Data State of the Game (07/04/14)

[Texas Cloverleaf]

State of the Game - April 2014

Hi there! Due to some changes to the structure of power in ASB, we are opening up a SotG thread. Newer members will probably not have encountered these; before the feedback thread was created, SotGs were the easiest way to raise and discuss any concerns in ASB. This thread will act in a similar manner to all other SotGs.

As per usual we will be using this thread to make major announcements, as well as send out some general questions and topics of dicussion to the community.

Announcements

Deck Knight's change in role in ASB

Deck Knight has decided to "release the kraken" as far as his leadership is concerned. He simply does not have the time or the ability to run ASB to the level he has; and as such, will be leaving the major control of ASB to the moderation team. That is not to say he is leaving ASB, in fact, he will still be around in a considerably reduced capacity. He will remain as the owner/creator of ASB and will have the effective role of consultant. Players may still be able to consult him for Word of God, but not for general questions; more or less for policies that may not go over well. Furthermore, he is forfeiting all policy powers to the moderation team, except for the power to possibly veto changes that may occur to ASB that would drastically alter the game (Removing Size Class and Weight Class, for example). At this point, the moderation staff is the de facto head of ASB and will handle all responsibilities. Maintenance of the moderation team will be conducted by the standing moderation staff from this point forward.


Positions of power in ASB

Owner: Deck Knight
Moderators: Dogfish44 (Referee/RP), Its_A_Random (Data & Registration), MK Ultra (IRC), Texas Cloverleaf (Policy)
Project Moderators: Elevator Music, Engineer Pikachu, Frosty, Objection, Pwnemon, zarator

ASB Council: Birkal, Dogfish44, Its_A_Random, Pwnemon, Rediamond, Texas Cloverleaf, zarator
Gym Committee: MK Ultra, Pwnemon, Texas Cloverleaf
Roleplay Committee: Engineer Pikachu, Frosty, Rediamond

NDA Editors: akela, Deck Knight, Dogfish44, Its_A_Random, LouisCyphre, Objection, Pwnemon (Owner), Texas Cloverleaf

Approvers (Excludes those inactive): akela (Head), Deck Knight, Dogfish44, Elevator Music, Engineer Pikachu, Its_A_Random (Head), Objection, Pwnemon, rickheg, Texas Cloverleaf


Changes to TLR Leadership

With Deck Knight's reduction in roles, he has also forfeited leadership of The Legend Run roleplay. We have decided that the TLR Roleplay will now be co-lead by Dogfish44 and Its_A_Random. Dogfish44 has been assisting with getting new referees into the roleplay and we currently have three new referees. Furthermore, he has designed the latest addition to the TLR family, making sure there is more than one Training difficulty TLR in the roleplay. Its_A_Random is the most experienced head when it comes to the roleplay and has an extensive knowledge in TLR design through his multi-dungeon creation of Ruined Eden, as well as countless hours of experience in refereeing a TLR. These two will help make TLR as enjoyable as possible, and make sure that those who catch the legends deserve them as the trophies they were intended to be. We are confident that these two will do an excellent job with the additional responsibilities.


Introducing new Project Moderators

The ASB Moderation team has recently decided to install two new Project Moderators: Frosty and Pwnemon. Frosty was around in the first few months of the game before a long hiatus. Since then, Frosty has been a positive influence on the game and a smart policy maker that has seen him serve two terms on the ASB Council. He has also amassed seven ASB Gym badges, which more than proves his skill in the game. Frosty has also proven himself a capable member of the Roleplay committee. Pwnemon has been playing since early 2012 and has proven himself to be a solid competitor, winning the ASB Team Tournament alongside smashlloyd20 and jas61292. He has also been a solid influence in ASB policy, serving the ASB council since May 2013, as well as being a positive influence on the Gym Committee. The additions of these two increase our Project Moderator base to six members. Like the others, they will be able to edit/lock/delete, but they will not be able to infract. We are confident that these two will do an excellent job with their additional responsibilities.


The Return of the ASB Referee Training Program

basically the same as before k?

Essentially this initiative early on in ASB as a way to get new users into reffing in a painless manner. As before, it will partner new users wishing to ref with an experienced referee who will become a tutor referee. Tutors will view and approve all reffings done by their tutees, assisting them on any problems they may have.

This will be run by the approval heads, akela and Its_A_Random, with more information to come in the coming days.


