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CAP 2 Revenankh Playtesting

Discussion in 'CAP Process Archive' started by DougJustDoug, Apr 12, 2008.

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  1. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    The Bulk Up set made me use Choice Specs Togekiss. Honestly, Shed Skin might have been a mistake on this. At least Air Lock + Moonlight allows Toxic to beat this thing...having a potential Full Restore is a little ridiculous, especially on such a specially bulky Pokemon that learns Bulk Up...
  2. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    The thing that ruins my Revenankh most often is Metal Sound Zapdos.
  3. Dane

    Dane

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    Balanced walls in general that aren't weak to ghost/fighting/ice do well against Revenankh. I got obliterated by a Suicune because it could hit harder after stat upping than I could.

    The main thing that's been killing me though are critical hits. I'll be taking consistant 20% damage after a bulk up or two, be sitting at 60% (with them faster), so I figure "Hey, now's a good time to rest". BAM, critical hit. Happened about 70% of the time so far.
  4. Dekzeh

    Dekzeh It's the sound of the world ending.
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    Too bad you can't rely on hax to counter a poke :P

    From my experience, Togekiss and Staraptor are pretty good counters(even with a CB Staraptor can switch in nicely, since most Rev won't pump the Atk too much and there's intimidate, and Togekiss is already pretty bulky).
  5. flygon493

    flygon493

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    ZH Jirachi seem to fair well. The doubled flinch rate really tears mine down(I normally don't even get in a hit). Togekiss is by far the biggest thorn in his side, as it is immune to being KO'ed by a surprise shadow sneak, hits SE with STAB Air Slash(with doubled flinch rate), has access to NP(which, I think, has OHKOed my Revenankh with Air Slash), and can Roost to heal off damage(although this would make it very weak to Hammer Arm).
  6. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    This doesn't qualify as playtesting, but I had to give some publicity to Elagune who made this wonderful comic in his art thread.

    [​IMG]

    The rest of Elagune's art thread is here:
    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39375

    It's not playtesting, but it is Revenankh getting exposure to the rest of the world, so I think we can allow it. If you want to post compliments to Elagune, then do it over in his art thread so everyone in Smogon will see the praise.

    Thanks Elagune!
  7. futuresuperstar

    futuresuperstar

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    Are people forgetting that a standard Taunt / DD Gyarados beats Revenankh every time? It can switch in on fighting attacks with ease, is quite bulky, intimidates, out-speeds and taunts Revenankh's plans to Bulk Up or Rest / Moonlight, and can Dragon Dance it its face. Power Whip is Revenankh's best chance, but it still isn't very strong.

    Anything faster than Revenankh with Taunt that isn't weak to Ghost / Fighting basically beats it. Even Gliscor serves as a counter, as it's 4x-Ice weak can be cut in half with Roost, and it still has such astronomical defense that it can survive a hit and pummel on it. Knock Off hurts ShedRest pretty bad, as well. Muk also falls under Weezing's territory, but has Taunt in place of Haze.

    Bulky Pokemon like Hippowdon and Donphan can simply roar it away if it doesn't have Taunt. Suicune can out-speed it, survive hits even after a few bulk ups, and Roar it away as well. Skarmory can easily Brave Bird / Drill Peck it and threaten Whirlwind, playing mind games with it. Most Revenankh forego Taunt, and those that do lose either coverage or bulk up.

    Also, Taunt goes straight through Substitutes, so the SubPunch set is owned just as easily.

    Togekiss really is the real deal. It can Wish to avoid Roost's side-effect. It obviously beats it with Air Slash. And, it out-speeds it and can Encore Bulk Ups.

    Encore and Taunt are really the bane of any Revenankh, because left without recovery and Bulk Up, Revenankh is nothing but a vulnerable shell.

    While Substitite blocks Leech Seed, it really annoys the typical set, as earlier stated. Salamence faces the fear of Ice Punch, but can Intimidate, resist Fighting-typed attacks, and hit it hard. This still dies to SpecsMence.

    Zapdos with Metal Sound OR Charge Beam can beat it, as well. Metagross / Jirachi with Zen Headbutt to a number.

    I will say that Shadow Sneak is amazing on this guy. All of the powerful special attacking threats that can overcome Revenankh's monstrous special defense and out-speed it -- Alakazam, Gengar, Azelf -- fall victim to it. Meanwhile, a lot of other main special attackers -- Heatran, Porygon-Z, Magnezone -- are weak to Fighting.

