The OU Viability Ranking thread

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by PK Gaming, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,802
    Garchomp is really awful in this metagame and does not deserve more than an A Rank in my eyes, B Rank seems better suited for it as a matter of fact. Garchomp does NOT, by any means, outclass Terrakion. It is slower, has less powerful dual STAB, and is weak to more of the OU metagame in general. It has an incredibly difficult time pulling off a sweep because it's so hard to get an SD off in the fast-paced offensive metagame we live in, and its Choice Scarf set is a joke, outclassed by Landorus and Genesect alike. Even the bulky SR set is outclassed by Landorus-T.

    Garchomp for B Rank. It's not what it used to be.
  2. Olijolly

    Olijolly

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2010
    Messages:
    158
    That's why he said he doesn't see either as convincingly S.
    And he did state garchomp's choice band and swords dance+yache sets to be very effective in the current meta.

    Now as for my opinion on this matter, I don't believe garchomp or terrakion should be in S but remain in A. They are both top quality and one of the best OU pokemons (I suppose). But either garchomp nor terrakion are as meta shifting as politoad or genesect.

    If genesect were to be gone however, I'm guessing that's going to change and dragons particularly are going to be even crazier (like it's not already huh?). But that's another story and just theorymoning so I'll stop hehe.
  3. Lavos Spawn

    Lavos Spawn run for your life
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2012
    Messages:
    2,802
    That's not an actual argument. You can't just say "Garchomp's CB set is really good" and not provide any explanation for it. These things need to be thought through before they're posted.
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
    Messages:
    799
    I also agree with Venusaur in A tier. Someone compared Venusaur with Tornadus-T and said that Tornadus-T is still a fast pokémon outside rain, to argue why Venusaur shouldn't be A. But who said this forgot that outside rain, Hurricane has awful accuracy (on par with Focus Blast, even worse than this under sun).

    Also, Venusaur may be slow, but it still otspeeds any Tyranitar/Politoed/Hippowdon/Abomasnow on their weathers, unless they are scarfed, of course. Venusaur can then kill any of them with a boosted Giga Drain (with the exception of the latter, wich is killed by Hidden Power Fire). Venusaur isn't easy to defeat even when you bring your own weather. You have to take out the sun, then switch to something that can defeat him while its speed stat is lowered.

    Also, did I mentioned that Venusaur can actually defeat the pink blobs, with a combination of Growth and Giga Drain? Since Venusaur is immune to Toxic, nothing impedes that Venusaur grabs +6 boost, and then 2HKO both blobs, and obliterate the rest of the opposing team. The only thing that both blobs can do is Thunder Wave Venusaur, wich will only facilitate Venusaur's killing by a teammate, but will not impede Venusaur from destroying both blobs.

    One of the very few things that can stop Venusaur is Heatran, but Dugtrio/Terrakion can easily dispose of him.
  5. lordkira

    lordkira

    Joined:
    Jul 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,111
    I disagree. Garchomp without sand veil may not as as omnipresent as it was when HaxChomp was running rampant and mowing down the metagame. But that 102 is still not slow enough to be as "bad" as you make it sound to be. And I don't know why but it's never been hard to pull off a SD. It's true garchomp won't be 6-0'ing tams like it used to before the SV ban. But it's a fantastic wallbreaker and it's far easier to pull a SD than terrakion and easily puts a rather big dent on the enemy team. It's lost a large portion of its effectiveness and lost its omnipresent status as it once did, but it's sure as hell not as bad as you say it is.

    Again, I am not quite certain on garchomp's tier placement but it's I would definitely be against garchomp going down to B as I was when olijolly wanted it to be in B.
  6. Master of the Six Kings

    Master of the Six Kings

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2008
    Messages:
    790
    Nominating Mamoswine for A tier:

    Black and White 2 have been very kind to Mamoswine, giving it access to its most usable five moves (SR, Ice Shard, Icicle Crash, EQ, Superpower) in conjunction with it's DW ability: Thick Fat. Additionally, the addition of the therians-formed Genie's and Garchomp to the tier have made his usability all the more justified. He is the best Dragon revenege killer that doesn't require a Choice Scarf to succeed, while tearing through most Ice resisters with a powerful STAB EQ. Being immune to all damaging weathers and hitting 2 SE with STAB 1 with Superpower coverage, only failing to beat Politoed down completely. That said, Politoed has to watch switching in on EQ. Overall, Mamoswine punches holes in teams, or uses his powerful priority to finish off weakened threats, only really being walled fully by Defensive Rotom Wash, Skarmory and Bulk up Conk. His speed i usable, especially for a famed priority user, but certainly not enough to be S tier. It's also worth noting that he is almost exclusive to Ice Shard viability in OU (Cloyster can, but loses coverage, Abomasnow's isn't terribely powerful and Donphans is pitiful) which is the only priority to deal SE damage to Venasaur, making it less of a threat even in it's own weather. And ofcourse, he can utilizie his great Ice typing easier than most as he takes neutral SR damage.

    I'd also like to echo Venusaur to A tier, Garchomp staying where it is and add Mew to C tier (insane versatility and great stat spread, but common weaknesses, 4 move syndrome and mediocre ability in comparison to OU Psychic types) and Virizion to D tier (good speed and offensive capability, but easily resisted stab, few coverage options, competition with Breloom and lack of speed boosting options/priority).
  7. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    177
    I think Terrakion is definitely more threatening than Garchomp. It's faster, has better coverage, and overall just has better STABS than Garchomp. Things that resist CC are usually frail sweepers (and Terrakion outspeeds a lot of them), plus ghosts can be spotted a mile away.
    On the other hand, Chompie's EQ doesn't hit flying, and steel types can wall Outrage all day. Skarmory pretty much laughs at Chomp unless it's running mixed.
    Therefore, bluffing with Terrakion is a lot easier. And once you guess wrong with Terrakion, which isn't hard, you usually lose half your team trying to kill it/break it's sub. If TKion gets a +2 AND a sub, game over.

    Having said that, Terrakion does have its weaknesses - a sh*t load of weaknesses, especially to every known priority bar Quick Attack and ExtremeSpeed. So while it is definitely a better A tier Pokemon than Chompie (definitely top 3 in A tier), it's probably not S tier.
  8. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    555
    I agree that Terrakion is far more scary than Garchomp. Garchomp is still a good pokemon, but Terrakion does just about everything better. Having access to a fighting STAB in close combat is amazing, and it also can run several more sets than Garchomp (Not to downplay Garchomp's versatility. Garchomp is still a very strong pokemon that can run multiple good sets). In the end, losing sand veil took away a lot of Chompy's bite. I don't think I'd go so far as to say Garchomp deserves to be demoted to B tier, however.
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,313
    Venusaur requires Sun support from Ninetales to perform its sweep. That alone should keep it off of A rank - it's too niche and specialized. It's also walled by Heatran without EQ, Dragons without Sludge Bomb / HP Ice, and Steel-types (neutral to EQ) without HP Fire, and lol Rotom-H without Sludge Bomb, so there will always be a Pokemon that it can't get past.

    Keep Venusaur in B rank
  10. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    769
    Many of the threats in A rank are walled by something, too - Keldeo can't go past Specially Defensive Jellicent no matter what Hidden Power it carries unless the Jellicent player is stupid and let it boost to +6, and by many other threats depending on HP choice (Celebi for HP Electric, Dragons for HP Ghost, and Starmie / Jellicent even harder for HP Ice), Landorus is walled by pink blobs or by Skarmory depending on the set, Lati@s are handled by Tyranitar no matter what, and so on. And most of these threats lack the ability of hurting their own counters, while Venusaur can (Sleep Powder, EQ or Sludge Bomb depending on what your team can already handle and what you want to go through). The only valid argument is "Venusaur requires Sun", however as pointed out by DFA, Venusaur remains usable even outside Sun, while Tornadus-T is arguably much less threatening outside Rain (especially in Sun, where it's basically worthless); however, you're forgetting that, inside their own weathers, Venusaur is MUCH more threatening than Tornadus, having better bulk, less susceptibility to priority, outspeeding basically every scarfer not called Jolteon (Scarf Tornadus-T is outsped, for reference...) and having a crazy boosting move. I never had problems playing around Tornadus, while Venusaur gives me headaches every single team I try to build. Maybe it's just cause of my poor teambuilding skills, but still that's my opinion.
  11. Hemp Man

    Hemp Man

    Joined:
    Sep 25, 2005
    Messages:
    739
    Resists Sucker Punch as well.
  12. Haruno

    Haruno

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    1,516
    Ironically your argument about venasaur gets countered by one of the most common physical walls in OU known as skarmory. It's straight out immune to eq/sludge bomb and resists w/e else venansaur might try to throw at it even with it's pitiful SpD.

