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Discussion in 'Ruins of Alph' started by Molk, Oct 5, 2012.
I agree with DittoCrow's ranking in their entirety, with Moltres in low.
Does anyone else have any opinions on this? If not, ill be updating this within 24 hours, like texas, i totally agree with Dittocrow's proposal for S rank as long as we put moltres in low, so if there's no more discussion on this that's what ill probably go with for now.
I think DittoCrow's list and reasoning, however I feel Druddigon should be low.
DittoCrow's reasons don't only have other pokemon, even bastiodon for roar and SR does it better sinne it has better defensive typing and defenses, but the lack of good recovery and minimal speed should put it in low I feel.
Edit for below: Cbt... missing the point entirely and thinking I was talking about how bastiodon is amazing in RU (which, for the record, it is not). I was saying that each individual thing another pokemon can do just as well or better, but Druddigon still deserves to be S since it can do such things and another thing decently well. It just deserves to be low S.
Since when was Steel/Rock a good defensive typing? It has multiple 4x weaknesses to common attacking types, and unlike pokemon like Bastiodon, Druddigon can do a fair amount of damage without any investment due to its natural attacking power. Bastiodon may have good defenses, but is let down by its lack of reliable recovery, multiple 4x weaknesses, and lack of offensive presence, the latter 2 of which Druddigon doesn't have.
Okay, ive updated S rank to match Dittocrow's proposal for the top/mid/low ranks, and we will be moving on to A rank for the time being, for reference, this is what S rank looks like right now!
So S-Rank is pretty agreeable. At this point, now for the A-Rank. Here's what I think the ranks should be, feel free to disagree with me here.
Absol, Durant, Gallade, Kabutops, Lilligant, Rotom (both), Smeargle
Absol is top notch A-Rank imo. This beast is great; he's got 130 Attack, Sucker Punch+Superpower, and great overall power. He can be an awesome sweeper with SD and just beat the fuck out out of everything. He can even grab Fire Blast and incinerate Tangrowth and Steelix, or maybe run T-bolt for Poliwrath thanks to a usable 75 SpA. Absol is hands down the top offensive Dark-type of this tier.
Durant is a great sweeper. He has Hone Claws and Hustle, so he can pack incredible power. He's got Superpower to put Steelix to Sturdy level, and much more. Durant's an awesome sweeper overall.
Gallade is the top Fighting-type of RU, in the same manner Absol is top Dark here imo. SD and Bulk Up make Gallade a powerful attacker, so he can hit pretty damn hard. Psycho Cut or Zen Headbutt are neat too, so yeah. Overall, Gallade is pretty awesome in RU and is high level A-Rank.
Kabutops is a solid and useful Pokemon. He's the best spinner in RU, and he's a great attacker too. He can hit really hard after an SD boost, boasts nice coverage, and is just one of the most reliable spinners in RU (Fuck Cryo). He even a good rain sweeper, so yeah. Pretty solid, reliable, and just useful overall.
Lilligant is an awesome sweeper. Like, among the best in RU. Quiver Dance puts her on a level that her power and speed make her nigh impossible to beat. With decent coverage (not that great coverage, but decent), she can sweep with relative ease after numerous boosts. She also has Sleep Powder to incapacitate an opponent, literally eliminating them, and also allowing her to grab boosts more easily. I guess Munchlax and Escavalier can take advantage of it with Sleep Talk, the former walling her to death and the latter KO'ing easily, but she doesn't really fucking care. Munchlax sucks, Esca is KO'd by HP Fire, and her sweeping prowess, although limited with the coverage issues and typing, yeah, but is still a top A-Rank sweeper imo.
Rotom-N is cool. It's great and pretty diverse. It can be used to beat a variety of spinners. A set with T-Bolt wrecks Tops a new one, SubToxic beats Cryo, and also Sandslash and the Shitmons too. It's also got a pretty brilliant typing too and offers some nice resistances, not to mention Wisp is also great. It's also not predictable. Overall, high level A, best Ghost-type in RU.
Rotom-C....He's pretty cool too, like his unattached cousin. He's diverse and can disrupt you with Volt Switch. He also makes some awesome Taco Storms that hit pretty hard, and can run Scarf, Specs, or Support or even Rain. Overall, I'd say Rotom-C is pretty diverse.
Smeargle is one of the best hazard setters. An amazing Baton Passer. And even a suicide TR lead. I do not need to explain further.
Cinccino, Cryogonal, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Tangrowth
Cinccino is a pretty vicious late game cleaner tbh. It's packs a shit ton of power and high Speed, outspeeding almost everything. Pretty decent coverage, except on Steelix and Magneton. Also King's Rock is annoying as fuck, so yeah. Mid, maybe high A-Rank.
Cryogonal is one of the best spinners. It makes a great check to special attackers such as Sceptile and Nidoqueen, both of who dislike Ice Beam. It's also an excellent spinner, although weak to SR, it is immune to Spikes, and also it's capable of removing shit like Rotom, as well as some hazard setters like Rhydon, Roselia, Sandslash (lol), and others. Can also run an offensive set. Weak defense and dismal movepool and typing hold it back, but still an excellent spinner.
Poliwrath is an awesome tank. It has great bulk, and can burn physical attackers with Scald, and phaze with Circle Throw. It also has nice resistances that allow it to take on Absol, Entei, Escavalier, and some more. It's also capable of running SubPunch as well. Pretty good, albeit underrated tank in general.
Qwilfish is one of the best bulky spikers. It can check Emboar, Entei, Durant, Escavalier, and more. It also has Spikes, and T-Wave, Taunt, etc. Qwil also has Intimidate and such, and also much shit in this. It's so good it's mid A.
