All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. ZandgaiaX

    ZandgaiaX

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2009
    Messages:
    564
    I wouldn't know whether chansey-blissey can count as a whole, but even then Blissey did leave her mark on the metagame, atleast pre-gen four and then again after the dragon-era.

    I'm also not saying that Blissey is better than skarmory: far from, but if Skarmory is put on the list, Blissey makes a 'fair shot' at being on the list as well, that's what I was trying to say.
  2. Asterat

    Asterat

    Joined:
    Jul 20, 2011
    Messages:
    880
    I think 7-10 should definitely include dragonite, alakazam, maybe jolteon, and definitely suicune. CroCune = gen 3.
  3. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,384
    I thought Suicune was locked in #7, although thats underrating it
  4. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    Suicune should be over Gengar... anyway. Dragonite was never so dominant, Jolteon either, but Alakazam can fit on the place #10, but I have my doubts.
  5. fatjake

    fatjake

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2012
    Messages:
    4
    imho. jirachi + swampert should be in the list. defense from hell and crazy revolutionary typing, respectively.

    i also feel like scizor and azelf belong on the list, as both would wreck unprepared teams in their heyday (unrelated: scizor still does)
  6. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2012
    Messages:
    328
    Jirachi is extremely good (and OU) in ADV/DPP/BW. This seems like it deserves a spot on the top10.

    Though I agree with suicune at 7. Jirachi at 8 imo.
  7. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    867
    Alakazam was only good in one gen, so definitely no. I mean, to put it into perspective, there is no way Alakazam deserves more than Exeggutor.
    Jolteon was an bottom OU at best in every gen so not either.

    BW is not being considered though (notice this is a RoA thread), so Jirachi is essentially a two-gen good, two gen non-existent Pokemon. Say, if I go back to the Exeggutor comparison again gen1/gen2 egg >= gen3/gen4 jirachi, and egg at least existed in the other two gens.

    I think the three remaining slots should be filled with Dragonite, Celebi and one of the two spikers, in no particular order. I don't think Blissey alone deserves to be above any of these.
  8. kd24

    kd24 people be stoopid
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,240
    i dont understand how this guy from chile nyara is saying zam should be 10 but dnite shouldnt get on at all.

    anyway, it should be suicune and celebi for sure at 7 and 8 and now i want to throw Raikou's name in the mix. im not going to say its the best mon in GSC like LN does but its certainly top 3 and meta defining, its really good in adv vs unprepared teams (in fact read the first line of raikous adv analysis: http://www.smogon.com/rs/pokemon/raikou - THE BEST SPECIAL SWEEPER IN THE GAME), and its actually really good in dp and can be very good on a lot of teams (and some very good teams in dpp used it)

    im going raikou for number 9
  9. Nyara

    Nyara

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2012
    Messages:
    294
    Dragonite without Wrap on RBY = Barely BL
    Dragonite on GSC = Not great, not bad, avarage
    Dragonite on ADV = Good, but not great, great.
    Dragonite on DPP = Great

    Alakazam without Wrap on RBY = Totally OU
    Alakazam on GSC = Not great, not bad, avarage
    Alakazam on ADV = Good
    Alakazam on DPP = Good

    And if we look at the title, it say "in History", and Wrap was not so abussed on the past as its being today, so, Alakazam mantains an edge over Dragonite along the time, but, yeah, both are kinda similar, anyway, also, I DIN'T say "put Alakazam on the place 10!", I just said it can be a possibility, but I doubt that could be a good possibility.

    Anyway, considering the free slots for the Top 10, I could say: Suicune (#7), Blissey (#8), Raikou (#9), and maybe Cloyster for the number 10 to put a non-Skarmory Spiker over there, and Cloyster was OU on RBY, giving him an edge over the other spikers, or just Exeggutor (or Starmie).
  10. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
    is a Tournament Directoris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Tutor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jun 12, 2008
    Messages:
    1,384
    Alakazam is terrible in DPP Ou and bad in GSc and ADV, while Dnite is great in RBY and DDP, and decent in GSC and ADV
  11. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    744
    suicune and some/both spiker deserves a spot in top 10. can we decide 7 already, seems like cune is pretty much a lock.
  12. kd24

    kd24 people be stoopid
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,240
    Celebi, Raikou, Cloyster or Dragonite are my official picks for the final 3 - deciding between Dnite and Cloyster is too tough for me, but let's hurry up and get Celebi number 8 cuz you're not going to find a better one.
  13. Magcargo 2

