Metagame SM Monotype Metagame Discussion

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hmm not the type of person to post things on here but can we talk about how marshadow has 0 counters that can switch on it safely if we ignore the poison type which seems the only safe type in the Ghost/Fighting Meta
 

Harpp

formerly Alpha-Harpreet
hmm not the type of person to post things on here but can we talk about how marshadow has 0 counters that can switch on it safely if we ignore the poison type which seems the only safe type in the Ghost/Fighting Meta
It is true that marshadow has zero counters due to combination of speed,good attack stat,typing. Marshadow with its release has already different sets in usage such as Bulk up+3 attack Marshadowium z,Choice band,choice scarf,life orb to point out. All sets cannot be checked by the same pokemon that can check marshadow. For example: Mega sharpedo cannot check marshadow at +1 speed or how mandibuzz cannot quite switch in on banded marshadow on dark match ups:

252 Atk Choice Band Marshadow Close Combat vs. 248 HP / 244+ Def Mandibuzz: 201-237 (47.5 - 56%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/marshadow-is-now-banned-from-ou.3608448/#post-7418296
Marshadow has been banned from ou not that it has any relevance on monotype but it points out some important points which i feel are applicable to this metagame as well.

Marshadow having such a nice offensive typing that hits everything neutrally is very difficult to offensively check when we factor in that it has different sets which can be used all of which cannot be countered by the same pokemon.To top it all of marshadow has good team support in the form of jellicent and Mega sableye which can be relied upon in case marshadow faces any potential check. for ex: Marshadow is checked by tapu koko with specs or band but it also invites A-marowak as a switch in which causes electric to lose momentum(s/o smub). On fighting marshadow can have its check removed/weakened by other teammates such as terrakion to the point where marshadow can easily clean with priority technician boosted shadow sneak.

It has a special signature move which you all are aware of which is spectral thief which can simply steal stat boost which is actually frightening and that means not all set up sweepers are safe against it. for ex:With a choice scarf set it can steal boosts from +1 salamence which can turn tables very easily.
Since its release, many people have been talking about which type does well vs marshadow. Many people said poison because of its very good defensive cores however Bulk Up + Marshadium Z breaks that apart:
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 247-292 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 297-351 (81.5 - 96.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 138-163 (37.9 - 44.7%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
0 SpA Venusaur-Mega Giga Drain vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 105-124 (32.7 - 38.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
Mega venusaur can be set up on if using Bulk Up + Marshadium Z since mega venusaur only 3hkos with giga drain.
also here is a replay of poison vs ghost match up where ghost was running Bulk Up + Marshadium Z:http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7monotype-600180287 I have terrors permission to show this and teamtesting456 is me.

So to conclude i just wanted to list out that it cannot be effectively checked due to various reasons listed above such as different sets,team support and priority shadow sneak. Also it has since its release and is already impacting the metagame in unhealthy ways? and I certainly think it is a pokemon that should be at least suspected if not banned.
 
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Vid

Love Yourz
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So yesterday I decided to ladder with Marshadow and new Megas and I'd like to briefly share my thoughts on this current metagame.
The types that were most commonly used when I laddered were Water (Swift Swim), Fairy (Some regular others with Mega Gardevoir just trying it out I guess), Psychic (With Mega Gardevoir didn't see much Mega Gallade), Fighting, and Ghost.
When I was laddering what I found alarming was how frequently Fighting was being used. This was very interesting because usually the "hype" for a new Pokemon or Mega Evolution dies down within two days even if it's a staple. This got me thinking why is Fighting so good in current metagame even with Fairy still running rampant in the current metagame. This lead me to the question of whether or not Marshadow is healthy for the Monotype metagame.
Its Stats
The major take away is Marshadow's blazing base 125 Speed being able to outspeed majority of the metagame outspeeding fast threats such as Greninja and Gengar. With such a high speed stat Choice Scarf Marshadow is able to outspeed Sand Rush Excadrill in Sand, Ground's premier revenge killer. It also has a base 125 Attack stat which on paper doesn't seem impressive, but in practice it is extremely powerful especially with a Choice Band. On top of that it also has a decent Special Attack stat, which along with Technician allows it to use Hidden Power Ice and Fire. Marshadow may have good offenses and speed, but it also has decent bulk, which allows it to take most neutral hits with relative ease.
Marshadow's versatility
Marshadow doesn't have much variety in it's movesets because it doesn't really need coverage because of its unresisted STAB coverage in Close Combat and Spectral Thief. It also has powerful priority in Technician Shadow Sneak, which allows it to take out frail faster attackers that can easily revenge kill it. Let's not forget it has Ice Punch or Hidden Power Ice to deal with Tank Garchomp and defensive Lando-T.
Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch
I found that Choice Band is the best set because it simple 2HKOs the entire metagame and doesn't have any switch-ins. Comparing it to other powerful wallbreakers such as Landorus and Kyurem-B, Marshadow has good bulk like these wallbreakers, but what sets it apart is its base 125 speed (compared to base 101 and 95 speed of Landorus and Kyurem-B), which almost invalidates offense in Monotype.
Other sets
I saw a bit of Choice Scarf Marshadow as alternative way of speed control over Gengar. This would allow Gengar to run Taunt or Ghost Z instead of usual Choice Scarf. Alternatively, I saw Life Orb (With Hidden Power Ice) so that Marshadow can switch up moves, but the raw power of Choice Band is too good to pass up.
Let's talk about what I used and saw that was used to combat Marshadow
How do types deal with Marshadow?
Psychic