Tangrowth is a good physical wall. It can wall a myriad of physical attackers bar Escavalier/Durant/Entei. Regen and Leech Seed as well as Sleep Powder also make it a nice wall. Great wall, although struggles with Escavalier/Nidoqueen, which can be solved via the use of teammates, like Slowking and even Nidoqueen (I guess, lol)
Emboar, Jynx, Rotom-F, Sigilyph Spiritomb, Tauros, Zangoose
Emboar is a good Pokemon, sporting fine coverage and also some power. Scarf and Band are both solid in RU. Pretty awesome Pokemon overall. Great power makes it almost impossible to counter directly, although it has competition from Entei.
Jynx is a very good Pokemon, and can use Lovely Kiss to literally incapacitate an opponent and set up NP. With Hail, Blizzard and other moves will hit pretty hard. It has a fine Speed tier too. But it's not that good though, and super frail physically. Hail is why it's even A-Rank.
Rotom-F is awesome in hail, that's for sure. But it needs the hail to be consistent. Otherwise Blizzard will miss a lot. Other than that, it's got meh Speed, although outspeeding Absol/Nidoqueen is good. It is also weak to a lot of shit. But great coverage and nice hail attacker is good.
Sigi is alright. Usable stallbreaker with CP, although that set does not get threatening fast enough. CM though is great and can do work.
Spiritomb honestly does not function that well in RU and is not too beneficial for most teams to run. It does not have many notable resistances, and is fairly mediocre offensively. It'a a meh Pokemon.
Tauros is a good wallbreaker, but it's Rock Climb and Fire Blast are both infuriating and can miss at the most crucial time. Sometimes, it cannot hit hard enough. Though Tauros is indeed great and underrated. Low A seems right.
Zang is great, but it's frail as fuck and speedsters like Cinccino, Sceptile, and Scolipede kill it. All I need to say.
So that's my opinions. Feel free to disagree.
I disagree with Smeargle being High A-rank. Spore is dangerous, as sap sippers and Vitual spirit magmortar get a free switch in. Smeargle also relies way to much on Focus sash and pokemon like cinncino can take advantage of this.
Since I missed the whole S-rank discussion, I'll join the A-rank:
Absol, Gallade, Smeargle, Kabutops, Durant, Rotom-N, Rotom-C, Cinccino
130 base attack makes Absol the best Pursuit trappers of the tier, while still packing strong Sucker Punch and Superpower, anduntil something drops from UU it will be this way. Gallade is the best setup sweeper of the tier, being able to run either Bulk Up or Swords Dance, while packing the coverage of the elemental punches and a priority move that hits ghost types. Smeargle can easily set any hazard while still being able to put something to sleep, but can also run a Baton Pass or Trick Room set, showing how unpredictable it can be. Kabutops have enough offensive pressure to spin hazards away and get rid of spinblockers, while being able to sweep with setup. Durant is a stronger Kabutops that can't spin, Hustle and Hone Claws makes it a monster, while thanks to its high speed even for higher tiers makes a choice set also viable, packing immediate power. Rotom-N acts like a great spinblocker, but having 95 SAtk it still can do some damage, while its nice 91 Spe makes it outspeed threats like unboosted Lilligant, Moltres and Hitmonlee. Rotom-C can do as nice as its brothers on the above tiers, specially in RU thanks to the huge damage Leaf Storm can do and low, even still somewhat threatening, presence of fire and bug threats, being able to run a defensive set too. Cinccino can pack King's Rock, and be one of the most annoying pokemon to fight, paired to Liepard and Whimsicott, except because it can actually damage you, while either a Life Orb or Band set can tear a few holes in most teams thanks to its 115 speed, while by holding a Scarf it can revenge kill most scarfers of the tier, also it is one of the best pokemon to bypass Focus Sash.
Cryogonal, Poliwrath, Qwilfish, Tangrowth, Lilligant, Jynx
Cryogonal is one of the of the pokemon that really appreciated hail return, giving it the possibility to run the strong Blizzard instead of Ice Beam, while being a nice spinner thanks to its 135 SDef and 105 Spe and Levitate; unfortunatelly its typing makes it weak to Stealth Rock, lowering its longevity as a spinner, and terrible physical stats makes it have hard times against most physical sweepers. Jynx also appreciates hail return, also because of Blizzard perfect accuracy, while it still packs 115 SAtk and 95 Spe, while not being outstanding still is nice for a tier that lacks special attackers, Jynx also have Lovely Kiss and Nasty Plot, meaning it can easily setup and attempt a sweep, and a water immunity thanks to Dry Skin; but just like Cryogonal, Jynx have terrible physical stats, while Dry Skin means that even a weak fire move can KO it. Lilligant is the best special sweeper of the tier thanks to packing Quiver Dance and Sleep Power, meaning it is quite easy to setup; but Lilligant suffers in coverage, since it have to cover most threats possible in 2 moves, being one of them Hidden Power, most of the times, so a complete sweep sometimes isn't possible even at +3; Qwilfish only lose to Smeargle as a spiker, and it still can act a bulk water thanks to its typing and Intimidate, and thanks to a nice 85 Spe and taunt it is an answer to Smeagles that lacks Magic Coat; but Qwilfish typing ended making its weakness greater, since most psychics and eletric moves are special based, being killed easily by these moves since 65 HP isn't high. Poliwrath can take hits from many physical threats of the tier thanks to its typing and decent bulk in 90/95/90 stats, being able to burn and phaze while packs a immunity to water helps in its role as a tank; unfortunately psychics are more common in this tier since it can counter the few threatening fightings and Nidoqueen, which means it will get hit together. Tangrowth is a nice wall thanks to its 125 Def and 100 HP paired with Regenerator, while it still have all the grass support moves in Sleep Powder, Stun Spore and Leech Seed with 100 Atk and 110 SAtk to do some damage; but 50 SDef isn't ideal to a pokemon that carries fire and ice weakness, while grass are severely damaged by most top offensive threats of the tier.