    Don't forget Yanmega! Yanmega can actually come in quite easily on a Bulk Up or Hammer Arm, and can even take a Shadow Punch. It can then Protect, Hypnosis, and Air Slash it in the face.

    If Wobbufet is is allowed in OU, it can come in on anything but Shadow Punch and immediately screw Revenankh up. It's bulky enough to withstand Shadow Sneak and Shadow Punch if it only has one or two Bulk Ups.

    There are enough counters for this, I think. But, it definitely is a monster.
  8. Sunday

    Sunday God Bless Nintys Incompetence :*)
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    [​IMG]
    Breloom (M) @ Toxic Orb
    Ability: Poison Heal
    EVs: 44 HP/252 Atk/212 Spd
    Adamant nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Leech Seed
    - Spore
    - Substitute
    - Focus Punch

    Comes in at the first sign of Revvy, aka not when it's got a few Bulk Ups and Ice Punch could deal serious damage. Spores first turn, then Seeds and Subs until Revvy wakes up. If it wakes up via Shed Skin, you get the message at the end of the turn so next turn you can put him straight back into a slumber before he does anything. If he wakes up without Shed Skin bad luck for you :( Every turn you've got nothing else to do launch Focus Punches to stop Revenankh switching out.
  9. Bluekikatana

    Bluekikatana

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    I love using Revenankh.
    I'm going to be completely honest on it though. It makes the meta-game centric around it to be able to counter it, much like Garchomp or TTar, it's that powerful. I think the most over powering thing about it is the shed skin with rest. Which can work like full restores, whenever I end up sweeping people 6-0 after a few bulk ups and resting off my damage in one turn I just think it's so ridiculously over powered with that its pretty funny X). It does have its counters that help a lot, but I find if you don't use a decent counter to it on your team, you will lose to it guaranteed. Status effecting it would definitely help.

    Also making a list of counters I've seen so far that work well:

    Zapdos metal sound
    Gyarados taunt
    Gliscor taunt
    Yanmega
    Togekiss
    Muk
    Weezing haze
    Skarmory brave bird (high attack version)
    Jirachi
    Celebi
  10. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    Checking how Revenankh fares against the normal Top15 of weighed Pokemon on Official, assuming Bulk Up/Hammer Arm/Rest/Shadow Sneak. This way is not entirely accurate because:
    - Revenankh can carry other moves, such as Ice Punch and Shadow Punch
    - Syclant should be in this Top15, and probably influenced the metagame as well...Garchomp, for example, isn't nearly as common because Syclant is on literally every team

    # Garchomp (62311985 points)

    Garchomp would probably win this one because Swords Dance beats Bulk Up, but can't counter it and it leaves a nasty wound from that one Bulk Upped Hammer Arm.

    # Gengar (59814460 points)

    Gengar tends to survive even Bulk Upped Revenankh Shadow Sneak unless Revenankh has significant Atk investment, and cripples with Shadow Ball in return. The ghosts dread facing each other.

    # Blissey (53873911 points)

    Revenankh rapes Blissey. Very notable is that, unlike Gengar and Dusknoir, Revenankh does not care about surprise status at all.

    # Gyarados (50567926 points)

    Tauntrados shuts down Revenankh fairly easily.

    # Tyranitar (45657280 points)

    I like to switch in my mummy into this thing. Taking Crunches is not its main niche obviously, but Stone Edge is fair game.

    # Bronzong (40733063 points)

    Bronzong cannot do shit. Try Exploding now.

    # Lucario (40198257 points)

    Revenankh makes a great Lucario counter. Only Choice Specs Psychic is going to hurt it really, or Swords Dance Crunch. Meanwhile, after a Bulk Up Hammer Arm OHKOs always.

    # Heatran (39092385 points)

    Revenankh can usually shrug off Heatran easily, but I prefer to leave it to my Waters.

    # Infernape (34741192 points)

    Most Infernapes seem to be Special based aside from Close Combat, so Revenankh is in the money.

    # Metagross (34295148 points)

    Setting up on Meteor Mash is the epitome of risky play, because it's leaving a lot to chance. On one hand, there's missing, but on the other, there's a Critical Hit or an Attack boost. And without a Bulk Up Revenankh is getting 2HKOed.

