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Gen 5 The RU Viability Ranking Thread

Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.

  1. NfskMjmMal

    NfskMjmMal

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    I agree with Alomomola at C. 267 HP wishes are nothing to laugh at, often bringing sweepers or other pokes with no form of recovery in the red back up to full or close to it. With Heal Bell support, it's a great physical wall that has many chances to Toxic its opponents. I might use Scald over Waterfall in RU. I know, slightly worse Special Attack and pseudo-dual status, but RU has more fearsome physical walls, and some specially defensive pokes, like the Hitmons, would cripple to a burn. I use it in NU and it's amazing. I don't see why C isn't fit for it in RU, even though I've never used it in RU.

    I'm currently testing Haunter in RU. So far it's working great. With my large sample size of one battle so far, it wrecked and single-handedly made my opponent forfeit. Haunter-Aggron core seems great and I can't wait to try it more. Again, I use Haunter in NU, and it's awesome. I'll probably put it in B or C.

    Edit:

    I would like to propose Haunter for C Rank.
    I think this fits Haunter. Haunter's annoying Sub-Disable set can be a real weapon if used correctly, but of course, there's that notable flaw of Haunter dying to like everything it isn't immune to or quad resists. Haunter has lot of potential, it just needs an opportunity, really.
  2. col49

    col49 what.
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    Geez, I haven't been posting here, like, at all recently '~' Anywho, I've been using one certain 'mon for a little bit now, and I suppose I feel confident enough in my knowledge of it to post a little bit about it x_x

    [​IMG]

    Haunter has, in my experiences, been a very interesting an useful Pokemon in the RU metagame. Specifically I have used the SubDisable and Choice Scarf sets, so I'll give a little personal insight into both real quick.

    SubDisable is, as one imagine, a pretty annoying 'mon to play. It's cool immunities allow it to completely wall a bunch of 'mons relying on a singular move to hit Ghost-types, and being able to completely shut down slower Choice users is a really cool perk. 95 Base Speed, while not being amazing, is certainly respectable for this role, and allows it to outpace common Choice users such as Entei to check it effectively. STAB Sludge Bomb is also a nice boon for it, allowing it to passively wear down specially defensive Pokemon with poison damage. For this reason it actually matches up decently with and spin-blocks Cryogonal, being able Disable its Ice Beam and proceed to fish for the poison, which while not immediately beating Cryogonal does shut it down and hurt its longevity, effectively preventing it from spinning and easing the task of breaking through it for other specially based attackers, which makes it pretty cool for stacking special attackers on a team.

    Choice Scarf, despite my reservations about it, is a very cool set. Haunter's solid Special Attack, Speed, and fairly flexible movepool make it very capable of serving as a versatile revenge-killer. Despite facing some competition for Rotom-N, Haunter has some distinct traits setting him apart. Poison sub-typing is a nice boon for Haunter, allowing it to switch into Grass-types such as Sceptile and Lilligant to decent effect, take a singular hit and KO with Sludge Bomb. The difference between 91 and 95, while being somewhat insignificant while Scarfed (only really means the chance to speed tie stuff like Primeape), is quite significant post-Trick, and means the chance to hit things like Drapion and Jynx. Moreover, access to utility moves like Destiny Bond are really cool for Haunter, allowing him to more concretely take out a Pokemon if played tactfully.

    That being said, Haunter is a fairly useful Pokemon in RU. It can holds its own v.a nice chunk of Pokemon, and it actually has enough options such that it isn't totally one-dimensional. However, it's obvious frailty, inability to spin-block Kabutops at all (or offensive Cryo, for that matter), and only moderately high Speed stat all hinder it's performance in the tier, and make him mediocre under most circumstances. However, by playing to its strengths and using it under the right conditions Haunter is a really solid and useful 'mon. That being said, I'd have to agree with NfskMjmMal and say that Haunter would be best suited for C-tier :]
  3. Nails

    Nails EAST 2014
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    <@Molk|afk> windsong nails if you want goth on the list bring it up <sic>
    <&Hockey_Red_Panda> ok i will post goth for c rank
    <@Molk|afk> k ty

    goth for c rank
  4. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Ok, i have nothing better to do so i guess ill update this :>.