Emboar, Rotom-F, Sigilyph, Spiritomb, Tauros, Zangoose
Emboar is one of the pokes that came from NU, and got a solid spot in the metagame as a sweeper with a Scarf or a wallbreaker with a Band, while fight/fire is a good offensive typing; unfortunately Emboar's movepool, even though having a nice coverage, isn't the best around since it must rely in recoil moves (even though it packs a nice 110 HP), also it didn't get neither Close Combat or Hi Jump Kick its cousin starters got, and Superpower isn't a nice move to attempt a sweep, 65 Spe also is really low for a poke that attempt a sweep and relies in recoil moves. Rotom-F is inferior to it grass cousin specially because of its typing, since ice is weak to Stealth Rock and fighting while not even being half as effective offensively as ice moves are in the other tiers; if it wasn't for hail Rotom-F wouldn't get a spot here at all, since Blizzard paired with 105 SAtk and 86 Spe still is something. Spiritomb have nice physical and special stats, being 92 in the offensive and 108 in the defensive, and doesn't have a weakness (except for Scrappy users); but 35 Spe limits its offensive presence, while 50 HP limits its defensive presence, meaning that even by having all around stats it can hit hard enough nor take all the hits you wished it could, but it also means that it can be either pack an offensive or defensive set quite well. Sigilyph have a great ability in Magic Guard, meaning it doesn't care about poison, burn or Stealth Rock; Sigilyph is also the best stallbreaker of the tier thanks to its decent 72/80/80 defensive stats and a nice 97 Spe, even an offensive set is viable with its 103 SAtk; but just like all setuppers Sigilyph is really weak to phazers and taunters since it really depends on setting up to work properly. Tauros and Zangoose, even working quite different, share the same weaknesses: they both are vulnerable to fighting moves, can be walled by a rock or steel wall and will miss a lot of KOes without hazards. Tauros works like a physical Nidoqueen, but with a poorer coverage, explaining it sticks in a lower rank than Queen. Zangoose works just like most Guts sweepers: hit as hard as possible before it is worn down, huge power comes with huge prices, unless you're an Uber pokemon; I really wished it had Extremespeed, since it relies on Quick Attack to deal with faster pokemon; short story is Zangoose is weak to itself.
Sap Sippers are quite rare, while except for Magmortar and Primeape most pokes that carry Vital Spirit or similar abilities are mediocre. Unfortunately (or fortunately, for Smeargle) Cinccino is still quite rare to face, even though its popularity is growing. And Smeargle still can Baton Pass Quiver Dance. Don't forget that 75 Spe is nice in the RU environment, being able to outspeed many things, specially Nidoqueen. Smeargle have weakness, and that's why it is an A-rank, but still a top one because it can't act only as a suicide lead.
I've been running a set with Magic Coat/Spikes/Endeavor/Spore, paired with a Steelix, and most common counters of the painter dog are shut down, specially by Magic Coat.
This is honestly the dumbest reason for calling something a stallbreaker that i have ever read.
And btw, CP set is terrible and no one is scared of it. Sigilyph doesn't even need to set up to 2hko everything relevant in the tier at worst with minimal hazard supports.So your reasons for it are dumb in general and most likely based on one of the worst sets someone can use in this tier.
Good luck finding a rock type not called regirock and rhydon that can hope to take on these 2.
Well, it seems that fortunately for me I had only experiences with CP Sigyliph, so I may be wrong in this since I never faced a Life Orb set, to be sincere. Also, CP set can work quite well against stall, because it is the kind of team that gives more time to it setup, even though they packs a phazer.
Max HP Aggron have a nice chance to survive Tauros' Earthquake. And Zangoose, again, was my fault, since I missed it got Close Combat. I used Tauros for myself, and relying in moves without a perferct accuracy isn't nice to him, meaning it can miss a crucial hit. Zangoose, on the other hand, is way harder to deal, the best option against it is stalling, even though Zangoose for me is more of theroymon too.
Not only stall is a joke that will never be viable again until the day game freak makes everything a Lugia without making everything as strong as possible , an all out attacker set does that way better without needing to set up. Not being useless against more offensive oriented teams is way better than being a crit magnet that is ruined by any dark type that can avoid the burn(liepard) or doesn't care about it(lum Crawdaunt, Crotomb, Scraggy, and champion Houndour).
And you suggest a mon that needs to rely on an 80% accuracy move to deal with tauros? And Tauros doesn't need to use rock climb at all because Return is still pretty powerful and will get the job done most of the time.
The deal with Tauros is avoiding LO recoil to keep a higher durability, and if with Rock Climb I already missed some damage, I wouldn't have a nice experience with Return. Also, CB max Atk Adamant Aggron's Heavy Slam (only set that is worth running max HP) has a better chance of KOing Naive Tauros than the opposite just because of LO recoil.
And about Sigilyph, well, I only faced bad sets, it seems, so I can't say many things about it.
Durant can completely rip teams apart. It is fast and powerful, has fairly good defensive typing for an offensive pokemon, and his 3 attacks, X-scissor, Iron head and stone edge have surprisingly good coverage. It can run either hone claws or all-out offensive with superpower over hone claws. The raw speed, power and offensive presence of this pokemon should place it in A top.
Sigilyph can easily destroy teams if you don't have the right preparation for it. It burns the physical attackers, so it can put EVs into special defense instead. The stored power is by far the best set, since it has good defensive typing (kinda) but the cosmic power and roost can have you stalling for ages, especially against the physical attackers that it burns far more reliably than will - o - wisp. Those flinches it gets from air slash too puts it deservedly in top A. It can run a majority of sets though, since it doesn't take damage from life orb it can run an offensive set too so this places it even more securely into top.
Lilligant has an extremely dangerous combo in own tempo and petal dance, as well as access to an extremely rare but extremely good set-up attack in quiver dance gives it an extremely deadly set as long as you put sleep powder on it as well. The most common types that resist grass, flying, fire and bug, are disposed of with hidden power rock in the final position, even though a boosted petal dance can get rid of things like magmortar in 2 hits, it is still worth the spot. If you would prefer synthesis in the place of hidden power, then it can work too. Lilligant is also very good at abusing the sun, a chlorophyll scarf set with that brilliant special attack in theory would work great, but generally I would just stick with the quiver dance set as it is just so good.
