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All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Chansey and Blissey are being counted as separate entities, so they've yet to make it onto the list. I can definitely see Blissey making top 10, though; it's still the supreme special sponge of 3 generations.

    Raikou is not that great in DPP. It's not terrible, and did well enough in UU to get booted to BL, but it's not dominant by any means.

    Also, for gen 4, I'd say it should look more like: Jirachi = Starmie > Skarmory = Suicune. Probably in that order of dominance, but Jirachi vs Starmie and Skarmory vs Suicune are at least debatable.
  2. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Just Blissey since it's actually used in more than one gen. And it's not on the list yet because of the very fact that Chansey != Blissey.

    EDIT: ninja'd
  3. Timmyfuu

    Timmyfuu

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    I almost want to put blissey at #7 Instead of suicune.
  4. Timmyfuu

    Timmyfuu

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    Blissey has better recovery moves than suicune, both are great walls. But I don't think suicune has wish. Blissey supports the can support other pokemon on the team, suicune not quite as much. I've never played ADV too much. but I would vote:

    Starmie #5
    Skarmory #6
    and maybe blissey for #7
  5. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Gonna move this on a bit, as Starmie and Skarmory seem to be agreed upon by most. We're now looking at:

    1) Snorlax
    2) Tyranitar
    3) Zapdos
    4) Gengar
    5) Starmie
    6) Skarmory

    #7-10 Debate: LGI!
  6. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    No, theres no way skarm and starm have dominated more than Suicune.
    Starm maybe because RBY, but not Skarm. In ADV Suicune is much better than Skarm.
    I would lock top 7 though
  7. skulltula

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    I think we're forgetting dragonite in here somewhere, no matter what gen you play Dnite is always a sick pokemon to use
  8. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I like Suicune for #7. While whether or not Skarm is "better" than Cune in any given gen is highly debatable, but what can't be denied is that Skarm has always dominated in a specific and crucial niche, whereas Suicune was always an excellent mon that was nonetheless replaceable without altering the very nature of the team because its niche wasn't nearly as defined.

    As for #8, I like Forretress. All it's ever had is hazards, but it's arguably been the best hazard setter in every gen it's appeared in. Whether it was worth giving up the defensive or offensive synergy for its Spiking prowess has always been another story, but as far as pure hazard-setting is concerned, nothing compares with Forr historically.

    Forr has usually competed very closely with Cloy for the hazard-setting role, and at least in GSC Cloy was better as an all-around Pokemon (although solely in terms of the Spikes game, Forr was a bit better). I still like putting Forr on the list before we consider Cloy though. Cloy is kind of a peripheral option in RSE whereas Forr is pretty central to the Spikes game. While Forr is not existent in RBY, Cloy has historically not been a preferred option in RBY and faces a lot of competition for a team slot. Plus in DPP Forr is good and Cloy is... well, not very.
  9. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    7 - Suicune
    8 - Celebi
    9-10 - Two of Dragonite, Blissey, Cloyster, Forretress.

    Suicune's an excellent mon all around. I feel MD overrates it just a little bit, but no doubt it belongs in the #5-8 slot.

    Celebi is Celebi. Even if we don't count it in second gen due to its uber status, having two gens worth of controversy (I recall talks of trying to ban Celebi some time during 3rd gen's hey day. Might have just been certain sites/servers, though) says something. It's a tough tank to break down and often requires specialized counters to prevent it from being a major thorn in the side. It's so versatile too. I'd honestly put it in 7th if I weren't afraid that M Dragon wouldn't murder me in my sleep.

    Dragonite's the weird, overlooked guy. RBY it was a threat due to Wrap, but it's generally banned or there's a gentleman's agreement not to use it, so you don't see it constantly on the top of the RBY charts. GSC it was a dangerous mixed sweeper, but anyone who's played long enough can tell you that mixed sweeping isn't the end-all strategy to wall-breaking, thus it falls short of having a true dominance factor. Its other utilities are lackluster overall, for what it is. In ADV it was overshadowed by Salamence. I still think it has some potential, but the lower speed and lack of a decent ability hurt its standing more than one would first think. DPP saw it become a monster with physical dragon moves, for the mos obvious part, giving it its time to shine. Point is, Draggy has always been good on paper with solid stats and good moves. It just couldn't push the envelope to become a top threat until it got Draco Meteor and physical Outrage/Dragon Claw under its belt.

