crit or a miss. The Hidden Power is again up to you, with Fire/Ground/Fighting hitting everything mentioned above. Flash Cannon can be used to hit Ice-types and Explosion can be used as a reliable nuke, dealing some pretty heavy damage to Pokemon neutral to it.


    Weaknesses Checks and Counters (open)

    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG][​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Vanilluxe is by no means this perfect Pokemon despite everything I previously mentioned. While offensively decent, defensively, mono-Ice typing is pretty bad, and its bulk, while decent, is nothing super good, so try to avoid bringing it in on attacks. It’s weak to Stealth Rock, which alongside status damage, makes it easier to pick off with priority. Speaking of status, dedicated specially fat/Thick Fat Pokemon like Munchlax or Lickylicky or Miltank can easy wall it, recover lost health and either status it with Toxic or paralyze it, making it slower. Like its bulk, its speed is nothing amazing though still decent. There are a number of threats that can outspeed it and dispense massive damage like Charizard, Tauros and Primeape, and bulkier Pokemon that can retaliate with heavy/heavier hits like AV Hitmonchan or Ferroseed, (though this is only if you choose not to run HP Fire) although a common pattern with these examples is that none of them save for maybe Hitmonchan want to switch in. Strong priority is also rather bothersome for Vanilluxe.


    Sample Team (open)


    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    Here’s a bulky offensive team that I made centered around Specs Vanilluxe. Skuntank serves to remove hazards and weaken bulkier teams and stall builds with Acid Spray. Taunt is an option over Fire Blast to put a full stop to some stall Pokemon at the cost of coverage. Magmortar is the bulky special wallbreaker, able to leave dents in bulkier teams for Vanilluxe and beat a number of hazard setters after enough damage, take non-super effective special attacks and be a counter to Lilligant. Gurdurr, the physical wallbreaker, absorbs status for Vanilluxe, although neither like being paralyzed, can remove Eviolites and Assault Vests which makes picking up kills that much easier for not just Vanilluxe, but the whole team, and stay consistently healthy with Drain Punch. It also has priority to sort of make up for the lack of a Scarfer. Weezing is the main physical sponge of the team, can spread status with both Toxic Spikes and Will-o-Wisp and neuter set-up sweepers. Torterra is there to set up hazards alongside Weezing, resist Ground-type moves, be immune to Electric-type moves, reliably tank a few non-super effective physical hits from Pokemon like Tauros or Kangaskhan and even hold its own against some defensive and offensive Pokemon. The goal here is to weaken or eliminate things that Vanilluxe hates so it can have the best possible chance of coming through. The team isn't super fast and Scyther has fun with the team if Weezing goes down, so be sure to keep it healthy. Specs Charizard is a huge threat as well.


    Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Blizzard
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power Ground

    Magmortar @ Assault Vest
    Ability: Vital Spirit
    EVs: 60 HP / 252 SpAtk / 196 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Fire Blast
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power Grass
    - Earthquake

    Skuntank @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Aftermath
    EVs: 252 SpAtk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Acid Spray
    - Dark Pulse
    - Fire Blast/Taunt
    - Defog

    Gurdurr @ Eviolite
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 252 HP / 192 Atk / 64 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Bulk Up
    - Knock Off

    Torterra @ Leftovers
    Ability: Overgrow
    EVs: 252 HP / 60 Atk / 196 Def
    Adamant Nature
    - Wood Hammer
    - Synthesis
    - Earthquake
    - Stealth Rock

    Weezing @ Icium Z
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Sludge Bomb
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Haze
    - Toxic Spikes


    To say the least, I’d advise giving Vanilluxe a try. It isn’t very prepped for, and it certainly puts in a lot of work when played well. And with the recent Hariyama ban, I feel that it got a lot better. Big shoutouts to PenguinAssault for helping me write this and helping a bit with the team. Thank you for reading, and I hope you all enjoy your day.