Tangrowth is pretty much THE physical wall for RU. Only its lack of offensive presence leaves it out of S, so there is not that much to say. RU kinda lacks many physical walls, so just the fact that Tangrowth is a physical wall, and a brilliant one at that, should place it in the top of A.
Zangoose is an extremely good sweeper in even RU. It is fast, powerful, almost flawless coverage... so that is why it should be in top. The toxic orb and toxic boost is by far the best set, but if you want to feel original you can attempt a swords dance set.
Qwilfish is arguably the best hazard setter in RU. It has pretty nice defensive typing, weak to ground and electric, but resisting fighting. It has fairly good defensive stats, but they are not the best. It deserves to be mid as there are not that many defensive pokemon in RU, and Qwilfish has very much usable attack letting it stall for a while by getting flinches from powerful waterfalls.
Absol has incredibly good attack, and with swords dance to boost it, it can manage a sucker punch sweep once it gets a swords dance up. Well, unless it faces the monster that is linoone (espeed ftw!). The thing stopping it from becoming top A is its down-right abysmal speed for RU when its not using sucker punch and its frailty. Additionally for his coverage some people resort to using fire blast off of his clearly worse special attack.
This thing is surprisingly dangerous in RU! What used to be one of the most renowned threats in NU was moved up into RU recently, but it didn't disappoint! It is fast and powerful, landing 5 hits with every move besides U-turn on most sets. It can be scarfed, banded or life orb(ed). The problem with it is that it can't dispatch most of the things in the tier in one (or rather 5) hits, leaving it out of the top of A. I don't know if I am being harsh or anything, but I just feel Cinccino isn't quite as good as the likes of Lilligant, Sigilyph or Durant...
Gallade is extremely dangerous. It has brilliant coverage in that of fighting and psychic, it gets priority in shadow sneak, which is unfortunately not STAB, and then has a coverage move to boot. It has nice offensive presence, however it doesn't have the best attack stat in RU and it doesn't have extraordinary speed either.
Poliwrath is an extremely good wall in RU. It is a great shuffler with circle throw, can run an offensive set with bulk up and has pretty great coverage in water and fighting. The problem with him is that he can only recover health with rest, making it so that you have to choose between water or fighting on a bulk up set. You can run a bulk up and circle throw ResTalk set pretty effectively though, and it can really hurt teams. The problem with Poliwrath is the aforementioned lack of recovery for a defensive pokemon, as well as the fact that its attack is kinda disappointing without you boosting it from bulk up as well, placing it in the middle of A for me.
Rotom mow is basically the substitute offensive grass type in RU. It doesn't hit as hard as Lilligant, doesn't have access to things like sleep powder but is faster than lilligant. Unfortunately, being out classed by just that little bit I feel should put it one mini-tier behind the thing out-classing it, since it is still incredibly usable and works incredibly well.
Spiritomb is the best spin blocker in RU, period. It is a far better wall than Dusknoir, which is practically Spiritomb's only competition. It has that flawless tpying we all know and hate, and it packs a punch. It can burn physical attackers, but there are a couple of flaws it has. First of all is its shalloe movepool in terms of coverage, having it walled by lots of pokemon easily, such as Nidoqueen or Absol. Then is its abysmal speed, it is abysmal. It is definitely deserving to be in the middle of A though, as it has those niches shared with dusknoir, which should never be used. Never.
Emboar is dangerous, yes, but it is not as dangerous as the likes of poliwrath placing it low. It makes up for its speed with a scarf set usually, but can also run bands or life orbs. Right now, I find it at the top of low A (yes, that does make sense) and once reckless is released I see it shooting all the way up to top A, but for now it either needs a scarf for it to be fast, but it loses some essential OHKOs, or it can get those OHKOs at the expense of the needed speed.
I'm sorry, but I don't see Cryogonal being good in RU. It is a far too inferior Slowking, and that is it. The only thing I see it good for is rapid spin, but since it is weak to stealth rocks it will not quite be as good. I really see no point in ever using it and that is why in my propositions for tier changes at the bottom of this post I have proposed it to be moved down. A bit of my reasoning though, is that while it is both fast and specialy defensive, practically anything with priority, but especially fake out, completely dispatch it, since even unSTAB'd Fake out leave far too big a dent in it to be good. When I was a nub and used normal gem fake out medicham, it got rid of cryogonal in a single hit. Yeah. That is just sad.
Jynx can run specs pretty reliably, and has great offensive typing in that of psychic and ice. However, it has terrible speed and possibly worse defensive typing. It does not deserve to be B, since it has incredible special attack and pretty good bulk in terms of stats.
Tauros, is powerful, fairly bulky and fast. It also has nice coverage. The problem is that its stats fall in comparison to the other threats in RU, so while it is nicely well-rounded (and not like Glalie) it isn't quite as good as other threats in the tier.
Kabutops is deadly in rain, and can completely wreck teams once it gets a swords dance up. The problem with him, like Absol, is that it is pretty frail and frightfully slow. It gets a little more bulk than Absol in expense of power, but it is again even slower than Absol. It doesn't get priority either. Like Emboar, I feel it the top of low A, and I don't think it quite on par with the threats in mid putting it in low though...
Smeargle is very unpredictable, the majority of them use spore, but they can set up hazards, baton pass and then even more things. The stats let this thing down, generally meaning it has to have a focus sash to be used effectively.
Rotom-N and Rotom-F: I have not used these, but on papaer they look like they should be in low.
Rotom-F UNTESTED but LOW
Rotom-N UNTESTED but LOW
Writing this I noticed a few out-of-place pokemon I think should be changed in placement;
Dusknoir down to E rank
Medicham up to A rank
Hariyama up to B rank
Cryogonal down to C rank, is not, then at least B
I might edit this post with reasoning later, but for now I can just let you argue over my placements, since if medicham got into A I would be putting it in at least mid.
Oh, also to see if any of you are sharp-eyed I made a mistake in there on purpose, it doesn't effect the placement at all, but I just think it would be interesting to see if anyone notices it and posts it here.
