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Reflecting on BW and Looking Ahead to Gen VI - SEE POST #508

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Huntofthelion, Jan 8, 2013.

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  1. VarunR

    VarunR

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    I was wondering if GameFreak or Nintendo has ever acknowledged the presence of competitive pokemon tiers or/and Smogon. So when they design the new Pokemon, are they actually conscious of the metagame, and take decisions accordingly? To put it in another way, would they actually want to benefit stall and reduce offense? Or let's say nerf Rain or boost Ice-types?
  2. Uvood

    Uvood

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    It had crossed my mind that it would hurt those types of pokemon, but when you put it that way, Stealth Icicles would probably not be the best solution. Lowering the bp of the Dragon type moves and giving something else Dragon type resist would help immensely on it's own (again, Regice suddenly becoming awesome in OU! dem dreams :3!). Generally, I just want Dragons to involve risk, you should not be able to play them mindlessly and get away with it, and they should probably not have so many inherent advantages over other types.

    So yes, I agree with you ;).

    Edit: above poster, I have certainly never heard GF and Nintendo ever taking input from Smogon, so I don't think so. Others correct me if I'm wrong.
  3. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    I think that even if GF and/or Nintendo are aware from competitive Pokémon, they are obviously not caring about this. Otherwise, they wouldn't make broken things like Genesect or Speed Boost Blaziken, and wouldn't let the metagame be what it is now. They only do things that are "aesthetically" better, not competitively better.
  4. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I don't really have a wishlist, I see them as a bit pointless since whoever design Pokemon is unlikely to care about a big, but relatively small competitive community when compared to hundreds of thousands of fans that don't give a shit about it and just want something "fun" ingame. I didn't really like leveling my Ferrothorn as much as I like using it in battle...
  5. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    Considering they run VGC they clearly have some interest in competitive elements. You can actually see this is some interesting places: Genesect has a 4x fire weakness, and of course, has an incredibly bad movepool for dealing with fire-types (basically being limited to HP water and Douse Drive Techno Blast for a water type move). This wasn't necessarily enough to counter it's strengths, but it's an interesting thing to look at and see an attempt at gameplay balance.

    However, this doesn't discount that obviously they have a big focus on making things for flavour purposes as well.
  6. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

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    Yes, but I don't think that these were made to balance Genesect, as those 4x fire weakness and inability to deal with Fire-types were balanced by 2 things: Stealth Rock, and rain teams. The former makes most Fire-types not named Heatran, Volcarona or Ninetales too risky to play. The latter simply nerfs Fire-type Pokémon and Fire-type attacks, and Genesect is even capable of taking one or two rain-nerfed Fire-type attacks if necessary, and has a legion of Water-type partners to deal with those Fire attacks.

    Even if Game Freak was to make "drawbacks", they also must take into account the situation of the metagame that they plan to make, because these "flaws" can easily be made irrelevant.
  7. VarunR

    VarunR

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    Talking about the VGC, surely the best battlers routinely use Stealth Rock, Drizzle and other metagame typicalities? Not sure if that would make GF/Nintendo analyze these trends, but if they did perhaps they'd be conscious of it. They do obviously balance some Pokemon out, therefore Defeatist on Archeops and Moody only on otherwise below average pokemon. They sure are interested in revitalizing older pokemon, which we saw with the DW abilities. They probably acknowledge that Gen V was extremely offense-leaning. But all of it is probably because their developers are creative, although I'd love to believe there's a Game Freak member over here who routinely plays competitive pokemon. :D
  8. PureQuestion

    PureQuestion

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    Well, it's important to remember that there's a difference between simply attempting to give pokemon upsides and downsides (and Genesect clearly has downsides, mitigated or not) and trying to anticipate something like a metagame. It's really hard to predict a metagame.

    With regards to VGC balancing, it's been pointed out that the Explosion nerf was probably a reaction to the move's sheer dominance in VGC in Gen IV; a 500 base power move in singles is good, but a 375 base power move that hits both opponents in doubles is fantastic, and overcentralized that particular metagame.

    I think it's unfair to say that they completely ignore balance, but certain things - in particular, that some pokemon are clearly designed to be bad, because they're made for the early game - sometimes suggest otherwise, along with the fact that it's really hard to anticipate all the impacts certain changes and additions will have.

    tl;dr Predicting the metagame is hard, and even though the game is designed to have somewhat balanced competitive play, it's important to remember a lot of pokemon (ie, many bad ones) exist to serve the adventure/rpg part of the game.
  9. Deglas

    Deglas

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    1. Hail and Ice-type buffs. They need more love. And Ice Body Regice would be awesome with a Defense boost in hail and actual resistances

    2. Better Rock-type moves. Omastar needs a better secondary STAB, as well as being good coverage for other special attackers, and everything needs something superior to stone MISS.

    3. Sleep works like in Gen IV.

    4. Evolutions/abilities for bad Pokemon. Especially things like Mawile, who only need better stats. Also, Skarmory needs one of Giga Impact or Hyper Beam, or an evolution with one of those moves. Its the only fully evolved Pokemon that lacks both those moves.