Questions for the Community

How much of a role does HP play for a Pokemon? Additionally, how much of a role does Weight Class play for a Pokemon?

Snorlax and Pyroak are examples of Pokemon that can use both statistics effectively. Are these two Pokemon inherently better because of their high HP stats and a good Weight Class to abuse, or are they just overhyped?

As well, is the HP stat itself inherently flawed? What measures, if any, should be taken to alter it?


(Frosty) Are you having fun in ASB? Why or why not?

Are you enjoying ASB? Is there anything that could be done to make it more fun?


(Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

Is ASB balanced? Is the game very unbalanced? Is there anything that you would change that would improve ASB?


What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

Is there anything regarding the registration process that could be improved? Anything else regarding the system that could be better?


We welcome all other comments on the current State of the Game at this time.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

On registration: my personal experience was that it took me longer than it took others. My profile was left unapproved for a day or two, and then I got approved after I alerted a mod to my profile's presence. However, I've been playing just fine since then.

One other thing is that some refs like to take their sweet time in reffing. For instance, one of my battles has been going on for about two months now, the last time I checked.

Edit: it's actually only about a month and a half. That's still a long time.

 

[youngjake93]

I have openly expressed my concerns about the game from the perspective of a new player since I started. The game is fun, has a solid support infrastructure and can be very engaging at times which is all you really need in a game and more.
However, reffing being viewed as an annoyance, losing being rewarded just about as well as winning(and long battles being rewarded less than short ones) and serious time commitments being required for a simple battle are all concerning to any new player that isn't just used to the way things have always been.

Registering and getting started wasn't too complicated, but I learned fast by using IRC and reading a lot. I'm not sure how if I would be interested in ASB if I couldn't ask everything on IRC. Some new players don't use IRC to ask for help and you can see the result of some attempts to register that didn't quite work out at first.

 

[Maxim]

How much of a role does HP play for a Pokemon? Additionally, how much of a role does Weight Class play for a Pokemon?

I think both of these stats play heavily into a Pokemon's usability, but they aren't the end all be all stats. Here's some thoughts on both.

HP:
Snorlax is a great Pokemon because of his HP, but also because of his movepool. However, if you compare it to, say, Blissey, nobody would really say Blissey is a top tier Pokemon (it's certainly solid in the right circumstances though) because it's defense is abysmal. Deck Knight in the Feedback thread did note a new hp system he was thinking about that I think warrants at least some discussion in said thread. Personally though, I think such a small reduction isn't going to really change all that much about what's good and what isn't. Snorlax loses 8 max hp? Big whoop.

Weight:
This here is really something I'd like to get addressed. Pokemon like my hated nemesis Pyroak can sometimes get a little too powerful thanks to this mechanic, but others actually become weaker. The best example I can think of is Staraptor, who would be a great Normal/Flying type, but thanks to only having a Weight Class of 2, it's most powerful move, Brave Bird, is really weak compared to others. The worst part for Staraptor is that the only way to really fix this is to grab a Sharp Beak (which only adds 4 flat damage) or an Iron Ball (which makes it lose Ground Immunity and makes it really slow). I think if there's anything in this game that's kinda off right now, it's Weight Class and Weight Based moves.

(Frosty) Are you having fun in ASB? Why or why not?

Believe me, I wouldn't still be here if I wasn't having fun. Between raids, Adventure Battles, tournaments, and a whole host of other things, there's lots to do here. That being said though, I would like it if there was a way to make normal battles better. Predominately, ASB battles are either standard battles just done for money and counters, or big complex arenas, some of which are received well, others...not so much. Really, I'd like to see some way to freshen up your standard battle, such as giving out some UC for a successful arena (not advocating this, just throwing the idea out there).

(Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

ASB is a very well balanced game. It takes a lot of skill to make a game where even something like a Mothim has a chance against a Mewtwo. There are a few threats that I think are a little too good (*CoughcoughSableyeandPyroakcoughcough*). Overall though I think the game is nice and balanced. Really I think we just need to tweak a few Weight mechanics without affecting perfectly fine Pokemon overmuch (such as Aggron).

What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

I can't say too much about the new system. I felt like the old Registration Tower was a little clearer on certain points than the new system, especially since it had most of what you needed right there. The new system, even things like the Players Handbook and such, seems a bit scattered. One mechanic might be in the Beginner's Handbook, another might be in the Handbook, and another might even be in the NDA (which btw seems to be confusing a lot of new players due to being outside the forum. Even just a thread with the link would be really helpful here imo).

