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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. Meru

    Meru the pay back
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    I second this, and also want to point out another flaw of Moltres: its reliance on less than optimal accuracy moves. Hurricane's 70% accuracy and Fire Blast's 85% accuracy can fail you when needed, winding up with a dead or statused Moltres.
  2. NidoJosh

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    I definitely agree with this
    I've never been a big fan of Moltres due to its crippling weakness to the omnipresence of stealth rocks. It most definitely packs huge power but there are other choices for a powerful special attackers that are not effected so much by Stealth Rocks.

    Alomomola is definitely worth a C Rank in my opinion. As explained in your lengthy post before, it has a humongous HP Stat capable of taking hits, as well as being able to wish pass huge amounts of HP

    I haven't really tried Haunter in RU (but I know it's very effective in NU..) so I think I'll test it out for now and see how it fairs!
  3. BKC

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    You guys are nuts. Moltres is an excellent mon even with the SR weak, since once it gets in safely it can still blast you with its ridiculously strong attacks regardless of health, and it can also Roost off the damage. There's also the fact that if you play well you won't even have a problem with SR since it's fairly easy to spin with Kabutops.
  4. DrRobotnik

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    See: list of Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres, bad accuracy STAB.
  5. TROP

    TROP ur a faget
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    List of mons that kill moltres easily prove nothing. A lot of mons can eliminate Terrakion easily in OU( Scizor[oh, it loses to the #1 most used mon in its tier. the mons you posted for Moltres are not even close to the top],Toxicroak, Landorus-T, Latios, Latias, Tornadus, Venusaur in sun, Stoutland in sand, Breloom, Lilligant in sun, Starmie, Espeon, Alakazam, Dugtrio traps it, and Gliscor as long terrakion is not using Rock Gem +2 stone edge), and you see no one doubting its position as S because it is so hard to come in like it happens with Moltres.

    And the only bad accuracy stab is Hurricane. Moltres still gets most of the kills fire blast does with flamethrower(the only really relevant kill it misses is defensive cryo, but that dies after sr anyway).
  6. oSeasons

    oSeasons

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    Durant is extremely OP! Once it sets up hone claws, it can easily sweep your opponent's entire team as long as they don't have a 100% health qwilfish :I
  7. DrRobotnik

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    Name one other Pokemon in S Rank that has a weakness so major that it requires direct intervention from another Pokemon just to be able to be switched in (inb4 "losing half your health on switching in is no big deal").

    @TropiOUs your entire statement is "no it isn't because [completely different Pokemon in a completely different metagame]".

    @col49 You missed the point of, like, every word I typed. I'm just going to very quickly list the important stuff you got wrong to save time:

    • The part about being hard to switch in is not only referring to the stealth rocks. It's not hard at all to predict when it's going to be called in, so you can just use a water/electric/rock move then. Especially if you just spun, as you could easily just do an electric/rock move and kill either Kabutops/Cryogonal or Moltres.
    • The point of the list is referring to Pokemon that are already in. These Pokemon easily outspeed, or in Slowking's case, tank a hit from it and OHKO it with no problem. Even if it does get one kill, that's it, especially because it can't afford to keep switching in and out because stealth rock and repreatedly taking hits normally.
    • I'm talking exclusively from my experience, I have never been killed by a Moltres and I've encountered many.
  8. TROP

    TROP ur a faget
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    How is this stopping Moltres from being S when the best spinner(kabutops) has amazing synergy with it and is minimal support when they take down each other counters easily? While still being able to wreck stuff with only 50% of its health easily. Moltres also gets this wondeful move called roost. This move is used by ALL of the good sets, and Moltres is fast enough to scare plenty of things and find a time to roost, making Stealth Rock a minor issue if used by someone smarter than a rock.
  9. DrRobotnik

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    What is the Electric type?

    While dying easily to almost everything that outspeeds it at that point.

    I love free turns, lets me switch into a Pokemon that's good against it or just outspeed it and hit hard if the one I have in can do that.

