Pokemon Black and White (SPECULATIONS ALLOWED HERE)

[Mario With Lasers]

This talk of move combos make me wonder what they'll do for Singles. Doubles, Triples and Rotation are shaping up to be quite the strategic battling modes, while Singles has its most important strategic element, switching, being shat in every possible way by glitched Pursuit and ubiquitous Stealth Rock (I'm talking about the number of pokémon getting it and the difficulty to take them out, mind you). Gen V will be compatible with Gen IV so we will still have half the universe learning Stealth Rock, but they do have a chance to make the whole "hazard/pursuit system" less, how can I say, unbalanced. Make Stealth Rock do damage only to Ground-immune pokémon for 25% max damage, make Rock-types absorb it, give Toxic Spikes to more pokémon, let Rapid Spin work even against Ghost-types, make Defog useful, create a "healing hazard" move, maybe also a reverse hazard, also a move that throws all of them to the other side of the field, maybe another Pursuit, blahblahblah... Regardless of what they do, they should do something. Singles can't be left to bite the dust while Doubles and Triples get all the new toys to play with. I mean, no one switches out in Doubles/Triples anyway, so why not emphasize the switching mechanic in Gen V Singles?

Togekiss gets Twister, which hits two opponents. Not totally gamebreaking, but you're still disabling two opponents every turn.

(Well, to be fair, it'd be an 64% chance of disabling both, since Twister's flinch rate is only 80%.)

Lolwut, 80%? I thought the highest flinch rate posible for it was 50% (20% * Serene Grace + King's Rock)?

Also, I think that they should have increased the team limit of six. I mean, now you can legally win a match in two moves.

You could do that already in ADV Doubles. Explosion spamming ~__~

 

[Jats605]

Combo moves CONFIRMED.
I just wonder what could come out of this...

 

[satchmo]

Combo moves CONFIRMED.
I just wonder what could come out of this...

an isane metagame, with a bunch of crazy shit. it sounds so fun right now.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

Combo moves CONFIRMED.
I just wonder what could come out of this...

One move for the price of two, in a Double (or worse, TRIPLE) Battle? Unless the combos are REALLY good, it won't be anything ground-breaking.

 

[Bogmire]

make Rock-types absorb it

wouldn't really make much sense. rock doesn't even resist rock to begin with let alone absorb rocks. having it damage only non grounded pokes would be nerfing it too much imo. I say just have it cap at 25% for anything 4x weak to it. and rapid spin hitting ghosts? do you want entry hazards to be completely obsolete? I mean just send starmie in against a stall team and be done with it.

 

[blasphemy1]

wouldn't really make much sense. rock doesn't even resist rock to begin with let alone absorb rocks. having it damage only non grounded pokes would be nerfing it too much imo. I say just have it cap at 25% for anything 4x weak to it. and rapid spin hitting ghosts? do you want entry hazards to be completely obsolete? I mean just send starmie in against a stall team and be done with it.

To be fair, Regirock (along with several other Rock-types) use nearby boulders to repair themselves. Hmm, maybe Regirock should get an ability in the Dream World that absorbs them. If that doesn't scream OU, I don't know what does.

 

[iruchii]

Lolwut, 80%? I thought the highest flinch rate posible for it was 50% (20% * Serene Grace + King's Rock)?

Both Iron Head and Headbutt have a 30% chance to flinch *without* Serene Grace, mind you. And in doubles the flinch chance is a little higher because of some mathematical thing about hitting two Pokémon at once (which is why Rock Slide and Twister flinch a lot in doubles).

 

[Mario With Lasers]

wouldn't really make much sense. rock doesn't even resist rock to begin with let alone absorb rocks. having it damage only non grounded pokes would be nerfing it too much imo. I say just have it cap at 25% for anything 4x weak to it. and rapid spin hitting ghosts? do you want entry hazards to be completely obsolete? I mean just send starmie in against a stall team and be done with it.

