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Discussion in 'BW NU' started by Annoyer, Oct 10, 2012.
annoyer is TAKING OVER
Man there are so many updates to be made. One thing I've vouched for several times is Grumpig who is one great special wall tanking hits form the likes of Charizard and Rotom-F and even Piloswine's Ice shard, despite being physically based. It serves many functions including being a special wall as well as providing cleric support and t-waving. Its base 90 SpA isn't exactly the best, but it's better offensively than some other walls such as Lickilicky, meaning it can fire off a powerful STAB Psychic or even a Focus Blast should you have room for such a thing. Another thing it has over the tongue-thing is a faster speed (base 80 is relatively fast for a wall) meaning it can provide quick support. Its let-downs lie in the fact that it has no means of recovery outside leftovers or rest, and it has piss-poor defense. All in all, it can be a useful asset for some teams. So, yeah Grumpig for C-rank.
I think Banette should be moved up to D-Rank.
Banette isn't all that good and has fairly mediocre stats but has a cool trick in Suicide TR, so it can start TR for those kinds of teams. Cursed Body can disable some random moves, and so Banette has that. It's pretty mediocre otherwise and is only good at suicide TR, but this alone justifies Banette's use on some teams, making it the perfect example of a D-Rank Pokemon.
Simisage and Simisear for C-Rank. They're both pretty vicious after an NP boost, and Simisear is a pretty strong offensive Fire-type and can wreck shit, plus a good Speed tier. Simisage is decent and has Focus Blast, which is enough to stand out so it can deal with the Steel and shit. Simisage really like Amoonguss leaving the tier and SubLO works too for both. Anyways, C-Rank should do for both.
Also, Gardevoir should be S-Rank by now
I'd like to bring up some discussion on Wartortle. Although many hate on it saying comments such as "it can't spin against ghosts", Wartortle is the best spinner in the tier. It can 3HKO Golurk or 2HKO with the help of a burn with Scald and 2HKO Haunter as well, the most common Ghost-types. Misdreavus also dislikes taking status such as Toxic or a Scald burn. The one thing that people forget is that not every team runs a spinblocker and therefore, the fact that Wartortle doesn't have a flawless way to get past ghosts unlike SMASHKOAL is irrelevant, and Wartortle is more resilient to hazards as it is not weak to SR. Wartortle also synergizes well with SR-weak mons such as Rotom-S/F, Articuno, and Charizard while still not giving up many set-up opportunities with Seismic Toss, Haze, Scald burns, or Toxic. So... should Wartortle be moved up to B or C rank? Discuss.
wartortle is the best defensive spinner in the tier and actually has good synergy with many of the stealth rock weak pokemon, such as charizard or articuno. it can be physically or specially defensive depending on which pokemon you need it to beat. scald is a great move for hitting the spin blockers in the tier; golurk, haunter, drifblim, and even misdreavus all dislike switching into it because they either take a huge amount of damage from it or risk being crippled by status. wartortle can beat missy by simply spamming scald and burning it. additionally it has a lot of options such as haze and seismic toss that prevent it from being useless even after it spins away rocks. i think it should be moved up to c rank.
I though it was already C-Rank... Anyways, agreeing now. Also Foresight+Spin guarantees a spin so that warrants some too.
Gonna edit this post with a nomination soon though.
I agree with Wartortle being a pretty good spinner. Foresight is almost a guaranteed Spin and most of the time people won't use Ghost-types. Ghost-type Pokemon don't like like switching into a Scald because they risk getting burned and even then Wartortle is bulky enough to take them 1v1 and Foresight Spin. Wartortle is already C-rank so unless Annoyer wants to add high/mid/low divisions for the tiers, I think it can stay in C-rank.