I have openly expressed my concerns about the game from the perspective of a new player since I started. The game is fun, has a solid support infrastructure and can be very engaging at times which is all you really need in a game and more.
However, reffing being viewed as an annoyance, losing being rewarded just about as well as winning(and long battles being rewarded less than short ones) and serious time commitments being required for a simple battle are all concerning to any new player that isn't just used to the way things have always been.

Registering and getting started wasn't too complicated, but I learned fast by using IRC and reading a lot. I'm not sure how if I would be interested in ASB if I couldn't ask everything on IRC. Some new players don't use IRC to ask for help and you can see the result of some attempts to register that didn't quite work out at first.

I will agree that we might need some kinda incentive to get referees more active (myself included). I'm sorta worried that we can't really do much to it though, since increased UC might unbalance the veterans vs. newbie balance we have here. Notably, TLRs need some major reworking, since reffing what is effectively a long string of Triples in a consistent fashion has been...kinda difficult in my experience. Personally, I think losing and winning being rewarded isn't that much of an issue, because if you didn't reward losers that much (say you cut out their MC), then those who could consistently win would dominate everyone else. Again, I think we just need a way to liven up battles. Time commitments sadly aren't anything we can really fix unless reffing becomes faster. I believe Seven Deadly Sins tried twice to make a calculator, maybe we could do something with that?

That's all I really have for now.

 

[starwarsfan]

One thing I'd like to see happen is an update of various OPs. For newer players (I had this problem myself), it can be confusing when, say, the Battle Tower OP and Handbook say two different things about rewards.

Just for reference, the following documents need complete revamps (Note that these are only "official" documents, so for example the ops of roleplay threads are not included):
Prize Claiming Thread OP
Battle Tower OP
Role Playing Approval Center OP
Referee Resource Thread OP
ASB Constitution (Link is the Feedback Thread MK II, which has the Constitution in the OP.)

Documents that need slight updates or minor changes:
Trading Thread OP (Old Approver List) Fixed
Example Profile (I'd love to put full profiles, not just hide tags, as well as a more meaty OP, in this.) Half fixed, profile skeleton inputted
How to join / re-join ASB (Grammar) Sure
Registration and Prize Claiming (Grammar) What?
ASB Leadership Team (Reflect the leadership changes made itt) done

Note that I am assuming that the Beginner's Guide, NDA, and Handbook are all accurate.

I will be happy to assist with revamping any of these.

 

[Ute]

(Frosty) Are you having fun in ASB? Why or why not?

I adore ASB, there's a lot of appeal to being able to run all abilities and moves simultaneously as well as playing in arenas that look like they could have been inspired by Other Metagames. The small details are very nice as well such as Signature Items, Pursuit, Spinda, and all kinds of other mechanics.

I just have fun making the approval staff question my choices while trying to figure out how and what I want to raise next.

What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

As starwarsfan outlined, there are many outdated threads that conflict with existing threads that need to be changed.

One thing in particular that I see from new users is not knowing the prices for certain mons, perhaps making this and some other information (eg Natures) more apparent in the Beginner's Guide would be helpful. Also the amount of pinned threads is a bit much, perhaps a subforum for Tournaments would lessen this crowding to make the information new players need more obvious.

How much of a role does HP play for a Pokemon? Additionally, how much of a role does Weight Class play for a Pokemon?

I don't have the experience to comment on HP on the whole, but as far as I can tell Weight Class is only a problem on Pyroak

(Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

I'm going to agree with Maxim and youngjake93 that we are in need of some change to improve Battle Tower matches. I generally go for the larger, more interesting matches and I've been stuck with full slots for a month because of this. Because that can happen so easily short matches (particularly Flashies) in simple Arenas (most notoriously the ASB Arena) have become the norm since they are more worthwhile from a counter standpoint. There are a number of ways to try to help these issues such as adding a fourth slot exclusively for these large scale battles or have an Arena Showcase separate from the Arena Compendium.

I personally like the idea of an Arena Showcase to display a variety of well received arenas of varying complexity to make well designed Arenas better known (rather than trying to look through the mess that is the Arena Compendium) and hopefully encourage players to have greater variety in their Arenas rather than an overflow of ASB Arena matches on the Battle Tower.

