Philip7086's Round 3 QC Assignments (Snorlax, Suicune, Swampert, Raikou, and Shaymin)

[Philip7086]

Hello everybody! This is where I will be discussing my decision making process for what to do with the current on-site analyses of Snorlax, Suicune, Swampert, Raikou, and Shaymin. I will post with test results and you are all welcome to weigh in on what I have to say. Here are my initial thoughts:

Snorlax:
-Test the Offensive Lax set
~This set was actually pretty good, keep it
-Choice Band set needs a Pursuit slash
~Standing by this decision
-Rest Talk set needs Whirlwind
~Standing by this decision
-Rest Talk set should lose the Fire Blast slash, and maybe even EQ
~Standing by the Fire Blast removal. Earthquake to be moved to AC, IMO, due to the sheer popularity of Rotom-A. The special attackers who Snorlax would look to hit with Earthquake (Heatran and Magnezone) can't do much to this set anyways, and you can always just chip away at them to win out in the end. All in all, Whirlwind/Crunch is way better.
~Change spread to 240 HP / 252 Def / 16 SpD, as per the discussion below

Suicune:
-See here for QC updates on the new writeup
~Done. Thanks Rising Dusk

Swampert:
-Change MixPert lead spread to 240 HP / 216 Def / 52 SpD, Relaxed, to help survive Draco Meteors from Salamence and other random special attacks
~Standing by this spread. If you think you have a better one, speak now or forever hold your peace!
-Merge Curse + Rest Talk with Curse Pert set
~Standing by this decision
-Slash Ice Punch / Avalanche and Earthquake with Waterfall and Sleep Talk on Curse Pert set, respectively
~Standing by this decision. I would also like to see Avalanche be moved to AC, but I would like to hear some input on that
-Choice Band set should have Max Attack for higher chances of 2HKOing specially defensive Skarmory (take away from Def investment)
~Standing by this decision. Also a mention of Aqua Tail in AC would be good, for the reasons RL mentioned below

Raikou:
-Take off Charge Beam on Offensive Booster set
~Snorlaxe has a good point. However, I would still rather see this moved to AC instead of a slash
-Test Choice Specs set (likely outclassed by Jolteon)
~Changed my mind, this set is decent. I would still probably choose Jolteon over this on a team, due to random things like Scarf Tyranitar, but this set still has things Joleton doesn't, like bulk
-Add Modest Choice Scarf set (outspeeds +1 +Spe base 100's and does a lot of damage. Also not Pursuit bait like other base 115's who try to do this like Starmie and Azelf)
~Yeah, definitely could use a Modest Choice Scarf set

Shaymin:
-Specs set needs a Timid nature instead of Modest
~Standing by this decision
-Sweeping Shaymin set needs max Speed. Can take from SpA if a Life Orb number is still desired
~Standing by this decision. The current spread can be listed if the user opts for Hidden Power Fire
-Change "SubSeed" to "Leech Seed" and slash Protect with Substitute. Also slash Earth Power with Hidden Power Fire
~Standing by this decision
-Test Growth Sweeper set due to poor coverage and power. Possible removal pending test results
~Standing by this decision. Shaymin works much better by just hitting hints hard on the switch-in, rather than trying to set up some sweep from Growth

 

[cim]

I was actually about to test some of Snorlax and write up an analysis. I'll get right on that then.

I would be fine with getting rid of Cursepert entirely (only mono).

 

[Snorlaxe]

As someone who has a lot of experience with Raikou, I have to say that I've actually seen Choice Specs Raikou to be pretty decent. Its enhanced bulk gives it opportunities to switch in where Jolteon would otherwise be unable to, and even though Sleep Talk seems gimmicky, its actually pretty cool if you need a status absorber (and a lot of teams do these days with the shitstorm of Breloom running around). And I wouldn't be so quick to off Charge Beam on the offensive booster. Charge Beam is great when you need to finish off a mon @ low HP, as you will often net the Special Attack boost. While Calm Mind is much better when a switch is coming, if you're just planning on like finishing off a 40% Infernape or something like that, then Charge Beam becomes a better option.