    Tornadus-T isn't necessarily less threatening since although it loses the accuracy of it's stab of choice but focus blast users are rampant as well. You might as well take off every mon that uses focus blast in A tier to B tier with that type of logic. It still has a passable 110 SpA and an outstanding 121 speed and a decent enough movepool to take advantage of it. Even though tornadus-T is known for lawl hurricane spam it still has other coverage moves like hp, psychic, darkpulse, etc. So although not as threatening outside of rain it's still usable nevertheless.
  13. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2011
    Messages:
    769
    Every single Venusaur (except odd versions with HP Ice) carry HP Fire which is a clean OHKO in Sunlight, after Rocks; even 252/252+ Skarmory gets 2HKO'd without any problems.

    Besides the fact that Focus Miss coming from an unstabbed 110 SpA is not threatening at all, in my opinion, that's besides the point. I'm not questioning Tornadus-T's placement, I'm just saying that Venusaur is comparable and thus should be A-rank. They both are awesome in their respective weather and still usable outside of that, although mediocre. If you're saying that Tornadus-T relies on weahter less than what Venusaur does, well I don't agree at all.
  14. HabibsHotDogs

    HabibsHotDogs

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2009
    Messages:
    260
    Some points I'd like to make:

    Deoxys-D: It's threatening, but very predictable and its strengths are easily overcome by simple methods. It's also set-up bait for a variety of pokemon (oppurtunity cost). 1. Can't sweep or wall significant portions, 2. Has oppurtunity cost, ie. pokemon can set up on it, 3. Can not perform multiple roles, it really has only one, perhaps two roles! - My opinion: S -> A rank

    Dragonite: Let's be real here, this is THE 0 OPPURTUNITY COST POKEMON, if dragonite is out, there is NO such thing as a free turn, most people are busy trying to prepare for this in every team they make, it can sweep significant portions, it's ONLY flaw is stealth rock, it can set up in front of some offensive powerhouses AFTER stealth rock, Alakazam, Keldeo, Tornadus-T, to name a few. Requires minimal support, seriously, anyone clever who uses Dragonite has an ice/rock/dragon resist ready to set-up on the scarf attack that revenges him. Not to mention if you like, rapid spin support all-but guarantees a set-up chance. My opinion: A -> S rank

    Thundurus-T: I think this is an incredibly overrated pokemon, its primary stab is easily checked, it's a little too slow to do its job and is SR weak.. It's easily revenged and has great difficulty setting up, if its scarfed, it wears out quickly. My opinion: A -> B rank

    Ferrothorn: Lettuce be real tea here, this pokemon in B rank? it's only the most used hazard abuser and can literally sit in front of a lot of pokemon for multiple turns, it also makes a great fire/fight bait which you can switch a resist into. The only things that give this trouble really (with good teammates) are grass types/magnezone and clever magic bounce switch ins, as most threatening sweepers may check it, but not necessarily stop it from using its hazards. It gives away oppurtunity turns though, but is difficult to set up on, so my opinion: B -> A rank

    Gengar: I'm torn here, this thing is amazing, and has always been amazing, but I can see where it fits into B in the sense that it gives away set-up turns a lot of the time to the dragons and Gyarados... otherwise I think it's borderline A for it's ability to check so many threats and even wall certain ones, not to mention it's incredibly difficult to switch into, except for very specific counters.