EDIT: I want to clarify that I was referring to Large (6v6 and up) matches being much more time consuming, not refs taking too long (good reffing takes time unless you are extremely experienced such as Akela), creating an environment where small matches in the ASB arena have become the rule. I was proposing an attempt to make larger matches in more interesting arenas not a waste of a slot.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

Let's give another round:

How much of a role does HP play for a Pokemon? Additionally, how much of a role does Weight Class play for a Pokemon?

HP seems to me to be a lot more powerful than other stats. But I am relatively new, so I'm not sure how much I can really sat about this.

(Frosty) Are you having fun in ASB? Why or why not?

I'm having fun! However when you can't take on any matches because you've been roped/roped yourself into three bigger ones already and the refs either just make DQ or go past it, it can be very aggravating.

(Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

There are a lot of Pokémon that are heavily favored in the current state of the game due to a combination of stats, typing and large movepools. The two main example I can think of are Gallade and Pyroak. In a particular match where I reffed a Pyroak, it was able to deal a lot of damage through multiple negative modifiers while adding two different DPA effects on its opponent with high defenses. It is definitely a very broken Pokémon that I need to get ASAP.

What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

I already talked about this above, but I can also add that it wasn't very clear how I was supposed to round certain values (up or down?). In fact, a lot of information in regard to battles is either absent or very hard to find, and it's almost always just easier to ask on IRC. Not that IRC is bad, it's just that this can be very frustrating and some people have not learned to use IRC when they join ASB (like me).

Edit: One last thing is that it's not very clear to new players that big matches take much longer than smaller ones. And some new players may not be very keen on the ideas of flash matches. And since most sources about ASB say nothing about the Battle Pike, Battle Hall and Raids, most new players won't find out about them until they could have already been well into at least one of them. This can be cry discouraging when they find that many older players have very strong mons - even ones that they obtained only a relatively little while ago - but the newer ones have very little progress to speak of for themselves.

 

[tavok]

- How much of a role does HP play for a Pokemon? Additionally, how much of a role does Weight Class play for a Pokemon?

Well, to tell the truth, I have never seen HP as being an incredibly big problem. Most of the time I fight with or against a big HP mon, or even ref a battle with one involved, they don't always win: sure, it is one big advantage, but it doesn't necessarily break a Pokémon. While a small reduction would be ok, I don't think a big nerf to the HP bulky mons is a step in the right direction. The best idea probably changing the HP values that each rank represents (maybe 90 -> 95 -> 100 -> 105 -> 110 -> etc.)

Weight class, however, IS a big issue. This is mostly because of the way Weight moves are calculated. Things like the always mentioned 15 BAP Flare Blitz from Pyroak, 18 BAP Giga Impacts from Snorlax, the 18 BAP Double-Edge from a Mega-Aggron that I'm currently using: they give these mons way too much power, and many others that have access to these moves can't use them effectively because of their low weight.

I propose that we take a look at how weight moves are calculated, in a way that they are still stronger coming from heavier mons, but that the difference isn't as high as it is right now. Something like (11 - Weight Class /3) Round up for Double-Edge already lowers the above 18 BAP Double-Edge from Mega-Aggron to a slightly more reasonable 15 BAP: still strong, but not as much. This could obviously have some changes, but it's just to give a basic idea.

I have also noticed that weight moves tend to have a higher BAP - EN ratio, mostly because of the "round up" that appears in the BAP, but not in the EN. Take a look at this too, maybe?

- Frosty) Are you having fun in ASB? Why or why not?

HELL YES. ASB is probably my favorite way to pass the time right now (regarding internet, computer, and things like that). While there are some things that can be frustrating at times, mainly people going over DQ or behaving in a, let's say, "rude" or "dumb" way, it is overall quite enjoyable.

- (Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

Sure, it could use some tweaking, but it is quite good as it is. One of my main issues is with substitutions, since things like this or this happening seems quite dumb to me.

- What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

While I found registering and getting the hang of ASB quite easy, I recognize that there are a lot of things that could make it even easier. swf already mentioned A LOT of stuff that needs changes that I think a lot of people have noticed. This, in my opinion, should be a priority, since there is a lot of contradictory and outdated information.

