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Gen 5 The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

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  1. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    TBH I don't know how either. Though I guess in theory (and lol theory) its LO Hydration set can be useful.

    Also I didn't noticed this until now but Xatu over Espeon in the tier list? I always thought (even in early BW1) that Xatu was extremely underrated but I cannot say that it's better than Espeon. x_x
  2. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    But even that set has a difficult time actually tanking things in this metagame, especially with genesect running everywhere. You're right that it is necessary on BP chains, but I don't think that they're common enough to keep Vaporeon's usage up that much. Hmm....
  3. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

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    Agreeing that Vaporeon's niche in OU is really suffering this gen. I'd agree with it being moved to D rank.

    Really like to see the remainder of OU and BL on the list, being Mamoswine (projected A rank), Kyurem (projected C/D rank), Wobbuffet (projected C/D rank) and Staraptor (projected C rank). since we are so close to having premilinary spots for all OU and BL. Then we can worry about Pokemon who may need to move up and down (Vapor, Celebi, Vena etc).
  4. ClubbingSealCub

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    well for starters, Xatu is bulkier.

    It also gets Roost, so it doesn't need to rely on crappy Morning Sun for recover. Heat Wave and U-turn too, which is freakin' great. Quad resisting Fighting attacks and putting a full stop to any Breelom that lacks Stone Edge is also a great plus.
  5. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    I really wouldn't call Xatu "bulkier". 65/70/70 (Xatu) isn't all that bulkier than 65/60/90.

    U-Turn, Heat Wave and the quad resist to fighting are nice but does that really mean it should be a tier above Espeon?
  6. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    It's defensive stats are similar, but Xatu runs significant bulk, where Espeon typically runs none. Nonetheless, I don't think Espeon is any worse than Xatu, really. Xatu has access to u-turn, which is great, but Espeon is probably one of the best dual screeners, if not the best, right now, and I think it deserves some credit for that.
  7. Bossness

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    I dont agree with Kyurem being C/D. You are considering placing it in D when at the same time you think Staraptor should be in C. Now I am not a very good poster here but I have been playing for two years and I can confidently say that Kyurem deserves to be in B. It got Roost and Earth Power from BW2 and it has the ability to beat Rain team easily. It has better coverage than Latios and also has the ability to beat Chansey. It neutrality to ice is crucial in a metagame where Genesect and Mamoswine are the best ways to revenge kill Dragon-types. It can actually roost on Genesect's common moves to regain health. It can also beat Jirachi which Latios cannot do. Kyurem can also act like a stallbreaker of sorts. Hippowdon teams will almost always lose to Kyurem. Kyurem doesnt need weather-reliant coverage moves like Latios(Surf,HP fire) to beat steel types. As I said, I dont post often so I will just leave the following replays to show how good Kyurem is:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest3026885 - this was vs Taylor. I would have won if I had known that Kyurem outsped his Genesect. I didnt have Iron Head on Jirachi during the match. Kyurem's bulk allows it to wall timid Rock Polish Gensect. Taylor was using modest Genesect.
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2717893
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2452599 - this guy agrees that Kyurem is underrated
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2496177
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2458104 - vs ganj4lf. Kyurem stalled out starmie and didnt even need leftovers to do it.
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2565494 - Kyurem annoys stall.
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/ou2552155 - Kyurem leads vs sun team and proceeds to "pressure" the opposition.
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/oususpecttest3062315 - Jirachi isnt a good Kyurem check.
    I will try to get more logs if needed. This should do it for now.
  8. superbadd

    superbadd

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    You guys are forgetting that u-turn doesn't allow xatu to escape pursuit, while espeon's baton pass can. Espeon's HP fire is just a tiny bit weaker than xatu's heat weave because of espeon's 130 SpA vs xatu's 95 SpA. Espeon also has the distinction of not being weak to SR. Espeon's DS set also checks focus sash lead terrakion. With reflect, terrakion's SE does 44% max, while in return espeon does 82% minimum with psychic to that same terrakion! Espeon is also a better counter to deoxys-d because none of its moves hit it super effectively. I posted this before but it seems to have been missed...