    "If you don't agree with my position you're stupid and bad at the game."

    You never answered my question, by the way.
  10. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    These two posts practically explain everything. Moltres is solid S-Rank material. Being the most lethal special attacker in all of RU, Moltres is capable of punching big holes in teams. And besides, all of its flaws are overthrown by its strengths, like sheer power and Roost. Plus, spin support in RU is not much support, since Tops and Cryo are so damn awesome already. And Kabutops and Moltres are a great duo to boot. col49 and Trop pretty much sum up my argument right here.
  11. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h
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    How many Pokemon in RU do you think can single handedly defeat the whole tier with no support?

    RU is probably the easiest tier to remove SR from the field of play with Kabutops defeating every single ghost and having good synergy with Moltres (gdi electric is the easiest immunity to cover atm SEE NIDOQUEEN) and Cryogonal who can beat out every ghost bar Spiritomb.

    Lets also take into account that the amount of Pokemon that can safely switch into all of Moltres' moves are Lanturn and Regirock, Slowking has to run Max/Max and have SR off its side of the field to be able to reliably beat it.

    Sure when Moltres uses Roost you get one free turn, but unless you have Lanturn or Regirock you will potentially be losing a Pokemon every time Moltres comes in, congrats.
  12. DrRobotnik

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    @New Breed Or unless I have anything on that list I posted. If Moltres comes in on any of those, it's dead. If Moltres is already in with any of those, it's dead. Please stop assuming that I'm talking about Pokemon switching in on it when everything I've said is clearly in reference to Moltres being the one switching in.

    @col49 I have plainly stated that I think Moltres is great, there is no possible way that you could get "Moltres sucks" from that. Also, things can have moves that aren't their type. And would you like to make that list? Because I'm not going to prove your point for you, especially when you have no idea what mine is. So, let me state this very clearly: I think that Moltres is very good in this tier, however it has certain issues that I do not think qualifies it as one of the best. It is not his upsides I'm talking about, it is his numerous downsides I am saying should disqualify him from that rank. Pointing out his good points do not change those at all.

    And my question goes unanswered; how many Pokemon in S Rank need a very specific type Pokemon on their team to function well? One, and its name is Moltres.
  13. New Breed

    New Breed ka$h
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    Please stop assuming that I am stupid enough to switch Moltres in on something like Slowking or Aerodactyl lmao, at least use some sort of logic with your arguement
  14. DrRobotnik

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    Then tell me when he's switching in. He has to eventually. Just because you automatically think you're right doesn't mean I'm not thinking.
  15. New Breed

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    Moltres has resistances to Ice, Grass, Fighting and Fire and is immune to Ground type attacks, do you really think that throughout a match you will not get one opportunity to switch in?
  16. Shuckleking87

    Shuckleking87 "Assault vest makes everything better" AV Seaking, BT
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    Well, Moltres is neutral to ice. However, its bulk in taking ice moves really shouldn't be a problem with or without stealth rocks. Also, there is an assumption that stealth rocks will be on the field, which isn't necessarily the case, as offensive momentum, such as Mold Breaker Sawk, cinccino, taunt aerodactyl, fast sleep inducer and general offensive threats can either completely prevent hazards on the field or essentially suicide that poke for rocks. And sure, even if Kabutops HAS to be on your team (which has excellent synergy with moltres), Kabutops is a threatening poke in and of itself. Plus having the highest special attack stat in the tier (minus glaceon if you want to go there, which is weak to rocks) and speed to make Moltres a S worthy poke.
  17. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Moltres really doesn't care if it's 4x weak to SR. It's still a big time powerhouse, and its spinning partner, Kabutops, has amazing synergy with it. Moltres and Kabutops have excellent synergy, and spinning is insanely easy to pull off, since the two good spinners of RU, Tops and Cryo, are both able to beat most spinblockers 1 on 1, so it's not like it matters. Heck, even Sandslash can do the job well for Moltres.