Now time for a real nomination: Metang. Metang used to be ridiculed as "a Pokemon that did absolutely nothing" and that may or may not have been the case back then, but right now the opposite is true. Metang's ability to take on Flying-, Normal-, Grass-, and Psychic-types all that the same time while setting up Stealth Rock is fantastic. Metang actually has quite a large amount of bulk to its name and its offensive prowess isn't all that bad either, it hits a good portion of the tier for good damage with Meteor Mash. This set in particular puts the best of Metang's qualities in one:
Metang @ Eviolite
Trait: Clear Body
EVs: 248 HP / 176 Atk / 60 SpD / 24 Spe
Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
- Stealth Rock
- Meteor Mash
- Earthquake / Rock Slide
Great bulk all-around and hits things pretty hard with Meteor Mash and a coverage move of choice. EQ hits the Rock/Steel types harder while Rock Slide lets Metang hit Rotom-S and Charizard, the former on the switch. Toxic deals with Musharna and wears down all sorts of Pokemon that want to switch in on it.
I think Metang could find a home in either A or B rank. Annoyer will follow this up soon, discuss pls.
The problem with Metang never was its ability to set up SR and sponge hits. The problem lies in that it's a total momentum drain on most offensive teams, and allows your opponent to switch in various offensive Pokemon depending on the set. Also, even with the attack EVs, Metang is still very weak. I think C-rank is a fine place for Metang.
I'd also like to nominate Golbat for C-rank. Right now, the metagame is none too kind to it, with powerful Psychic-types running rampant.
There are a bunch of questionable Pokemon in B-rank right now but I'm too lazy to nom a shitton of them and argue for them.
I've been using Metang in joke teams (Dodrio as well) and they actually were better than I thought. Metang walls a lot of top tier threats, such as Musharna, Zangoose, and it can even live a hit from CB Sawk without defense investments. Metang does suffer without Leftovers recovery though, it also doesn't have a recovery move, but I think it's a solid B-Rank, though I'm willing to place it higher.
Dodrio, on the other hand, hits really hard with a choice band. What separates it from the big bird Braviary is its higher speed tier, which makes it outspeed SAWK, Haunter, Sawsbuck, without carrying a scarf. It also has priority Quick Attack, which can come in handy for weakened scarfers, Tauros, the Simis, etc. Though the loss of bulk and no U-Turn really makes Dodrio a bit outclassed by Braviary. D-Rank is where Dodrio should stay in, imo.
Ah yes, I was just about ready to nominate Metang for B-Rank! But Ebeast already brought it up, so I'll throw in my support!
Metang has a great typing, and because it's an NFE, it can use Eviolite to buff its already decent bulk to make it great. Metang's typing allows it to wall a lot of the top threats in the metagame right now. Braviary can't do jack to Metang, ever, which is a plus for Metang. Same with Swellow. The other thing is that because of a neutrality to Fighting and Rock hard defense, this thing can take on Zangoose really well. Gardevoir can't do much to Metang either, neither can Musharna. (Exeggutor is taken on pretty easily as well, I guess). SR is the icing on the cake, and Metang does a really good job at setting up. 75 Attack is alright and can do decent damage. No recovery sucks, but give it Wish support from Mola, who has decent synergy with Metang, and it's good to go. Metang for B-Rank.
I'd also like to bring back up FLCL's old case to move Vileplume up to B-Rank. Vileplume may have been outclassed when Amoonguss was here, but with Amoonguss permanently out of the way, Vileplume is back to where it was pre RegenAmoon. Vileplume has pretty good bulk overall and can check Sawk locked into CC, and has just as good bulk as Amoonguss. Vileplume also has quite a few support options such as Sleep Powder (!), Stun Spore, Leech Seed, and Aromatherapy (!). These are all really good and can cripple opponents well or benefit the team. Vileplume ain't no sitting duck either; it's got a solid 100 Special Attack and can pose an immediate threat to the things it's supposed to take on (Like Sawk and to a lesser extent Golurk). Despite its flaws like its bad Speed, exploitable weaknesses, and such, I feel Vileplume is more than worthy of B-Rank.
EDIT: You do bring up some good points Magcargo 2. Metang is admittedly really weak (which is why Mola has been known to get lots of hate, lol), which is a let down. No recovery does kinda suck, although things like Piloswine have been popular. Although Toxic is kinda useful. That said, SubBU Braviary can set up but doesn't do a lot back, but it can wear it down. Anyways, I am rather torn between low B and high C.