Smeargle belongs on exactly the same level as moltres. iIt is devastating against unprepared teams but if they prepare for it it's average at best and a large amount of the time a wasted teamslot against prepared-for teams.
Cryo is solid A-Rank. It's the second best spinner, can check some special threats such as Nidoqueen and Sceptile (something King can't check), as well as some others. Note that I said check, as it is still 2HKO'd by Focus Blast. It is also capable of spinning, which its immunity to Spikes also helps as well. It is also fast, unlike Slowking. Overall, just a solid and reliable spinner in RU. It is definitely an A-Ranked Pokemon.
Disagree with Medicham and Hari. They're fine where they are. Medicham could be A, but at least high B.
Dusknoir...uh, no. At this point it's pretty much been agreed Dusknoir is D minimum and D maximum, because it's slightly better than Munchlax/Sandslash (I still think the slash should be E-Rank, but whatever)
It is already pretty bulky physically and fast, making high durability not a big deal when it can avoid most damage not coming from priority already, and even priority is lucky if it breaks 40% depending on the ability. Hazards will wear it down easily anyway and Intimidate is still a pretty good ability allowing it to run other sets if needed.
Aggron is also a TERRIBLE check to Tauros; stop trying to say it is close to viable check for him when it is only a smeargle away from being ohkoed And inb4 BUT SPINNNER, Max HP aggron would only fit on a trick room team, and those can't afford to sacrifice a slot on a spinner when they could just be nuking everything with strong as hell attacks. It is also fucked hard by sub Tauros, which is a pretty solid set factoring intimidate and how easily tauros scares out shit.
So you think smeargle should be S tier!? If so then you should probably propose it.
Smeargle itself can't rip teams apart, merely the thing it baton passes to can. Hopefully the thing it baton passes to can fair well enough without the boosts anyway, and because of this a lot of the leads like crustle have rock blast. Generally you just slap a move on a pokemon and it completely dispatches it, moltres takes far more preperation to counter, even going to a whole move slot if your team has that much trouble with it.
I never said Aggron was a check for Tauros, damn, Aggron typing makes it a terrible poke to try check things... I only said it could survive a Tauros' hit. Also, I run a Trick Room team, so the extra bulk is quite useful indeed, and this is the set I have familiarity. As I said, most of what I said come from MY experiences, while your opinion should came from YOUR experiences, so these differences were obvious to appear. I only said what I think about these threats, and you are free to agree or not. You even changed my mind in some threats I really never faced in my laddering times since the Cresselia suspect round like Zangoose and other Sigilyph sets besides the Cosmic Power set.
Tauros packs a lot of power, but for MY experiences, it always lacked some damage output to be a top threat: while even carring a EdgeQuake coverage (thanks to Sheer Force boost on Rock Slide) these moves usually covers pokemon with naturally high physical defense, making harder the work on breaking it. Also, with a Intimidate, what Tauros get in durability it loses in sheer power, and the best setup moves Tauros get are Work Up and Substitute, meaning that if these are run along Tauros will miss many coverage moves; without Sheer Force Tauros can't 2HKO defensive Tangrowth reliably. And with a Substitute set it suffers direct competition to Bouffalant, which even though really slower than Tauros, have an overal better bulk, a immunity with Sap Sipper and access to Swords Dance.
I should have done better comments in all these three pokes that made all this discussion, but it was past 3 am here, I was sleepy and it was missing only these 3 guys to end my opinion on all the A-ranked ones to simply rewrite everything again or save the text for later, so probably I really did a bad job there.
Except for the part where you did.
Rock Slide is only hitting Rotom and nothing else. A neutral rock climb hits pretty much everything relevant almost s hard(hazards make the difference not a big deal at all). And except for Regirock and Rhydon, Tauros can beat all physically bulky mons pretty easily with the correct viable move. And forgot one thing, Tauros hits harder than queen with its strongest move. Power is not everything as Rampardos, Medicham, and Kyurem-B have been proving for quite some time now.
So 100 base attack with high powered moves, and life orb is is lacking in power? Okay, good to know. Tauros gets this move called Double-Edge, so it is not missing power, it is actually the opposite, he gains a stronger move with perfect accuracy to hit stuff really hard. Sure the recoil sucks, but the power is worth it.
It misses no coverage moves because Substitute(work up is awful and should never by used at all by any mon in the game) is superior to rock slide in every single way, and as said previously, it only hits rotom.
4 SpA Life Orb Tauros Fire Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tangrowth: 192-229 (47.52 - 56.68%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock. You sure about that?
They are not even similar at all, except for the fact that both are 4 legged normal-typed mons with similar attack stat,
Irrelevant when almost everything will hit it first
Except for whimsicott, all other grass move users have either insane bulk to take on bouff or can easily take it out with other moves easily. Not to mention it is obvious as hell it will have sap sipper.
Only legitimate point here.
I agree with Col's ranking besides two pokemon: Zangoose and Tangrowth. Although Zangoose is one of the most deadliest RU Pokemon with the fact of Toxic Boost, incredible coverage and the ability of even raise more its Attack with Swords Dance, its has flaws that dont make that great. Zangoose defenses are pretty bad, really it take a lot of damage from even neutral moves, for example uninvested Uxie does around 40% with Psychic or Slowking does around 50% with Scald, and makes it a lot vulnarable to piority users. Unite this with the damage from hazads and toxic recoil, and Zangoose will die very quickly, really, Zangoose needs partner with Volt Switch / U-turn, because its too risky switch in with it. I think that Low its better for it, or maybe mid.
Tangrowth is one of the best physical wall in the tier, and can even use it fantistic offensive stats with good moves like Leaf Storm, Focus Blast etc. But I dont think in the metagame isnt that great. The fact that in BW2 appear a lot of physical sweepers that can break tangrowth with ease like Ecavalier, Durant, Absol, Tauros, Fraxure, Druddigon etc. Also tangrowth struggles with hail team and against those it become to be a practically ead weight. Add that the natural offense of the metagame dont leave to much opportunitties for tangrowth, for this i thik thats its best mid for it
Because I don't want to be redundant and im on my ipod I agree with Col49's rankings with the exception of a few mons.