    Blissey could get a spot for the same reason as Skarm, but it suffers more often from becoming setup bait for big offensive threats.

    Cloyster vs Forry is kinda tough. I feel like Cloyster's viability (however varied) through out all 4 gens balances out over the the disadvantages it has against Forry when filling out the same role in gens 2-4.
  10. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    For #8 - #10 I repost all the options

    Blissey is not very good in GSC, but it has a great impact in ADV and DP.

    Celebi is top 3 in ADV, and very good in DP

    Vaporeon is a big threat in GSC, and a very good bulky water in ADV/DP, giving Wish support too, but it sucks in RBY.

    Jolteon is decent in RBY, a good agility passer in GSC, and decent in ADV and DP.

    Dragonite is excellent in RBY (wrap), a good mixed sweeper in GSC, its decent in ADV and a monster in DP (especially after mence ban). It could easily be at least top 10.

    Heracross is decent in GSC and DP, and a huge threat in ADV.

    Forretress is a good option for a spiker + spinner in GSC; in ADV although it not a good spinner (unless it has pursuit support), it can spike and spin, and it has useful resistances; in DP it can set up all the hazards, and it can also spin.

    Cloyster is a great option in RBY vs snorlax/tauros and can clamp and explode; in GSC it's the best spiker, and has a good explosion (usually removing things like Starm/Lax), and can also spin; in ADV it is the only spiker in OU/BL that isnt trapped by Magne. It sucks in DP though.

    Machamp is not good in RBY, but its a huge threat in GSC and DP, and it can also be useful in ADV.

    Raikou is top 3 in GSC, a huge threat in ADV (it fears Duggy though), and it can also be dangerous in DP.

    Salamence didnt exist in GSC and RBY, but it was probably top 5/6 in ADV, and it was considered broken in DP. Maybe not top 10 because being present in 2 gens (but if we consider Celebi as Uber in GSC, Celebi is then in a similar case).



    What do you think about machamp? It could be #10
    Maybe:
    #8 Celebi
    #9 Dragonite
    #10 Machamp


    I dont like Forretress in any gen. In ADV and DP as a Spiker its worse than Skarm, and as a Spinner it p bad, because it will never beat Gengar (GSC/ADV), and it will have a very hard time with rotom-a (DP).

    Im not sure about Celebi, it was OU in only 2 gens
  11. Jorgen

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    Machamp does not belong on this list. It was only good in GSC and DPP, and was only resoundingly OU in the latter. Otherwise it sucked. Hard.
  12. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    Vaporeon is *ok* in ADV. Compared to other bulky waters its overall outclassed when it has to come and take damage. Even then, it doesn't really influence the game enough to work around it to add to its dominance factor. Overall I'd disagree with nominating it, Machamp, Heracross, and Jolteon.
  13. Slobroking

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    7 Suicune
    8 Celebi
    9 Blissey
    10 Cloyster

    --
    Suicune is a great phazer and tank in GSC. It's great at what it does, although it's movepool is pretty bland outside of Roar.

    It's a beast in RSE with Calm Mind. It can even win against Zapdos if it gets a boost while it switches in, as long as Zapdos doesn't get a crit. Sandstream cripples its ability to take hits though. It can still easily sweep your team if you're not prepared for it.

    In DPP it can't really tank as well with higher BP attacks, Life Orb, Stealth Rock in it's way. But it still functions well as a special sweeper with Calm Mind + 3 attacks.
    --
    Celebi is definitely top 3 in RSE. Celebi does not die, ever. It can be very annoying with Leech Seed, and downright devestating with Baton Pass and either Calm Mind or Swords Dance. It isn't really affected by Sandstream thanks to Leech Seed and Recover.

    Celebi isn't as good in DPP with physical Pursuit, and Scizor and Heatran dominating the meta, but it has the movepool to work around it's counters if it wants to. Still very usable, especially with new toys like Thunder Wave and Stealth Rock.

    Celebi is overall better than Suicune but Suicune edges out Celebi because you could actually use it in GSC.
    --
    Blissey would've been top 3 easily if Chansey was included. Even though Blissey is horrid in GSC, and easily counterable in both RSE and DPP, it still deserves top 10 placing because it's just so centralizing and the reason why all-out special attackers aren't effective.
    --
    Either Cloyster or Forretress for the #10 spot. I'm leaning towards Cloyster but it's really a tossup.