Choice Scarf Meloetta was on every Psychic team I built which is a red flag because outside of checking Marshadow Choice Specs is a better option on Psychic for its wallbreaking ability. Choice Scarf Meloetta takes up a valuable slot on Psychic teams sacrificing other matchups to avoid autolosing to Marshadow.
Normal

Same Psychic I had to run Choice Scarf Meloetta over Choice Scarf Ditto, which left my team susceptible to set up sweepers such as Mega Pinsir and Volcarona. When building a Normal team I had a choice either autolosing to Marshadow or being extremely weak to set up sweepers. With Marshadow I don't even see normal as viable option to use in the current metagame.
Ghost

This was basically whichever Marshadow was faster and KOed opposing Marshadow won, which is not healthy
Fighting

I was forced to run Zen Headbutt Terrakion over Iron Head so that I can put decent dent into Marshadow. This change left my Fighting team unable to hit Fairy-types so Fairy became somewhat a problematic matchup. Otherwise it's who can get use Marshadow to get rid of Mega Gallade first.
Steel

The 2 Steel teams I saw on ladder just lost to Marshadow at team preview. Marshadow basically takes Steel out of metagame like Talonflame did to Grass, Fighting, and Bug in ORAS.
Water

Water doesn't have a switch-in so I ran Choice Scarf Greninja to revenge kill non Choice Scarfed variants, but it was still extremely hard to KO. I had to run a more defensive Water team to be successful, Marshadow basically makes balanced Water almost unviable in metagame (Balanced Water still has to deal with Tapu Koko and Bulu too). Swift Swim is by far the best option in the current metagame so that Marshadow can easily be checked, but it cannot be countered by one of most versatile types in the metagame.
Fairy

Fairy has no switch-ins so the best way is to revenge kill it (Choice Scarf Togekiss) or to paralyze it with Thunder Wave Klefiki. Fairy is one of types that is still good with Marshadow in the metagame, but it isn't as good as it was before Marshadow.
Ground

I saw Ground once and it doesn't have a switch-in to Marshadow although Choice Band Sand Rush Excadrill(it's already pressured to revenge kill Mega Gallade and Keldeo) can revenge kill non Scarfed variants.
I could keep going, but these were the most obvious and easiest to point out Marshadow's impact on the metagame.
I know most people are calling for a suspect, but I think a quickban is justified in this situation because of how impactful Marshadow has been in short time it has been in the metagame.
 
Normal

Same Psychic I had to run Choice Scarf Meloetta over Choice Scarf Ditto, which left my team susceptible to set up sweepers such as Mega Pinsir and Volcarona. When building a Normal team I had a choice either autolosing to Marshadow or being extremely weak to set up sweepers. With Marshadow I don't even see normal as viable option to use in the current metagame.
I agree / sympathize with most of your post, but to me this is confusing - Why use CS Meloetta over Ditto when it comes to Marshadow? Having Ditto at least means you force opponent into 50/50 when Marshadow is out (i.e do I hit Spectral Thief thinking ditto will switch in, or Close Comabt thinking it won't). Both Melo and Ditto can KO Marshdow once in, but Melo can be outsped by CS Marshadow but Ditto at least will tie (better than nothing).

I mean, I think forcing that 50/50 is really important (mentally), because most marshadow are choiced so being immune to shadow sneak isn't SUPER important (plus band/LO marshadow can still be revenged if low from a ditto shadow sneak anyway) You're losing against CS Marshadow regardless with Melo if it switches into stealth rock twice. CS Marshadow is an easy switch in to Audino / Bewear anyway. Marshadow against Ghost is REALLY handy, because the only thing ghost has that can switch in is Sab, and even that can be 2HKO with some prior damage. Melo just kinda gets walled by Sab and even Jelicent.

Against fighting Ditto is still pretty good. Unless Fighting is using Buzzswole or something Marshdow does well against the average fighting team, as they tend to lack ghost switch ins.

I'm lattering with balanced normal (might even call it semi-stall), and between ditto and M-Audino I'm not overly struggling anymore than I would normally with ghost or fighting, so saying it isn't viable is a bit of a stretch.
 
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terrors

Fire and Blood
is a Contributor to Smogon
On the topic of Marshadow's versatility, i've found a comparatively uncommon set in Bulk Up + Marshadium Z to be even more threatening than the regular Choice Band. This allows it to break past its very few checks with a +1 Soul-Stealing 7 Star Strike or whatever that move's called, including Toxapex which otherwise takes two Choice Band Spectral Thiefs. Bulk Up also has the added effect of raising Defense and making its somewhat good bulk capable of setting up against physical attackers much easier.

Marshadow @ Marshadium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bulk Up
- Spectral Thief
- Close Combat
- Shadow Sneak
+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Toxapex: 247-292 (81.2 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Skarmory: 262-310 (78.6 - 93%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

+1 252 Atk Marshadow Soul-Stealing 7-Star Strike vs. 248 HP / 88+ Def Venusaur-Mega: 328-387 (90.3 - 106.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

Quoting this, the main factors that make Marshadow unfit for this metagame are how difficult it is to revenge kill, the lack of defensive checks, and Spectral Thief. Spectral Thief really deserves more attention than it gets. Being able to snatch boosts from the likes of Swords Dance Garchomp or any other Swords Dance user and using them to fire off a boosted Spectral Thief that very turn is dangerous. While players usually refrain from setting up while Marshadow is still alive, it can greatly support the rest of its team by just preventing setup from the opposing team.