    Magcargo 2 ༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つDruddigon
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,226
    Blissey seems like a number 8. Blissey literally destroyed all special attackers in GSC, RSE, and DPP. While it can still take the most powerful special moves, it falls to powerful physical hits like lucario's close combat and scizor's superpower. Nevertheless, blissey still remains a metagame changing pokemon, walling most special attackers.
  14. Jellicent

    Jellicent Ambien Trance
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,081
    Yeah, Suicune's locked at 7. Celebi at number 8.

    Blissey, even though RBY Chansey isn't being looped in with it, should make it on the list, imo. While it's setup bait for a lot of Pokemon, its ability to switch in and wall almost any purely special sweeper makes it a dominating defensive threat. It also has a good variety of support moves, so there's quite a bit of versatility.

    Forretress or Jirachi are what I lean mostly towards for the other spot, though there are quite a few contenders that I'd be happy with.

    Magcargo2, BW isn't included in this list~
  15. kd24

    kd24 people be stoopid
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,240
    ok i'm going to do my best to change your mind

    in gsc, blissey is a weaker mon that aims to just support the team. it's not horrifically bad, but i dont see what it brings to the table thats so special. i havent seen it once in gsc

    in comparison, raikou is unquestionable a top 3 mon in GSC, some would argue its almost as good as lax is and is proly #2

    in adv, blissey is vital for walling some of the biggest threats and is actually a capable mon with a cm set as well.

    but in adv, raikou can beat those same mons with calm mind like suicune and is fast enough to do serious damage without setting up. it also is a much better check vs threats like gengar who are almost uncounterable in advance. both are "weak" to dugtrio, so that issues seems like a wash to me

    in dpp, blissey is a great mon but isnt the attacker it is in adv and just sits around stalling but once again, raikou is also great. it's popularity skyrocketed towards end of dpp, finding homes on teams as a scarfer and a strong fast cmer

    gsc raikou is wayyyy better than gsc blissey
    adv blissey is about equal to adv raikou
    dpp blissey is slightly better than dpp raikou

    i think raikous dominance in gsc only takes this for raikou
  16. Crystal_

    Crystal_
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2009
    Messages:
    867
    Alakazam is pretty far from Dragonite in both GSC and ADV. And it's only UU in DP. I think it's very clear Zam should be out the discussion. No hating here, Zam is a very cool Pokemon but it just doesn't belong to this list at all.
    And I don't agree with the fact that you considered RBY without Wrap. Okay, Wrap moves didn't work properly for a long time in the past, but right now Dnite is in OU where it should be. Although sometimes these moves may be banned I think we should be consistent with the fact that this is Smogon and in Smogon Wrap moves have always been allowed.
  17. Antihaxxer

    Antihaxxer

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2012
    Messages:
    402
    Alakazam in GSC was far better than Dragonite with Elemental Punch + Recover + Thunder wave + Psychic stab ... The only problem ? Blissey, Snorlax everywhere.
  18. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    744
    No.
  19. Awoken

    Awoken

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2012
    Messages:
    41
    Not really, Blissey >>> Raikou in ADV. Raikou is a pretty bad defensively; it gets worn down with spikes, sandstorm, and no reliable recovery to check things like Gengar, and can only at best force a Calm Mind war with things like offensive Jirachi and Celebi, which CM Bliss can beat handily. It also can't take Earthquakes at all, whereas Blissey can serve as a last-ditch answer to things like Dragon Dance Salamence or Gyarados, living an HP[Flying] and firing back with an Ice Beam or Thunderbolt.
    Most importantly, Raikou is extremely susceptible to Dugtrio. Jolly Dugtrio can switch into any move of Raikou (except the extremely uncommon Roar, which doesn't really do anything) and guarantee a KO, while Jolly Dugtrio doesn't even always 2HKO Blissey and risks being KOed by Ice Beam, being Toxic stall, even facing the uncommon Counter Blissey. Yes both are "weak" to Dugtrio, but Raikou's vulnerability to Dugtrio is like Skarmory's to Magneton, while Blissey's vulnerability is more comparable to Metagross's to Magneton (must be significantly weakened, cannot switch in, etc.).
    That being said, Raikou is a more immediate offensive threat, but one that is held back by its crippling vulnerability to Dugtrio.
  20. Borat