    Cloyster is better in RBY by default, and GSC. Forretress is decent in GSC, better in RSE, and much better in DPP thanks to Sandstream immunity and far more resistances. Forretress is a much better physical wall, whereas in RSE and DPP, Cloyster can't really wall for shit. But Cloyster isn't setup bait like Forretress, and can use the common Swampert as an opportunity to setup Spikes. It isn't trapped by Magneton either.

    Cloyster wins IMO because it was pretty good in RBY, and DPP is the only gen where Forretress is really better.
  14. Borat

    Borat

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    I'm against all 2-gen pokemon (adv and later). Unless we're talking like top 1-3 in both gens. Which isn't really the case with any of them. Snorlax and ttar are probably the only two repeats in the top 3 category in ever.
  15. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Yeah celebi is not even top 10 in DP though.
    Dnite, Bliss and Vappy/Cloy/Celebi
  16. Hipmonlee

    Hipmonlee Have a rice day
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    Cloyster has to be off this list surely. It has really only been top tier once.. And its not like it was that great in GSC..

    When I say top tier I dont mean like the pokemon that are OU but have about a quarter the usage of other OU pokes.
  17. Crystal_

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    Suicune should be #7.

    Celebi/Bliss is a toss up for #8/#9. I'm probably inclined towards Celebi because it was sorta just not given the chance to excel in GSC!

    What about Exeggutor? It's arguably top 4 in both RBY and GSC, at least top 5. But how much does it suck in ADV/DP anyway?
    I like Cloyster too. I'd place it inside the top ten in both RBY and GSC, it's pretty decent in ADV too.
    Unsure about Dnite. But I'm sure that's because I'm not familiar with DP and thus I'm inevitably biased towards 1-3 gens... where it's surpassed by Cloy/Egg.
    Forr I think should go behind Cloy.
    Raikou is interesting. How good is it in DP?
  18. Borat

    Borat

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    Egg is pretty neglected. Egg's 4/5 in RBY and 4/5 in GSC. That's probably as good as it gets for 2 gens.
  19. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Ok, so for #8-#10 its basically Blissey, Celebi, Dragonite, Cloyster.

    I would say Dnite, Bliss, Cloyster, in that order, because Celebi was only OU in 2 gens, and in DP it wasnt even top 10.
  20. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Ugh this is getting really difficult. At the end of the day the things competing for 8-10 all kinda blur together in terms of "dominance" and some honorable mentions might be in order.

    Exeggutor is interesting. Mandatory in RBY, and definitely a top threat in GSC. The problem is, a Pokemon being garbage in 2 gens after its dominance is worse than one not existing for 2 gens prior to its dominance. At least in the latter case you can give that Pokemon the benefit of the doubt. I know I prefer mons on this list to actually stand out as a top-top threat in a metagame, let alone two, but at the end of the day, a certain degree of consistency is required for a Pokemon to be on this list, something Egg just doesn't have. I vote nay to Egg.

    Dragonite has no place here. It's mediocre in GSC and ADV, it's definitely an off-beat option in RBY that wasn't even recognized as a threat for most of its history, and in DPP its greatness waxed and waned with bans and the distribution of Outrage. It's never really had footing as a dominant force until very late DPP. Nay for Dnite.

    As for Cloyster, I'll agree with Hip. Cloyster is only a "solid" OU in GSC, even there it's more that Spikes are OU rather than Cloyster itself (and Cloyster isn't necessarily even the best Spikes-layer). Everywhere else it's second-class OU at best. Nay for Cloyster.

    Celebi I'll have to reject too. I was under the impression that we weren't going to count Celebi in GSC, because if we did it'd be a lot higher than #8. If you discount GSC, it's top 3 in ADV and mid-tier OU in DPP. It's a lot like Jirachi who's mid-tier OU in ADV and top-tier OU in DPP. Neither, I think, has a strong enough showing in merely 2 gens to be considered for this list (I'd agree with Borat that you'd need to really dominate those two gens to make your way onto this list). Nay to Celebi. And nay to Jirachi, too.

    Not a big Raikou fan myself. It's top 3 in GSC and definitely a big threat in ADV, but in ADV it's closer to mid-tier OU than high-tier and in DPP it's not OU at all. Nay to Raikou.