Offensively, it has few checks and while certain Choice Scarf users, like Meloetta, can easily take care of Marshadow, its offensive presence, blistering Speed, and excellent STAB coverage being hard to deal with doesn't require much explanation. Its bulk isn't bad at all either; most Choice Scarf users that do not have super effective coverage fail to OHKO it.

Lastly, its lack of defensive checks is clear; nothing resists its STAB core and almost nothing appreciates taking the attacks. The few viable counters (barely) it has (Toxapex, Skarmory, and Mega Venusaur) are all very easy to take out with a +1 Soul-Stealing 7 Star Strike (calcs above) and the rest of the team falls to +1 Spectral Thief / Close Combat.

Get this monster out of this metagame, please.
 

Vid

Love Yourz
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I agree / sympathize with most of your post, but to me this is confusing - Why use CS Meloetta over Ditto when it comes to Marshadow? Having Ditto at least means you force opponent into 50/50 when Marshadow is out (i.e do I hit Spectral Thief thinking ditto will switch in, or Close Comabt thinking it won't). Both Melo and Ditto can KO Marshdow once in, but Melo can be outsped by CS Marshadow but Ditto at least will tie (better than nothing).

I mean, I think forcing that 50/50 is really important (mentally), because most marshadow are choiced so being immune to shadow sneak isn't SUPER important (plus band/LO marshadow can still be revenged if low from a ditto shadow sneak anyway) You're losing against CS Marshadow regardless with Melo if it switches into stealth rock twice. CS Marshadow is an easy switch in to Audino / Bewear anyway. Marshadow against Ghost is REALLY handy, because the only thing ghost has that can switch in is Sab, and even that can be 2HKO with some prior damage. Melo just kinda gets walled by Sab and even Jelicent.

Against fighting Ditto is still pretty good. Unless Fighting is using Buzzswole or something Marshdow does well against the average fighting team, as they tend to lack ghost switch ins.

I'm lattering with balanced normal (might even call it semi-stall), and between ditto and M-Audino I'm not overly struggling anymore than I would normally with ghost or fighting, so saying it isn't viable is a bit of a stretch.
If you have to run Mega Audino Normal just to be competitive that is a reg flag in my opinion. In my opinion Mega Audino is 3rd best mega to use on Normal behind Lopunny and Pidegot. Sure Ditto can check Marshadow, but the player has to be inexperienced to make that happen and it's still not a sure thing. With Melo it's a sure thing. 252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 0 HP / 4 Def Meloetta: 237-279 (69.5 - 81.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO even if it's Scarfed. If I have to win a 50 50 over just not needing to take the risk or risk a speed tie. Using Ditto is setting you up for a situation that wouldn't be a problem with Scarf Meloetta. Honestly if I have to run Mega Audino to be successful and win a 50 50 how is that healthy and still makes Normal a viable option? I don't understand what you're trying to argue in here, but using Mega Audino on Normal over Mega Lopunny or Pidgeot to be successful is unhealthy. Honestly forcing a 50 50 with Ditto isn't optimal result compared to always beating it with Choice Scarf Meloetta. I don't get you're argument because you mention using Mega Audino to specifically beat Marshadow when it obviously isn't better than Mega Lopunny and Pidgeot in other matchups.
 
I agree / sympathize with most of your post, but to me this is confusing - Why use CS Meloetta over Ditto when it comes to Marshadow? Having Ditto at least means you force opponent into 50/50 when Marshadow is out (i.e do I hit Spectral Thief thinking ditto will switch in, or Close Comabt thinking it won't). Both Melo and Ditto can KO Marshdow once in, but Melo can be outsped by CS Marshadow but Ditto at least will tie (better than nothing).

I mean, I think forcing that 50/50 is really important (mentally), because most marshadow are choiced so being immune to shadow sneak isn't SUPER important (plus band/LO marshadow can still be revenged if low from a ditto shadow sneak anyway) You're losing against CS Marshadow regardless with Melo if it switches into stealth rock twice. CS Marshadow is an easy switch in to Audino / Bewear anyway. Marshadow against Ghost is REALLY handy, because the only thing ghost has that can switch in is Sab, and even that can be 2HKO with some prior damage. Melo just kinda gets walled by Sab and even Jelicent.

Against fighting Ditto is still pretty good. Unless Fighting is using Buzzswole or something Marshdow does well against the average fighting team, as they tend to lack ghost switch ins.

I'm lattering with balanced normal (might even call it semi-stall), and between ditto and M-Audino I'm not overly struggling anymore than I would normally with ghost or fighting, so saying it isn't viable is a bit of a stretch.
The problem is that, you shouldn't have to rely on 50/50s alone to win a match, which is what scarf ditto is forcing you to do, while scarf meloetta is more consistent. It really comes down to whether you're vs fighting or ghost to how the match will play out (on paper).