    P.S.: i miss my boy samu ;_;
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2017
  12. Anty

    Anty dawn breaks
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

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    Feb 8, 2013
    Messages:
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    [​IMG]
    Show Hide
    Pinsir @ Rockium Z / Groundinium Z
    Ability: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Stealth Rock
    - Swords Dance
    - Stone Edge
    - Close Combat / Earthquake

    Pinsir is a really awkward mon since despite its amazing attack stat and solid coverage, its awful typing, lack of a strong STAB and mediocre speed really set it back. This Srock set is the most useful set i've used, since SD 3 attack feels like overkill when your not playing stall and choice sets are just outclassed (scarf is especially trash). Basically you can get up srock in pretty much any MU, vs offense you usually just sack it, and it can destroy bulkier teams with SD. Before weezing/geist got huge id use fightninium Z, but now if your running CC you need rockium, and with EQ you can run either, rockium helps vs geist whereas groundinium can allow pinsir to break quagsire/golurk. It may look like its trying to do more than it should, but in practise if you make smart switches Pinsir can usually get up rocks and a big hit off vs offensive teams. Not a particularly great mon, but its nice as a physical attacker not fucked by weezing.

    [​IMG]
    Show Hide
    Carracosta @ Life Orb
    Ability: Solid Rock
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 1 Atk
    - Shell Smash
    - Hydro Pump
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    With samurotts/barbaracles bans smash carracosta has finally had hype it deserves. Physically based sets (ajet/edge/hydro) is still the best, but full special is a nice lure to mons like gourgeist, bronzor, gastrodon, quagsire, gurdurr, and more, while still being able to do damage vs priority heavy teams thanks to its insane bulk. Its basically WH Gorebyss with better set up oppurtunities, ability to lure, but LO chip and weaker to some priorities, and its few switch ins (healthy lanturn/audino) mostly wouldnt be a primary switch in assuming its physical. The only counter to both sets that i can think of is ferroseed, but that isn't too hard to chip or lure. White herb might seem nice since with solid rock you can comfortably take shit like mach punch, but its pretty weak without it.

    [​IMG]
    Tauros is one of the best mons in the tier (arguably broken) imo but yet it still doesn't get usage/hype it deserves. SF LO is very hard to switch in, as it has tools to get around normal-type switch ins, like fire blast for ferroseeed and gourgeist, and in general there is like 4 good mons (bronzor/carracosta/phdef regirock/phdef miltank - there are probably more but these are the good ones i can find) which avoids the 2HKO with srock from one of its 5 viable moves. Offensive teams really struggle to find defensive tanks for this mon, and often settle for stuff like golurk which tauros can muscle through, and base 110 is amazing in this meta especially when it has the ability to OHKO or do 75%+ to common offensive mons like Lilligant and kangaskhan, and it can even 2HKO gurdurr, while having enough bulk to take any priority (even CB hitmonchan cannot ohko with mach punch). I know nothing i have said is new, but more recently offensive teams have been more priority heavy than running scarfers, which can actually be swept by tauros, and in general fatter teams often aren't running a sufficient check to this (though sableye usage is still high, its still gone down) as for some reason players forget about it despite being easily one of the best mons in the metagame. Pokemon like granbull/gourgeist can attempt to predict around it and rocky helmet is certainly annoying, but tauros is still one of the few pokemon which can be extremely effective vs every playstyle.


    Overall I quite like this meta and don't see anything as game breaking (not that I think nothing is bannable). Its annoying to see how most common physical breakers can be shut down by weezing/gourgeist, but players need to play around that and maybe use fighting types less since they all get fucked. Toxic Spikes are also the most obnoxious thing, especially since we only have one good grounded poison type and a few mediocre ones.
    pancake, Taskr, KnightK and 15 others like this.
  13. Ares

    Ares Fool me...can't get fooled again
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

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    2,349
    Everyone has been sleeping on Persian-A, really good momentum mon that helps teams with no recovery stay in the match late game. Here is a core I've been using that makes voltturn even more enjoyable.