Just my two cents, I love Raikou :P

I would be fine with getting rid of Cursepert entirely (only mono).

I've actually seen CursePert to be a really good set, and seen it used well by some top players. While the whole Mono thing hurts, it isn't so bad, as really Swampy can be quite a tank once special attackers are gone.

 

[cim]

I've actually seen CursePert to be a really good set, and seen it used well by some top players. While the whole Mono thing hurts, it isn't so bad, as really Swampy can be quite a tank once special attackers are gone.

I'm saying get rid of the non mono Cursepert.

 

[Snorlaxe]

I'm saying get rid of the non mono Cursepert.

In that case, then I definitely agree with you...overall an inferior set to other non-mono Cursers.

 

[jc104]

-Sweeping Shaymin set needs max Speed. Can take from SpA if a Life Orb number is still desired.

Given that the standard runs HP fire, is there really any point doing this? The only common base 100 users of Hp Fire are Celebi and Shaymin. Very few of either run max speed, and the sets in the analysis do not run max speed and HP Fire. Although of course it can be sensible to max your speed, there is little point suggesting this in the analyses ("a line must be drawn somewhere" as Rising Dusk says), and it should as such be left up to individual players to this. It should definitely be mentioned though that if not using HP fire, max speed is clearly the superior option.

Also, that Swampert spread you suggested has too many EVs.

 

[Philip7086]

I was actually about to test some of Snorlax and write up an analysis. I'll get right on that then.

I would be fine with getting rid of Cursepert entirely (only mono).

I would like to ask that you wait for this round's QC results before starting a Snorlax writeup, so you know what exact changes we'd like to see. Looking forward to the revamp! As for mono cursepert, I've seen it used successfully before, and some people hate the notion of having two turns for something to completely set up while you're stuck not doing anything.

As someone who has a lot of experience with Raikou, I have to say that I've actually seen Choice Specs Raikou to be pretty decent. Its enhanced bulk gives it opportunities to switch in where Jolteon would otherwise be unable to, and even though Sleep Talk seems gimmicky, its actually pretty cool if you need a status absorber (and a lot of teams do these days with the shitstorm of Breloom running around). And I wouldn't be so quick to off Charge Beam on the offensive booster. Charge Beam is great when you need to finish off a mon @ low HP, as you will often net the Special Attack boost. While Calm Mind is much better when a switch is coming, if you're just planning on like finishing off a 40% Infernape or something like that, then Charge Beam becomes a better option.

Just my two cents, I love Raikou :P

I can see the merit in that, so I guess I'll test it out.

Given that the standard runs HP fire, is there really any point doing this? The only common base 100 users of Hp Fire are Celebi and Shaymin. Very few of either run max speed, and the sets in the analysis do not run max speed and HP Fire. Although of course it can be sensible to max your speed, there is little point suggesting this in the analyses ("a line must be drawn somewhere" as Rising Dusk says), and it should as such be left up to individual players to this. It should definitely be mentioned though that if not using HP fire, max speed is clearly the superior option.

Also, that Swampert spread you suggested has too many EVs.

Yeah, obviously the current spread is optimal when using HP Fire, but considering there are two slashed moves on HP Fire, I think max Speed needs to be there. Good catch on the Swampert spread! It's supposed to be 52 in SpD :X

 

[cim]

I would like to ask that you wait for this round's QC results before starting a Snorlax writeup, so you know what exact changes we'd like to see. Looking forward to the revamp! As for mono cursepert, I've seen it used successfully before, and some people hate the notion of having two turns for something to completely set up while you're stuck not doing anything.

Pardon the noob question, but what are "QC results" and how does that differ from telling / suggesting that someone do a revamp? Basically is this a thread for people with SCMS to go fix stuff, or for people to make revamps per your suggestions, or what?

 

[Philip7086]

Pardon the noob question, but what are "QC results" and how does that differ from telling / suggesting that someone do a revamp? Basically is this a thread for people with SCMS to go fix stuff, or for people to make revamps per your suggestions, or what?

The difference is, these "QC Rounds" are meant to be much more in-depth than saying suggestions in someone's writeup for approval. We go through and strictly test everything and make sure everything is perfect, and then the documentation thread gets updated for writers to refer to when they do revamps, etc.