If you're vs fighting scarf Meloetta is going to put in more work overall. Scarf psychic directly threatens the entire fighting team aside from the Pokemon that outspeed it (other scarf users). It has essentially no switch-ins, being able to one or two hit KO the entire team as long as you keep it healthy enough. While it cannot switch into Marshadow directly, it essentially gains a revenge kill every time it comes in, much in the same way Marshadow does vs your own team. Ditto on the other hand, being forced into 50/50s is extremely prediction heavy, and can be stopped by the fighting team if you make a bad prediction, leading up to a near auto-loss because of the wrong prediction.
252 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Cobalion: 190-225 (49.2 - 58.2%) -- 64.5% chance to 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Terrakion: 320-378 (99 - 117%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 318-374 (98.4 - 115.7%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Marshadow: 320-378 (99.6 - 117.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
252 SpA Meloetta Psychic vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Gallade-Mega: 129-153 (46.4 - 55%) -- 98.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

If you're vs ghost type, of course Meloetta will be significantly less effective due to being inable to OHKO Marshadow with shadow ball, and the threat of Mega-Sableye to prevent you from clicking psychic (not to mention Jellicent being able to absorb scarf Meloetta attacks). However, as long as Mega-Sableye remains alive, your ditto can't touch the opposing team. Scarf Ditto transformed into Marshadow is unable to 2hko Mega-Sableye (unless they're running 0 def and stealth rocks are up, which is unlikely), giving it a free opportunity to switch in and recover, will-o-wisp, or knock off either your ditto or whatever you choose to switch in. In this match-up, Ditto would find very marginal use vs a competent ghost player, therefore you'd be relying on your mega to deal with the opposing threats. Mega Lopunny would put in the most work vs ghost type in this case, threatening a large amount of KOs between scrappy fake out and high jump kick. While scarf Marshadow does beat MLop, scarf Marshadow always loses to defensive staraptor, being unable to 2hko it even with stealth rocks up.
-1 252 Atk Marshadow Close Combat vs. 240 HP / 252+ Def Staraptor: 115-136 (30.9 - 36.6%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Marshadow: 264-312 (82.2 - 97.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO (obviously fake out first would KO)
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 330-390 (108.9 - 128.7%) -- guaranteed OHKO
252 Atk Lopunny-Mega High Jump Kick vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Sableye-Mega: 270-320 (89.1 - 105.6%) -- 31.3% chance to OHKO (guaranteed after fake out)
252 Atk Marshadow Spectral Thief vs. 248 HP / 116 Def Sableye-Mega: 108-127 (35.6 - 41.9%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock (your ditto)

Overall, being forced to run Mega Audino to directly beat both ghost and fighting type throws up red flags as Vid had mentioned. It's already an extremely niche Pokemon to use, and there's significant downsides to having to run that over either Mega Lopunny or Pidgeot. Regardless of whether Ditto or Meloetta is the better option for beating a Marshadow, it's extremely limiting in your team building, as better described by Vid's earlier post.
 
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Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
Welp, with Mega Gallade along with Marshadow in the metagame, I can finally call Fighting decent this gen. And to celebrate this occasion, I'd like to share this Fighting team that I've seen quite a lot of success with:


Gallade-Mega @ Galladite
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Zen Headbutt
- Close Combat
- Swords Dance
- Knock Off

Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Stone Edge
- Close Combat
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide

Keldeo-Resolute @ Choice Specs
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Hydro Pump
- Secret Sword
- Hidden Power [Electric]
- Scald

Cobalion @ Leftovers
Ability: Justified
EVs: 252 HP / 4 Atk / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Iron Head
- Stealth Rock
- Taunt
- Thunder Wave

Marshadow @ Choice Band
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Close Combat
- Ice Punch

Breloom @ Focus Sash
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Bullet Seed
- Mach Punch
- Rock Tomb
- Spore


Mega Gallade alongside Marshadow prove to be devastating assets in some of Fighting's toughest matchups this gen in Poison and Psychic respectively. While this build utilizes Banded Marshadow, LO mixed sets can work just as viably. Along with these 2 comes some other staple picks for Fighting teams in Terrakion, Keldeo, and Cobalion, as well as Breloom thanks to its amazing utility. I can definitely see a lot of Fighting builds looking very similar to this. But let me know your thoughts on how Fighting stands now that Marshadow and Mega Gallade have arrived.
The Terrakion on this absolutely needs to be running Zen Headbutt somewhere, as of current all your counterplay vs opposing Marshadow is hoping you win the speed tie with your own, which isn't really desirable, and Zen is useful outside of this in the mirror. It doesn't help much vs Ghost but a well built Marshadow Ghost shouldn't be losing to Fighting. Earthquake is garb anyway.

Just for general discussion, a set I've had a lot of fun with:

Marshadow @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Bulk Up

I like Marshadium Z but this set is probably more fun imo! It might prove to be equally or more viable longterm. Running Fight Z gives a lot of flexibility, as you get a Fighting nuke without drawbacks or what I consider to be a frankly broken setup move, boosting Attack to +2 and Defense to +1, which with this kind of STAB coverage, Speed and priority makes you extremely difficult to revenge kill should you be able to pull off the boosts. Would only recommend this set for Fighting teams, as they have a tendency to drag in scarfers with their other offensive team members which you can use as a setup opportunity thanks to Marshadow's typing, eg. locked Terrak in the Fighting mirror. You can also set up on a p big list of physical attackers thanks to the +1 Def boost, similar to other Bulk Up sets. I did have a great game with this earlier where I swept an Electric team with ease after forcing Koko to take rocks damage twice and setting up on a slightly weakened Zapdos, but unfort I didn't save it.
 
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The Terrakion on this absolutely needs to be running Zen Headbutt somewhere, as of current all your counterplay vs opposing Marshadow is hoping you win the speed tie with your own, which isn't really desirable, and Zen is useful outside of this in the mirror. It doesn't help much vs Ghost but a well built Marshadow Ghost shouldn't be losing to Fighting. Earthquake is garb anyway.