    [​IMG]
    Persian-Alola @ Darkinium Z
    Ability: Fur Coat
    EVs: 100 HP / 176 Def / 232 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Taunt
    - Parting Shot
    - Foul Play
    - Fake Out / Toxic / Protect
    This is a set I adapted from NU that Shaneghoul passed me, changed the EVs around to outpace jolly Lycanroc. The point of this set is to utilize Darkium-Z Parting Shot, which brings the mon you bring in to full HP before hazards. This usually brings something that the opponent thought gone back in the game and can change the tide of the match. Taunt is just to prevent setup / hazards. Foul Play is a nice stab to get damage. The last slot is filler, Fake Out is nice to get status damage, toxic for walls, protect to scout for zmoves or choice locked mons. This thing is actually really bulky with Fur Coat and some investment. I have a replay from my most recent PU Open match to show how bulky this thing can be. Turn 19 http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7nu-622854720

    [​IMG]
    Scyther @ Eviolite
    Ability: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 8 Atk / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - U-turn
    - Swords Dance
    - Roost
    - Aerial Ace
    The second mon in this core is Scyther, just an all around great fighting check as well as pivot. Scyther has a lot of sets, but I like the SD U-turn set the most. Allows you to be pivoting early game and sweeping late game, SD Uturn also lets you get more damage on counters / checks early game and wear them down faster. The set is pretty self explanatory as Scyther has been around for a while. HP and Speed to tank hits and outpace threats, uturn for pivoting, SD for late game sweeping or breaking down counters, Roost for recovery, Aerial Ace for stab.

    Edit: Supposed I should of posted this in the good cores thread, but I more wanted discussion about how Persian-A is good and I threw in the core as an after thought incase anyone wanted to try it out.
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2017
  14. Liquidocelot

    Liquidocelot

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2013
    Messages:
    220
    [​IMG]Golurk @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Iron Fist
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Drain Punch
    - Shadow Punch
    - Ice Punch

    I wanna talk about Scarf Golurk for a second, this thing is one of the best things I've used on the ladder. It surprises so many people and can revenge so many things, like Pyroar, LO Tauros, SD Scyther, Modest Turtonator at +2, and can act as a better spinblocker due to blocking special Skuntank by outspeeding and Ko'ing with EQ. I know it seems bad but this thing carried me to the top of the ladder and is so much better in practice then it is on paper.
  15. Good J

    Good J

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Drifblim is a mon in PU that is commonly left out of higher rank discussion. That surprised me considering Drifblim gets access to flare boost, along with the move hex this mon is very deadly. Hex is boosted by 2x when the opposing pokemon is suffering from status such as burn, para, poison etc. Flare boost also raises Drifblim's special attack by 1.5 if it is burned. Calm max spdef max hp lanturn takes about 50% damage from a flare boosted hex while being poisoned, making drifblim a hard mon to swap into.

    252 SpA Flare Boost Drifblim Hex (130 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Lanturn: 211-250 (46.4 - 55%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery and poison damage

    Weezing is often used as a fighting check in PU. As you climb higher on the ladder you will find lots of Weezing's. As you probably all know weezing has access to toxic spikes, and toxic spikes will poison the opposing mons and allow drifblim to hex away. Drifblim's typing also hugely benefits it. Being ghost type helps Driftblim avoid most priority moves such as mach punch and quick attack letting you get that last 1 or 2 hits off before you die of burn. Drifblim is also flying type meaning it isn't affected by hazards such as spikes, toxic spikes and sticky web, this is also huge because, drifblim can be swapped in and out taking no damage if no rocks are present, it also wont take the speed drop from sticky web which can help it take out threats like golurk and hitmonchan that would usually out speed it after the drop from webs.

    Common driftblim flare boost sets include the one's below
    [​IMG]

    text (open)

    Drifblim @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Flare Boost
    EVs: 8 HP / 32 Def / 252 SpA / 40 SpD / 176 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Rest
    - Hidden Power [Fighting]
    - Shadow Ball
    - Calm Mind

    Drifblim @ Flame Orb
    Ability: Flare Boost
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Calm Mind
    - Hex
    - Psychic
    - Pain Split




    Another bonus is the fact that Driftblim's shiny is dope asf. With all that being said, i hope you enjoyed my post, and i hope somehow i was able to persuade you to use drifblim in the future.
  16. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    504
    This seems cool, but I have one minor nitpick. On the first set, why Rest? It removes Burn temporarily, and you have Pain Split for recovery. Also, what are those wonky EVs for?
    Melons-N-Soda likes this.
  17. Good J