    # Salamence (32873187 points)

    Mixmence stands no chance for the same reason Infernape doesn't, and Choice Specs can't deal consistent damage either. However, Revenankh isn't putting a dent into Salamence either without Ice Punch.

    # Starmie (32172208 points)

    Without Psychic on Starmie (rare), Revenankh can Bulk Up with impunity. Reflect can set up something else to take it on though.

    # Celebi (30399423 points)

    Celebi does pretty well with one or more of Leech Seed, Reflect and Psychic at its disposal. Even Shadow Punch wouldn't really hurt it.

    # Swampert (29930892 points)

    Swampert can Roar out Revenankh in emergency, and set up Stealth Rock without dying, but asking it to take Bulk Upped Hammer Arms is a little much.

    # Skarmory (28416073 points)

    Skarmory gets in the way pretty badly, but it always needs to Whirlwind and then find a place to Roost. Roosting on Hammer Arm isn't a very bright idea.
  11. Amelia

    Amelia

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    9 out of 15 actually stands a slight chance against it. 6 of them cannot be called true counters. That leaves Tauntrados, Celebi, and Skarmory with Whirldwind.

    That means, if it's the last Poke, only Gyarados and Celebi stands a chance on that list.
  12. SoT

    SoT Yes please!
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    not to be a downer or anything, but this poke seems a lil broken to me. ShedRest is broken, and after a bulk up or 2, it takes mulitple pokes to take this thing down.
  13. DougJustDoug

    DougJustDoug Knows the great enthusiasms
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    I thought Revenankh's mediocre attacking stat would be a huge hindrance to it. I even predicted that it would not make much of an impact on the game. Boy was I wrong. Just goes to show the value of playtesting over theorymon.

    I think we need to let people start devising consistent strategies to deal with the possibility of Revenankh, before declaring it to be a centralizing force. Many of the pokemon that can be used against Revenankh, are already a big part of the metagame. Some BL pokemon are near-surefire counters against the Revenankh sets commonly used right now.

    I don't know about the rest of you, but I find it incredibly refreshing to "rediscover" strategies for the game. After months of facing the exact same team variations over and over, it's nice to get surprised by pokemon like Syclant and Revenankh. I'm surprised that one or two pokemon can have that much of an effect. I think it is great fun, even when I lose. In this regard, I think the CAP project has been a roaring success.
  14. Aki

    Aki

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    @Mekkah: SpecsGar dosen't even OHKO the bulkk up set with shadow ball. Pray tell, what set are you using?

    @DJD: Weezing, Togekiss, A faster Taunted that dosen't mind Hammer arm or Shadow Sneak (Gyara's perfect, Esp. With intimidate), Skarmory.
  15. tgva8889

    tgva8889

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    Exactly my opinion. It's so much more fun to lose to something like Revenankh than to fight the same teams over and over.
  16. Lil Ant

    Lil Ant

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    As i battle with Reven and battle against Reven, he is by far a very fun Pokemon to play and defend against. His strategy is cheap yes, but he isn't broken. Hell, Togekiss and SandSUbChomp is cheap as well, but they aren't broken. His counters list is someone large to have such a cheap tactic behind it.
    ~Zapdos ( Metal Sound works the best )
    ~Yanmega ( Air Slash, beats Bulk Up )
    ~Scizor ( with Aerial Ace )
    ~Shuckle ( with Encore )
    ~Weezing ( with Haze )
    ~Venasaur ( Sub Seed ftw )
    ~Milotic ( With Haze )
    ~Gyarados ( Taunt ftw )
    ~Slowbro ( Calm Mind + Psychic )
    ~Celebi ( Calm Mind + Psychic + Leech Seed )
    ~ Jirachi ( Reflect + Psychic )
    ~ Cresselia (Calm Mind + Psychic )

    The reason why i haven't added Gliscor or Salamence or even Dragonite is simply because Reven can seriously hold Ice Punch on a moveset. Power Whip and Earthquake isn't that common on him. Which is why certain bulky Waters and certain Steel types can counter him. Since Shadow Sneak has such low Base Power, even certain Psychic types weak to Shadow Sneak can beat it.
  17. Aki

    Aki

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    All of those work, and fine, but some of those sets arn't standard. Just thought i'd point that out ;)

    Not sure about Yanmega - Shadow sneak after a BU or two really screws him over.
  18. Lil Ant

    Lil Ant

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    Of course most of them aren't standard. Sometimes you have to adapt Pokemon when a new threat comes in town. Just look how many Gliscor's Aerial Ace went to Ice Fang when Garchomp became popular. Or how many Celebi used Hidden Power Ice when Garchomp became popular. Change comes with change man.
  19. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    If Salamence and Dragonite aren't counters because of the possibility of Ice Punch what is Yanmega doing there?