Megahorn is super effective against Dark and it doesn't make sense, but was done for balacing issues. The ground-immune part is not too big of a nerf because, when you look at it, Stealth Rock was made to hit those Flying-type fuckers that were immune to Spikes to begin with. Considering Stealth Rock is learned by a gazillion pokémon already and has only one turn of setup, making it hit only Flying/Levitating/etc pokémon while leaving Arcanine and Regice and Milotic only susceptible to the other two hazards would be more than fair. This isn't about what's fair to Stealth Rock (lol), but what's healthier to the Singles metagame as a whole.

And lol Starmie. Are you seriously suggesting a single goddamn pokémon being able to nullify hazards would be more than enough to make an entire battling style obsolete? That's like saying special attackers are obsolete since GSC (Blissey).


Regardless, the subject of my post was the balancing of the hazard/pursuit and switching mechanics in Singles, not the specific theoretical effects of nerfs X and Y.

Both Iron Head and Headbutt have a 30% chance to flinch *without* Serene Grace, mind you. And in doubles the flinch chance is a little higher because of some mathematical thing about hitting two Pokémon at once (which is why Rock Slide and Twister flinch a lot in doubles).

I was talking about Twister and its 20% flinch rate. But I didn't know they had a higher flinch rate in Doubles. In fact, I've never heard any of it...

 

[R_N]

wouldn't really make much sense. rock doesn't even resist rock to begin with let alone absorb rocks. having it damage only non grounded pokes would be nerfing it too much imo. I say just have it cap at 25% for anything 4x weak to it. and rapid spin hitting ghosts? do you want entry hazards to be completely obsolete? I mean just send starmie in against a stall team and be done with it.

Well maybe, uh....oh!

How about the pokemon still takes the damage, but rock types sort of "add" the rocks to themselves, removing the stealth rocks from the field. Maybe boosting their Defense a stage.

 

[BuddyBlueBomber]

Give Rhyperior a Dreamworld ability that makes it shoot Rock type attacks back at the opponent (Including Stealth Rock).

 

[Ford]

Both Iron Head and Headbutt have a 30% chance to flinch *without* Serene Grace, mind you. And in doubles the flinch chance is a little higher because of some mathematical thing about hitting two Pokémon at once (which is why Rock Slide and Twister flinch a lot in doubles).

I was talking about Twister and its 20% flinch rate. But I didn't know they had a higher flinch rate in Doubles. In fact, I've never heard any of it...

I think iruchii was talking about the concept that if Twister doesn't flinch pokemon A, it still might flinch pokemon B.

EDIT:

Well maybe, uh....oh!

How about the pokemon still takes the damage, but rock types sort of "add" the rocks to themselves, removing the stealth rocks from the field. Maybe boosting their Defense a stage.

I got two: make Gyro Ball also remove entry hazards. Or possibly make Safeguard nullify entry hazards temporarily. Iono.

 

[Sceats]

Ok, so one of the potentially coolest features was just confirmed and you guys are still theorymoning shit!? Anyway I really hope the oath moves aren't the only users of combo moves and that you do stuff like surf then 100% thunder =D

 

[Tortferngatr]

Why not give Regirock an ability that makes you heal 25% from SR? It makes flavor sense (golem made of rock absorbing the pointed stones to rebuild its battered form,) and give Regirock a nice little niche for stall.

And yeah, I admit the Oath combos are awesome. Alas, we haven't seen the big feature that applies to singles, so we don't care.

 

[Mario With Lasers]

I think iruchii was talking about the concept that if Twister doesn't flinch pokemon A, it still might flinch pokemon B.

Oh, I see. Well, I was specifically talking about the 80% flinch chance of flinching one independently of the other OmegaDonut posted about. At least to me, it was 50% max (20% * Serene Grace + King's Rock).