Making sure the handbook has all the rules so they aren't dispersed and adding a lot of obscure ruling that already have an answer and that are constantly asked in IRC to it, and making the link to the NDA and IRC (yes, the mibbit link, even if most of you don't like it. I would have never gone into IRC if it had not been because of this, since I don't have a client and would have never bothered to download one) easier to find, and other minor stuff I don't quite remember could help most of the people trying to get into ASB.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Just saying the handbook does, and always has, had all relevant rulings regarding ASB. That was always the intent of such a document.

 

[starwarsfan]

I'm aware it does; the question is whether new people do. What is the point of having all those other documents if they aren't relevant at all?

imo either they should be revamped or removed. (Not the threads, just the OPs.)

 

[akela]

ASB is a drastic improvement over what it once was. I remember waiting 2 weeks waiting to be approved after registering, and one of those weeks was me pestering approvers on IRC to approve. Yet some people are upset about waiting 1-2 days for an approval? I guess we can go back to the way it was where the prize claim was approved no more than once/week and profiles only once every 2 weeks.

If Newbies and potential newbies won't ask questions, even in the question thread where you are supposed to ask questions, how can we answer them? How can we answer the unasked question?

The issue with occupied battle slots seems to stem more from referees having lives outside of ASB and the battlers being upset with that. Remember, as a referee, I am an exception, not the rule.

 

[youngjake93]

ASB is a drastic improvement over what it once was. I remember waiting 2 weeks waiting to be approved after registering, and one of those weeks was me pestering approvers on IRC to approve. Yet some people are upset about waiting 1-2 days for an approval? I guess we can go back to the way it was where the prize claim was approved no more than once/week and profiles only once every 2 weeks.

If Newbies and potential newbies won't ask questions, even in the question thread where you are supposed to ask questions, how can we answer them? How can we answer the unasked question?

The issue with occupied battle slots seems to stem more from referees having lives outside of ASB and the battlers being upset with that. Remember, as a referee, I am an exception, not the rule.

"It's better than it was before" is never a reason to not improve the situation. That's like saying "why the hell would you invent a car, we already have a horse and buggy? MAYBE WE SHOULD FORCE EVERYONE TO GO BACK TO WALKING EVERYWHERE SO YOU LEARN TO APPRECIATE YOUR HORSE AND BUGGY??"

Btw I do agree that the battle slot issue is moreso a matter of people accepting the 3 battles and then refs/opponents getting busy/johning. It stems from ASB battles taking days/weeks rather than under an hour like most games. Flash matches rarely have such an issue because they are done and over with before someone's real life gets in the way of activity.

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Its called diminishing marginal returns, the approval situation has been improved to a level where it is consistent and within an acceptable time frame. Improving it further from this point expends more effort for fewer returns on an exponential scale. In a perfect world approvals would happen instantaneously but unfortunately that isn't the case and people have other responsibilities that are often better expenditures of effort.

 

[Psyco_Josho]

Alright, I can understand how registering has improved dramatically. I may have actually been waiting three days, but the part I remember is that I thought that other people were being approved faster than me, and it was really bothering me.

 

[ZhengTann]

Would like to reply to this:

(Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

I recall an IRC conversation where Pwne has expressed that ASB is pretty much a stable metagame, and I agree. However, we like to tinker with our metagame a lot, sometimes not necessarily for the sake of game balance (the Water Stone thread in policy is, forgive me, one example of said tinkering). While I do personally like it when it does not alter balance but simply brings variability to the metagame, there have been concerns that boils down to two/three words, "Buff/Nerf Culture".

So if possible, I'd like to propose a discussion on how does the community define game balance in general, and how do we set the policy when it comes to making decisions and votes that would potentially alter the state of the whole metagame (or just comes down to buffing/nerfing in general). I've done a little reading up on this, based on Smogon's own articles, and some thought experiments about ground rules that were observed in developers of another turn-based game, but I'd like to see the response to it first before I go wall-of-text mode. Thank you.

 

[AWailOfATail]

What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

Well, I'm a newer member, so might as well.
I thought the registration system was a mix of straightforward and not straightforward. I found the Code for the profile and plugged in my info, but then I couldn't find other stuff, like how many CC we get to start with to purchase Pokemon. Thankfully, IRC was really helpful and sorted me out (while promoting Pyroak hype). But if someone's too nervous to go on IRC, then yeah, it'll be pretty hard because iirc, the information's not all in one place, or at least not obvious. It wasn't that it was complex, just hard to find (and comprehend for parts of it).