Durant deserves to be Top tier mainly because its immediate power is astounding. It has a really nice speed stat and quite a number resistances, meaning setting up isn't really all difficult since it scares off so much. Sometimes it doesn't even need the free turn - an unboosted hit hurts extremely badly due to Hustle and the Possible Life Orb boost... which is already quite potent if you can accept the fact it may miss.
Zangoose needs to be Mid-Tier or Low-Tier. While it is extremely powerful, it is also extremely frail and hard to switch in. Having legitimately no resistances doesn't help this fact at all. It is also a bit easy to revenge kill since Quick Attack and 90 base speed is meh. It comes with a huge reward no doubt, but having that free turn to set up is difficult to find (by that I mean letting the orb activate) Having almost no counters doesn't mean it doesn't avoid getting Koed by so much, though it does mean it is hard to stop. Seems like a mid or low tier to me.
Taurus for some reason has always failed to impress me whenever I use it or lay against it either due to it not taking hits as well as I thought it would (doesn't have that great of a bulk on the special side and has no resistances so I can't switch it in) or it doesn't do enough damage (does enough to 2HKO me but then I OHKO it). I really have nothing to argue against it being in low rather than mid due to stories of success, but it has not been as much of a threat to me as everything else in mid to me, even when I don't even bother thinking about it as a threat. I guess my best reasoning is "just not good enough."
Edit: Looking at the post below I wouldn't mind Rotom being B-Tier, it feels more like a niche than an actual threat when I use it (though pretty nice for a niche), and its a meh spinblocker. I agree with the Accelgor bit too
In no particular order:
In my opinion Poliwrath is the best physical wall in RU. The number of top threats that it puts a stop to includes Entei, Escavalier, Kabutops, Spiritomb, Cryogonal, Emboar, Durant, and Absol (it's a good check to the latter two). It's a great team supporter but unfortunately it can't do anything to the Psychic-types in the tier. Nevertheless it should still be top A Rank.
Durant doesn't have many good switch-ins at all, and it can very easily severely damage an opposing team or just sweep through it late-game. Since it's one of the biggest threats in the tier, I think it should go to top A Rank.
Gallade is similar to Durant in that it doesn't have many switch-ins and is one of the best and most powerful sweepers in the tier. It becomes very hard to stop Gallade late-game so I think that it's one of the most threatening setup sweepers in RU.
Spiritomb is extremely useful in RU, being one of the few mons to beat Gallade while also Pursuit trapping the many Psychic-types found everywhere such as Uxie, Slowking, and Sigilyph. It is also one of the only effective Ghost-types that beats Cryogonal, has a strong Sucker Punch, and can spread Will-O-Wisp. I think that Spiritomb is a very important Pokemon and thus deserves top A Rank.
Smeargle is the best hazard setting in the tier. The only thing keeping it from being S Rank is that teams are so prepared for it whether it be running a fast Taunt user, a Sleep Talk user, Lum Berry, or something like Vital Spirit. Every team should make sure that they can beat Smeargle, or they will be in for a rough battle. I could probably even see it at low S Rank, but I'm not going to nom it for now.
Rotom-C is an amazing Pokemon, being a great revenge killer or pivot. Its Volt Switch is so frustrating, hitting decently hard and giving its team momentum. Rotom-C can also run support moves such as Will-O-Wisp or Thunder Wave, and check a large number of threats. It also has great typing allowing it to fit onto teams with ease.
I was on the edge about Kabutops, but that's probably because I run Poliwrath so much... but a big reason for that is Kabutops. Kabutops is no doubt the best spinner in the tier, and also even more threatening if it gets a Swords Dance off. It is perfect for offensive teams that need Rapid Spin and can function well in a FWG core.
Lilligant is something that is extremely hard to prepare for, as it can remove its checks from the game with Sleep Powder. I was going to consider it for top A, but when you think about it, a lot of Pokemon such as Escavalier, Entei, and Emboar run Sleep Talk, and Lilligant can get screwed over depending on its Hidden Power choice. Lum Berry is also quite common, so something like Lum Berry Durant or Gallade can check it. Uxie with Thunder Wave checks Lilligant, as well as the extremely common Druddigon. Basically I don't think that Lilligant is as effective as it once was, but is still a scary threat, so mid A Rank should be fine :3.
Emboar is so important because it is one of the only offensive checks to Escavalier, Lilligant, and Durant, and it also resists Sucker Punches and Grass-type moves. It is also a Fire-type that isn't weak to SR, which is extremely useful imo. Emboar is a great revenge killer with a Choice Scarf, and also quite powerful. The things keeping it from top A rank are its Speed and the recoil it takes from Flare Blitz etc.
Cryogonal is pretty much the only other viable spinner in the tier. It also comes with the bonus of checking Nidoqueen, which is very important. Lots of teams naturally beat Cryogonal without even trying though, and its Stealth Rock weakness and not being able to run 252 SpDef (unless you want to get wrecked by Pursuit users) puts a lot of pressure on it. Cryogonal is more valuable on defensive teams, which is where it shines. I wouldn't be opposed to putting it at Low A Rank though.
Sigilyph is another one of the most threatening special sweepers in the tier. If the opponent is not running Spiritomb or Absol, it will most likely get a KO. It is very hard to deal with, though not unstoppable as Pokemon such as Kabutops or Druddigon can take a hit and KO. I would even consider it for top A Rank, but I'm on the fence atm.
Tauros just doesn't cut it for me. It's not so threatening that I feel like I'm at a disadvantage if I don't put a dedicated check on my team. It's still a good mon, just not as threatening as the other A Rank Pokemon.