Edit: Also to respond to what you posted on my wall, the Curse set with Ice Punch and EQ and Rest is by far the most effective in my experience, and I would never want to take that down. Even if you are left doing nothing for two turns while you Rest, the coverage you get with those two attacks is far more advantageous than being walled by the numerous things you are with mono-Water.

 

[remlabmez]

yeah non-mono cursepert had a lot of success when me and phil ran it back in early 09, I havent used it since but im sure its just as good

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm posting to back up non-mono Cursepert. Holy shit does mono-water coverage suck against stuff like Gyarados, Suicune, and Vaporeon.

 

[Philip7086]

I wanted to note that user jumpluff has reserved the Shaymin revamp after this round of QC has made its decision.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yeah, I'm down for switching up Perty EVs and whatnot. Also, Aqua Tail deserves a mention on the Choice Bander. The 15 base power boost guarentees that 2HKO on special defensive Skarm, and pushes a few more things into OHKO-2HKOs.. I find Waterfall sometimes doesnt have enough punch.

Also, I have a pretty beastly EV spread for RestTalk Whirlwinding lax (Panamaxis can vouch for this).

 

[Philip7086]

Yeah, I'm down for switching up Perty EVs and whatnot. Also, Aqua Tail deserves a mention on the Choice Bander. The 15 base power boost guarentees that 2HKO on special defensive Skarm, and pushes a few more things into OHKO-2HKOs.. I find Waterfall sometimes doesnt have enough punch.

Sounds good, I think 2HKOing spdef Skarm should be good enough for a slash, if not at least a mention in AC.

Also, I have a pretty beastly EV spread for RestTalk Whirlwinding lax (Panamaxis can vouch for this).

Care to share?

 

[RaikouLover]

Just to clarify, that 2HKO is guarenteed with Stealth Rock (44% minimum with Aqua Tail)

For Snorlax, I used Impish Nature, 16 HP / 252 Def / 240 SpDef.. Defensive stats were 465 HP / 251 Def / 316 SpDef.. Extremely difficult to kill. Just for reference the thing is 5% physically bulkier than Max HP / Max Def Vaporeon, and 29% Specially Bulkier.

 

[jc104]

RL - that spread is far from optimal. For example, a Careful 240hp 252def 16spdef (as suggested by the defenseEVs applet) Snorlax takes less from both sides of the spectrum (and presumably you could adapt it to hit a lefties number and stuff, though I highly doubt the difference that that makes). Nonetheless, I have found that a RestTalk Snorax with a mixed defensive spread (even the slightly inferior spread) and Whirlwind was very effective, still easily carrying enough bulk to check special attackers, as well as checking selected physical attackers.

 

[RaikouLover]

Hmmmmm thats great then. I just figured with all that HP Snorlax benefits from defenses more but I guess not. I trust the applet!!! Thanks!

 

[Setsuna]

Just weighed in on this old update of Snorlax in OU. I'm linking you to that topic in particular Philip so that you'll know there is something that could implement your QC final test results if anything ;)

EDIT: Philip, found another old update, this time is Swampert.

 

[Philip7086]

Edited my OP with all my final decisions. These will be weighed in on by the rest of the OU QC team. Thanks for all the suggestions everybody.

 

[MetaNite]

Hi, I'd just like to say that Substitute on the Leech Seed set is very good and should not be removed. With only Protect, Shaymin cannot continuosly damage its counters like Heatran and Salamence. You are going to be forced out. With Substitute you can beat these Pokemon with Leech Seed. I'd also like to throw in there that there are many circumstances where Rest will be more helpful than Protect on the proposed Leech Seed set. Maybe have SubSeed and another Leech Seed set. From what I've seen, the one with Protect doesn't run much if any Speed EVs.

 

[Philip7086]

Hi, I'd just like to say that Substitute on the Leech Seed set is very good and should not be removed. With only Protect, Shaymin cannot continuosly damage its counters like Heatran and Salamence. You are going to be forced out. With Substitute you can beat these Pokemon with Leech Seed. I'd also like to throw in there that there are many circumstances where Rest will be more helpful than Protect on the proposed Leech Seed set. Maybe have SubSeed and another Leech Seed set. From what I've seen, the one with Protect doesn't run much if any Speed EVs.