Marshadow @ Fightinium Z
Ability: Technician
EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
Hasty Nature
- Close Combat
- Spectral Thief
- Shadow Sneak
- Bulk Up

I like Marshadium Z but this set is probably more fun imo! It might prove to be equally or more viable longterm. Running Fight Z gives a lot of flexibility, as you get a Fighting nuke without drawbacks or what I consider to be a frankly broken setup move, boosting Attack to +2 and Defense to +1, which with this kind of STAB coverage, Speed and priority makes you extremely difficult to revenge kill should you be able to pull off the boosts. Would only recommend this set for Fighting teams, as they have a tendency to drag in scarfers with their other offensive team members which you can use as a setup opportunity thanks to Marshadow's typing, eg. locked Terrak in the Fighting mirror. You can also set up on a p big list of physical attackers thanks to the +1 Def boost, similar to other Bulk Up sets. I did have a great game with this earlier where I swept an Electric team with ease after forcing Koko to take rocks damage twice and setting up on a slightly weakened Zapdos, but unfort I didn't save it.
Thank you very much for the suggestions, and I really appreciate them. I had heard about Z-Bulk Up a few times, but was never entirely sold on the idea. Considering how the Marshadium Z can break past Toxapex and Mega Venusaur, which are some of the only defensive countermeasures for Marshadow in the entire metagame, always felt like a much more desirable option. However, I will try out this Marshadow set and see how it works. Thanks again for your suggestions :)
 
Time to give my edgy 2 cents.

Personally I don't think band marsh should be used at all and LO and marshadium sets are by far more threatening to the metagame although after trying both, I think I like LO a bit more. Marshadium is p much a free kill a game, but the immediate breaking power LO provides was more appealing to me. Not only does it provide the immediate breaking power you need, it also let's you still be able to switch moves, which I think is being lost in this discussion. A mon with devastating duel stabs and inherently high speed thrives off of being able to do such a thing. I also think that the valuability of it's priority is being lost in this discussion. A life orb shadow sneak from marsh is as strong as a CB adamant diggersby quick attack. Now, a vital thought that pops into your head when thinking about this kind of stuff is "does it miss/grab any 2hkos that the other set wouldnt." I'm kinda just sitting here running a bunch of calcs with like hippo, skarm, rotom w, mega venu, toxapex, Swampert, mandi (kinda irrelevant but was just curious), torkoal, mega sab(also kinda irrelevant), and like clef. There could be more but that's all I could think of rn. Basically what I got from those calcs was that all CB marsh does is guaruntee a 2hko on skarm and clef and give u a miniscule chance to 2hko shit like hippo pex and mega venu after rocks. Rotom w is still 2hkod by LO, u have an roughly and 80% chance to 2hko pert, and mandi and torkoal are 2hkod by LO after rocks. As far as skarm and clef go, you have a halfway decent shot to 2hko lefties skarm with LO anyways and if it's helmet it just drops. Regardless, ur still keeping up momentum even if u don't 2hko both mons which is fine with me and doesn't make me need band. CB not giving marsh any needed power aside, the marginally better cleaning capability of LO marsh is another reason why I think band is ass. Again, you have the equivalent to a CB ada diggers quick attack at your side, which makes marsh do devastating in late game scenarios. Revenge killers like scarf tini, scarf latios, scarf gardevoir and raichu all drop to marsh while things like tapu koko, scarf excadrill are taking over 50% from and LO sneak. There's definitely a lot more that sneak does significant damage too but I don't feel like figuring out all that shit from my phone. Marshadow has ok bulk but it's not a mon that is going to be coming in and out of games a lot unless you straight up sweep someone with a bulk up set. So if u are just looking at AoA sets like cb and LO id rather use the one that makes the most of my opportunities with marshadow in a battle, which is clearly life orb. I think z move sets are a bit different since AoA sets are better suited to just hit shit right away, but I think the set terrors posted is an insane threat in it's own right. I haven't tested z move marsh with bulk up yet but it looks really threatening.

But yeah, band marsh is good and functions well as a wallbreaker in the metagame, but it's still inferior as an AoA set to life orb. And honestly I don't even think band sets should be considered broken.
 

Freeroamer

The greatest story of them all.
Thank you very much for the suggestions, and I really appreciate them. I had heard about Z-Bulk Up a few times, but was never entirely sold on the idea. Considering how the Marshadium Z can break past Toxapex and Mega Venusaur, which are some of the only defensive countermeasures for Marshadow in the entire metagame, always felt like a much more desirable option. However, I will try out this Marshadow set and see how it works. Thanks again for your suggestions :)
O sry, I realise how my post looked, only the bit about Zen Headbutt was relevant to your team, the bit about the Marshadow set was just for discussion, your current set is perfectly fine. Will edit to fix the post up a lil.
 
Here are my thoughts on this oddball:

As a ghost main I've been tempted to abuse Marshadow here and there. Marshadow itself is what patches up the holes on offensive Ghost, Weather problems, Speed tiers, the crippling Dark weakness ghost has, its very easy for me to hope for an anti-ban. Scarf Marshadow is a very consistent set on Ghost, which allows it to outspeed weather abusers such as Kingdra and Excadrill in their respective weathers, and coupled with specs/life orb Gengar they can be a very punishing pair.