    So here are the changes that i madeeee

    Ditto down from B rank -----> C rank

    Medicham up from C rank -----> B rank


    After some discussion and playtesting, i decided to keep both aggron and bouffalant in B rank, they are both great Pokemon obviously, but i feel that their individual flaws make them fit into B rank more than A rank, although both are obviously some of the best Pokemon in B rank, which is a plus for sure!

    Also, here are the new proposed changes!

    Alomomola up from D rank -----> C rank

    Haunter up from untested -----> C rank

    Adding Gothorita to untested.

    Im pretty indifferent on Haunter and Gothorita, i have little to no playing experience with either of them so i really dont know how good or terrible they really are. I explained my reasoning for promoting Alomomola in an earlier post, so i think you all know what my thoughts on her are :P.

    I might edit this post later with a certain Pokemon i think is deserving of a rank if i can remember, so keep your eyes peeled!
  5. DrRobotnik

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    I would like to propose moving Moltres down from S-rank to A-rank.

    It has multiple weaknesses (mainly rock) that it dies pretty much instantly to due to sub-par minimum defenses and HP, making it risky to switch into and not very safe against Pokemon that outspeed it, due to said weaknesses and no priority moves. Even though being almost completely dependent on the absence of Stealth Rock should be enough to disqualify it from "low risk high reward" and "very few flaws", this clinches it.

    Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres:

    • Rotom-N
    • Primeape
    • Electivire
    • Entei
    • Manectric
    • Galvantula
    • Durant
    • Archeops
    • Cinccino
    • Aerodactyl
    • Slowking
    Sorry for the small post, I'll make it up by posting a suggestion for a new Pokemon later.
  6. Meru

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    I second this, and also want to point out another flaw of Moltres: its reliance on less than optimal accuracy moves. Hurricane's 70% accuracy and Fire Blast's 85% accuracy can fail you when needed, winding up with a dead or statused Moltres.
  7. NidoJosh

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    I definitely agree with this
    I've never been a big fan of Moltres due to its crippling weakness to the omnipresence of stealth rocks. It most definitely packs huge power but there are other choices for a powerful special attackers that are not effected so much by Stealth Rocks.

    Alomomola is definitely worth a C Rank in my opinion. As explained in your lengthy post before, it has a humongous HP Stat capable of taking hits, as well as being able to wish pass huge amounts of HP

    I haven't really tried Haunter in RU (but I know it's very effective in NU..) so I think I'll test it out for now and see how it fairs!
  8. BKC

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    You guys are nuts. Moltres is an excellent mon even with the SR weak, since once it gets in safely it can still blast you with its ridiculously strong attacks regardless of health, and it can also Roost off the damage. There's also the fact that if you play well you won't even have a problem with SR since it's fairly easy to spin with Kabutops.
  9. DrRobotnik

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    See: list of Pokemon that can easily kill Moltres, bad accuracy STAB.
  10. TROP

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    List of mons that kill moltres easily prove nothing. A lot of mons can eliminate Terrakion easily in OU( Scizor[oh, it loses to the #1 most used mon in its tier. the mons you posted for Moltres are not even close to the top],Toxicroak, Landorus-T, Latios, Latias, Tornadus, Venusaur in sun, Stoutland in sand, Breloom, Lilligant in sun, Starmie, Espeon, Alakazam, Dugtrio traps it, and Gliscor as long terrakion is not using Rock Gem +2 stone edge), and you see no one doubting its position as S because it is so hard to come in like it happens with Moltres.

    And the only bad accuracy stab is Hurricane. Moltres still gets most of the kills fire blast does with flamethrower(the only really relevant kill it misses is defensive cryo, but that dies after sr anyway).
  11. col49

    col49 what.
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    Ok, so I'm going to have to adamantly disagree with this. First and fore-mostly, 90 / 90 / 85 Defenses are far from "sub-par minimum" (which I'm pretty sure doesn't make any grammatical sense, but that's neither here nor there :x), and while it is devalued by its Stealth Rock weakness access to Roost mitigates this to an extent.

    The argument about saying its hard to switch in is honestly not particularly strong, as despite its Stealth Rock weakness you overlook the fact that it is really easy to spin in RU, as the good spinners of the tier (Kabutops and Cryogonal) essentially always beat Ghost-types with tactful play. Moreover, its not as though Moltres, while certainly not switching in incredibly easily, can find opportunities to come in on common Pokemon such as Gallade, Tangrowth / Amoonguss (post Sleep fodder), Escavalier and so forth without much trouble as long as you keep Stealth Rock off the field. As a matter of fact, Moltres can switch in on less offensive variants of these Pokemon regardless of SR being on the field or not. If you think that once SR is up Moltres becomes an instant non-issue, then obviously you don't have enough experience with or against the 'mon, and shouldn't be attempting to categorize it in the first place.

