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All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Dre89

    Dre89

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    But with wrap dragonite would have rivalled tauros in terms of dominance.

    I'm not talking about 'get it in on something sleeping straight away and set up' play. I'm talking about 'get rid of gengar and rocks, keep it hidden for end-game when they don't have enough HP to stall it' kind of play.
  2. Awoken

    Awoken

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    Still of the opinion that Blissey should be over Raikou. IMO:
    GSC Raikou is #3, Blissey is top 20
    ADV Raikou is top 20, Blissey is #6
    DPP Raikou is top 40-50, Blissey is top 20, maybe higher
  3. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    I'm starting to lean mostly towards Jirachi for the number 9 spot. I know it seems a bit odd to include something that didn't exist until ADV, but hear me out.

    There are quite a few names being dropped for Pokemon that shone in 2 gens (Dragonite, Raikou, Exeggutor) but failed to really dominate one or two other gens. Jirachi has been fantastic its entire existence. I think a Pokemon that has consistently dominated since its inception is a better pick for this than something that existed longer, dominated the same length of time, but also flopped during its existence. We're looking for the most dominant in history and I think its important to keep in mind a Pokemon's entire history, not just its crowning achievements.

    As for the two generations it existed, Jirachi is a top five Pokemon in both. I'd go so far as to argue that it's the best Pokemon in DPP OU. It not only has the versatility to function in a wide range of roles and in every playstyle, but it is also superb in each of these roles. CM sweeper? Revenge killer? Support? Scout? It's the glue that holds a huge number of teams together, regardless of how its being used. There's not really a hard counter to Jirachi, as it can beat any of its "counters" depending on what set it's running. Each set has counters, but nothing beats them all.

    Despite only existing in 2 generations, it's an easy top 5 in both and I think it'd be a shame to ignore it. I've already made my arguments for Blissey, and that's got my vote for #10 right now.
  4. Awoken

    Awoken

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    Jellicent, if we use your idea of basing this list on a Pokemon's entire history, this list would need to be completely restructured. IIRC, the main reason Snorlax beat out Tyranitar for #1 was that it actually existed in Gen 1. Also, this is extremely biased toward dominant newer-gen Pokemon; why not Heatran at #1 then?

    Going to nitpick about a lot of things people say about Gen 3, so apologies in advance. Jirachi is far from top 5 in ADV. It'd give it maybe top 12? Jirachi just isn't as consistent game to game as things like Tyranitar, Gengar, Celebi, Suicune, Snorlax, Blissey, Zapdos, Salamence, Swampert, Skarmory, etc. and doesn't really add much defensively to a team. Both the offensive CM Superachi set and the traditional CM Wish Jirachi are also quite susceptible to Dugtrio, a pretty bad weakness to have in ADV (Tyranitar and Celebi can deal with it because they're just that good).
  5. Borat

    Borat

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    Nope. The main reason snorlax won is because gsc snorlax is better than ANY pokemon in ANY generation.
  6. Crystal_

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    I think Gen 1 + Gen 2 Snorlax already beats anything else
  7. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    I think you missed that part...
  8. Borat

    Borat

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    Right, the idea was to swing either the consistency argument, or the dominance. I'm much more in favor of exeggutor being a top 10, albeit I don't see how you can say dnite is "BL" in RBY, that's like saying alakazam is ou in gsc (i.e. historically). dnite is only "bl" in rby on the basis of inconsistent rulesets, but this is smogon. And dragonite, anyway you look at it, is a better pokemon than blissey in GSC.

    I want to say exeggutor dominated 2 gens harder than any non-ttar/lax. You're not a favor of him, sure, but to say exeggutor is "questionably top 5" is a stretch. He's a "questionable top 3", with top 4 being a lock. I think zapdos has a firm grasp of 2, and while i still do slightly favor the consistency of raikou over exeggutor, you can definitely make a case for it at 3 as well.

    exeggutor holds the same rankings in rby imo, a debatable "top 3", but a lock for top 4 imo.

    and i think that any pokemon that's a bl or lower counts as a "does not exist". I don't think it should count AGAINST the pokemon.
  9. Crystal_

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    I think the only way we can make a case for Blissey over Dragonite is if we count Blissey and Chansey as one. Otherwise look:

    Gen 2 Dragonite >= Gen 2 Blissey
    Gen 4 Dragonite > Gen 4 Blissey
    Gen 1 Dragonite = Gen 3 Blissey

    I think Raikou, Exeggutor, and the spikers are more deserving than Blissey as well.