I feel that metang should stay in C-rank. The main reason I think this is that metang is setup bait for substitute+setup move attackers since its so weak. Not being able to KO offensive haunter is really pathetic. He can wall top tier attackers, but his bulk is undermined by the lack of passive recovery. His weakness to fire and ground don't help either. Metangs typing may give him a 4x resistence to psychic, but psychics like exeguttor can play around this by using defensive sets. All in all, metang should stay in C-Rank because of his faults.
EDIT: Braviary's substitute+bulk up set can take on metang pretty well.
Vileplume faces stiff competition with roselia so I don't know.
Yeah there are a couple pokes that are just too damn high
Golem --> B rank. Just not as reliable of a stealth rocker with CB sawks running around. Back when, it was the only poke that could take a hit with sturdy, get rocks up and either sucker punch or even explode. Just doesn't work for me. Piloswine, golurk and regirock are all more reliable.
Arbok-->C rank. Don't know who thought this was a good idea. Most pokes can deal SE earthquake damage to arbok even with a +1 from coil or an intimidate. I think Muk functions alot better with more bulk, attack, and a good ability in sticky hold
Lapras--> C rank. Its best set is specially defensive, and regice does it better with more special bulk and attack. non bulky sets get destroyed by sawk. stealth rocks also don't help
Relicanth--> C rank. Too slow. Even with rock polish, gets destroyed by scarfed electrics, which are extremely common.
Huntail--> D rank. Why use this over gorebyss or Carracosta? Not worth it
There are a few if anyone wants to agree or disargee
I disagree with Golem to B, Golem's offensive power is pretty damn impressive, and if someone leads with CB Sawk it's a pretty easy switch to one of the many Psychic-types that you could (and should) be using on your team.
I agree with the rest of the demotions though, all of those Pokemon are not commonly seen, and have very notable flaws that became more prevalent as the current metagame shifted.
Huntail isn't that bad. Even though it faces competition with gorebyss and carrocoasta, huntail is faster than carracosta and has higher attack than gorebyss. It also has swift swim, allowing it to become a speedy threat. Lapras has hydration/water absorb, heal bell and STAB surf, make it an effective special tank even though it faces competition with regice.
EDIT: Octilery should go up to D-Rank. It has been stated aroud pages 10-16.
if huntail had sucker punch to nail rotom for an ohko after sr then it'd be pretty cool but sadly it's illegal with shell smash. other than that it's pretty much an inferior carracosta. the extra speed doesn't really help with much and carracosta has that powerful aqua jet to nail faster stuff with.
I feel Arbok and Muk are too different to compare. Here is what I believe they should be compared to:
Muk = Snorlax of NU: His good special bulk and power enable him to take on just about any special attacker without SE STAB and pummel them with strong moves with good coverage. Even his CB sets and Curse sets share similiarities with Snorlax.
Arbok = Durant of NU: It starts off with innaccurate STAB, which isn't helped by its easily exploitable stats (like Durant). However, give it the chance to boost and it would have fixed its power issues and more importantly its accuracy issues in a single move. It can then proceed to wreak havoc on the opponent with adequate coverage and an acceptable speed stat.
However, I see two problems with Muk. The first is its STAB choice: Poison Jab isn't too strong but reliable while Gunk Shot is powerful but inaccurate. It cannot get the best of both worlds like Arbok can, which reduces his effectiveness. And then there's the speed, which Golurk and Psychics can easily outpace. Curse of course does nothing to resolve this issue, as its lack of reliable recovery means it cannot weather powerful assaults for too long, which would be before it can really get its sweep going. Arbok sits at a good speed tier, where it has a fighting chance against Gardevoir and Braviary while outspeeding Samurott and Ludicolo and has stronger priority in Sucker Punch than Muk's somewhat laughable Shadow Sneak.