    Good J

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    that was a suggest set when i was doing calcs, so apparently in oras that was popular or something.
  18. TONE

    TONE Get your bitch a cannon. Bitches love cannons.
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2013
    Messages:
    1,218
    First off, welcome to Smogon. I just wanna say that while Drifblim is not common in the meta, there are a few mistakes in your post I'd like to point out. First in your calc vs Lanturn, no Lanturn runs Max HP/ Max SpDef as Lanturn's high base HP allows it to put investment elsewhere. Also not to be rude in any way, but Flare Boost Drifblim just isn't good at all. If you want to use Special Drifblim here's the set:


    Drifblim @ Chesto Berry / Aguav Berry
    Ability: Unburden
    EVs: 8 HP / 32 Def / 252 SpA / 40 SpD / 176 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Shadow Ball
    - Hidden Power Fighting
    - Rest / Substitute

    You outspeed base 70s such as Ludicolo and Substitute is nice for bypassing Sucker Punches from Skuntank. Both items aid in restoring Drifblim's health while at the same time activating Unburden, however Unburden is really the only thing that seperates it from Oricorio-Sensu, which can Calm Mind as well, has roost for recovery and Hurricane for STAB to get off a strong Supersonic Skystrike.
  19. Good J

    Good J

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    Im aware that no lanturn runs max hp and max special defense, it was more of making a statement, lanturn is a good special defensive wall in the tier and if drifblim can 2 okho that at max hp and max special defense, imagine what destruction it could bring upon the rest of the tier. I dont think flare boost drifblim is the best, but i think its def slept on, and can work if you incorporate it into the right teams.Also yea it isnt common in the meta, but i think it should be used a lot more than it is currently.
  20. Good J

    Good J

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
    text (open)


    Gastrodon @ Leftovers
    Ability: Sticky Hold
    EVs: 252 HP / 108 Def / 148 SpD
    Sassy Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic
    - Scald
    - Clear Smog
    - Recover

    Vanilluxe @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Snow Warning
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Blizzard
    - Flash Cannon
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Freeze-Dry

    Clefairy @ Eviolite
    Ability: Magic Guard
    EVs: 252 HP / 200 Def / 56 SpD
    Relaxed Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Moonblast
    - Calm Mind
    - Moonlight
    - Stealth Rock

    Tauros (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Sheer Force
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    Naive Nature
    - Body Slam
    - Earthquake
    - Zen Headbutt
    - Fire Blast

    Weezing @ Black Sludge
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpA
    Bold Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Toxic Spikes
    - Pain Split
    - Taunt
    - Sludge Bomb

    Hitmonchan (M) @ Life Orb
    Ability: Iron Fist
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Drain Punch
    - Rapid Spin
    - Ice Punch
    - Mach Punch



    This team was built around gastro for fun and as you all know gastro is 4x weak to grass so we decided to use vanilluxe as our wall breaker and grass counter. We then added Clefairy as a stealth rock setter, a win condition, and a fighting type check. Tauros was chosen as our revenge killer because of its incredible speed and attack power, Next was weezing to set up Toxic spikes and be our physical wall. Finally, we added hitmonchan as our spinner and general offensive pokemon. Wouldnt say this is the best team, as it struggles heavily with liligant and other sleep users like jynx, but i do think it would be cool to give this team a try.

    Me and lakeredman made this team, shout out to him on showdown.

    zard edit: dont double post pls

    Not very high, its out classed by shiftry, which can also be used as a defogger
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 28, 2017
  21. Yung Dramps

    Yung Dramps

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2017
    Messages:
    504
    Everyone here seems to be sharing mons they like to use that they consider underrated. Figured I would do the same.

    [​IMG]
    Regirock @ Rindo Berry
    Ability: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 SpD
    Adamant Nature
    - Rock Slide
    - Drain Punch
    - Rest
    - Sleep Talk

    The goal of this set is to bait Z-Sunny Day Charizard and frail Grass sweepers like Shiftry and beat them down with Rock Slide/Drain Punch. Rindo Berry, while seemingly redundant when coupled with Sturdy, is useful for staying at a healthy-ish amount of HP while making sure that you can soak up a hit even after a few rounds of Stealth Rock.

