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All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. meteor64

    meteor64

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    ...I'm seriously starting to doubt whether you've played adv to the extent you think. Suicune is very similar to GSC Zapdos in that it simultaneously poses as a strong defensive pillar and a huge offensive threat, and it also has the power to beat its checks over the course of a game- in fact, Suicune is even more capable of that feat because Pressure stalling is far more reliable than hitting consecutive Thunders. This is why Rest is actually a good thing for Cune and any seasoned ADV player knows this. To go any further would be taking this comparison too far, since they exist in completely different meta's and are completely different pokemon. But the point is they both achieve similar things.

    Secondly, locked movepool? Last time I checked the only 2 moves that are mandatory on a Cune set were Calm Mind and a STAB move (a trait that Jirachi, a renowned "versatile" pokemon shares)- the rest of it's set can be a number of things- Rest/Roar, Rest/Ice Beam, Resttalk, Sub/Ice Beam, or even Ice Beam/HP Electric. That's more than enough options to pose a multidimensional threat, and they all require different methods to overcome.

    You are right that removing Cune would have less effect than removing GSC Zap, but not for the reasons you think. As I already said, Cune has many viable sets that it can run, and they perform and threaten in different ways. In fact, between its sets it can get past any pokemon in the game. Zapdos, while being amazing, does not have that luxury. Like I said earlier, the comparison doesn't apply. It has no way around Raikou (unless extreme parahax), and thus it probably owes its high usage to Zapdos' existence. Suicune has sets for Blissey, for Celebi, for Zapdos, for Regice, for Gyarados... can you see the problem? Theres not a way to beat all Cune sets with one poke, and things that do give most Cune sets trouble (Zapdos, CMBlissey, Raikou) will run those sets regardless because they're so effective in other common scenarios. If any change were to happen, it'd probably just be the things that Cune walls getting more prevalent, such as TTar, Flygon, Mence, Aero, and Pert. Especially Pert.
  2. Crystal_

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    Granted, if your point is that Suicune isn't as common/dominant as Zapdos in GSC nowadays, you are right. Plenty of reasons, all of which follow the recent changes on the metagame:

    Teams are more offensive than ever, and these teams just can't afford to have a pokemon that does max 13% to Snorlax after leftovers. Unless you back Cune up with Skarm or Miltank, Curselax (yeah CURSELAX) is gonna wear you down eventually, not to mention drumlax. You might be able to play around Curselax with a Toxic set, but the point of suicune is usually talking with it if you want it able to deal with mixsweepers/egg/marowak, and a surf toxic talk set would just lead to bad talks and won't really work.
    On the offensive side, suicune has no offense against any half defensive team, while Zapdos is only really fully walled by Raikou (may take down Snorlax with Thunders especially with spikes down).

    Even into stall teams, Zapdos has become more popular than Suicune as the "general defensive coverage + ST" pokemon, while the water-type slot is generally filled with Cloyster/Starmie. While Zapdos acts as a poor-man suicune against most mixsweepers, still does a good job of it (not against ttar though, but Miltank/Starmie/Raikou/Snorlax can generally deal with it depending on the set). The difference lies in the fact that Zapdos does cover many things that Suicune doesn't and that many stall teams have problems with. Vaporeon: A sleep talking cune is a setup bait for vap (unless vap doesn't surf maybe, then you could be able to play around pp if you are lucky). Machamp, especially the Cursetalk kind if Skarm is only your other decent Machamp check. Gengar. Cloyster (a toxic-less Suicune often lets Cloyster switch-in a get its spikes down for free). Heh, and Tenta too. Plus, since the most common kind of "stall" team now is by far heavy defense + spikes, zapdos powers up its offense alongside spikes, which help it wear down the opposing offensive team instead of just "walling one pokemon" like suicune does (and often being set-up bait for another like Suicune is), as suciune generally lets Snorlax switch and set up for free even when you have laid down spikes.

    P.S. I forgot to say that Zapdos is immune to Spikes. That's REALLY huge.

    And that was myself trying my best to explain why Suicune isn't as common as it was back then. You also have to take into account that back then, when hp legends were banned, suicune saw more usage than zapdos, with the standard stall team often being referred as raikou/snorlax/skarm/miltank/suicune/cloyster or starmie. And Raikou was the better electric, too.