 

[Baldafor]

In a doubles battle, with Serene Grace on both Jirachi and Togekiss, with Togekiss using Twister (40% flinch to both targets after Serene Grace, more with King's Rock) and Jirachi using Rock Slide (60% chance to flinch both), you have some serious flinching going on. Too bad they both need a scarf to outspeed the metagame, or else they would be banned to 2v2 ubers.

Combination moves sound really hokey to me. They sound like they could be either ridiculously overpowered or flat out useless. We need more details to talk about it more, but my general feeling is that it will not have a big impact on the metagame since using two moves in a doubles, dependant on speed even, to get one effect is not very efficient.

 

[Garagara]

I wonder if these moves will be useless on their own, like how helping hand is in singles. That'd be retarted, I hate having different moves for different play

 

[SSJ2Red]

I actually think the combination moves sound cool. I can't wait to see all the different combination moves. The Field of Fire one sounds badass. GF is really pulling out all the stops with BW.

 

[Sandstreamer]

Just some random thought I just had reading this: I want Sky Attack to not need charging when Tail Wind is in effect. =)

 

[DDRMaster]

@Combos: You guys are forgetting about the one rainbow attack that you get when combining Fire Oath and Water Oath that increases the chance of secondary hits happening. If it doubles the chance allong with Serene Grace, Dunsparce's Rock Slide will always flinch all of your opponent's Pokemon, provided it hits. If it only increases it by another 100% of the chance, like I suspect it will, it will have a 90% chance to flinch them or 81% when you factor in accuracy.

Granted, Dunsparce can only outrun positive Base 100s with a Choice Scarf and no other Pokemon can get a move with that high of a flinch rate with Serene Grace that hits all opponent's Pokemon, but it's something to think about.

@Entry Hazards: In order to actually stop some of the use of entry hazards you have to be able to gain something from your opponent using them. Rapid Spin or an auto-Rapid Spin Ability wouldn't work, even if they hit Ghosts, because you're not actually doing anything to your opponent and they can still get a free switch-in to the Rapid Spin.

IMO, Spikes aren't really broken and Toxic Spikes is nearly useless with all of the Steels, Fliers, and Levitaters in OU, so SR is really the only problem. Someone suggested giving Rhyperior an Ability that would shoot back Rock Attacks, which would work but I have simpler idea; make a Rock-type Volt Absorb. This would give you a free 25% HP boost whenever you switch in and clear the field of SR, provided your opponent set it up.

They could potentially give this abilty to Regirock through the dream world and give Regice and Registeel some sort of similar abilities. The only reason I would normally be against doing something like this is that Legendaries always have one ability but since the dream world is giving second abilites to starters and Eeveelutions, it could work.

 

[Mastadi]

Just some random thought I just had reading this: I want Sky Attack to not need charging when Tail Wind is in effect. =)

also: Razor Wind

 

[R_N]

Just some random thought I just had reading this: I want Sky Attack to not need charging when Tail Wind is in effect. =)

That wouldn't make sense, since the point of Sky attack is that you're gathering power, not building speed or something.

 

[DDRMaster]

That wouldn't make sense, since the point of Sky attack is that you're gathering power, not building speed or something.

Actually, you're searching for weak points, which is why is has a high critical hit ratio and can flinch, so something that could increase your focus or make your opponent's weak spots more easily accessed (possibly Gravity) could speed it up.

 

[Sandstreamer]

That wouldn't make sense, since the point of Sky attack is that you're gathering power, not building speed or something.

Don't forget you can skip that "building power" by eating some herb. Why not have a "dry start" using Tail Wind?

 

[R_N]

Don't forget you can skip that "building power" by eating some herb. Why not have a "dry start" using Tail Wind?

Herbs can give a boost of energy (for my faulty "charging power" reason), and I believe some herbs can heighten senses (for the actual reason)

 

[Mastadi]

By building up speed the pokemon in question could focus less on staying aloft and more on finding the weak points...

Common sense, duh.