So many people run Spiritomb and priority users such as Entei and Kabutops, which really hurts Zangoose's effectiveness. What's more, Zangoose has trouble getting a chance to set up, and even if it does, it has to rely on a weak Quick Attack to hit faster Pokemon like Durant and Scarf Rotom-C. It doesn't stay around for long either due to the damage from Toxic Orb and other random damage from hazards or Kabutops's Aqua Jet. The only thing keeping it in A Rank imo is that it can severely damage an opposing team and clean up unprepared teams late-game.
Accelgor is extremely threatening late-game, where it can sweep teams once their Scarf or priority user has fainted. The biggest downside to Accelgor is that it's really frail, but otherwise I feel that it's a great sweeper in RU.
Jynx is in the same boat as Lilligant, in that many teams are prepared for it with Sleep Talk users and other things. It also has four-moveslot syndrome, having to forego one of Substitute or Nasty Plot if it wants to beat Escavalier, Entei, or Cryogonal. It simply gets checked by too many things and can't beat them. Jynx is also extremely frail on the physical side, and Pokemon such as Spiritomb or even Gallade's Shadow Sneak can do a number on her.
Nominating Rotom-N for B Rank. It is insanely frail and lack reliable recovery, meaning that it can't even take hits from Kabutops and Escavalier and gets worn down incredibly easily. The bulky set is also pretty weak offensively and still doesn't do well vs the powerful attackers in such an offensive metagame. I simply do not think that Rotom is very effective.
Undecided on Rotom-F, because I feel like it's easy to deal with and the Scarf set is outclassed by Glaceon. The SubSplit set seems threatening but I haven't seen it used effectively enough.
I'm either undecided on the rest or don't feel like posting, but I could definitely make a post later about Qwilfish, Cinccino, Rotom-F, Absol, and Tangrowth.
I dont have a full opinion on the top/mid/low for A rank yet, but i'll comment on the some of the proposals.
Definitely going to support Accelgor moving to low A rank with the new rating system, Accelgor is a pretty good Pokemon in RU overall, being one of the fast Spikes setters in the tier as well as a great late game cleaner and revenge killer (it has the same speed stat as scarf medicham with a positive nature :o). The only thing that was really holding me back from putting Accelgor in A rank before was how vulnerable to residual damage and priority he was, he's weak to Stealth Rock and takes damage from all hazards, which combined with Life Orb recoil reduces his already low longetivitity, priority such as Entei's Extremespeed and Absol's Sucker Punch pose a huge problem as well, especially when paired with the previously suggested hazards. I was a bit reluctant to put Accelgor in A rank because of this, but with the new top/mid/low system along with the discovery of Hidden Power Water to get past Nidoqueen, i think promoting Accelgor to low A rank is reasonable, thoughts?
Although Zangoose is one of my favorite Pokemon to use in the current metagame, im going to have to agree with the sentiments of users such as Slory, Swamp-Rocket and Dittocrow. Its probably more appropriate to place Zangoose in mid or possibly low A rank, while Zangoose hits like an absolute truck, has a decent Speed tier, and only one true counter (Spiritomb). Its fraility and lack of longetivity really get to it. Zangoose has trouble switching in because of its lack of resistances and low 73/60/60 defenses, which makes it harder to activate toxic boost without coming in after a KO or using U-turn/Volt Switch/double switching to get it in. Toxic Boost is a double edged sword as well, while it boosts Zangoose's attack to ridiculous levels, the poison damage required to activate it further lowers Zangoose's longetivity, giving it just about 6 turns max to do as much damage as possible. Of course, given Zangoose's level of raw power 3 turns can easily translate into 3 KO's if Zangoose is played well, so it isnt as crippling as it seems. But nonthenless, i think Zangoose is better suited to mid/low A rank, and putting it in top A rank just doesnt seem right to me...
EDIT: btw after some thought, i moved sandslash to low C rank :o
Durant is extremely powerful, only being hindered by its frailty on the special end of the spectrum and (at times) the accuracy of its moves. It more than makes up for these things with its soaring Attack (Thanks to Hustle) and excellent Speed, making it an immediate threat with very few switch-ins. It can do a significant amount of damage to an opponent's team or sweep through it near the end of the match.
Gallade has a very high Attack stat and has access to useful boosting moves, but he's hindered by its average Speed for an offensive threat and his low Defense, making him vulnerable to being revenge killed. He also has moveset problems, as the absence of one move results in him being unable to break several Pokemon that are relevant in RU. Although this moveset problem does trouble him, the only thing that can reliaby switch in to Gallade is Spiritomb, and the opponent will need to play carefully when he gets in for free. I was going to suggest Mid Tier for him, but the more I read what I had typed, the more I realized that Gallade should be Top Tier. I had someone nudge me in the right direction.
Kabutops is the best spinner in the RU tier, with it having the raw power to beat every spinblocker with ease. It can function as a solid revenge killer with Aqua Jet, and with a boost, its Stone Edge can destroy even the bulkiest of support Pokemon, although there are some that can switch into Kabutops with impunity. It's also hindered by its Speed and frailty, but it usually should get the chance to switch in and pull its weight.
Rotom-C is an effective revenge killer and pivot that can keep up the momentum with Volt Switch. Being able to deter Lanturn because of Leaf Storm distinguishes it from other forms of Rotom. It can absorb Trick as well as crippling an opponent's Pokemon with it when it has been decided that Rotom no longer needs its Choice Scarf (Or Specs, but the former is more common since Speed is more important in a primarily offensive metagame). Being immune to all hazards except for Stealth Rock really gives it a lot of utility.
Spiritomb is the best spinblocker in the tier because its Dark-typing removes the Pursuit-weakness commonly associated with the role, which also allows for it to take on other Dark-types more effectively. It is useful for pressuring many of the Psychic-types in the tier with Sucker Punch and Pursuit, and is hands down the best switch-in to Gallade. It's a very vital Pokemon in the RU tier.
Absol has a great Attack stat and strong priority in Sucker Punch, but its low Speed in comparison to other offensive threats in the tier can occasionally make it unreliable since Sucker Punch is exploitable. It is definitely a huge threat that is hard to switch into, but it also has trouble coming in due to its low defenses and small amount of resistances.