    Borat

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2007
    Messages:
    744
    But Blissey's straight up bad in GSC. And if it weren't for so many mediocre players continually using it, it'd be BL. In fact, it is BL in the upper echelons of play.
  21. Awoken

    Awoken

    Joined:
    Oct 14, 2012
    Messages:
    41
    Though Raikou is undisputably better than Blissey in GSC, Raikou isn't close to comparable to Blissey in ADV, being maybe top 20 whereas Blissey is easily top 6. From my limited experience in DPP, Blissey is also far better there as a hard wall to the immensely powerful special attackers of the tier. On a whole, Blissey is at least equal to Raikou.
  22. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,802
    blissey really should be above raikou on the list, there isn't much of a question about it. of course raikou's way better in gsc, but blissey's also way better in dpp, so to me it comes down to adv in order to determine which is above the other. raikou is a rather mediocre special sweeper that's beaten by a bunch of different stuff depending on what hidden power it's running. it's also beaten by any form of blissey, which is super common in adv, and for good reason. it's an absolutely integral pokemon on stall teams, which many old players regard as the best adv playstyle. blissey's also way more diverse, as it can run a cleric set, a wish set, or a calm mind set, compared to raikou, which only really has one set (ok it can run roar too but who does that). and as for the dugtrio argument, hell no it's not a wash are you kidding me? dugtrio straight up ohkos raikou, and it can switch in unexpectedly on a tbolt or calm mind to do that. blissey is barely 2hko'd by dugtrio, outside of sand it often isn't, and bliss can ohko duggy right back with either an invested ice beam or counter. raikou doesn't have that option. overall i think blissey's definitely the better pokemon.
  23. Jellicent

    Jellicent Ambien Trance
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,081
    Blissey was in the top ten most used for a good chunk of the generation, and was consistently in the top 15 Pokemon. Raikou was UU / BL for the entire generation and only started seeing a rise in usage after tiering for DPP ended, so I don't see how Blissey was only slightly more dominant... Also, Blissey's ability to sponge hits from any special attacker is the main reason Explosion and Trick are so common on them (neither of which Raikou was lucky enough to receive). It's also the face of stall...

    While Blissey isn't an offensive powerhouse by any means, it does have a tendency to lure in physical attackers, and its movepool is fantastic. Over Seismic Toss, it can run Ice Beam, Flamethrower, or Thunderbolt. After Stealth Rock (which it can set up), it can lure out and damage beyond repair Gyarados, Scizor, Dragonite, and Flygon, all of which usually love coming in against Blissey. Ice Beam actually OHKOes Salamence after Stealth Rock. Like I said, it's not great, but it can still beat common switch-ins, which is always a boon.
  24. kd24

    kd24 people be stoopid
    is a Pokemon Researcheris a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Dec 21, 2007
    Messages:
    5,240
    i dont think you can measure something by usage because thats a horrendous way of determining power level. in the same way i dont think scizor is the best pokemon in dpp, i dont think blissey is as good as top 10 usage indicates. its role was to keep the extremely power sweepers like raikou in check but as dpp has progressed over time, i think players have shifted towards other mons to do so like celebi or pert which have offensive presence back. outside of stall and ipl's para team, you will probably not find many good players and teams in dpp using something like blissey randomly and i think that while you can list positive traits of blissey, you can do so for any mon. maybe i'm alone in thinking this, but i think you're severely overrating purely on usage statistics which is just foolish.
  25. Jellicent

    Jellicent Ambien Trance
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Super Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Super Moderator

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2011
    Messages:
    2,081
    I'm not saying its better because of high usage, just a more dominant force in the metagame. The more often a Pokemon is used, the more the metagame is shaped around it. Blissey shaped the metagame much more than Raikou.

    Also, comparing the two directly is difficult, seeing as one is offensive and the other's defensive. That said, I think Blissey has a much more dominant role on defensive teams than Raikou has on offensive teams.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)