    Nominating Espeon for A/B tier.
  9. Superpowerdude

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    I am sorry but i have to disagree with everyone who is laying hate on Vaporeon. While it is true its defensive sets may be hard to pull off in such an offensive metagame however if the Wish set is the only Vaporeon set you are aware of then clearly you are in no position to even be suggesting such a change. I have had a lot of succes with Life Orb Vaporeon. I am currently using a team around it that is 16-2 with one bullshit loss ;) Anyway rain boosted Life Orb boosted stab boosted Hydro Pump is extremely powerful and it often suprises the opponent as well for example my opponent has a +2 Conkeldurr keeps him in on Vaporeon only to be outsped and lose 100% of health to Hydro Pump. The same thing happens to the ever common Choice Bamd Scizor getting ohko'd from full health. Now Vaporeon obviously has flaws such as its low speed and reliance on rain, but then again every pokemon has its flaws and alot of pokemon e.g Venasaur are reliant on weather anyway. It may seem like i am hyping up Vaporeon but the truth is i'm not C rank is already a relatively bad ranking and Vaporeon definatly doesnt deserve D
  10. Alexander.

    Alexander. Banned deucer.

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    I agree with Superpowerdude, we must remember that Vaporeon has 110 Special Attack base, Work Up, a good bulkyness and Rest in combination with Hydration to have a good recovery move.

    The only bad thing is that it must work under rain...
  11. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex I asked Mawile to not hurt me. I was betrayed.
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    @superpowerdude- It's good to hear that you're doing well with it. What kind of support do you think makes vaporeon most successful right now?
  12. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Isn't LO Vaporeon like LO / Specs Gastrodon (without wish), but Gastro has the ability to fight volt-turn and the move counter (which pwns Genesect)?

    EDIT @ Alexander:

    You could say the same thing for any low speed sweeper (Conkeldurr, Tyranitar, Chandulure, Kyreum-B etc.) so your point is moot since anything is viable after passing it boosts.
  13. Alexander.

    Alexander. Banned deucer.

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    Maybe I'd use Vaporeon with an agility passer (Gliscor for example), it's very slow and if you want to sweep with it, the best way is have a +2 in Speed and +1 in Special Attack (Work Up). It's a very gimmick combination and I don't know if it can work well in the current metagame, I don't want to be pessimistic but probably it can't do it
  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Celebi is solid B tier. Even though it gets wrecked by many offensive pokes right now, especially Genesect and Torn-T, it still walls a ton of threats including any Keldeo, most Thund-T, SubCM Jirachi, special Lando and Starmie (a lot of offensive teams struggle with this). The fact that it lures Torn-T and Sect like the plague actually makes it an awesome lure for them, as all you need to do is throw a well timed T-Wave and bam, they are out of the game. Not to mention the utility he brings to the table, making it one of the few defensive pokes that doesn't worry about being set-up bait or doing nothing when he is in. SR, Perish Song and U-turn are the moves that do this, and are essential for the succes of any defensive Celebi (not all together of 'course). And he is one of the best pivots in the game!
  15. thebrownie

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    It's a great wall, but it doesn't really fit into any water teams since other water Pokemon can abuse rain better and because of that it's not seen much since taking on another electric/grass resistance on a water team sucks.
  16. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude A sunflower holds its head up high!
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    Well paralysis support is key in helping Vaporeon with its slow speed Ferrothorn synergizes well with Politoed and Vaporeon and provides Thunderwave and hazards support. Entry hazards also do help. Again i agree with you that the defensive Vaporeons do not work this meta but the Life Orb set is quite amazing and i urge you to try it! Jirachi is also great passing wishes paralysis, stealth rock etc.