 

[Avnomke]

How much of a role does HP play for a Pokemon? Additionally, how much of a role does Weight Class play for a Pokemon?

It's definitely an important part of a pokemon, but not metagame-defining. The main problem is pokemon with good hp combined with a great movepool, which are going to be good no matter what since movepool is the #1 defining characteristic of pokemon in ASB. However, the sheer power of weight-based moves is waaay too high. We need to lower the BAP or just make recoil moves have flat BAP or something. Aggron has 24 BAP (after STAB and Heavy Metal) recoilless Head Smashes (22 when Mega), Pyroak has 18 BAP (after STAB) recoilless Wood Hammers and Flare Blitzes, and Snorlax has 21 BAP (after STAB) Giga Impacts and 19 (After STAB) BAP Double-Edges. That's just absurd.

(Frosty) Are you having fun in ASB? Why or why not?

Yes! I'm excited for when I get strongmons so I can start challenging gyms and TLRs and stuff.

(Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

Basically balanced, IMO. ASB is far more balanced than normal pokemon. We need to fix weight-based moves though.

What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

It's easy enough, the only problem I had was that the 6 CC bit is well-tucked away and not in the beginner's guide. Also the standard format is ugly, but that's personal preference more than anything else.

Other notes:
Agreeing with SWF about updating OPs.
And yeah, I think we should have an extra battle slot for big things (>10 mons/side or >4 battlers, maybe?), and also up brawl pay (I get 8 UC for reffing a 2v2v2 melee, while a 3v3 gives 10? Also a 4v4 brawl gives 10, while 4v4 singles gives 15, and most people seem to prefer reffing a 2v2 singles than a 2v2 doubles...).

 

[Texas Cloverleaf]

Brawl pay is intentionally kept low due a long standing policy decision to discourage brawls from being commonplace.

And when I say long standing, I mean looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong standing.

 

[starwarsfan]

Also echoing people about starting CC, I had to ask the amount of starting CC on IRC when I signed up.

Actually there isn't any part in the Beginner's Guide about how to join at all... like, where to post a profile, what it should look like, etc... the only thing is "Once you've registered your Pokemon in the Registration Tower" which is a little old and in the section titled "Go Fight!".

 

[Ute]

So if possible, I'd like to propose a discussion on how does the community define game balance in general, and how do we set the policy when it comes to making decisions and votes that would potentially alter the state of the whole metagame (or just comes down to buffing/nerfing in general).

I think this probably the best course of action. My personal opinion on the matter is that for the most part we have very well balanced battle mechanics where everything (except Wobbuffet) has some niche role it can fill. There may be a few mons that might be too good (Pyroak as mentioned before and Kecleon for the ability to eat up subs come to mind for me), but for the most part there are no true dead-weights and very few that are almost always at an advantage.

As I've said before Flash matches are the most counter efficient way to battle, and (relatively speaking) we see very few Battle Tower matches away from the ASB Arena. Flashies being efficient can't be helped, but taking any long term matches will essentially deny you the counters you could have gotten through taking smaller battles. It is my belief that some measures should be taken to encourage more variety in Tower matches, in both format and Arena.
Part of the problem is that the Arena Compendium is just a list of arenas with no quality control making it hard to dig through and find the well designed or once popular arenas among many half finished ones. This is why I suggested a separate Arena Showcase earlier to show off some of the more fun and unique arenas like Unown Soup, Ref's Mind, or even just alternatives to the ASB Arena. It would not be a replacement for the Compendium as a place for users to post their creations, but a list of the best arenas that ASB has to offer.
As for encouraging more variety in format, this is where other users would have better ideas than me. I suggested a fourth slot reserved exclusively for battles that are a real time investment, but this would need a lot of codification and may be more effort than it's worth.

In short my opinion on how game balance should be is that the battle mechanics need some minor tweaking to keep one or two Pokemon in check but otherwise allow for almost anything to be usable, which is fantastic. My biggest concern is that the matches in the Tower are barely distinguishable from each other and we as a community should try to create an environment that encourages greater variety in battles (beyond which pokemon are fighting) in both new and already established ways.

 

[Mulan15262]

I agree with Ute. There are so many flashes, and other 1v1 singles and 2v2 doubles matches. I think we should go with Ute's idea and allow players a fourth match, but it would have to be a large match. I think 12 pokemon total (plus 2 per extra participant beyond the normal 2, so 6v6+, 5v5v5+, 4v4v4v4+, and so on) for size, but that could be argued.

