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All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    i personally think that skarm should considered among the company of suicune and celebi rather than gengar and starmie.


    also celebi is better than suicune in every metagame they're both in and blissey doesn't stand a chance. additionally i wouldn't consider it in terms of it being uber because it is too good, but banned because it is bad for the meta. it was good but you can't look at it as uber in the same way as you look at mewtwo in rby or groudon in adv that you should never consider allowing, just banned. regardless i would say that it was more potentially impactful than suicune on a game to game basis and i might rethink skarm's position as well tbh.

    then i would make 9 and 10 a notch lower (as in, not the same shade of green as 6 7 and 8) since nothing else is on the same level as those three imo if anyone's seriously considering blissey for those positions it only emphasizes that distinction. blissey doesn't stack up against them, and neither do things like forretress or dragonite and you might think deserve those spots either. (for the record i think blissey easily deserves #9)

    other things i'd think about for those last two slots are i guess cloyster, vaporeon, and raikou. my vote goes toward vaporeon i think because it is ou for 3 metagames, and is super important in gsc and dppt.
  2. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    The only reason it isn't in RBY OU is that Mewtwo is banned and Chansey isn't Psychic-type (it would be strictly better if it was). With Mewtwo legal, everything that isn't Psychic-type or Chansey must run in fear of its STAB.
  3. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    Oh yesterday I wanted to bump this too. What's the consensus so far for #7-#10? Is there any? It looked like Suicune was generally agreed for 7th, but I think that was about it.
  4. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ruiner of Alph

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    Suicune for 7 sounds good to me~

    As for the last 3 slots, I believe Jirachi, Blissey, and Celebi were the frontrunners...
  5. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    still believe celebi is better than cune and cune bliss vaporeon should be the last three.

    also skarm celebi and cune should be their own "group" and bliss and vap should be the lowest group.
  6. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Jirachi with only 2 gens, and not being at least top 3 in any of them?
    Forry/Cloy/Dnite > Jirachi
  7. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    What has more negative impact, being, say, Exeggutor in ADV/DP, or being Forretress in RBY?
  8. skeezyj

    skeezyj

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    even though it's only in bw, i think that politoed deserves a mention. it was mediocre at best in every other generation--actually, if it wasn't for drizzle, it would be in ru, max this gen--but rain is so utterly metagame defining that it deserves to be on here somewhere. if drizzle didn't exist in ou, ou would be unrecognizable at the moment. so many of the top pokemon in the meta rely or at least benefit from rain-torn t, keldeo, ferrothorn, scizor, tentacruel, dragonite, rotom w, the list goes on. in short, the current metagame would barely exist without its rain. it's the most important pokemon of this generation, no competition.
  9. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    only discussing dominance between rby and dp bro.
  10. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn
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    cune is the right fit for #7, seems a cut above the rest of the stuff we mentioned. i'm really liking forry and cloy for slots 8 and 9, respectively. forry was obv not existent in rby and i don't play gsc so i can't speak for that gen, but it was the premier spiker and spinner in adv and played a huge role in dpp on stall and even balanced teams. cloyster is slightly below forry imo, though it was adequate in rby and remains my favorite spiker of adv, it had little to no impact on the dpp metagame whatsoever. blissey seems the perfect fit for 10, though i can understand the arguments to be made for celebi as well, but bliss was just so huge in adv as a special tank, cleric, even cm sweeper, and it had the role in dpp as the poke to beat in order to dismantle stall. rachi seems like a poor fit, it was only around for two gens and really wasn't top tier ou in either of them.

    just my two cents ^^
  11. Deluks917

    Deluks917 Ride on Shooting Star
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    Cloyster was not used very much during most of ADV's heyday. Celebi was really good in aDV. At one point it was even banned from the tour.

    Cune and Bliss seem a cut above the other applicants. Both were extremely strong in at least two gens and useful in a third.
  12. Dre89

    Dre89

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    Wouldn't the most dominant pokemon be an uber?

    I mean, they're basically banned because of how dominant they are. Seems kind of silly to omit them from a discussion of dominance when the reason they're omitted is dominance.