    252 SpA Solar Power Charizard Solar Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rindo Berry Regirock in Sun: 173-204 (47.5 - 56%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO

    Rest/Talk also appears redundant when you have Drain Punch, but I find Drain Punch is too weak and regenerates too little HP to be considered reliable sustain.

    [​IMG]
    Vullaby (F) @ Eviolite
    Ability: Overcoat
    EVs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 SpD
    Impish Nature
    - Foul Play/Brave Bird/Knock Off
    - U-turn
    - Defog
    - Roost

    Sadly, it seems that Vullaby has been forgotten and abandoned in this generation due to Togetic existing. In my opinion, it does have some distinguishable niches over the egg fairy abomination thing. For one thing, Vullaby makes for a great answer to all the Toxic Spikes bullshit going around, seeing as it is unaffected by it and laughs in the face of Poison STAB. If something like Acid Spray Skuntank comes around, you can just U-turn out of there. Your attacking move depends on what you need. Foul Play does huge damage to Golurk, Absol and Electivires attempting to switch in. Brave Bird, coupled with Overcoat blocking Sleep Powder, allows Vullaby to take on Lilligant with ease. And Knock Off is Knock Off. And finally, a 60 Base Speed tier allows Vullaby to creep both forms of Exeggutor, Golurk, Torterra, Lurantis and Aggron. Vullaby is criminally under-used this generation, still sporting a bunch of good niches over Togetic, while still being bulky when holding Eviolite. Just beware of Knock Off!

    [​IMG]
    Raichu-Alola @ Aloraichium Z/Psychium Z
    Ability: Surge Surfer
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Nasty Plot
    - Thunderbolt
    - Psychic
    - Grass Knot/Surf

    I know that Alolan Raichu isn't some super obscure gem waiting to be uncovered, but I still feel like it's slept on too much. I have only ever faced Alolan Raichu once in a tour. And that one time, it got a 5-0 sweep on me. Nasty Plot with 110 Speed and a Z-move is, quite frankly, ludicrously strong. The risk of setting up with such a frail yet fast Pokemon is high, but the reward is also high. Shattered Psyche is better for all-out power, while Stoked Sparksurfer is weaker, but comes with an added bonus of guaranteed paralysis, meaning if your opponent survives, they'll be crippled for the rest of the bout. Grass Knot disposes of Quagsire, Regirock, Gastrodon and Piloswine without using up your Z-crystal. I personally prefer this option over Surf, but to each his own. Now that I think about it, this guy sounds incredibly dangerous on Aveil/Dual Screens...

    So those are my Pokemon recommendations. I hope it would've been worth the wait!

    antyedit: replaced sprites with normal looking ones

    Thanks, I have no idea why the heck sprites get all weird when dragged in
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2017
  22. Cheryl.

    Cheryl. Celesteela is Life

    Joined:
    Mar 24, 2015
    Messages:
    1,879
    [​IMG]
    Lapras @ Choice Specs
    Ability: Water Absorb
    EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Hydro Pump
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Fire]

    A mon that I haven't seen much is Lapras, and I think it's really heavily slept on in this meta. While Vanilluxe may be all the rage as the offensive Ice-type of choice, Lapras does provide some neat advantages over the ice cream cone that can make it worth using over it on certain teams. Having a second STAB in Water really helps out Lapras in combatting a lot of the typical Ice checks people run, like SpD Thick Fat Miltank and Fire-types, while also getting a good chunk of damage off of Bronzor. Water Absorb also gives Lapras some more switch-in opportunities on common bulky Waters like Gastrodon so it can wreak havoc on the opposing team. Lapras is actually also a nice soft check to Vanilluxe as well, resisting Blizzard and being able to take 2 Freeze-Drys while Hydro Pump obliterates Vanilluxe. Overall while Lapras may not be as fast as Vanilluxe or as good as it (Spammable Blizzard is just so good), Lapras does have some merit to using it in more defensive utility and it's Water STAB.
  23. 2xTheTap