While Muk has Sticky Hold to ease Curse setups, Curse isn't too viable in this metagame right now with all the powerful dangerous threats. Curse Muk also has to choose between bulk and power (CB Muk has slightly less of this dilemma). Arbok has the more universally useful Intimidate and Shed Skin, which allow him to setup on weaker physical threats and walls respectively. Arbok gets dangerous after setting up once; Muk needs a couple of boosts before Poison Jab starts dealing noteworthy damage (I still think CB Muk is better in this metagame).
I use arbok more than I use muk, but you do forget some important aspects that make curse muk just as viable. First off, muk has better bulk even if arbok has intimidate (which does not work on regirock). Second, muk's sticky hold ability is nice, but it's poison touch ability deserves to be mention too since it's easy to fake sticky hold anyway. Poison touch along with muk's great bulk can really help you deteriorate muk's counters through the game to come back at the end and sweep. Poison'ing some stuff nearly 50% of the time with it's main stab (20% with other moves + 10% freeze on ice punch) can also let him nab some important 2hko'es without having to boost. For example, a max att +0 poison jab + 1 poison turn + shadow sneak will ko standard gardevoir making it very hard for her to switch-in. Arbok certanly does more damage at +0, but he has to rely on gunk shot's accuracy (which isn't even perfect after 1 coil) and then go for the sucker punch and hope gardy is standard and doesn't run sub or hope to win a speed tie. This substitue/s-punch problem is not something arbok only faces against gardy but against plenty of other threats like charizard, swoobat and simipour. After a boost, arbok is definately better most of the time, but against offensive teams that won't let you set up, muk can often be a better option. Muk also has the capacity to hit misdreavus better (unless you run aqua tail on arbok but muk can still get poison touch hax) which can make it better vs stall teams too since it's usualy the only counter stall teams run for both poison boosters. Muk also lives a rain boosted hydro pump from ludi while arbok can only sucker punch.
Yeah Poison Touch is definitely a thing, and it's pretty good on offensive Muk (Ice Punch shenanigans XD). Muk relies on its bulk to threaten opponents whereas Arbok relies on quick setup to unleash devastating blows (much like Snorlax and Durant respectively). Howvere, I still feel Curse Muk isn't too good even with Sticky Hold because the metagame is somewhat unkind to Muk, due to the prevelance of super effective attacks (commonly found on the same kind of offensive teams you said Arbok struggles with) Muk needs to weather during or after setup, whereas Arbok's speed means it is less susceptible to them after it kills something with its boost. Yes Muk fares better against Ghosts, but when there about only 4-5 usable ones in the tier, that's not a great achievement, not to mention Arbok can triumph over the most common Ghost in the tier (Golurk) that Muk loses to. Muk also wants Rest if it doesn't want to get crippled by Misdreavus's Will-o-Wisp, which can be prevented by Taunt. Hell, Muk's Cursing means even Frillish gets to do the same! CB Muk totally wrecks though, beating special attackers like Ludicolo, Regice, and Eelektross, Rotom and Samurott one-on-one with no setup while providing few safe switch-ins thanks to coverage that Curse sets lack.
Slaking needs to be dropped into E tier, it is completely useless and when one shows up in team preview I instantly know that my opponent isn't going to be very good. Regigigas is in a similar boat but it can at least be annoying with thunder wave before ultimately failing to accomplish anything.
Slaking is still pretty dangerous because only a few things can take a hit from it. A well-played Slaking is quite hard to stop if you only have SR up.
The thing with Arbok is that despite its lower physical stats, I think it's much better than it initially seems for multiple reasons - it has a solid speed stat, base 80 outrunning or tying most of the commonly used Psychics in the tier. It has two fantastic abilities (though I prefer Shed Skin for immunity to burns/paralysis), a powerful STAB move that has its main issue (accuracy) patched up with Coil, and solid coverage options in EQ, Aqua Tail and even Seed Bomb. I'd compare it closer to Scrafty - it's moderately bulky, can laugh at status and can hit hard after some boosting.