    His comparison to Terrakion in OU was a valid one. They are both S threats that wreck shit in their own tiers, and they do have weaknesses. By this logic, Terrakion is clearly not S in OU, because he's weak to priority and is outsped by Starmie and Espeon. Even if RU is not OU, this comparison is valid because it shows two powerhouses in the tiers who are definite S.

    This is flawed logic right here. Kabutops and Cryogonal are both dangerous spinners and no one in their right mind would ever switch in on a Water, Rock, or Electric move. Besides, as stated, spinning is never that hard. If you know a Water / Rock / Electric move is coming, why even switch Moltres in? That's some bad logic. And most things that outspeed Molt, bar Aero, cannot switch in on Moltres.

    Lulzies. None of them can come in on Molt, while Tops, should it get SD up, is going to annihilate all of them with Aqua Jet. Not to mention Nidoqueen, a fit to any team, as well as Druddigon, can come in easily. You're not going to win that one. Trust me.

    Um, none of them can really switch in. To be honest, Moltres's sheer power ensures that none of them will come in safely. And besides, Nidoqueen is slow too, so this is a fallacy. And Escavalier is literally 2HKO'd by Stoutland Fire Fang. And it's still S-Rank. This is a big fail.

    Okay, Roost does provide a free turn, alright. But Moltres is very strong and can OHKO the opposition.

    Your logic is very flawed and this is nonsensical. No Moltres user in the right mind would ever switch in if they are suspecting a Water, Electric, or Rock move coming their way. Your ladder rating proves that your arguments are coming from battling the dregs of the ladder.

    Those downsides are thoroughly mitigated by his strong points, particularly his sheer power, access to Roost, a usable Speed tier, etc. Those overthrow the downsides almost entirely.

    He can come in on Specs Sceptile, as well as Escavalier. It can come in on Cryogonal too, and is a nice weapon against hail. It also comes in on Klinklang and other things like Roselia, etc. He has his fair share of switch-in opportunities.

    EDIT: Off topic here, but Scolipede in C..:O
  18. Molk

    Molk Godlike Usmash
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    Okay, ive made some changes in the viability ranks because its like 7 in the morning and its been a few days so might as well. Also, wow that Moltres argument shit :x


    Okay, so here are the moves that have been made this time around


    Alomomola from D rank -----> C rank

    Haunter from Untested -----> C rank

    Gothorita is now untested

    Im fairly happy with how this turned out, Alomomola really deserved a bit more recognition for its wishpassing niche despite how much i hate its vulnerability to set up sweepers, and while Haunter has its flaws, such as extreme fraility and competition with Rotom in particular, its still a pretty cool Pokemon and i think its positive traits make it fit solidly into C rank. Im not sure where i'd place Gothorita, as i have limited experience with it, but i'd probably place it in either D rank or C rank, depending on how my testing turns out, it has a definite niche in Shadow Tag, thats for sure!

    Also, here is the proposed change for this round (holy shitstorm .-.)

    Moltres down from S rank -----> A rank

    Im going to honestly say i also strongly disagree with moving Moltres down to A rank. While Stealth Rock is admittedly a problem for any Moltres user, its not like Moltres is completely useless even if Stealth Rock is up, it still has those impressively powerful dual STABs and reliable recovery in the form of to work with, and even with Stealth Rock up, it can still find opportunities to switch in against various defensive Grass-types, Steelix iirc, and things like Escavalier who struggle to break through Moltres even when its at half hp. When Stealth Rock isnt up, Moltres is a true monster to behold, and nobody can deny thing, with just its STAB moves alone, i can only thing of two Pokemon in RU that can reliably switch into Moltres: Specially defensive Regirock and Lanturn, not just do these two lack reliable recovery, but they also take a fair amount from Hidden Power Grass as well, making them less solid as counters. As mentioned by many users before me, its rather easy to keep Stealth Rock off the field in a tier where the two best spinners in the tier effortlessly swat away the spinblockers, and one of them (Kabutops) even shares excellent synergy with Moltres otherwise. Moltres is also seen as a metagame defining Pokemon, one of the main qualities most S rank Pokemon have, when i think of a Pokemon i absolutely have to have a way to check to be successful, Moltres is one of the first Pokemon that comes to mind (along with Nidoqueen and Sceptile). Honestly, while Moltres does have some flaws that hold it back when not dealt with (even though dealing with them is super easy) I'd still say that its positive traits outweigh its negative traits by a really large margin, and that these positive traits are enough to keep it S rank, imo.