    But when you start considering GSC without Suicune is when things become interesting. Suicune is almost the only reason why mixsweepers (those that can) run thunder to begin with (okay vap too?). TTar would be a much more reliable mixsweeper if it hadn't had to worry about Suicune's precense and not being able to 3hko it. Marowak? ST Suicune is arguably the best wak counter, because unlike skarm, cune can actually threaten it. Mixed Snorlax: Unlike zapdos, Suicune always survives three D-Es bar crits. Drumzard was a big threat back then (and still is now). The point is, no matter how uncommon Suicune may be nowadays, Suicune's ability to shut down a big part of the meta has make it one of the most game-defining pokemon through the history of GSC. And Zapdos mattering more than Suicune is a relatively recent shift afterall. Suicune remains as one of the hardest pokemon to break, but obviously, if you compare it to the #2 pokemon in the game you are gonna get a lot of negatives...

    As for the movepool, Suicune really has most of what it needs. This is like with Celebi. It doesn't matter if it had gotten Thunder(bolt) or EQ or CC or whatever, you wouldn't have used them on GSC suicune. Sure, Recover would be awesome, but that would've probably moved him to the Uber tier behind the same arguments Celebi was moved up. And only about 5 usable pokemon in OU can learn a 16+ pp recovery move anyway.

    Having said all that, a big part of suicune being as uncommon these days, even falling down to around #25, is just that gsc players aren't "good enough". Blissey being #2-3 proves that too.
  3. Oiawesome

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    Suicune wasent that dominant overall he had his peak in ADV but thats it,I dont know why we are putting him on a list of dominate beasts like snorlax and tyranitar,while celebi BEFORE HER BOOT TO UBERS and yes their was a time before celebi was ubers in GSC Literaly was just as dominant as snorlax,if you werent their during that era,I envy you,because it was the most boring metagame,the metagame literaly had "Celebi's Playhouse" on it,their was almost no reason to use it,If you couldent something celebi couldent do,you sucked(for pokemon).ADV,It dominated in many defensive catagorys,cleric,tank,defensive cmer,subseeder,etc. And some offensive Catagories to:Bulky Attacker,Calm Minder tied with Alakazam,Best offensive Grass type.etc. And in DPPt It was meh but it
    got exelant new "toys" :Stealth Rock,U-Turn,Nasty Plot but when Tyranitar got 2 HUGE boosts it especialy needed to beat 1)Sdef. Boost in sand,2)Physical Dark STAB and then Scizor shot up in usage,And then celebi fell flat.Overall I think Celebi should be #7
  4. Jorgen

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    Historically GSC Suicune ran a Roar set, so it's not like Suicune was ever really competing with Zapdos for the role of Sleep Talker.

    Nowadays, I disagree that ST is Cune's best set, I'd say it's still Roar all the way. Mostly because Vaporeon exists, but also because ST Suicune is so limited and you'd be better off using Zapdos anyway, who does most of what ST Cune does on defense (except for Tyranitar) and can actually attack, too. And of course if you really want that Ttar coverage from your STer, why not go with Vap, who can set up a sweep instead of just sitting there and looking pretty?

    Anyway yeah Cune is definitely not the metagame-dominating force it once was in GSC. Cune is definitely a big reason why Nido and Dnite started using Thunders in the first place, although with the advent of Vaporeon, the existence of Starmie, and Thunder's nice para rate, I'd say that even if you took Cune away, Thunder would remain pretty popular on these guys. Still, it's a classic stall staple and it still gets the job done today. It should probably be seeing more usage than it does right now because of its ability to shut Vap down almost completely (Vap could always run Roar, but it gives up a lot to do so). That past dominance and current potential are more than enough for me to consider it as deserving of the #7 spot when combined with its monstrous showing in ADV.
  5. Reymedy

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    I have troubles following the flow of this discussion to be honest.
    I mean Zapdos' case is closed isn't it?

    So it's about Celebi/Suicune :

    I think aswell that you underestimate Suicune a little in ADV, but meteor64 said pretty much everything on this point.

    However, on the GSC Celebi point, to me you can't bring the fact that Celebi was strong before its ban.
    Simply because we should consider the fixed metagame, the metagame as it was/is in its final form.
    Else it doesn't really favour the discussion to say that a broken pokemon dominated a shifting and unbalanced metagame.
    Same goes for Salamence in my opinion in DPP.

    So if this point is fixed, Suicune is slighty before Celebi overall.


