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All Gens The Most Dominant Pokemon in History - #9-10 Position Debate

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Jellicent, Sep 10, 2012.

  1. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    In RBY Gengar is in no way outclassed by Psychic-types. It serves a unique niche as fastest sleeper, Explosion absorber, and that thing that forces Tauros and Snorlax to run Earthquake (well, okay, Counter Chansey plays a role in that regard, too).

    In GSC Misdreavus is actually the premier spin blocker, Gengar is more prized for his offensive versatility.

    In ADV Gengar is the bomb, unlike Dusclops it can actually kill shit, so it's usually the preferred spinblocker nowadays. The introduction of EVs and that new Ground immunity to abuse made Special Sweeping not much of a problem, even without STAB, as long as Blissey/Snorlax weren't around, and even then it had ways around those with Sub+Focus Punch, Taunt + WoW, Dbond, and Explosion.

    I don't know much about DPP but I think Gengar manages to shore up most of its issues with those immunities and that fast Substitute. Plus it still has a very versatile movepool as always, sure it no longer has SE coverage against literally everything but it still gets Pain Split, Explosion, Focus Punch, and Hypnosis. Gengar has never been solely about attacking prowess (how could it be without a STAB this whole time), but rather all the other toys it gets to wreck special walls, too.

    Gengar is not problematic at #4 at all.
  2. Borat

    Borat

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    Wait, so what's the verdict on GSC celebi? Celebi is a easy 3, maybe a 2, if it had GSC under its belt.
  3. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    Zapdos is #3, Gengar is #4, Suicune should be #5, Celebi/Starmie #6 and #7, Skarm #8

    Suicune vs Celebi
    GSC: Both are great walls in GSC (although Celebi got banned). Celebi has better support options. Celebi wins.
    ADV: Suicune can take hits better, and it has an easier time sweeping (Crocune can take nearly anything and sweep. It can beat even things with electric STAB if they switch into the first CM; Offensive Suicune with or without Sub can easily destroy stall, especially with Sub blocking Toxic and Leech Seed), it also beats most set uppers with CM + Roar. Celebi, while less bulky, it has some key resistances, the CM set can be really good too (not as good as CMcune though), and it has much better support options than Suicune: Perish Song, Heal Bell, Baton Pass, Leech Seed... Suicune wins slightly, but both are top 3 ADV mons though.
    DP: CMcune is still a huge threat (especially the offensive version), while Celebi is used more as a support mon. Suicune wins.


    Celebi vs Starmie
    RBY: Starmie wins, since Celebi didnt exist
    GSC: Starmie is mainly used as a spinner, while Celebi was an awesome support mon. Celebi wins
    ADV: No contest here, easy win for Celebi
    DP: Starmie wins. It is a monster with LO, especially vs offensive teams, and it's also a key part of defensive teams as a spinner.
  4. Borat

    Borat

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    You're underrating celebi in GSC. Celebi is FAR AND AWAY better anything that's not snorlax (and on some levels, better than snorlax as well), much MUCH better than Zapdos. I'm willing to say Celebi in GSC >>>> ttar in ADV.
  5. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    I disagree, I dont think GSC Celebi > ADV t-tar (i cant really have an opinion here though), and well, I said celebi wins vs Suicune and Starm in GSC xD, but it doesnt exist in RBY (while Starm was at least top 10), it is a bit worse than Suicune in ADV, and it is worse than both Starm and Suicune in DP
  6. Borat

    Borat

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    Celebi is stupidly dominant in GSC. It would completely alter GSC's metagame and its rankings. If celebi were to come back given today's knowledge of players and the metagame, stall is the ONLY way to play. Celebi would utterly break the metagame, and in that sense, it's more "dominant" than snorlax. Snorlax aids both sides of the metagame, and having it available just means an overall power creep. Celebi would just... flip the metagame upside down, completely and utterly. It's not only better than adv ttar, it's not even on the same level as adv ttar. One is a good pokemon, one is a metagame in and of itself.

    Comparing each of their dominant gens:

    Celebi in gen 2 >>>>>> ttar in gen 3
    Celebi in gen 3 < ttar in gen 4 (idk anything about gen 4)
    Celebi in gen 4 > ttar in gen 2
  7. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

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    One thing Celebi has over Suicune is that Celebi has always been more diverse (well, except maybe GSC, as I'm not too knowledgeable about competitive GSC).
  8. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    I kinda just want to move on from Celebi. If I had to vote I'd say to not count GSC for Celebi since it was apparently banned before people were smart enough to abuse it to its fullest. Without GSC Celebi does not make it on this list. This would also put my votes for Zapdos at #3, Gengar at #4, and Starmie at #5.
  9. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    GSC t-tar is better than DP celebi xD
    You cant really compare in diff gens though.
    And I would say that DP t-tar is better than ADV celebi, or at least a very close matchup.

    T.tar is much more dominant than Celebi, and Celebi was Uber most of GSC though.