    Also, to answer your question, Tornadus-T was S rank in the OU thread before being sent off to Ubers despite needing direct support from Politoed to function anwhere near its full potential, unless you mean only RU pokes.
  19. DrRobotnik

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    Fine, you win. This would be easier if people who agreed with me decided to back me up.

    @ScraftyIsTheBest First off, the fact that you'd look up someone's ranking just to insult them says a lot about your character. Second, 1500-1600 is hardly the "dregs", it's the middle at least. Third, I've still been winning almost every one of my matches but for some reason I'm only getting, like, 5 points per match even against higher ranked players.
  20. BluhBluh

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    I haven't been able to use Moltres very effectively, but from what I've seen, LO Moltres is a great special sweeper. With access to Roost, it can heal off LO recoil and SR damage, assuming you haven't been able to keep SR off before bringing in Moltres. It can pretty much kill off Durant and do great damage to Escavalier. It also kills off Tangrowth and heavily damages, if not outright kill, Sceptile. It's a dangerous sweeper that should be dealt with and prepared for, even with SR active.

    In other words: Moltres should stay in S-Rank.
  21. Cherub Agent

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    Even though I do think Moltres should remain in S rank, the examples that you just provided aren't exactly rock solid. Durant does often run Rock Slide over Superpower for Fire-types, Escsvalier KOs Moltres with Return after Stealth Rock, and Tangrowth can nail it with Sleep Powder on the switch. Moltres should never ever even consider coming in on Sceptile, as it almost always carries HP Rock.

    Moltres may still be S rank, but I feel that it's the worse than any of the others that are in the same rank. While spinning in RU is all well and good, just like Rapid Spin, Stealth Rock also only requires a single turn to be set up again. And Moltres IS quite easy to force out/revenge kill. However, I think that S rank is mainly justified becaude I cannot think of a Pokemon that causes more pain when it gets in safely, and getting in safely is all too likely due to the spinners.
  22. BluhBluh

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    Your point is valid. Most people would usually try to delay Moltres' entrance with SR on. The fact that Durant and Sceptile outspeed it does not help it's case.
  23. DrRobotnik

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    I agree with Cherub, although I'd say it's too far from the others in the tier to be in S-Rank.

    Although, I don't really care about this anymore, so stay tuned for a new proposal later today.
  24. DrRobotnik

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    I would like to propose introducing Audino to D Rank

    I know what you're thinking. "Robotnik", you ask, "why even use this thing? It's basically Clefable but can only wish support." That is true, but it does have something that makes it a good wish supporter, in some cases even superior to Clefable; regenerator. Regenerator allows Audino to take a hit while wishing and not have to stay in and protect to regain health, making it a much more durable and reliable wisher.

    "But Robotnik", you ask yet again, "Alomomola not only has that, but much better HP, letting it heal more. Is the normal typing that much of an advantage over water?" Not necessarily, but it does make it a better fit for certain teams. Also, Palindrome Luvdisc doesn't get heal bell or aromatherapy, both of which are incredibly useful.

    However, since this is really all it can do well in RU and it's not even necessarily the best at it, it doesn't make the cut for C.
  25. ScraftyIsTheBest

    ScraftyIsTheBest It's Showtime! Are you ready?
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    I am not exactly sure as to if Audino should really get a ranking, given that it no longer has an analysis. But then again, I do see Audino capable of being used to some effect, so yeah.

    That said, I do have a proposal of my own, but I don't seem to remember what it was atm. If I can recall it, I will bring it up later.

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