    5. Better special Fighting moves. Focus MISS sucks, HP Fighting is weak, and Aura Sphere has terrble distribution.

    6. Fog needs an inducer and some abusers.

    7. New Eeveelutions. We need Draceon to complete the Special types set. And others would be nice.

    8. Better spinners and spinblockers.

    9. Give Pokemon the moves that they scream for based on design. Torterra and Blastoise need Shell Smash.
  10. VarunR

    VarunR

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    Ice Body Regice and Lightingrod Zapdos. Two defensive 'mons we won't see in 5th Gen OU. Ice Body Regice would have been great for Hail, and Zapdos against Rain and Tornadus-T. Sigh.
  11. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    VGC actually doesn't use Stealth Rock that much. The matches are very short-lived so it barely has an impact.
  12. Nightmare

    Nightmare

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    I know everyone's saying more Rapid Spinners and stuff, but why don't we add MORE moves like Rapid Spin? Why don't they do things like buff Defog to the way it is in Doubles, or something like that? It's kinda lame that only one move in the entire game can defuse traps, and can be totally walled at that. Why don't we introduce some other type of trap-busting move so there is a better way to deal with traps? I think that would be a nice addition.

    -James
  13. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star

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    Rapid spin is very hard to balance. If you can reliably spin hazards are not great. If you can't do it reliably they are too weak.

    I just wish there were more decent rapid spinners. I hope they don't create any really insane one.
  14. Cheapoman

    Cheapoman

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    Next gen needs some improvements I believe.

    - Give me some types like fire and rock , heck even poison regenerator. If pokes Regirock, Muk, Moltres got regenerator, they would be more enticing for more players to pick them up.

    - More priority/normal defensive moves. An ice-type priority move that reduces damage from SE moves would be nice. More defensive abilities similar to solid rock would be a plus.

    - Give some lesser pokes evos like Farfetch'd and Delibird. Actually, let me add: Give Delibird an ACTUAL ability so it isn't a complete joke.

    - A really awesome thought was allow battles to have changing weather patterns, in that a Drought-sky turns back to normal due to clouds and have new weather as well (Poison would work like Shadow Sky from XD: GoD and a Windy weather making grass/flying types a bit stronger.

    Just some ideas. >:-0
  15. Qwertyuiop

    Qwertyuiop

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    It's interesting to note that GF did create a great spinner in BW (Exca), but it turned out to be OP and got banned. Hopefully, XY will have good but balanced spinners.
  16. G-Von

    G-Von

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    I hope no one mentioned this yet, but aren't Skarmory and Mantine linked together? Mantine evolves from the baby pokemon, Mantyke, so I think a baby form of Skarmory would be fair. I'm sure an eviolite-equipped baby Skarmory would still suck to face.
  17. Iamlegendshot66

    Iamlegendshot66

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    I would like to see some more defensive items such as one that had less effectiveness than the eviolite but effected any pokemon. Also new items to buff crap pokemon such as castform which I would love to use on a weather team but it sucks because of its low BST. This item could boost every stat but HP by 50% causing it to be a big threat on a weather teams as well as countering other weather teams.
  18. Lord of Bays

    Lord of Bays

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    This sounds like it would be hell to deal with in LC.
  19. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Terrakion choice band close combat:
    vs base 45 HP 120 defense baby Skarmory: 47.27 - 56.12%
    vs regular Skarmory: 49.7 - 58.68%

    Life orb Tonadus-T hurricane:
    vs 45 HP 50 spD baby Skarmory: 44.55 - 52.38%
    vs regular Skarmory: 45.2 - 53.29%

    (both 252 / 252 / 4 Impish)

    Id rather have leftovers.
  20. G-Von

    G-Von

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    Well that is some extreme speculation, but if anything, something like that would wind up going UU with Gligar I guess, yet still OU-viable.

    BTW, you guys want a totally stall-based pokemon Gen VI? Here's an idea: Evolve Shuckle and let Shuckle learn Recover.
  21. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Possibly we can get a decent spinner and spin blocker imo. Nintendo, please please please don't give rain anymore toys :{
  22. ClubbingSealCub

    ClubbingSealCub

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    ghost/steel levitating rapid spinner with spikes, go gamefreak

    totally not overcentralizing o/
  23. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
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    That can't be right :/ You're increasing its defense by 50% with eviolite. How is it taking just 2% less damage... Am I missing something?
  24. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    I am comparing mantyke with reversed stats with evolite (baby Skarmory) to regular skarmory first off, two "different pokemon." Baby Skarmory is a hell of a lot frailer without evolite:

    close combat: 63.26 - 74.48%

    you can do the calcs yourself here http://honko.byethost8.com/manly_calc.html

    Evolite defense boosts are just +1.
  25. Joeyboy

    Joeyboy Check out my Youtube channel! JoeyboyGames!
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    xD I thought this "baby skarmory" was literally skarmory. Someone had mentioned an evolved skarmory so I thought the baby skarmory was just a normal skarm who could now use eviolite.

    Regardless don't mind me, was just totally confused.
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