    So #5 would be Starm vs Suicune.
    RBY: Starm wins
    GSC: Starm is worse taking hits, but it can spin. Suicune is much better taking hits, it can Roar, Toxic, Mirror Coat (lures electrics)... both can be very important, but I would say Suicune wins.
    ADV: Easy for Suicune.
    DP: Another difficult matchup. In DP Starm is a huge threat vs offensive teams with LO, and its also key spinning. Suicune is a powerful bulky sweeper, and defensive sets can still work (and very well).
  10. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Ugh, I could have sworn that I posted this a couple days ago v.v

    So, Celebi prior to its ban in GSC counts, but not how it would theoretically play in the current metagame. Zapdos and Gengar are locked in at 3 and 4, as I don't see anything really surpassing them.

    Also, a few of you said you don't have much knowledge of DPP, so I'll weigh in a bit on how our four contenders played there~

    • Starmie: Great offensive spinner and threat in general; could even invest a bit in bulk, but it's offensive sets were more dominant. An easy top 10 mon in the tier ^.^
    • Celebi: Versatile enough to pull it's weight for offense and stall, and had perfect synergy with Heatran, the top mon in the tier. It didn't exactly dominate, but it was still a solid OU :3
    • Suicune: Had a lot of competitors for the "bulky Water" role; it was the best choice if you needed a specially offensive tank, but CroCune ain't what it used to be. It was still a solid Pokemon that could tear unprepared teams apart, but it didn't dominate >.>
    • Skarmory: Still the same old Skarmory: bulky as hell and sets up Spikes, except now it had instant recovery in Roost. It was a top of the line wall to be sure, especially when Garchomp was in the meta :P
  11. Borat

    Borat

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    I'm not sure how that would work still.

    Celebi's ban was on and off for different servers for as long as I can remember.
  12. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Go by officially supported Smogon servers for it, I guess. If Celebi was always banned on Smogon servers (not actually sure of this myself; I haven't been around that long >.>), then it has no OU presence in GSC for the purpose of this :/

    Also, moving this along to #5-7, which I'm guessing will most likely be filled out by 3 of our current frontrunners (Starmie, Suicune, Skarmory, and Celebi~)
  13. Jorgen

    Jorgen World's Strongest Fairy
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    Starmie for 5 because of very strong RBY and DPP presences and its integral role as a spinner in the GSC and ADV metagames. Its existence is the main thing motivating Chansey usage in RBY (even though Lapras is what should be scaring people into using Chansey), and in DPP it's just plain fantastic as a LO sweeper or a defensive spinner or even as a stallbreaker thanks to Trick.

    This is followed closely by Skarm for 6. It's been the premier physical wall in every metagame it's graced. I think the main thing that keeps me from putting it over Starmie is that in GSC what made it so good wasn't so much its own attributes but rather how fantastic Snorlax was. So while it's arguably a top 5 mon in GSC, that's really deceiving because it's merely reacting to the most dominant Pokemon in any OU metagame rather than setting the tone itself. Also not being in RBY hurts it too.

    After that Suicune works, there's nothing more deserving imo. I might be short-selling Suicune here, I mean it's always been a relevant threat since its introduction, but it's never really defined any single aspect of its metagame as much as Starmie or Skarm has. While it's always been a defensive juggernaut, there's always been other things that could wall what it could, granted not with the same breadth of defensive coverage but usually with better defensive characteristics against the threats that mattered more. Also, while it CMs in later gens, I get the impression that these CM cunes are much better on paper than in practice. Much like Tobybro.

    Also for #8 Blissey should be considered. Granted it was Chansey in RBY so it doesn't count and in GSC it sucked balls, but it makes a very strong ADV showing and of course is the definitive special wall of DPP.
  14. M Dragon

    M Dragon The north wind
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    I think Suicune > Skarm.

    Suicune vs Starm for #5 I dont really know, any of them could easily be #5.

    They are pretty similar in all gens (except ADV where Suicune is much better), but Suicune didnt exist in RBY, while Starm was top 10.

    Some candidates for #8, #9 and #10:
    Blissey is not very good in GSC, but it has a great impact in ADV and DP.

    Celebi is top 3 in ADV, and very good in DP

    Vaporeon is a big threat in GSC, and a very good bulky water in ADV/DP, giving Wish support too, but it sucks in RBY.

    Jolteon is decent in RBY, a good agility passer in GSC, and decent in ADV and DP.

    Dragonite is excellent in RBY (wrap), a good mixed sweeper in GSC, its decent in ADV and a monster in DP (especially after mence ban). It could easily be at least top 10.

    Heracross is decent in GSC and DP, and a huge threat in ADV.

    Forretress is a good option for a spiker + spinner in GSC; in ADV although it not a good spinner (unless it has pursuit support), it can spike and spin, and it has useful resistances; in DP it can set up all the hazards, and it can also spin.

    Cloyster is a great option in RBY vs snorlax/tauros and can clamp and explode; in GSC it's the best spiker, and has a good explosion (usually removing things like Starm/Lax), and can also spin; in ADV it is the only spiker in OU/BL that isnt trapped by Magne. It sucks in DP though.

    Machamp is not good in RBY, but its a huge threat in GSC and DP, and it can also be useful in ADV.

    Raikou is top 3 in GSC, a huge threat in ADV (it fears Duggy though), and it can also be dangerous in DP.