    2xTheTap
    is a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Jul 9, 2007
    Messages:
    614
    Hello! I haven't really posted much during SM other than some pro ban arguments for council stuff (due to being busy with work), but I have accumulated a lot of content that you will hopefully find useful. For starters, I don't really think all of the NU spreads being recycled from gen 6 are as efficient as they can be. They are a good starting point to be sure, but they should definitely be examined before re-applying them directly to this meta. I did this with Gurdurr recently, as it is awesome as a blanket check to physical attackers right now, and I ended up finding a more defensive spread that can make it more difficult to play around, especially if your opponent is relying on sets like Normalium Z Psyshock Jynx, Scarf Scyther, Z move Absol, etc. to either weaken (Absol) or break Gurdurr.

    [​IMG]
    Gurdurr @ Eviolite
    Ability: Guts
    EVs: 248 HP / 16 Atk / 200 Def / 44 Spe or 248 HP / 56 Atk / 200 Def / 4 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Knock Off
    - Drain Punch
    - Mach Punch
    - Bulk Up / Stone Edge

    This is basically a more defensive variant of Gurdurr. Its EV allocation into the these stats yields the following results:

    Defense: Its original 252 HP / 64 Def spread is decent, and it's used for living through the 2HKO from both Kangaskhan's Silk Scarf Double Edge and Tauros' LO SF Rock Climb after SR. With this new spread however, you still KO most of the targets that you need to with 16 Atk, and you now live through the following attacks (to be clear, I'm not advocating you use Gurdurr as a hard switchin to Stoutland or w/e, I'm just pointing out uses for its increased physical bulk):

    [​IMG]
    252 Atk Technician (CS) Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 162-192 (43.4 - 51.4%) -- 5.5% chance to 2HKO
    252 Atk Choice Band Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 242-288 (64.8 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 8 Atk Technician Scyther Aerial Ace vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 260-308 (69.7 - 82.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    [​IMG]
    252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 150-176 (40.2 - 47.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
    +2 252 SpA Jynx Psyshock vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 296-350 (79.3 - 93.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    [​IMG]
    252 Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Tauros Zen Headbutt vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 153-182 (41 - 48.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

    [​IMG]
    252 Atk Life Orb Absol Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 159-187 (42.6 - 50.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
    252+ Atk Life Orb Absol Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 174-205 (46.6 - 54.9%) -- 62.1% chance to 2HKO
    +2 252+ Atk Absol Play Rough vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 266-314 (71.3 - 84.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    [​IMG]
    252+ Atk Choice Band Stoutland Return vs. 248 HP / 200 Def Eviolite Gurdurr: 151-178 (40.4 - 47.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    Attack: Its EVs let it hit a jump point in Attack if an Adamant Nature is used (jump points are: 16, 56, 96, 136, 176, 216). 16 Atk still OHKOes Shiftry, Pyroar, Lycanroc, Absol, Jynx, and Zangoose after SR (Absol and Zangoose w/o SR), and 2HKOes most offensive Normal-types with a combination of Drain Punch + Mach Punch.

    At the very least, if you do prefer something similar to the old spread, I would either invest in a bit more bulk, or Speed for base 50s and hit the 176 Atk EVs jump point (i.e. Adamant 248 HP / 176 Atk / 84 Spe to outspeed base 50s).


    Speed: Very obvious, but if you run 4 Spe, it creeps other base 40s by +1 (Togetic, Kecleon, Camerupt, Probopass, other Gurdurr, Beheeyem, Wishiwashi, Gastrodon). Not especially useful, but you can do things like remove Togetic's Eviolite when you're low before you're KOed by Dazzling Gleam, if you cannot switch out fwr.

    With 44 Speed EVs, it outspeeds base uninvested 45s and lower (too many of these to list). Landing a successful Drain Punch on min Speed Drampa or Guzzlord before they nuke you with Draco Meteor is huge in letting an ally RK them, as a quick example.