    For Gengar, I never used it to beat Revenankh...its OHKO was just hearsay, I heard Life Orb did the trick. Changing.
  20. Lil Ant

    Lil Ant

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    Yanmega facing Ice Punch
    75*2

    Salamence and Dragonite facing Ice Punch
    75*4

    150 Base Power vs 300 Base Power can SERIOUSLY make a difference. Which is why Yanmega can still serve as a counter. Also Yanmega can Roost and lose the Ice Weakness, while Salamence and Dragonite can Roost and still take super effective damage.
  21. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    I hate to say I told you so, but I did. Almost a month ago in the Revenankh workshop thread, I said:

    The counters people are discussing are very situational in terms of the moves they use to counter Revenankh. And really I think the Nasty Plot set I came up with has a lot of untapped potential, and it actually deals amazingly well with a lot of the above counters. Give it time to catch on, and then between the Bulk Up and the NP set, this guy will really make your head spin.

    I propose we cut its Special Defense by ~30 points. I know everyone wanted to make this a physical Suicune of some sort, but dual unresisted STAB on superior attacking types, stronger offenses, much more useful resistances, and vastly superior healing methods significantly outclass CM Cune. We need to cut its SDef to have some way of actually damaging it without very selective movesets. Either that or lose the awesome healing, but I prefer the first option.

    Unlike other sturdy, hard hitters who can stat up like Garchomp or Gyarados, Revenankh doesn't have a 4x weakness, and Revenankh can easily restore health when it's attacked. This fact means you can't repeatedly bash it like you can for Gyara and Chomp until it goes down, because its amazing healing methods mean it won't ever go down. Significantly taking away from its SDef would give fast Special Sweepers a decent opportunity to dent him, and even if they can't kill him he'll be significantly weakened to the point where he can't heal off the damage as easily. I could go on but I think my point is clear.
  22. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    It seemed to me the goal was to make a Pokemon that fits OU, and it'd be even better to make a balancing force. To make balance, you would have to nerf those too powerful and to boost those too weak in usefulness. So having more unorthodox counters while beating standards seems a good thing.

    Of course, there are :plenty: of Pokemon in standard. That stand a chance against Revenankh. Celebi is one of the most abused Pokemon on Official and it still stands (despite Syclant luring in the back). Togekiss rips Revenankh a new one. Poison Pokemon have always been decent for Toxic Spikes (both laying and removing) and they gained an extra boost. Taunt Gliscor and especially Gyarados make his life hard.
  23. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    All of those and more bar Togekiss don't stand up too well to Revenankh if they're switching into a Nasty Plot.
  24. Mekkah

    Mekkah watashi wa kirai every single one of you kisamas
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    I have seen exactly 0 Nasty Plot versions so far, and my own explanation for it would be that Bulk Up/Rest is just too perfect. It's not hurting anything without a Nasty Plot, and it needs one turn to set that up and give the surprise away. Togekiss would still pull through, by the way.

    Nasty Plot also leaves its defense open to be exploited by something heavy but slightly faster like Metagross.
  25. Aldaron

    Aldaron All da lil birdies chirpin
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    Let's not forget how effective Calm Mind Psychic Cresselia is against Revenankh...it basically wins almost everytime.

    Revenankh seems to be doing the opposite to what you are saying Jonathan; while yes, it is a significant force in OU, it is actually causing less common Pokemon to become more used. That is its "centralizing" factor...which in my opinion is good.

    The only criticism I have of Revenankh is that Toxic / Toxic Spikes would be a nice counter to have against it...but Shed Skin removes that.

    Shed Skin + Rest on a strong specially defensive Pokemon with access to Bulk Up and cool resists / immunities is a bit...unfair, if you ask me.
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