    Being vulnerable to faster Pokemon and having distinct weaknesses is no grounds for being a bad Pokemon. Escavalier is slower than a ton of Pokemon, and is incredibly vulnerable to Fire-type attacks, yet he is still one of the best Pokemon in the tier. Should we relegate him to A because Entei can outspeed and OHKO with Flare Blitz?

    Moreover, this list is the biggest example of bubble logic I've seen in a while. Only 2 of the Pokemon you list can actually switch into Moltres, being Aerodactyl and Slowking, with the rest being completely devastated by its attacks, with everything barring Entei and Archeops being OHKOed by Fire Blast, the former of whom can't outspeed anyway and is OHKOed by Hurricane after SR damage and the latter being put it Defeatist range, completely neutering it. That being said, to be able to get in and threaten Moltres the player would either need to sac a 'mon to bring it in or switch cleverly. A Pokemon that forces that sort of scenario surely sounds like a top-tier Pokemon, no?

    Sorry if this comes across as hostile (I don't mean to be honest ;-;) but I feel as though this argument is grounded more on hunches than actual application '~'

    edit: Trop beat me to the list point a little bit, but still =(
  12. oSeasons

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    Durant is extremely OP! Once it sets up hone claws, it can easily sweep your opponent's entire team as long as they don't have a 100% health qwilfish :I
  13. DrRobotnik

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    Name one other Pokemon in S Rank that has a weakness so major that it requires direct intervention from another Pokemon just to be able to be switched in (inb4 "losing half your health on switching in is no big deal").

    @TropiOUs your entire statement is "no it isn't because [completely different Pokemon in a completely different metagame]".

    @col49 You missed the point of, like, every word I typed. I'm just going to very quickly list the important stuff you got wrong to save time:

    • The part about being hard to switch in is not only referring to the stealth rocks. It's not hard at all to predict when it's going to be called in, so you can just use a water/electric/rock move then. Especially if you just spun, as you could easily just do an electric/rock move and kill either Kabutops/Cryogonal or Moltres.
    • The point of the list is referring to Pokemon that are already in. These Pokemon easily outspeed, or in Slowking's case, tank a hit from it and OHKO it with no problem. Even if it does get one kill, that's it, especially because it can't afford to keep switching in and out because stealth rock and repreatedly taking hits normally.
    • I'm talking exclusively from my experience, I have never been killed by a Moltres and I've encountered many.
  14. TROP

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    How is this stopping Moltres from being S when the best spinner(kabutops) has amazing synergy with it and is minimal support when they take down each other counters easily? While still being able to wreck stuff with only 50% of its health easily. Moltres also gets this wondeful move called roost. This move is used by ALL of the good sets, and Moltres is fast enough to scare plenty of things and find a time to roost, making Stealth Rock a minor issue if used by someone smarter than a rock.
  15. DrRobotnik

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    What is the Electric type?

    While dying easily to almost everything that outspeeds it at that point.

    I love free turns, lets me switch into a Pokemon that's good against it or just outspeed it and hit hard if the one I have in can do that.

    "If you don't agree with my position you're stupid and bad at the game."

    You never answered my question, by the way.
  16. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    These two posts practically explain everything. Moltres is solid S-Rank material. Being the most lethal special attacker in all of RU, Moltres is capable of punching big holes in teams. And besides, all of its flaws are overthrown by its strengths, like sheer power and Roost. Plus, spin support in RU is not much support, since Tops and Cryo are so damn awesome already. And Kabutops and Moltres are a great duo to boot. col49 and Trop pretty much sum up my argument right here.
  17. New Breed

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    How many Pokemon in RU do you think can single handedly defeat the whole tier with no support?

    RU is probably the easiest tier to remove SR from the field of play with Kabutops defeating every single ghost and having good synergy with Moltres (gdi electric is the easiest immunity to cover atm SEE NIDOQUEEN) and Cryogonal who can beat out every ghost bar Spiritomb.

    Lets also take into account that the amount of Pokemon that can safely switch into all of Moltres' moves are Lanturn and Regirock, Slowking has to run Max/Max and have SR off its side of the field to be able to reliably beat it.