    EDIT : Didn't see it, sorry.
  6. Oiawesome

    Oiawesome

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    Even Jellicent himself said anything that has been baned like GSC Celebi or DPP mence can be counted,for their old presence on the meta.So Celebi should be 7,8,or 9 because as we all know,It was as dominate as Lax before its ban.
  7. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    I know I wasn't some key ADV player for that long but that was the gen I started playing competitively with Taylor (and Majin iirc) for almost a year and Suicune absolutely defined that metagame to me for the longest time and Celebi simply didn't. I dunno how many of you were around but there was a saying of "if there is a Suicune, there is a way" and it single-handily dominated.

    And in DPP, Celebi became more popular at the end but are you going to just forget the beginning of DP where Salamence didn't have Outrage and NP Nape was a thing. And that Trick Rotom and Trick in general was non-existent? And where SD Chomp didn't run Yache for a while? I would go as far to say Suicune might have been a top 10 Pokemon at one time in DP, something Celebi can never lay claim to in my opinion.

    Also was Celebi really that good in GSC? It seems to me it was banned more because of how absurd and annoying it was to deal with 100/100/100 with Recover/Heal Bell/Leech Seed. Suicune actually had a solid Roar/Surf presence that made it an auto-inclusion in many teams, just as it deals with TTar and other dynamic threats like that. Not saying Celebi would be excluded from teams, I just don't think it was a broken force like Snorlax, more just an annoying as fuck one that absolutely no one wanted to deal with by putting HP Bug on crap. I don't have much experience in GSC at all so my opinion basically revolves around DP and ADV in this case.

    In present day ADV and DPP, Celebi might have an edge, but I wouldn't consider that better than Suicune's reign of terror on 2 metagames.
  8. Oiawesome

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    Suicune never dominated DPP,And this is coming from someone who has played DPP from day one when the meta was established to the current day.Celebi was as dominate as snorlax in GSC,And Lax is #1(He had RBY and some of ADV But still) And Celebi was as dominate as Suicune in ADV ,It was the premier defensive mon its utillity was unmatched:Leech Seed,Calm Mind,Recover,Heal Bell.Granted not that dominate.GSC is what puts it on the list though,That thing was rediculous,it was on almost evrey team,it was the face GSC and it got banned because it was too dominate,Now thats dominate,getting banned for dominance in the same meta where Snorlax isnt dominate enough to be uber.Basicly

    GSC+ADV Celebi's dominance> ADV+GSC+DPP Suicunes dominance.
  9. Crystal_

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    Celebi's never been as dominant as Snorlax. The fact that Celebi was banned and Snorlax was not doesn't prove otherwise; The meta was stally, Snorlax offered offense, and Celebi offered even more annoying stall. As a result, Celebi was banned and Snorlax was not. Logical isn't it?
  10. gene

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    you've gotta be kidding if you think suicune wasn't dominant in adv

    and forretress doesn't belong anywhere near this list. it was good in dp, that's about it.
  11. Borat

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    I think it's hard for anyone to say how "dominant" Celebi is/was WITHOUT theorycrafting. Celebi is an extreme unique case. How can you say it's not dominant just because people weren't good enough to realize it? If we're going with just how successful they've been, instead of being more objective about the matter, Blissey should crack top 5. And Alakazam top 10. But clearly that's not the case.

    So I think either we leave GSC Celebi out of the discussion, or bring GSC Celebi in all of its theorycraft glory.

    Also @OP, Snorlax dominates so hard that shit should be purple.
  12. SHUCKLE MAN

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    Suicune was extremely popular when I joined this forum. And it was definitely one of the most trouble-some Pokemon in the RSE metagame, especially with it's Calm Mind set (helped by the fact that it had no physical weaknesses).
  13. Hemp Man

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    I'm no GSC expert so I'm not trying to dispute anyone here, but I've always wondered what exactly was it that made Celebi so tough in GSC that it was banned?
  14. Borat

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    Because it simply will not die. You pretty much have to stall it out as it brings games to a halt.

    But that's why it'd be banned now.