Emboar is useful in the RU tier not only because its high Attack stat and its access to high Base Power moves, but also because it serves as an offensive check to the very powerful Escavalier, one of the most threatening Pokemon in the tier, as well as Durant and Lilligant. Its main shortcomings are its low Speed and reliance of recoil moves, but it is still worthy of being Mid Tier A Rank.
Lilligant sits at a respectable speed tier and has access to Quiver Dance and Sleep Powder, giving her utility in putting something to sleep (Sleep is at its strongest in Gen V) and setting up for a sweep late in the game. What goes against her is that many threats are prepared for sleep moves, and she has moveset problems (Has to choose between HP Fire/Rock) that prevent her from doing major damage until her checks have been dealt with.
Poliwrath is a great check to many of the tier's offensive Pokemon like Entei, Kabutops, Crawdaunt, and others, but it is also weak to other common attacking types like Grass/Electric/Psychic, all of which are relatively common in the tier. It is a viable user of RestTalk with the chance of choosing a move with a burn chance in Scald and a move that can force an unfavorable switch for the opponent, but it would be better if Gen V had not changed Sleep mechanics in a way that significantly affects those who are affected by this status.
Qwilfish is a strong check to offensive Fire and Bug-types because of its typing and Intimidate, and is also a viable spiker. It can be tailored for several uses like paralyzing common switch-ins to it with Thunder Wave, crippling slower Pokemon with Taunt, and using Haze to stop set-up sweepers. It has awful Special Defense and moveset problems, but should provide support for teams that desire Spikes.
Sigilyph possesses of the best abilities in the game, and that is Magic Guard. It doesn't take residual damage and suffers no recoil from Life Orb. Don't even talk about Cosmic Power because that set is complete trash and you should be shot for trying to suggest that it is good. It has weaknesses to some common attacking types, but poses an immediate threat with its respectable Special Attack and coverage moves, making it a solidly A Rank Pokemon.
Smeargle is capable of doing many roles (Hazards setter, TR lead, and Baton Passer) and has access to Spore, but I believe there are a few things separating it from the very best A Rank Pokemon. It is very frail and sits with rather middling speed, allowing for the opponent to punch it hard and limit its overall utility while potentially retaining momentum.
Tauros has excellent Speed and is quite a potent attacker with Sheer Force, one of the best abilities in the game for an offensive Pokemon. He also has good coverage, and is hard to wear down because of the lack of Life Orb recoil except when forced to use Earthquake. Giving him hazards support is an effective way of dealing with Spiritomb so that he can defeat it without being forced out and taking in entry hazards damage the next time he comes in.
Zangoose sits at a respectable speed tier and Toxic Boost makes it extremely powerful, but it does have its downfalls with its poor defenses, making it vulnerable to being revenge killed by faster Pokemon and priority. It does have great coverage and high Base Power moves, making it a good choice for coming in after a kill, as there are very few safe switch-ins and it can activate the Toxic Orb in this way. It is very effective late-game because of its raw power.
Accelgor is the fastest spiker in the tier with a blazing Speed stat that puts it above pretty much anything that hasn't boosted its Speed with a Choice Scarf or through some other means. This allows it to get Spikes out quickly and be threatening late-game when the opposing team has been weakened because of its good coverage moves. Its frailty prevents it from being any more than Low Tier A Rank.
Cinccino has excellent Speed and numerous multi-hit moves that can help users play around Focus Sash and Substitute, making it very useful for offensive teams. Despite being very powerful, it has major trouble with breaking Steel-types and Pokemon that have very high physical bulk like Tangrowth because of its coverage issues.
Cryogonal is the only viable spinner other than Kabutops in RU, and this gives it a certain niche. It's cursed with the worst defensive typing in the game, resulting in it being weak to some of the very best attacking types in the game, and being hindered by Stealth Rock. Another one of its shortcomings is the very poor Defense stat, which requires for it to invest heavily in defense to prevent it from extremely vulnerable to Pursuit users. What it does have going for it is Levitate, Recover, and its nice Speed, allowing for it to evade Spikes, recover from damage, and outspeed Nidoqueen with a bit of investment to check it.
Although Ice is a good attacking type, it's also the worst defensive typing in the game, allowing for something with monstrous BST to drop down to OU. Jynx is blighted by her terrible Defense stat much like Cryogonal is, resulting in even weak priority doing considerable damage to her. She is also hit by all entry hazards and has moveset problems, resulting in many Pokemon being able to check her. Access to Lovely Kiss is useful considering how BW's sleep mechanics work and is effectively a free kill if the opponent doesn't use Sleep Talk or have a way to get rid of Sleep.
Rotom-N sits at a nice speed tier that allows it to outspeed Omastar after one Shell Smash and Lilligant after one Quiver Dance. But is is very frail and can't check Escavalier even though it resists both of its STAB attacks, and is thoroughly destroyed by Pursuit. Like the other forms of Rotom, it is blessed by not having to take damage from Spikes. I wouldn't be opposed to having this be B Rank.
Tangrowth has very high physical bulk, but its typing also comes with many weaknesses, which limits its usefulness. Having Regenerator is definitely a welcome change that helps cushion attacks, but there are too many top threats that deter Tangrowth from switching in or just force it out.
B Rank suggestions:
Rotom-F is much worse than Rotom-C because of its much worse typing giving it many weaknesses to common attacking types, and because it needs Hail to maximize Blizzard's usefulness. Although it is quite powerful with high Base Power moves, there are Pokemon that act as full stops to it. Because of this, I believe the amount of support necessary for Rotom-F means that it should be a B Rank instead of A Rank.
I'm not going to implement the top/mid/low for A rank just yet, but i think everyones on the same page on Accelgor, so i took initiative and moved it up to A rank for the time being, when i implement top/mid/low, hes going to end up in low A rank, for reference.
and i still havent finished my post for my opinion on top/mid/low smh ;-;.