    Anyway, that's it for my PSA; I hope after this, you'll look at more possible EV spreads instead of simply relying on old gen 6 NU spreads.
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2017
  24. rhydonphilip

    rhydonphilip

    Joined:
    Jan 8, 2015
    Messages:
    189
    Many people have already talked about samu/barb being gone that Carracosta/Gorebyss will take in that void, meanwhile some other water type pokemon are still just sitting with already existing/known utility and somewhat overlooked:

    First off: Rain, or more exactly Ludicolo + Kabutops. A menacing combination of pokemon able to quickly deal with most teams(if vanilluxe wasn't a thing, but take whatever you want with that, you need Probo + Jolly Kabutops to be able to properly check it with a more standerd rain team.)
    [​IMG][​IMG]
    the duo's sets (open)

    Ludicolo @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Modest Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Giga Drain
    - Ice Beam
    - Rain Dance

    Kabutops @ Rockium Z
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Waterfall
    - Stone Edge
    - Aqua Jet
    - Swords Dance


    Very well known combination for it's strength, accessibility and lack of consistent answeres(current PU answeres legit are just Vanilluxe and the now uncommon Abomasnow). Ludicolo ruins pretty much everything that isn't Jynx, Roselia, Ferroseed or Scarfed Scyther and uncommon stuff like Cradily/Articuno/SpD Audino. Of which, all bare Ferroseed lose to Kabutops. And Kabutops had the added utility of being one of the best set up pokemon in PU just seeing raw damage out put exept maby Raticate-Alola/Absol, both of which don't have the speed to safely get off none-priority attacks whenever they want.

    Besides this combination of returning pokemon, I want to point to 2 other rather effective pokemon to fit on common teams for the role of a fast offensive water:

    [​IMG]
    set (open)

    Floatzel @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hydro Pump
    - Focus Blast
    - Ice Beam
    - Hidden Power [Grass]

    While nothing has changed for this pokemon from last gen to this gen it still returns in the line of PU viable with the comfy 115 speed tier, 85 spA and the nice coverage that is provided by Focus Blast and the traditional moves every generic water type will run. With the potential of running Z-stones one of its moves such as Focus Blast or Hydro can become notably more effective, at cost of lowering the already not too impressive special attack the mon has because of its lack of Life Orb.
    [​IMG]
    set (open)

    Swanna @ Flyinium Z
    Ability: Keen Eye
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    IVs: 0 Atk
    - Hurricane
    - Scald
    - Defog
    - Roost


    Swanna, has changed so much in this gen and I have only found it to have adapted well to this metagame thanks to the beautifull typing in water/flying and the now added utility of actually hitting a hurricane + doing notably more damage with it this time. Not every team may want to lose the utility a Z-stone can provide on a defog user, but when you put it as an offensive water type others start considering it more. And I most certainly enjoy having a 98 speed, 87 spA water type with stab Z-Hurricane to plow past anything trying to answere those easy to spam water moves whilst providing Defog support for offensive teams.
  25. Good J

    Good J

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2017
    Messages:
    20
    I definelty agree with you, lapras is without a doubt slept on. Lapras also gets access to heal bell which can be very useful depending on the mons in your team. And if your not feeling water absorb, lapras also has shell armor which i think is such an underrated ability. Crits are all so common in the tier and can cause you to lose games.

    Another mon that is often slept on is Grumpig.
    [​IMG]
    Grumpig as we all know has great special defense and also gets access to thick fat stopping Vanilluxe in its tracks. But is doesnt just stop Vanilluxe it walls most other fire and ice types completely. Grumpig also gets access to power gem which can help somewhat cover its bug weakness and shadow ball which can help fight ghost types that has the advantage. Being so bulky with 110 spdef Grumpig can take hits from super effective foes that hit with special attacks. But most of all the main reason that i think Grumpig is so slept on is because of taunt. Many other psychic types get taunt in the tier, but non of them can use it as effectively as Grumpig. Taunt stops mons such as Gastro, Audino, (Articuno if your running speed) Liligant, Mush, Probopass and Quagsire. A dope bonus is whirlwind, which can stop set up sweepers such as Mush.
    Aldertz likes this.
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