    Sure when Moltres uses Roost you get one free turn, but unless you have Lanturn or Regirock you will potentially be losing a Pokemon every time Moltres comes in, congrats.
  18. col49

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    Alrighty then, I didn't feel as though this didn't need to carry on, but I suppose I don't have much of a choice now '~' Your points imply that the Moltres is no less than 100% inept. If you are assuming that Moltres is switching into Pokemon capable of simply clicking an Electric-, Water-, or Rock-type attack with little consequence, then it begs the question why is the Moltres user switching it in the first place? As with any generic offensive Pokemon, you aren't just haphazardly throwing it out into the fray, you're switching it in on opportunities it can capitalize on, such as the ones I mentioned in my prior post, a well-timed double switch, etc. Similarly, one must ask you make a list of Pokemon Moltres has no business staying in on, let alone switching directly into, to prove that it isn't S-Tier. For the sake of the argument, lets say I disagreed with Escavalier being in S-Tier. Would my listing of every Fire-type Pokemon from RU and NU prove that Escavalier isn't deserving of S-Tier? Perhaps if you could make up a list of Pokemon that can switch into Moltres and then proceed to either take a second hit or outpace it and KO then perhaps it would provide some sort of palpable evidence of Moltres' alleged mediocrity, but your given case really doesn't offer much material to discuss :/
  19. DrRobotnik

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    @New Breed Or unless I have anything on that list I posted. If Moltres comes in on any of those, it's dead. If Moltres is already in with any of those, it's dead. Please stop assuming that I'm talking about Pokemon switching in on it when everything I've said is clearly in reference to Moltres being the one switching in.

    @col49 I have plainly stated that I think Moltres is great, there is no possible way that you could get "Moltres sucks" from that. Also, things can have moves that aren't their type. And would you like to make that list? Because I'm not going to prove your point for you, especially when you have no idea what mine is. So, let me state this very clearly: I think that Moltres is very good in this tier, however it has certain issues that I do not think qualifies it as one of the best. It is not his upsides I'm talking about, it is his numerous downsides I am saying should disqualify him from that rank. Pointing out his good points do not change those at all.

    And my question goes unanswered; how many Pokemon in S Rank need a very specific type Pokemon on their team to function well? One, and its name is Moltres.
  20. New Breed

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    Please stop assuming that I am stupid enough to switch Moltres in on something like Slowking or Aerodactyl lmao, at least use some sort of logic with your arguement
  21. DrRobotnik

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    Then tell me when he's switching in. He has to eventually. Just because you automatically think you're right doesn't mean I'm not thinking.
  22. New Breed

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    Moltres has resistances to Ice, Grass, Fighting and Fire and is immune to Ground type attacks, do you really think that throughout a match you will not get one opportunity to switch in?
  23. Shuckleking87

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    Well, Moltres is neutral to ice. However, its bulk in taking ice moves really shouldn't be a problem with or without stealth rocks. Also, there is an assumption that stealth rocks will be on the field, which isn't necessarily the case, as offensive momentum, such as Mold Breaker Sawk, cinccino, taunt aerodactyl, fast sleep inducer and general offensive threats can either completely prevent hazards on the field or essentially suicide that poke for rocks. And sure, even if Kabutops HAS to be on your team (which has excellent synergy with moltres), Kabutops is a threatening poke in and of itself. Plus having the highest special attack stat in the tier (minus glaceon if you want to go there, which is weak to rocks) and speed to make Moltres a S worthy poke.
  24. ScraftyIsTheBest

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    Moltres really doesn't care if it's 4x weak to SR. It's still a big time powerhouse, and its spinning partner, Kabutops, has amazing synergy with it. Moltres and Kabutops have excellent synergy, and spinning is insanely easy to pull off, since the two good spinners of RU, Tops and Cryo, are both able to beat most spinblockers 1 on 1, so it's not like it matters. Heck, even Sandslash can do the job well for Moltres.

    His comparison to Terrakion in OU was a valid one. They are both S threats that wreck shit in their own tiers, and they do have weaknesses. By this logic, Terrakion is clearly not S in OU, because he's weak to priority and is outsped by Starmie and Espeon. Even if RU is not OU, this comparison is valid because it shows two powerhouses in the tiers who are definite S.