Also, a 2v2v2 and 3v3 give the same pay, and brawls give the same payment as other match types until the limit is reached. The only problem I see with UC pay is that a 1v1v1 and 1v1 give the same pay.


About registration, I think that we should change the sample profile to one that a newcomer could have (perhaps 4 CC spent on a Riolu and Torchic, with 2 left), as well as the beginner inventory. In how to join ASB, it says that "Once you are done, an approver will eventually look over your profile," but I think it should say "Once you are done, an approver will look over your profile." The word eventually discourages people from joining, in my opinion.

It also says that you start with 6 CC in the Handbook, so I noticed it there.

 

[Frosty]

alrighty...

How much of a role does HP play for a Pokemon? Additionally, how much of a role does Weight Class play for a Pokemon?

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/asb-feedback-game-issues-thread-mk-ii.3483451/page-12 and onwards. Too lazy to say it again.

But I will say two things:
a) Deck's proposal is very interesting and should be analyzed further/implemented
b) Weight is silly as a whole. I don't even know how to start.

(Pwnemon) Is the game basically good as is or does it still require a lot of changes?

Aside from weight and hp, the game doesn't require much changes. If we fix that, the game will be balanced enough to keep it stable somewhat. There is Endeavor and Pain Split, but nothing too concerning.

The "problem" (because it may be not be a problem) is that people will want to change stuff regardless. For reasons other than balance strictly. While that does prevent the game from being stale, I really question the need for said changes. We should focus on trimming the reffing process, registration and the display of data, as well as RPs as a whole and the Gym League. If you create more ways for people to have fun battling you won't have the need to keep changing stuff I think.

What are your thoughts on the registration system of Generation 6? In particular, for newer users joining in Generation 6, did you find the process too complex?

That question is better answered by people that came recently. I didn't so I don't know.

But you can be sure as hell that the whole registration/approving process is MUCH better than before. akela and IAR (among others) are sure doing a marvelous job.

The only suggestion I would give is to put a link to the Beginner's Guide on the "how to join" sticky on the registration forum. So it is easier to find where the profile template is.

(Frosty) Are you having fun in ASB? Why or why not?

As I said to Texas, I think that this question must be made because sometimes I feel that people are overgearing to face something that won't come. After the initial euphoria, I only see people really having fun on Raids and Tournaments. And some on Gyms as well. But I am not sure people have fun on serious matches, as they usually take too long and you, in no time, get to the point where you just want "the slot back"... and the same on RPs for the exact same reasons.

And why don't we have more tourneys? Because it takes way too long (and again the time element is there). Why the Gym League drives away so many people? Because it will take years to get a good set of badges even if you are a great player.

I feel that 99% of the reason why ASB may not be fun or isn't as fun as its potential to some is the time it takes. If we are to tackle something, I believe that would be priority 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 etc.

Maybe if we shared the reffing duties with the players? I mean, the ref has to format the round, add images hp and what not, get the moves, calc the damage, roll RNG, rule stuff, post end-game and flavor. In theory the only things that must be done by the ref are: Roll RNG, Rule Stuff and do Flavor. Everything can be done by the battler.

So my suggestion would be: estimulate (not force yet) the trainer ordering first to post on the same post as the orders the profile (image, hp, en, stats and item) of the pokemon involved in that round. And the trainer ordering last would post the calculations for the moves dones (only the ones he can be sure that will be used...or something like that) and list the rolls that need to be done. The ref would only need to copy and paste that (profiles and calculations) into his reffing, roll the rng, do the proper changes if the rng gets something and post. Maybe that will make reffing a bit easier?

Also, allow trainers to post reffings themselves if there is no RNG to be rolled or ruling to be made. If a pokemon faints A1 by the attack of a faster mon regardless of critical hits, there is no need to wait for the ref to post a result that you already know. Same way if, for example, Lucky Chant is up (let me theorymon I know that doesn't happen >_<) and both players spam attacks with no secondary effects. Again waiting for the ref is useless, as the result will be the same no matter what.

The opposing player would be the control of this, as well as the ref. Maybe that way we can boost, even just a little, the speed of the matches and, because of that, our possibilities of having fun.

2 cents


PS: Also, I will go take a look at the RP OP as requested.