    So, what do I like for this list? Well,

    Blissey - The claims of it being garbage in GSC are exaggerated. I mean, let's get this clear, it's not that great, but it's definitely mid-to-low tier OU in GSC and has a lot of historical usage. Plus it's one of two Heal Bellers and, unlike Miltank, the things Blissey walls are walled forever, regardless of status or Spikes or crits or anything. It definitely shapes the nature of offense in GSC. As far as ADV and DPP are concerned, it's a highly-used, extremely dominant Special Wall. Nothing Special sponges like Blissey, and its dominance in this niche has made it extremely relevant in every generation it's appeared.

    Forretress - I said it before, but here's a quick recap: the ultimate Spiker. Granted, there's always been competition, but Forretress' combination of Spikes, Spin, and typing have always made it arguably the best hazard setter available in every OU metagame it's appeared. Its dominance in this niche can't be denied, even if it is ultimately a role player.

    I know I said I'd go with Forr at #8, but I'd probably go with Bliss at #8 and Forr at #9 now that I think about it.

    Looking back on it, that's only 2 things I really like, and they're more niche Pokemon than the other stuff on this list. But I feel like if a Pokemon dominates a niche so resoundingly, even though it's not dominating every phase of the game the same way Snorlax or Tyranitar is, I'd say it deserves to be put on this list before an Exeggutor who had the every-phase domination thing for 2 gens but then fell off the face of the earth, or a Raikou who really only had the every-phase domination thing going for it for one gen.

    As for #10, well, I'm still trying to decide what I might like, so consider my "nay" votes above as only pertaining to inclusion among the top 9. Except for Dnite and Cloy, they honestly have no business here.
  21. Borat

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    If it's a question/competition of dominance, there's NO WAY exeggutor doesn't even get a mention. There's literally no other pokemon that's unquestionably top 5 in two gens other than lax/ttar.

    And if we were using the historical argument for blissey, then exeggutor needs to have the historical argument for its gen 3 showing. In any case, Exeggutor in either RBY or GSC dominated more than blissey/forretress/dragonite in any gen (there's a case for gen 4 dnite).

    The way I see it, something with a top 3 showing even in one generation exhibits more "dominance" than something that's consistently mediocre throughout.
  22. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Exeggutor is worse than terrible in ADV and DP
  23. Myzozoa

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    Skarmory, Gengar, Tyranitar are my top 3. Gengar has been good since the beginning, and Skarm has been the dominant physical wall and phazer since it's introduction. Tyranitar was Game Freaks answer to psychic types after ADV, but it really became a force on the metagame in DPP. In ADV it was still important, just not as important as after pursuit became physical. Gengar has been in OU forever, and it's always had a niche and a high usage spot even if it wasn't a dominant feature of any metagame.

    After that Salamence, though banned in dpp, was very influential for a long time, and it was a real threat in ADV as it is now in BW. It is an easy 4th. Blissy and Chansey should each have a place somewhere in the top 10 as should Rotom-a, even though it is a recent addition.

    My top 10 would look like:

    1. Tyranitar
    2. Skarmory
    3. Gengar
    4. Salamence
    5. Chansey
    6. Blissy
    7. Rotom-a
    8. Celebi
    9. Suicune
    10. Forretress
  24. Crystal_

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    this is merely a dp top ten right?

    Either way #1 to #6 is already locked.
  25. Worldtour

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    There is no way Rotom-A, which existed for one generation, belongs on this list. It didn't even exist for one generation now that I think about it since it only appeared in Platinum onward.

    I agree with Suicune at #7, but as for the others...

    Blissey should definetly be #8 if Chansey is included as Blissey. It is OU in every generation counting Chansey, but it never really was doninant at any given time other than RBY. However, what it does have is it makes a lot of Pokemon think about "how the hell am I going to beat that pink blob..." when they decide what they are going to do in battle. Gengar using Focus Punch is mostly for Blissey. SubCM with a lot of HP EVs is mainly due to Seismic Toss, which is only used by Blissey (Or SubPunchers, which use this as a benchmark). Pretty much every special attacker is annoyed by or fears Blissey, which I think is enough for it to be #8.


    I'm leaning toward Forretress at #9 due to how often it is an entry hazard mon and how important they are historically and Raikou or Celebi at #10. I wouldn't mind Dragonite showing up but Cloyster and Exeggutor have been pretty bad often. Eggy sucked in ADV and DP and Cloyster sucked in DP, w/out Clamp is does in RBY, and its only OK in ADV.

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