However, I do not think, or hope, Marshadow will stay. You've seen Pokemon such as Pyukumuku or Dusclops that have had a crippling weakness in their stats, namely HP. Marshadow is a perfect example of a perfect Pokemon. With 125/125 offenses, it is able to speed check almost every Pokemon in the Monotype Metagame, and with Ghost/Fighting, it can run Banded sets as well. Though I would love an offensive staple on my team, I have to think about other types as well. Marshadow fucks up the viability of Psychic, Normal, Electric, Grass, Ice, and Rock, many types that are used in tournaments or even ladder matches. Poison has become one of the most reliable types with Marshadow's release, and I do not want to react with Marshadow spam by spamming poison. It restricts teambuilding, as Psychic being forced to run Meloetta or Sashed Alakazam to try and check this abomination. Mega Audino's usage, as Vid said, are the red flags for marshadow.

And last, the spam on ladder.
It's been 2 (?) days since this monster hit the metagame, and I've seen every other player on ladder own a Marshadow team, whether it be Ghost or Fighting. As I said, I've been trying a bulky offensive Ghost team on ladder, and its been really hard. I haven't seen Dark at all after the release, and it worries me even though Dark vs Ghost is an unfair matchup, that it is not getting any usage. Psychic is now having a hard time against Fighting, and with Mega Gallade Psychic has slim chances of winning against Marshadow teams, which I said, are everywhere.

So, to sum it up, even as a Ghost main, I would rather see Marshadow banned than let that monster in the metagame. It restricts teambuilding, and I'd rather have Ghost be a skill based type then have something broken to abuse it on. Abusing Marshadow was fun, but for the metagame as a whole, Marshadow should be banned.

being on the same boat with fighting was fun, wasn't it

edit: marshadow being in the metagame is kinda like when the chef puts too many toppings on your pizza, so you throw it out
 
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Eien

I'll face myself
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Monotype Co-Leader
Marshadow's wallbreaking potential is unquestionable, with the Marshadowium Z + Bulk Up and Choice Band set having 0 reliable switch-ins with Stealth Rock up thanks to its amazing STAB attacks in Spectral Thief and Close Combat netting it unresisted STAB coverage. Unlike even the many banned wallbreakers without switch-ins, Marshadow backs up its power with a blistering base 125 Speed, outpacing almost all Pokemon without a Choice Scarf making it very difficult to outspeed for a wallbreaker. Furthermore, even Pokemon that outspeed it will struggle to beat it, as it has very respectable bulk, meaning that even some revenge killers with super effective coverage, like Extrasensory Choice Scarf Greninja, Choice Scarf Gengar, and Mega Pinsir, cannot reliably OHKO it. Its Technician Shadow Sneak and Ghost typing prevents even some slower threats from using priority to take it out, as it's even able to OHKO Azumarill after Z-Belly Drum and is immune to Extreme Speed. This is all without even including the unpredictability of the threats of Choice Scarf Marshadow being an incredible revenge killer, though lacking in power, and the versatility of Life Orb sets. All in combination, Marshadow outright unfairly invalidates types and playstyles by being impossible to reasonably check.

Being impossible to reliably defensively check and almost impossible to revenge kill reliably makes Marshadow the single most destructive Pokemon in this format. As a result, the council has voted with unanimous consent and only one abstention to quickban it from Monotype.

Tagging The Immortal to implement. Thank you!
 
I have a question, and I'd like some feedback. However, please don't immediately dismiss this simply with a claim of "it's nonstandard" or "it compromises the standard defensive core" without any solid explanation.

I've been experimenting with a nonstandard offensive Normal team. It includes a couple gimmicky sets, but for some reason, I've found it to work quite well. I will say that my ladder ranking isn't super high, but I have won unranked matches with skilled friends.

The team features no Chansey, with Porygon2 instead being a mixed wall (max SpD and Def). However, even Porygon2 runs Charge Beam so it can act as a semi-setup sweeper. I know it's not standard, I know it's borderline unviable, but it works. For some reason. The team also has Guts Swellow (which I may replace with Scarf Staraptor), but my main question involves the viability of the team as a whole involving no Chansey.

The remainder of the team is Mega Lopunny, Z-Conversion PorygonZ, Smeargle, and Ditto.

I know this may not be the place for a full RMT, so I'm not posting the team in full, I'm just asking:

Does this team seem viable?
 
I have a question, and I'd like some feedback. However, please don't immediately dismiss this simply with a claim of "it's nonstandard" or "it compromises the standard defensive core" without any solid explanation.

I've been experimenting with a nonstandard offensive Normal team. It includes a couple gimmicky sets, but for some reason, I've found it to work quite well. I will say that my ladder ranking isn't super high, but I have won unranked matches with skilled friends.

The team features no Chansey, with Porygon2 instead being a mixed wall (max SpD and Def). However, even Porygon2 runs Charge Beam so it can act as a semi-setup sweeper. I know it's not standard, I know it's borderline unviable, but it works. For some reason. The team also has Guts Swellow (which I may replace with Scarf Staraptor), but my main question involves the viability of the team as a whole involving no Chansey.

The remainder of the team is Mega Lopunny, Z-Conversion PorygonZ, Smeargle, and Ditto.

I know this may not be the place for a full RMT, so I'm not posting the team in full, I'm just asking:

Does this team seem viable?
Not sure if this is the right place, but you should post your complete sets of you really want us to evaluate your team.
 

roman

i could be ur supermodel
is a Tiering Contributor
I have a question, and I'd like some feedback. However, please don't immediately dismiss this simply with a claim of "it's nonstandard" or "it compromises the standard defensive core" without any solid explanation.

I've been experimenting with a nonstandard offensive Normal team. It includes a couple gimmicky sets, but for some reason, I've found it to work quite well. I will say that my ladder ranking isn't super high, but I have won unranked matches with skilled friends.