I never suggested the removal of Substitute, I suggested slashing Protect with it -__-. You don't seem to understand the benefits that each move offers. Substitute is better for slower opponents, allowing you to Substitute as they switch, then Leech Seed while they break your sub, then continue using Substitute (Sceptile does this 100x better due to faster speed and less HP). I don't see how you think Substitute lets you beat Salamence, or even Choice Scarf Heatran for that matter. Protect is better for faster Pokemon, because you can Leech Seed as they switch in, then use Protect, then switch out for a guaranteed 37.5% off their health if they stay in.

 

[MetaNite]

Yes okay, I'm suggesting splitting the sets.

SubSeed @ Leftovers
Nature: Timid / EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice

Max Speed to tie with Salamence and Jirachi. But yeah, Hidden Power Fire drops that by a point I forgot =/ Hidden Power Ice however is useful for Salamence.

Support / Leech Seed @ Leftovers
Nature: Bold / EVs: 252 HP / 220 Def / 36 Spe
- Leech Seed
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power Fire / Earth Power
- Protect or Rest

As you said, the SubSeed set is better if you are faster but with Protect you don't need to be faster and can invest more in your bulk. Furthermore, Rest is helpful for full recovery. I think the Leech Seed set can also replace the support set.

 

[Legacy Raider]

Yes okay, I'm suggesting splitting the sets.

SubSeed @ Leftovers
Nature: Timid / EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
- Substitute
- Leech Seed
- Seed Flare
- Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Ice

Max Speed to tie with Salamence and Jirachi. But yeah, Hidden Power Fire drops that by a point I forgot =/ Hidden Power Ice however is useful for Salamence.

I don't think this set is needed at all - Sceptile outclasses it in every way (like Philip said). Seed Flare is not a reason to use it over Sceptile, and 'better defenses' is an invalid argument as well since you're compromising them on this set by using Substitute. There are no Pokemon that SubSeed Shaymin can beat that SubSeed Sceptile can't, and there are many that Sceptile takes on better (all the base 100s for example, seeing as it never needs to worry about a speed tie). And if Shaymin was to use a SubSeed set, surely it shouldn't be maxing HP, but rather investing in defensive stats?

I've seen the second set used effectively, though, since Shaymin isn't forcing itself into an inferior SubSeeder mold but rather using Leech Seed for its healing/draining utility in itself. That set plays to Shaymin's strengths - its bulk, NaturalRest, and its ability to run both Earth Power and HP Fire/Ice. Its ability to take on Tyranitar, Gengar, and Rotom-A better and Seed Flare make it play significantly differently from a similar Celebi set.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Dropping off a few words here. Oh yeah. You guys have to keep wary of Sceptile. Even though that green bugger's in UU (For credit, the thing's been used a lot in UU), it does a hell of a lot of damage in OU, in my experience. Ever since Latias has been gone I've seen people go to a trend of fast special sweepers, and along with the popularity of Shaymin skyrocketed some Sceptile.

Unlike certain starfish and trolls, this guy actually has a of dealing with ScarfTar and does a hell of a lot of damage to Suicune, even after a Calm Mind with Leaf Storm (74.8% - 88.1% boosted, freaking 112.9% - 132.7% unboosted). While Shaymin may be BL, Sceptile's advantages are fairly obvious: the ability to out-speed ScarfTar, a higher general speed, higher special attack (though it can be a bit negligible), and larger immediate power in a move. All Shaymin can do is have higher damage in two turns and hope for a chance of defense drops, plus the ability to hit Heatran without relying on EV's or inaccurate moves.

In other news, Suicune. In my opinion, The substitute CM set needs to be tested soon. I kind of doubt it, and so do the other 93% of Suicune players (| Suicune | Move | Substitute | 7.7 |).

 

[Seven Deadly Sins]

I'm sure Phil is the last person that needs to be informed of Sceptile's usefulness in OU.

Hint: Listen to the Smogcast :3