    It was banned before because it was uber "numerically".
  15. Lavos Spawn

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    Blissey needs a slot in the top 10 for sure. Though it did not exist in RBY, it has been a defining factor in the metagames of GSC, ADV, and DPP. In GSC, where it is actually at its worst, it is still good enough for people, despite how bad or otherwise they may be, to use it enough that it makes numbers two or three in usage stats based on the month you're looking at. In ADV it was an absolute force to be reckoned with, the bane of all special sweepers lacking Roar, and its Calm Mind set was deadly after just a couple boosts. Blissey was at its peak in this metagame. Finally, in DPP Blissey saw less use than in the previous generation, but it was still the face of stall and paired with Skarmory became a one-two combo that only MixApe and MixTar could reliably break through. In fact the main strategy with which to beat stall in DPP was to first remove Blissey. It is the single greatest wall Pokemon has ever seen. The fact that SkarmBLISS has been a major definitive strategy in the past two generations alone shows how much of a presence Blissey has been in the above metagames.
  16. Borat

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    Blissey isn't top 15 in GSC, let alone top 2-3. Usage stats mean very little in deprecated gens.
  17. Danilo

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    Yeah Blissey sucks. It's v good in ADV and good in DPP but it sucks in GSC, doesnt exist in RBY, and isn't v good in bw if that matters
  18. meteor64

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    Would just like to point out here that Skarmbliss isn't much of a combo as it is a term of frustration used by kids who dont know how to build teams. Sure, they're the two most dedicated walls to exist in their respective fields, but that in no way means they go exceedingly well together- they present no offense, and consequently have no win condition between them, aside from Bliss waking up a resting skarm they have no real synergy, and they don't even wall top threats such as DDtar, Cune, FBMence, odd Gengar variants. I don't even think 2 pokemon can constitute as a significant defensive core in the first place, you can't deal with the majority of the meta using 8 moves.

    Yeah. Offtopic rant about Skarmbliss. Its not a combo and I wish people would stop saying so. That said, Adv Bliss is pretty damn good, not top 10 material, but not far off either. Calm Mind being so popular atm is really shedding off the conception that Bliss is a completely stallish mon, and it really is the most reliable answer to things like non-Roar Cune, Raikou, etc.

    In GSC its pretty shitty though, and I have no idea about DPP.

    One question, do we consider Chansey as "Blissey" for RBY? Cause if so that would definitely put it up there somewhere imo.
  19. Jorgen

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    No. This was brought up earlier in the thread and Jellicent made the executive decision to say that Chansey != Blissey.
  20. Lavos Spawn

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    I dont like that decision at all, rby chansey is basically blissey anyways. calling it an executive decision doesnt make it a right decision.

    And remind me again why bliss isnt getting a top 10 spot? its one of the few pokemon we have left that arent on the list that has actually been a huge presence in two or more gens, not counting bw. I feel like blissey is the strongest option we have left for rank 7-10 material, that and cune (celebi is iffy for me). I dont know how this list is ever going to be completed if we're rejecting such a definitive pokemon like blissey. pick your battles
  21. kd24

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    rby chansey is nothing like gsc blissey. the special split completely changed how it operates as a mon. and i'll battle vs blissey - it's been important for stall but other than that there has never been anything definitive about it. to be quite honest, the only blissey that really is a significant threat is cm blissey in adv. in dp and bw, it's annoying if you cant get past it so it's solid for laddering, but good players take advantage of a momentum stopper like blissey - it lets heatran stealth rock, it lets lucario get a free crunch in for ghosts, or a swords dance for sweeping, it was worse vs calm mind + rest mons because it couldn't make room for cm when it has to worry about the big boost to physical attackers. most of the top mons can absolutely brutalize it. It takes a dedicated team to really be successful on (stall) but it just sucks as a stand-alone without that support. I see the other mons on this list and say this shit is going to kill me if i don't play around it. I see blissey and say how can i abuse this? that is what makes the difference for me.
  22. Crackstar

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    While I agree with this, I still have to say Blissey is a dominating presence in Gens 3 + 4, as it is the one thing that walls more pokemon completely than anything else. It does give set-up opportunities, but it punks a lot of shit nontheless. Also, this may be a bad idea, but I think we can use the criteria and ideas we found in this thread and expand it to a longer list with Gen 5 and more pokemon that were introduced later. From what I saw, consistency was a factor, but the dominating pokemon that weren't as good in later gens were valued too, so we would have to figure out a way to balance that with newer Gen pokemon. Any ideas?
  23. Borat

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    Celebi is better than Blissey in every gen they were in.
  24. Hemp Man

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    I think D/P era Celebi is underrated, the thing is so damn diverse that it can successfully pull off many sets. Sure Pursuit became popular in this gen because of the Physical/Special set, but even Tyranitar and Scizor were not safe counters due to fear of Grass Knot or Hidden Power Fire.
  25. Bent1ey

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    Maybe Salamence?

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