    Gothitelle: Just wondering how it could be considered B rank, when it's so... mediocre.. I'd compare it to magnezone, although a less effective magnezone, I can see it has its perks, such as trapping Terrakion counters, but otherwise she gives away a lot of oppurtunity turns and is pursuit bait, not to mention very frail and very difficult to fit on a team, often a liability. My opinion: B -> D rank

    Infernape: C rank.. really? it gives a hell of a lot of teams trouble and it's primary counters (specific psychics such as latias) are often dealt with by simple techniques (such as pursuit trapping for the aforementioned latias). Let's not forget its basically impossible to set up in front of infernape unless it's scarfed, and as for the scarf set.... I'm sure I won't have to sing its praises so you know how good it is. My opinion: C -> B

    Edit: Nvm didn't see magnezone, B is a fitting rank, albeit it gives away turns a lot of the time (unless it runs hp ice, which allows it to sweep but often stops it doing its job such as reliably koing a scizor)

    edit 2: Keldeo's problem is not that she can't break through enough walls, its that there are enough faster (or speed boosting) pokemon that can threaten her or set-up on her. The pokemon that do wall her (such as physical Gastro/Amoonguss/Celebi/Jellicent) also wall her effortlessly and are given free turns.. hence why she might be more fitting as a B rank pokemon rather than an A rank one.

    edit 3: Hydreigon is completely outclassed, even as a jellicent/rotom-w/etc check it is outclassed most of the time by the lati twins or even kyurem. It has no way of boosting and is remarkably slow, scarf set is outclassed, life orb attacker is outclassed, substitute has its perks but is also somewhat outclassed, more easily walled or outsped than most special attackers. Perhaps the only way it stands out is as a way to deal with sun/rain/sand at the same time by being able to check various threats from each and its also difficult to set-up against. I would in fact say Hydreigon is borderline D rank.. but thats probably stretching it too far, my opinion: B -> C rank
  15. TheArchangle

    TheArchangle

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    72
    1. How is Deoxys-D in S-Rank? I find it very easy to beat, taunt it once and it's completely useless.

    2. How is Ferrothorn down in B-Rank? Ferrothorn has been tops in usage stats in OU and high up in Ubers forever, it can set up hazards and deal major damage with gyro ball and power whip and can paralyze with TWave.

    3. Chomp should be S-Rank, not only does it destroy anything in its path but it just dropped from Ubers.
  16. DTC

    DTC ˢᵉʳᶦᵒᵘˢ
    is a Battle Server Administratoris a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon IRC SOPis a Pokemon Researcheris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Moderator

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    1,640
    Alright, this has been too much of a problem in this thread. Throw the word "outclassed" out of your competitive Pokemon dictionary. It is a terrible word that we all use way too fucking often. There are very very very few Pokemon that are truly totally outclassed by something. Do not claim that something is outclassed because there is another Pokemon that is similar to it that has some benefits -- and inevitably some downfalls. If you are going to say something is outclassed, especially an extremely potent Pokemon such as Hydreigon that has decently high usage, you better have damn good reasoning for it. Powerful attackers that have little else as common should not be compared. Terrakion is not outclassed by Garchomp; Garchomp is not outclassed by Terrakion.

    PKGaming, if something is completely outclassed, why would it be C rank? I think you should change the definition of the C rank a little bit (as well as for the UU viability ranking thread since you used the same tier definitions for both). Perhaps just say "faces competition from higher tiered Pokemon"?

    Sorry if this sounds like a rant, but I think it is appropriate to get out there. Cheers :toast:
  17. FastFlygon

    FastFlygon

    Joined:
    Feb 15, 2010
    Messages:
    536
    Deoxys-D can easily get around Taunt with Magic Coat, or a Mental Herb and its own Taunt. It's also pretty much impossible to set up on it assuming it's played intelligently, between Taunt and T-wave it has a way to cripple almost anything. Assuming the person using it isn't an idiot, it's 2-3 layers every game, reliably, whatever the opponent does. It's most definitely an S-rank Pokemon.

    Hydreigon in D pretty laughable to. It has an incredible movepool, something the Lati twins and especially Kyurem can only dream of, more than enough attack to go mixed and the moves to hit any wall you care to mention, and, as you said, it manages to check rain, sun and sand simultaneously without being setup fodder. That in itself is a pretty incredible trait to have. If not for its mediocre speed and unfortunate Bug and Fighting-Type weaknesses, it'd probably be worthy of A.
  18. TheArchangle

    TheArchangle

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2012
    Messages:
    72
    ^ You say Deoxys-D can get around Taunt by using taunt itself but its 90 base speed leaves it out-sped by taunt users like Aerodactyl, Infernape, Gengar, etc.