    Also, psychic was the best type in RBY. I mean, two psychics were banned because of how good they were.
  13. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    we're missing that celebi is better than cune in at least two metagames here!

    and it's most overall dominant pokemon based on performance in the ou metagame(s) so it has to either be ou or have been ou at one time to judge its dominance of a particular generation. so for example you can consider salamence for dp or celebi for gsc but not ho-oh for anything
  14. Borat

    Borat

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    Normal is the best typing in the first two OU gens.
  15. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    What 2 metagames?
    In GSC Celebi is uber, so GSC celebi doesnt count, in ADV Suicune is better, and in DP is better as well
  16. shrapn3l

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    celebi wasn't always uber in gsc and i seem to recall jellicent said that if that is the case then a pokemon can be considered for that metagame. i probably played gsc more than any other time when celebi was allowed and it was absolutely everywhere, and obviously a superior pokemon to suicune because it forces switches, lives forever and was the best beller. i also thought it was widely agreed that it was better than suicune in adv in another thread and if even if i am mistaken i still think it is quite debatable... i would say celebi has been more ubiquitous in adv than suicune for quite some time. dp i would give to suicune though as well, but historically celebi has been pretty dominant in DP, just not so much anymore.
  17. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I dunno if Celebi should be placed over Suicune, though, because a whole era of GSC has been played without the former, so it's really only a half-generation of dominance. I would support Suicune #7, Celebi #8, and Blissey #9.

    As for #10, I know my Forretress vote has been shot down repeatedly, so I won't bring that up again, but if we're considering Jirachi for only being good in two generations I think that Egg deserves a fair shake for hitting the top 5 in RBY and GSC before falling off the face of the earth in ADV and DPP. Raikou might be an even better #10 pick for being top 3 in GSC and obviously one of the most threatening sweepers in ADV (and, while BL in DPP, isn't exactly nonviable in OU).
  18. Crystal_

    Crystal_
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    And idk, maybe Dragonite deserves the 10th spot. Top 10-15 in rby, top 20-25 in gsc, and usable in adv. It'll depend on how good it is in DP, but I've heard that since mence got banned Dnite has become one of the most dominant pokemon in dp. I could be wrong here though. If it's not as dominant, then I'd say either Egg or one of the spikers gets the last spot. Egg before Jirachi all the way though because egg's more dominant in the first two gens than jirachi is in the next two.
  19. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    if you are looking at it from a perspective of "dominance over time" then obviously suicune takes it for gsc but that's just because it wasn't detrimental enough to get banned which seems a little skewed. the way i saw it was, since celebi was only unbanned for a relatively small amount of time, you give that span of time much more weight. you know that if celebi never got banned it would still be dominating and while it wasn't banned it was probably the 2nd or 3rd most used thing. in gsc, celebi was more dominant when it was unbanned than suicune was dominant when celebi WAS banned, that's why i give it to celebi. i'm putting celebi while unbanned against suicune while celebi is banned, and celebi still wins. i think it is logical to look at it both ways (dominance over time vs. dominance at peak dominance) it just depends on what everyone agrees upon i guess.

    as for #10 i was sure about vap but now that i think about it i could also go with dragonite. there's still a strong case for vap though. and forretress i guess
  20. Borat

    Borat

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    I don't really understood the whole consensus on celebi and stuff, since I don't get how you can only "half count" something for a gen. I think the general agreement on current rankings is that GSC celebi is out the window. Else it'd top gengar and probably zapdos and fighting against ttar for #2.
  21. shrapn3l

    shrapn3l

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    well i dunno about all of that but i would definitely put it above skarm (and do what i said before, moving skarm celebi and suicune into their own tier) gengar is/always has been pretty incredible in dp, zapdos is probably the second best thing in gsc now which would in a sense tie it with celebi at its peak dominance essentially, and zapdos and gengar both have their top tier rby status to consider. i can understand the logic that everyone is following but it seems that if there was a consensus it was unspoken (nobody said anything about this since jellicent said that pokemon that were unbanned like dp salamence were eligible for consideration). i just want to make sure there's consistency here.
  22. Borat

    Borat

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    I think GSC celebi is the most dominant thing after GSC snorlax (dominant referring to how much better than the rest, not just rankings).
  23. magic9mushroom

    magic9mushroom

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    This is true in RBY OU solely because the best Psychic-types - the two bulky Psychics with Recover - were the original Uber tier. Moreover, the Normal-type that stops most Psychic-types - Chansey - has utterly no use of its STAB and would be strictly better were it Psychic. For that matter, literally every single-typed Pokemon in RBY would be strictly better were it dual-typed with Psychic. The same is not true of Normal.
  24. Borat

    Borat

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    Doesn't change the fact that top 3 OU in RBY are all normal.
  25. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    Salamence sounds like a better fit than Dragonite in my opinion, it only existed through the last two gens but it was incredibly overpowered in DPP and had more tools to work with on ADV. Nite was barely useful on RBY and GSC so that doesn't exactly speak a lot about dominance.

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