    @Shurtugal I actually think Vaporeon is a better offensive tank then Gastrodon. Firstly 110 special attack is very deadly, and he does do somewhat ok against Vol turn as mentioned above he ohkos Scizor and outspeeds and genesect cant switch into a Hydro Pump. He also has better recovery than Gastrodon with Rest+Hydration healing all its hp. Oh and now the team is 17-2 ;)
  17. nygerman

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    Breloom for S

    Sporing a pokemon in this gen is equivalent of effectively removing it from the remainder of the game. Mach punch is useful to any team and Bullet seed with low sweep is just nasty. Breloom is guareenteed a kill on team anything any game provided that its used effectively
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    PK you still haven't put Hippo in A tier...
  19. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    There are two Pokemon who should probably get a ranking somewhere on this listing (despite being in the lower tiers):

    First up, Scrafty. This probably gets a high C rank in my book. As much as I like Scrafty (as reflected in my name), life's kinda difficult for the badass lizard. He has that Hurricane weakness which means Tornadus-T can beat Scrafty, and he's weak to Fighting. Nonetheless, he can be effective with the right support, and the DD set can be as deadly as ever, with two awesome STABs and Moxie. He does often get eclipsed in favor of Terrakion, who gets immediate power, but still, Scrafty can be effective in OU with the proper support. So solid high C.

    And next, Stoutland. Either a B or a C. This thing can be a monster in sand, with a Choice Band and a high Speed tier, combined with great coverage; it's no doubt Stoutland can easily be a force to reckoned with. But outside of sand, however, he's just a generic Normal-type like any other. Also, despite the fact that this terrier was blessed with two Sand summoners (Ttar and Hippo), it's gonna be hard to keep that sand up with rain, sun, and even hail running around. And Normal STAB isn't the best thing to have. So yeah, with that, I'd say something like a B or a C for the dog.
  20. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Choice Specs / LO at +1 (storm drain) is more powerful than Vap's SAtk, but it isn't true if it didn't get a drain bonus. It's healing is better, sure, but counter (for u-turn) and ground typing (for volt-switch) make it better for fighting against Volt-Switch, so please don't try and say Vap is good for that when Specs Rotom-W can either trick / vswitch for major damage. Also, Genesect can't switch into Gastrodon's surf OR U-turn on it, so Gastro beats it there. Storm Drain absorbs water hits whereas you can't... another rain fighting plus. Gastro doesn't rely on rain for KOs or for not being put to sleep.... another plus. What if you rest and the weather changes? Still think my point stands.
  21. gengarsnemisis