    I agree with you, Hydreigon I would say is B-Tier
  19. steviestar

    steviestar

    Joined:
    Mar 26, 2011
    Messages:
    192
    Aerodactyl is non-existent in OU and Gengar/Infernape never run taunt...

    Terrakion and Tornadus-T are really the only faster pokemon that may carry it. Faster taunts are honestly not that common (there are admittedly a lot of lead Terrakions going around though).
  20. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,142
    =====
    Update
    =====

    Terrakion up from A tier ==> S-tier

    This is definitely going be a controversial change (it might not even be permanent) but when you look at the facts, its kind of hard to deny that Terrakion isn't S-tier material. It's a really powerful offensive threat that also doubles as a really good Genesect check (which practically everyone is running).

    Calling Tornadus-T "mediocre" outside of Rain Dance is not really accurate. Tornadus-T is fairly self reliant even outside of rain; it still has that base 121 speed (which gets the jump on practically everything in OU) which let's it check to pretty much anything in BW OU. You can still work with 70% accurate Hurricane, U-turn & Superpower when appropriate, and hell... you can even run Rain-dance to bring back rain. It has Regenerator, and as we all know, is a ridiculously good ability. Venusaur is the polar opposite, base 80 speed pretty guarantees that most teams will naturally outspace it and it's STABs are easier to work around when it can't use a 2 hit combo. (ie: Switch a faster steel-type on Grass or Poison-type move and you don't have to worry about HP Fire, etc).
  21. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule I suck.
    is a Tiering Contributor

    Joined:
    May 25, 2009
    Messages:
    629
    Maybe I suck at reading but any reason why Ferrothorn isn't A rank? Pretty great typing for the current Metagame especially with all the Rain and Mag2Drag spam I see everywhere. Shed Shell is pretty fucking great item on Ferrothorn that allows it to escape the suddenly popular (and very easily checkable) Magnezone/Goth lady, and it can always use Leech Seed to wear down the opponent while gaining health and I don't think it's that big of a set up bait as I many people think, most set uppers won't like a Thunder Wave smacking it. Of course I didn't write about how great of a hazard setter it is, lol

    Also Terrakion better be an S Rank Pokemon, it's fucking incredible.
    (Sorry for any bad English)
  22. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,967
    2 pokemon changes that I think should atleast be talked about:

    Celebi to C rank: Celebi isn't nearly as effective as it was in BW1 which can be seen by its slipping useage. Nasty plot and tinkerbell celebi are move suited against balanced teams which are more rare in this meta, and defensive versions have still competition with Amoonguss. Its still a solid pokemon, but not what it use to be.

    Vaporeon to D rank: What does Vaporeon... do in this meta? Wish pass? This meta is far to offensive to have vaporeon on your team for that. Vaporeon provides little team support, and in my experience just ends up sitting there doing nothing. People complain why people are using metagross, but why are people using this?
  23. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,313
    Nah, Celebi still does work. It can reliably set up SR, and it also has amazing support options in Thunder Wave, Light Screen, Leech Seed, Healing Wish, Trick Room, and Perish Song. It's also a stellar Baton Passer, being able to pass Swords Dance, Nasty Plot, or Calm Mind boosts. It is one of the best Keldeo, Breloom, and RP Landorus check out there. Access to U-turn allows it to maintain momentum. Dropping it lower than Venusaur would be absurd

    Keep Celebi in B rank
  24. Lady Alex

    Lady Alex This game sucks. Ban everything and it might not.

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2010
    Messages:
    555
    I don't see how Vaporeon has even remained OU for as long as it has. What exactly does it even do effectively in this metagame?
  25. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    well, almost nothing. Under rain it can abuse of Hydration+life orb to be a good offensive tank, but thats all. I think that any set with wish+support moves are just outclassed.
    Maybe its still Ou because its a great pokemon to use in a full baton pass team even though this playstile is not that common.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)