The team features no Chansey, with Porygon2 instead being a mixed wall (max SpD and Def). However, even Porygon2 runs Charge Beam so it can act as a semi-setup sweeper. I know it's not standard, I know it's borderline unviable, but it works. For some reason. The team also has Guts Swellow (which I may replace with Scarf Staraptor), but my main question involves the viability of the team as a whole involving no Chansey.

The remainder of the team is Mega Lopunny, Z-Conversion PorygonZ, Smeargle, and Ditto.

I know this may not be the place for a full RMT, so I'm not posting the team in full, I'm just asking:

Does this team seem viable?
hi!

for starters, i would definitely make p2 max Def max Hp since chansey pretty much covers every special threat, there's just no need for spdef p2. if you aren't worried about viability and want to keep your sets i would make p2 boltbeam hp fire dl recover (with charge beam), standard chansey with counter over toxic, and diggersby over pz since you already have a pseudo boltbeam sweeper in p2 and you could really use the wallbreaking power that the rest of your team seems to lack. i could probably help more if you edited a pastebin into your post and you could probably get even more help in the monotype room on ps!.

overall it seems inferior to standard evio core + 3 attackers but i'm sure you could find some viability in this build :] gl!
 
hi!

for starters, i would definitely make p2 max Def max Hp since chansey pretty much covers every special threat, there's just no need for spdef p2. if you aren't worried about viability and want to keep your sets i would make p2 boltbeam hp fire dl recover (with charge beam), standard chansey with counter over toxic, and diggersby over pz since you already have a pseudo boltbeam sweeper in p2 and you could really use the wallbreaking power that the rest of your team seems to lack. i could probably help more if you edited a pastebin into your post and you could probably get even more help in the monotype room on ps!.

overall it seems inferior to standard evio core + 3 attackers but i'm sure you could find some viability in this build :] gl!
I haven't really felt the need for additional wallbreaking power because PZ is very powerful once Z-Converted, and Guts Swellow is directly comparable to Kyurem-B in power (exact same Attack stat; Facade is a 140BP STAB attack). Add that to the fact that non-statusing walls can't really do much to Porygon2, and I haven't really felt like the team needs more raw power.

I have tried Chansey in the past, I just don't like it as much. I seem to have a severe case of six-slot syndrome with this team because I like the four-attacker core and feel the need to remove Smeargle or Ditto if I need to make any changes (and I don't want to remove those two either because they're my speed control).

Maybe I'll try the eviolite core again soon, who knows. I may just rebuild the team from scratch and compare the two versions.

I am thinking that replacing Smeargle with Chansey could be okay. I don't want to remove Ditto.
 
guts is actually 1.5x and kyub can also abuse LO, mold breaker, insane bulk and a superior movepool. also, you should be comparing this to diggersby who is basically hitting much harder with huge power along with CB or SD and can also abuse priority and better coverage. swellow is just outclassed as a wallbreaker as 83 atk + guts is still pretty underwhelming since it also has to deal with the sr weakness, low bulk, burn chip, no item and pretty shitty coverage and brave bird recoil (which means it's getting like 1 maybe 2 kills per game). also yeah pz is alright but imo normalium z is a bit gimmicky because it already has to eat a hit to setup and is still too slow to outpace a good number of scarfers. if i were you i'd honestly either make it HO or maybe try defogless normal which again is probably inferior to standard normal.
Did Guts get nerfed? It used to be 2x, if I recall correctly.

In that case, I may use Digger instead of Swellow and leave it at that. The team already is HO; I'm just trying to optimize it. Additionally, Smeargle serves as speed control with Sticky Web.
 

Cresselia92

formerly Darklatias92
Aggronite has been released.

However, I'm not sure how useful it would be. Steel has many better options to use (unless you wanna try Steel stall or something?), while Rock, which may actually have benefited from it, can't use it in this metagame due to the new rule…

When using a Mega Evolution that changes its typing, the Mega Evolution must retain the original typing of the team. In practice, this means is that you can use Mega Gyarados on a Mono-Water team, but you may not use it on a Mono-Flying team (because Mega Gyarados isn't a Flying type) or a Mono-Dark team (because regular Gyarados isn't a Dark type. Similarly, Mega Aggron can only be used on Mono-Steel, despite its base form being allowed on Mono-Rock teams.
Yeah… kinda unfortunate for the metallic dino.
 
Aggronite has been released.

However, I'm not sure how useful it would be. Steel has many better options to use (unless you wanna try Steel stall or something?), while Rock, which may actually have benefited from it, can't use it in this metagame due to the new rule…



Yeah… kinda unfortunate for the metallic dino.
Actually, I have a Trick Room Steel team I really like, and it used to feature Mega Steelix as a defensive wall and TR sweeper. I've been wondering for a while now if Mega Aggron would fit well in that slot due to somewhat better Attack (I think), more defensive utility with Filter, and a lack of a Water weakness which would make three water weaknesses on the team (the other two being Excadrill and Heatran) while still having TR-capable speed.

I feel like it might be worth a try.
 

Cresselia92

formerly Darklatias92
Well, Fairy has lost an immunity to Poison with Magearna's departure, but has gained a neutrality in the form of Mega Diancie, which can punish Poison-types with Earth Power and with its impressive offenses and speed. The only downside is that it would have an even worse matchup against Steel, but things like Tapu Koko and Azumarill can help alleviate this matchup somewhat.