    I am with Borat on this:
    On the other hand, it's probably unfair to utterly disrespect Chansey's status in RBY when talking about Blissey. Just saying. Maybe we can include Blissey in the top ten specifying that it made the list because RBY Chansey gave it a nudge.
  10. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    I'm not sure if I'd put Gen 4 Dragonite over Gen 4 Blissey. Gen 4 Blissey had to compete with the newly buffed up Tyranitar for role as Special Defense, but Dragonite basically spent 4th gen living in the shadow of Salamence until its banning.
  11. Golden Gyarados

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    I haven't chimed in on this thread yet, but I am 100% in agreement with this - it's weird to "have" to ignore Chansey, and I think it's a nice compromise to give Blissey a little asterisk explaining the nudge (compromise in the sense that if we counted Chansey and Blissey together from the start the list might have shaken out differently, but at least nudging Blissey into 10 with an asterisk is the compromise).
  12. Borat

    Borat

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    A nudge/asterisk would be 11. i.e. honorable mention. Sir. And that's really what bliss/chan deserves.
  13. Golden Gyarados

    Golden Gyarados

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    Even better idea, actually. Puts the Blissey debate to rest, allows us to focus elsewhere for the 9-10 spots, and respects Chansey from RBY. Can we agree on that and call it a day on Blissey?
  14. Dre89

    Dre89

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    I honestly think it's werid that a thread about dominance ignores ubers, who are uber because of their dominance.

    Arbitrarily removing some pokemon and then saying 'X is the most dominant pokemon' doesn't really make sense to me.
  15. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    I mean I don't see how you can compare chansey with no special split to blissey with a special split and group them together at all. It'd be like saying togekiss has been garbage through the ages because togetic... no, togekiss didn't exist yet. If the mons were even slightly similar I might be inclined to agree but they are sooooo different.

    And free raikou
  16. Dre89

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    They're special walls that offer support. I don't think you really need to complicate it more than that.
  17. waterwizard

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    Chansey/Blissey should be in the running for this top 10. Their extreme power in the first two gens and Blissey's enduring role as the ultimate special sponge earns them both spots in this list, especially if Starmie is ranked here...

    Chansey was top three in RBY (2nd or 3rd), and Blissey was top- to mid-OU in every subsequent gen. Blissey is the continuation of Chansey until Gen 5 when Chansey became relevant again. They should be counted as one unit in gens 1-4, for the purposes of this rankings list.

    Exeggutor is the best or second best pokemon in RBY, and was a tremendous threat in GSC as well, at least top five. Gen 3 Eggy is an offensive powerhouse. Insignificant in gen 4 but the first two gens should hold enough weight to keep him in this top 10.

    I would also swap Starmie and Skarmory on that list. Starmie was 5-8 in RBY, and just a spinner thereafter. Not very significant. Certainly doesn't have the mythic status of Skarm/Bliss, etc.

    EDIT: I feel like GSC players laud Snorlax with a grin on their face... "JIMP! Can't believe we got away with keeping Lax out of Ubers!
  18. Joim

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    Chansey had a very, very important role in RBY, as well as being somewhat important in Gen 5 thanks to Eviolite. Blissey has been a premier Special wall too, and I'm too of the opinion they should count together for the list.

    Exeggutor has been very important, moreso than Dragonite, and it deserves a top 10 position. Despite its underdog presence in gens 4 and 5 its early domination makes it worthy.
  19. Dre89

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    I'd say that in RBY OU, tauros is top, chansey is second, and starmie exeggutor and snorlax probably all tie for third. If we're counting the wrap meta too, then starmie is probably ahead of the other two, and dragonite is probably up there as well.

    From what I've heard blissey wasn't really that good in GSC because it was set-up bait for a lot of physical pokemon.
  20. MeowMixx

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    Hi guys, I never really post here but I was directed to this particular subforum and this discussion looked really interesting so I'd like to weigh in.

    I'm not really sure where it would fall in terms of 9th or 10th, but I feel like Salamence definitely deserves a spot somewhere on this list. Obviously it's a complete no-show in gens 1 and 2, but tf we're talking about dominant, metagame shaping forces then it's really hard to look past what Mence did in ADV and DPP.

    Although bulky waters are already ubiquitous in ADV because of TTar, Salamence's is the reason that so much stuff is forced to carry Ice attacks instead of a difference coverage move. It's undoubtedly a top 10 Mon and possibly top 5, with a decent amount of versatility and a ton of raw power to boot. In early DP, it was almost definitely a top 3 mon due to DMeteor and the physical/special split, and in DPP it was the defining metagame force alongside Latias before it got thrown into ubers. Not really sure how much more dominant you can get in a gen.
  21. Borat

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    There's your answer.
  22. Hemp Man

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    But if I remember correctly it was only banned towards the end of 4th gen. Before that, it was a huge threat.
  23. MeowMixx

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    no hemp man, borat is right, its ~1 year uber status completely negates the six or so years it spent as a top tier OU mon across two gens
  24. Dre89

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    Isn't being thrown into Ubers a point in it's favour since stuff gets put into Ubers because they dominate OU so much?
  25. Borat

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    idunno but every time a ubers argument comes up, celebi comes right back into the mix as being a top 3 favorite.

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