    Salamence didnt exist in GSC and RBY, but it was probably top 5/6 in ADV, and it was considered broken in DP. Maybe not top 10 because being present in 2 gens (but if we consider Celebi as Uber in GSC, Celebi is then in a similar case)
  15. Borat

    Borat

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    Starmie is a lock for 5.

    I like Skarm for 6, suicune close by.

    I don't think Celebi is even in the discussion without GSC. I like Vap for 7; not to be biased and all, but Vap is great.
  16. Hipmonlee

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    I would like to put in a word for jirachi. At the moment we are talking about pokemon that have never dominated anything. I personally am pretty unimpressed with DP starmie, I think it was more dominant in rby than dp, and it wasnt really all that dominant in rby.

    Skarmory at least forced the metagame to work around it. It is the number one spiker in DP and in Advance, and spikes is the most significant move. And in GSC it is as good as Starmie has ever been.

    This is kinda why I think Starmie is best in RBY. It didnt really dominate because the metagame adapted around it, but it kicked more things out of OU than any other pokemon.

    But what I really wanted to suggest was Jirachi. It only had two gens, but it was top tier in both, and unlike Suicune or Starmie it actually dominated.
  17. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    Jirachi is definitely an interesting option... While it only existed for ADV and DPP, its dominance is pretty hard to deny.

    I like the idea of Starmie at #5, Borat. Few Pokemon have stood the test of time as well as it; it's certainly a great offensive presence and among the best (if not the best) offensive spinners ever. There's definitely a reason this thing has been nothing but OU every generation.

    Skarmory is also quite metagame defining. It's been the go-to physical tank since GSC, and one of the best Spikes users to be found in ADV and DPP. This niche allows it to function on offense, stall, and balance alike :3
  18. Timmyfuu

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    I think the bird of steel should be #6
    Mostly because I think "legendary" pokemon are for noobs, but also because I think suicune could be more easily replaced when making a team.

    Skarmory and Suicune are both great, they have both been in OU for 3 generations.
    But in BW, suicune dropped to uu annnd skarmory didn't. So I think skarmory is better than suicune
  19. Umby

    Umby I'm gonna bury you in the ground~
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    This discussion doesn't include BW.
  20. Timmyfuu

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    true, but I still think suicune wasn't quite as good in DPP as skarmory. Skarmory has nine resistances and two immunities. Suicune has 4 resistances. One of those resistances is fire, a type of pokemon that a lot of people don't even like to use unless they are a charizard fanboy such as myself.

    I WILL say that I find suicune to be slightly more versatile than skarmory. I think both pokemon are fantastic walls. I think suicune is a slightly better attacker.

    but like I said earlier, suicune can be replaced. how about vaporeon or milotic. Those are two water types that are pretty good at stopping attacks? Skarmory can be replaced by ummm MAYBE scizor? MAYBE mantine? I don't even like mantine because it's an inferior version of gyrados (who should also be in top 10)

    So between suicune and skarmory, it just seems logical to pick the bird of steel
  21. Jorgen

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    Mantine eh I should try that sometime

    for real (open)
    No but seriously are we voting on this yet? My votes are for Starmie #5, Skarm #6. Suicune for #7 because it is great in GSC thru DPP. Suicune is better than Jirachi is in ADV (it's honestly not that dominant in ADV), although in DPP Jirachi is very versatile and very good. I'm definitely open to considering Jirachi for the list, but not quite top 7 (or even a lock for top 10) because 2 gens is not enough time imo.
  22. Jellicent

    Jellicent ~the spirit who loves spirits~
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    I'm personally digging Jorgen's proposal of Starmie at 5, Skarmory at 6, and Suicune at 7. Is anyone really opposed to that? If not, we can move this along to the final 3~
  23. Crystal_

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    Gen 1: Starmie >> Suicune = Skarm = Jirachi
    Gen 2: Skarm > Suicune > Starmie >> Jirachi
    Gen 3: Suicune > Skarm >= (?) Jirachi > Starmie
    Gen 4: Starmie > Jirachi = Suicune > Skarm ???

    Given that, I'd say Starmie should get #5, I'd say it deserves more credit for existing in RBY than Skarm/Suicune for being top in gens 2/3 (Starmie is still middle-OU in both afterall).
    Followed by... Suicune? That one's hard though. At least I think both skarm and cune should clearly go before jirachi.

    And what about Raikou? How good is it in gen 4? It should go before Jirachi imo.

    And the already mentioned Chansey/Blissey/Chanseyblissey. Or is it #5 already?

    EDIT
    : I'm happy with Skarm at 6.
  24. Hipmonlee

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    Neither of the waters are as good as either of the steels in either gen 3 or gen 4.

    I definitely thing Jirachi is far more deserving than Suicune.
  25. Timmyfuu

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    hmmmm do I like starm more than I like skarm? uhh yeaaahhhh I guess so. Starmie can rapid spin, which is important because all these stall teams are so popular. so I'd give starmie #5 and skarmory #6.

    As for suicune #7 uhmmm idk. This MIGHT be because I hate legendary pokemon, but I think there must be some other pokemon for the spot. any other nominations for #7?

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