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    Not to mention that Espeon has a HUGE niche on baton pass teams. While not super common, bp is still an effective playstyle in this meta, and espeons magic bounce makes it a staple to these teams. A tier imo!
  22. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude A sunflower holds its head up high!
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    Ok first of Gastrodon is quite predictable nowadays so you cant just assume it will always have a storm drain boost. Secondly i think you are a little bit to worried about Volt Turn. Honestly Vaporeon makes Scizor and Genesect hard pressed to switch in and even if it didnt who gives a crap. Just because Gastrodon can stop Volturn doesnt mean all tanks have to. Latias gets screwed by U-turn and she is one of the better tanks in the tier. Also you cant possibly be argueing that Recover is better the Rest+Hydration if your opponemt brings in Tyranitar Hippowdon or Ninetales they a still have to worry about Hydro Pump and if Vappy is asleep who cares! You can just switch in Poltoed then go back to Vaporeon. The reason why Gastrodon is noy "on anothe level" is because Vaporeon has higher special attack much better recovery and suprise factor. He may not be able to fully handle volt turn but that is more of a team building issue then anything if you have a pokemon weak to volt turn than thats ok if your team is weak to volt turn thsn thats a different story. Infact Gastrodon cant even deal with Volturn because a choice banded Scizor and +1 Genesects U-turn will be doing heaps to Gastrodon and dont rven get me started on Counter counter makes Gastrodon move last making it have to sponge a powerful U-turn it might not even live anyway. Secondly who even uses Counter anyway? It is a waste of a move slot as you either miss out on recovery or coverage options so Counter Gastrodon is definatly out classed by Vaporeon it also seeems you are arguing with me for no reason almost like you are doing it just for fun remember this is ou viability rankings not vappy vs gastrodon. It is also worthy to note that i am nominating Vaporeon for C rank for petes sake! Not S not A not B, C! I have said all that i need to say and i dont want to mess up this project with irrelevant babble.
  23. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    Your missing my point entirely. Volt-Turn is so commonly used with Genesect around. How exactly is Specs Gastrodon predictable? Or the move counter? Please clarify there. Vaporeon also just falls to Scizor's U-turn since it does like 68% and outspeeds (same for Gene), and you are forced to keep resting. Which is bad since obviously they'll U-turn into Tyranitar and then your fucked. Latias is good because it CAN fight Volt-Turn, with access to Reflect, and resistance to Volt-Switch, and scarf HP Fire, it does indeed fight Volt-Turn (and great for hurting rain with its bulk whereas Vap can't take Hurricane or Volt-Switch). Even if Gastro doesn't have a Storm Boost, it's power isn't that far from Vaporeon and unless you have some notible KO's it can get that Gastro can't, than this point is also moot since Gastro can more or less can pull LO attacker / Specs much better than Vap. In a Volt-Turn infested metagame, I don't see how you "don't give a crap" if Vap can't threaten Sciz and Gene. Vap's a bulky tank, and so is Gastro, but my point was that Gastro has a huge advantage over Vap because it can fight two playstyle's (rain and volt-turn) really well while your Vap just hits hard.

    Note: Any sweeper with low speeds and high power appreciates TWave support and Hazards; I could say the same for both Conkeldurr and Tyranitar. So, my point is, Gastrodon also benefits from the very same suppport.
  24. alexwolf

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    Can anyone tell me why is Jolteon in B tier? Yeah awesome Speed, good STAB and power and shaky check to Torn-T. Crappy coverage and frailty prevent it from threatening most of today's teams imo. Even standard rain offense teams are not particularly troubled by it as most of them have Dugtrio, Ferrothorn, Gastrodon, Celebi, priority and scarfers, not to mention good checks, such as Lati@s and Mamoswine. And let's not forget Kyurem-B, which says a big fuck you to Jolteon. Imo he is tier, but maybe i am missing something. I just can't see him being in the same category with offensive behemoths such as Hydreigon, Venusaur, Alakazam and Lucario...
  25. Doughboy

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    Nominating Jolteon for C-tier

    While Jolteon has the niche of being the fastest Pokemon in OU, the team's that it would find itself on the most, rain, has found other tools to usurp paticularly Thunderus-T and Tornadus-T. Tornadus-T has become the late game cleaner of choice for rain teams. Both have 110 max neutral nature attack, but Tornadus-T has an arguebly better STAB to spam in Hurricane. Just like Jolteon with Volt Switch, Tornadus-T can maintain momentum with U-turn. However, Tornadus-T has the ability to circumvent Blissey/Chansey with a combination of Superpower, Taunt, and U-turn. It is also easier to reserve for late game thanks to more bulk and regenerator.

    What about powerful Electric attacker? Now Thunderus-T has stepped into the limelght. It can offer much better coverage than Jolteon and much better power. In addition, it can make an attempt to sweep much more seriously with Agility and more importantly Nasty Plot. Nasty Plot has the ability just to smash defensive teams to pieces. Overall, Thunderus-T's is a better attacker (i.e. making holes in teams and using its STAB) than Jolteon since it can circumvent usual Electric-resists with its increased coverage (grass knot and Focus Blast) and power

    edit: ninja'd by alexwolf >.<
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