    This is flawed logic right here. Kabutops and Cryogonal are both dangerous spinners and no one in their right mind would ever switch in on a Water, Rock, or Electric move. Besides, as stated, spinning is never that hard. If you know a Water / Rock / Electric move is coming, why even switch Moltres in? That's some bad logic. And most things that outspeed Molt, bar Aero, cannot switch in on Moltres.

    Lulzies. None of them can come in on Molt, while Tops, should it get SD up, is going to annihilate all of them with Aqua Jet. Not to mention Nidoqueen, a fit to any team, as well as Druddigon, can come in easily. You're not going to win that one. Trust me.

    Um, none of them can really switch in. To be honest, Moltres's sheer power ensures that none of them will come in safely. And besides, Nidoqueen is slow too, so this is a fallacy. And Escavalier is literally 2HKO'd by Stoutland Fire Fang. And it's still S-Rank. This is a big fail.

    Okay, Roost does provide a free turn, alright. But Moltres is very strong and can OHKO the opposition.

    Your logic is very flawed and this is nonsensical. No Moltres user in the right mind would ever switch in if they are suspecting a Water, Electric, or Rock move coming their way. Your ladder rating proves that your arguments are coming from battling the dregs of the ladder.

    Those downsides are thoroughly mitigated by his strong points, particularly his sheer power, access to Roost, a usable Speed tier, etc. Those overthrow the downsides almost entirely.

    He can come in on Specs Sceptile, as well as Escavalier. It can come in on Cryogonal too, and is a nice weapon against hail. It also comes in on Klinklang and other things like Roselia, etc. He has his fair share of switch-in opportunities.

    EDIT: Off topic here, but Scolipede in C..:O
  25. Molk

    Molk Crustle knocked off the opposing Rhydon's Assault Vest!
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    Okay, ive made some changes in the viability ranks because its like 7 in the morning and its been a few days so might as well. Also, wow that Moltres argument shit :x


    Okay, so here are the moves that have been made this time around


    Alomomola from D rank -----> C rank

    Haunter from Untested -----> C rank

    Gothorita is now untested

    Im fairly happy with how this turned out, Alomomola really deserved a bit more recognition for its wishpassing niche despite how much i hate its vulnerability to set up sweepers, and while Haunter has its flaws, such as extreme fraility and competition with Rotom in particular, its still a pretty cool Pokemon and i think its positive traits make it fit solidly into C rank. Im not sure where i'd place Gothorita, as i have limited experience with it, but i'd probably place it in either D rank or C rank, depending on how my testing turns out, it has a definite niche in Shadow Tag, thats for sure!

    Also, here is the proposed change for this round (holy shitstorm .-.)

    Moltres down from S rank -----> A rank

    Im going to honestly say i also strongly disagree with moving Moltres down to A rank. While Stealth Rock is admittedly a problem for any Moltres user, its not like Moltres is completely useless even if Stealth Rock is up, it still has those impressively powerful dual STABs and reliable recovery in the form of to work with, and even with Stealth Rock up, it can still find opportunities to switch in against various defensive Grass-types, Steelix iirc, and things like Escavalier who struggle to break through Moltres even when its at half hp. When Stealth Rock isnt up, Moltres is a true monster to behold, and nobody can deny thing, with just its STAB moves alone, i can only thing of two Pokemon in RU that can reliably switch into Moltres: Specially defensive Regirock and Lanturn, not just do these two lack reliable recovery, but they also take a fair amount from Hidden Power Grass as well, making them less solid as counters. As mentioned by many users before me, its rather easy to keep Stealth Rock off the field in a tier where the two best spinners in the tier effortlessly swat away the spinblockers, and one of them (Kabutops) even shares excellent synergy with Moltres otherwise. Moltres is also seen as a metagame defining Pokemon, one of the main qualities most S rank Pokemon have, when i think of a Pokemon i absolutely have to have a way to check to be successful, Moltres is one of the first Pokemon that comes to mind (along with Nidoqueen and Sceptile). Honestly, while Moltres does have some flaws that hold it back when not dealt with (even though dealing with them is super easy) I'd still say that its positive traits outweigh its negative traits by a really large margin, and that these positive traits are enough to keep it S rank, imo.

    Also, to answer your question, Tornadus-T was S rank in the OU thread before being sent off to Ubers despite needing direct support from Politoed to function anwhere near its full potential, unless you mean only RU pokes.

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