 

[Birkal]

Just wanted to post stating that this sort of visibility and openness in leadership is awesome. Keep it up, crew.

 

[youngjake93]

alrighty...



http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/asb-feedback-game-issues-thread-mk-ii.3483451/page-12 and onwards. Too lazy to say it again.

But I will say two things:
a) Deck's proposal is very interesting and should be analyzed further/implemented
b) Weight is silly as a whole. I don't even know how to start.



Aside from weight and hp, the game doesn't require much changes. If we fix that, the game will be balanced enough to keep it stable somewhat. There is Endeavor and Pain Split, but nothing too concerning.

The "problem" (because it may be not be a problem) is that people will want to change stuff regardless. For reasons other than balance strictly. While that does prevent the game from being stale, I really question the need for said changes. We should focus on trimming the reffing process, registration and the display of data, as well as RPs as a whole and the Gym League. If you create more ways for people to have fun battling you won't have the need to keep changing stuff I think.



That question is better answered by people that came recently. I didn't so I don't know.

But you can be sure as hell that the whole registration/approving process is MUCH better than before. akela and IAR (among others) are sure doing a marvelous job.

The only suggestion I would give is to put a link to the Beginner's Guide on the "how to join" sticky on the registration forum. So it is easier to find where the profile template is.



As I said to Texas, I think that this question must be made because sometimes I feel that people are overgearing to face something that won't come. After the initial euphoria, I only see people really having fun on Raids and Tournaments. And some on Gyms as well. But I am not sure people have fun on serious matches, as they usually take too long and you, in no time, get to the point where you just want "the slot back"... and the same on RPs for the exact same reasons.

And why don't we have more tourneys? Because it takes way too long (and again the time element is there). Why the Gym League drives away so many people? Because it will take years to get a good set of badges even if you are a great player.

I feel that 99% of the reason why ASB may not be fun or isn't as fun as its potential to some is the time it takes. If we are to tackle something, I believe that would be priority 1 and 2 and 3 and 4 etc.

Maybe if we shared the reffing duties with the players? I mean, the ref has to format the round, add images hp and what not, get the moves, calc the damage, roll RNG, rule stuff, post end-game and flavor. In theory the only things that must be done by the ref are: Roll RNG, Rule Stuff and do Flavor. Everything can be done by the battler.

So my suggestion would be: estimulate (not force yet) the trainer ordering first to post on the same post as the orders the profile (image, hp, en, stats and item) of the pokemon involved in that round. And the trainer ordering last would post the calculations for the moves dones (only the ones he can be sure that will be used...or something like that) and list the rolls that need to be done. The ref would only need to copy and paste that (profiles and calculations) into his reffing, roll the rng, do the proper changes if the rng gets something and post. Maybe that will make reffing a bit easier?

Also, allow trainers to post reffings themselves if there is no RNG to be rolled or ruling to be made. If a pokemon faints A1 by the attack of a faster mon regardless of critical hits, there is no need to wait for the ref to post a result that you already know. Same way if, for example, Lucky Chant is up (let me theorymon I know that doesn't happen >_<) and both players spam attacks with no secondary effects. Again waiting for the ref is useless, as the result will be the same no matter what.

The opposing player would be the control of this, as well as the ref. Maybe that way we can boost, even just a little, the speed of the matches and, because of that, our possibilities of having fun.

2 cents


PS: Also, I will go take a look at the RP OP as requested.

Adding onto this, I thought it would be interesting if the reffing system were changed to be anyone can ref a round and 1 round paid a flat UC rate. That way people can ref without the intimidation of being locked into doing it for a week+ which will hopefully increase reffing activity. What it also does is allow you to not wait so long for a reffing since we all know that the ref is usually the slowest(with good reason since its the most work).
A ref could reserve the right to ref the entire match if they want to add flavor or it is an important match, etc, but those that don't mind having someone else ref could do so without the formality/commitment of a subref.

 

[Leethoof]

Youngjakes idea is totally cool and we should support it - I proposed a similar thingie for the ASB RPRP when I was more involved in asb. Cyclical community reffing removes a lot of stress and improves speed and effeciency for regular battle tower matches and formulized rps like hall and subway. It could help fix a lot of problems with reffing. I know for a fact that I, the legendary johnhoof, would ref a lot more if I wasn't bound to deadlines and could squweze in a round or two whenever I have time.