Arbok was a lot better in the Amoonguss days since it could laugh at literally anything Amoonguss could throw at it barring the odd Foul Play or Hidden Power, but these days it's still just as viable against things like Alomomola, Vileplume or Gurdurr.
I ~GUESS~ I'll do Annoyer's job and address some posts that a number of other people skipped over; these are all pretty good and I don't think they should be ignored!
As a side note, this is still probably my favorite thread in recent memory apart from maybe NUzlocke; not only is it a good discussion project and inspires people to post about Pokemon frequently, but it's a usable resource for players new to the tier or those that want to look for something "different but good" to play with. It's such a good thread (if we actually maintain it).
I'd be okay with that.
Banette to D, Simisear for C and Gardy to S I'm all okay with, but I'd actually like to push for Simisage to bump up to B (yeah, even beyond Simipour!!). Sub + 3 attacks with Overgrow is really awesome, and it holds several cool niches. For one, it doesn't really have much competition as a Grass-type; Serperior exists, yes, but it's not nearly as strong and doesn't have the coverage that Simisage has. It's slightly faster, but the only important things it outruns are: Rapidash, Kadabra, and Tauros (Jumpluff too if you're afraid of Encore I guess). Sawsbuck also exists but they perform different roles, and Simisage actually really easily beats Haunter too, which is becoming a very dominant threat in this meta. Simisage gets many set-up opportunities, whether it's on something like Alomomola or Golem or Golurk or w/e, and pairs really well with most Normal-types because it owns all the usual resists.
tl;dr Simisage is the best monkey by far IMO, and faces minimal competition for what it does. It's B-Rank as far as I can see (it's certainly better than Serperior!).
Ayup. Definitely agree.
I'm ok with Lapras / Relicanth / Huntail. Golem is definitely not on a downfall, and Custap Explosion is certainly good enough to have a niche. It's our best "suicide lead" while still maintaining plenty of utility for faster offensive teams, and it's one of the few SR leads that can actually beat Ludicolo etc. Arbok.. I don't think it's really C. It has the ability to sweep stuff after a single boost, and just the fact that Ground-types exist shouldn't be a deterrent. Musharna's popularity slows it down somewhat, but honestly Arbok can beat almost all Ground-types if they're slightly weakened. If other people agree with ya they can shoot me down, but I don't think we need to drop it right now.
I'm okay with this. Slaking is abysmal in the sense that even though it's incredibly strong, you simply can't afford to give your opponent absolutely free turns to do whatever they want. It isn't an even trade whatsoever, and you have a giant disadvantage by using Slaking instead of something like Kangaskhan or Tauros.
I'll update the OP within a day.
regirock to a
it's not as good anymore since a lot of stuff can take advantage of it (mainly samurott and ludicolo) and i'm pretty sure it loses to golem or piloswine. it can't absorb volt switch which is on like every team and doesn't have much offensive power compared to the other sr setters. it is still insanely bulky and can survive stuff like cb sawk close combat so i would keep it in a but it's probably not s rank material.
Nominating Magmar for B-Rank. Magmar is a great pokemon because it checks many grass types. Thanks to the eviolite, magmar becomes incredibly bulky and can tank moves like fire blast, shadow ball and thunderbolt. Magmar also gets lava plume, allowing it to reliable burn pokemon like maroak. Focus blast is a neat coverage move, and it destroys most rock types. A base 100 special attack means that it can hit oppoents for good damage. Magmar is devastating when used properly.
Also relicanth shouldn't be C-Rank. Relicanth may be slow, but almost all CS electric types are hard pressed to tank a head smash. Also, relicanth has good physical bulk, meaning that resisted moves like swellow's facade will barely do any damage.
I agree with Regirock to A-rank. It's still a good Pokemon, but its inability to take Volt Switch and not having as much offensive presence as other Stealth Rock setters (Golem has STAB Earthquake, Sucker Punch, and Explosion; Piloswine has STAB Icicle Spear and Ice Shard) kind of set it behind a little. None of the other Stealth Rock users are S-rank so it doesn't make sense to keep Regi up there either.