Regarding the other released Megas, Mega Altaria is going to be a huge asset for the Dragon vs. Dragon matchups, and with Magearna gone it has one less nuisance. It is still walled by other Steel-types, though, namely Celesteela, but with appropriate coverage in Fire Blast / Earthquake and together with partners, like Garchomp, it should be able to handle that specific type.

I'm not sure how truly useful Mega Ampharos could be, even if an Electric Terrain-boosted attack coming from 165 Special Attack and with the ability to bypass stuff like Lightning Rod sounds scary. Sure, Xurkitree can pull off a similar thing with 173 Special Attack and has better Speed at 83 (compared to Mega Ampharos's 45), but the guardian of the lighthouse has actual bulk and a bigger set of resistances, so it could have some uses in more balance-based teams.

Mega Latias should be somewhat interesting for Dragon, even though it will most likely end up having heavy competition with Mega Altaria for the Mega slot, since the latter is extremely useful for mirror matches. Someone could try Reflect Type for some funny shenanigans against specific types, but I'm not really sure how good this idea would be in practice.

...And then there is Mega Latios, I guess? Too bad that he looks he will be as unviable as usual, so... *shrugs*
 
While I did not think Magearna was broken, the bright side of this ban is that the metagame is now much more diverse. Fairy gained a very very solid Pokemon, however. One that shouldn't be overlooked.


With 160/160 offenses and a crucial Speed tier, Mega Diancie's sweeping potential is no joke. It also has access to Magic Bounce, shielding not only itself but the entire team from status moves. Furthermore, Mega Diancie gets access to a wide variety of moves, including Diamond Storm which has a 50% chance to double your defense. Not only this, but it gains access to Ground coverage which limits its counters. It has access to perfect team support on Fairy, with Tapu Bulu being able to take on the Water, Ground, and Grass moves that trouble Diancie. Lastly, Mega Diancie has access to Calm Mind and/or Rock Polish for setup, as well as Stealth Rock, which benefits Fairy heavily as it's now Fairy's new best offensive hazard setter. It's overall coverage aids Fairy heavily in the Fire matchup, yet also provides a consistent wincon in the Flying matchup as well. On an unrelated note, Mega Diancie would have appreciated Magearna as a partner heavily forming a solid offensive core that can pressure a large amount of types, but Magearna's recent ban prevents that. Mega Diancie does have its very clear flaws, though, and it becomes evident that there's a lot of things holding it back from truly becoming a dominant force in the metagame.

Mega Diancie boasts one of the worst defensive typings in the game in Rock and Fairy, giving it a crippling 4x weakness to the common Steel, as well as weaknesses to Ground, Water, and Grass, the former two being very common moves. This, combined with its average at best bulk and its inability to outpace Choice Scarf users leaves it very weak to revenge killers. It's offensive coverage is fairly lackluster as well, as Rock/Fairy is a pretty bad typing. It's safe to say nearly every type has an a quality check for Mega Diancie via faster Choice Scarf users that can exploit its numerous weaknesses, mainly Steel.

That's just the impact I can see Mega Diancie having in the metagame. Let me know what you think.
 
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While I did not think Magearna was broken, the bright side of this ban is that the metagame is now much more diverse. Fairy gained a very very solid Pokemon, however. One that shouldn't be overlooked.


With 160/160 offenses and a crucial Speed tier, Mega Diancie's sweeping potential is no joke. It also has access to Magic Bounce, shielding not only itself but the entire team from status moves. Furthermore, Mega Diancie gets access to a wide variety of moves, including Diamond Storm which has a 50% chance to double your defense. Not only this, but it gains access to Ground coverage which limits its counters. It has access to perfect team support on Fairy, with Tapu Bulu being able to take on the Water, Ground, and Grass moves that trouble Diancie. Lastly, Mega Diancie has access to Calm Mind and/or Rock Polish for setup, as well as Stealth Rock, which benefits Fairy heavily as it's now Fairy's new best offensive hazard setter. It's overall coverage aids Fairy heavily in the Fire matchup, yet also provides a consistent wincon in the Flying matchup as well. On an unrelated note, Mega Diancie would have appreciated Magearna as a partner heavily forming a solid offensive core that can pressure a large amount of types, but Magearna's recent ban prevents that. Mega Diancie does have its very clear flaws, though, and it becomes evident that there's a lot of things holding it back from truly becoming a dominant force in the metagame.

Mega Diancie boasts one of the worst defensive typings in the game in Rock and Fairy, giving it a crippling 4x weakness to the common Steel, as well as weaknesses to Ground, Water, and Grass, the former two being very common moves. This, combined with its average at best bulk and its inability to outpace Choice Scarf users leaves it very weak to revenge killers. It's offensive coverage is fairly lackluster as well, as Rock/Fairy is a pretty bad typing. It's safe to say nearly every type has an a quality check for Mega Diancie via faster Choice Scarf users that can exploit its numerous weaknesses, mainly Steel.

That's just the impact I can see Mega Diancie having in the metagame. Let me know what you think.
Let me just say something about its bulk: it has none. Those 110 defenses may surprise you, but 50 hp leaves it piss poor to anything that isn't a resisted hit. Even something like an Energy Ball from Chandelure will leave it with almost no HP or knock it out completley. Due to this, it isn't switching in on anything besides like, Mega Sableye and Skarmory not carrying Iron head.

I don't know why people are saying Mega Diancie is broken. Without Magearna, Fairy is so much easier to handle because it now only has Fairy to take poison attacks. In my eyes Mega Diancie is just what Rock needed and a lackluster replacement for Magearna.
 
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