Well, that's why it's semi-useful by hitting it on the switch-in, and using Payback later. Of course, that means you have to give up one layer or Spikes or Toxic Spikes, so I'm not sure it's worth that much.
Quagsire can counter most forms of Kyogre, not just Choiced. Because of Encore and Recover, Kyogre can't set-up on Quagsire and will pretty much have to switch out of Quagsire most of the time unless Quagsire gets put into KO range with Specs Ice Beam (It's strongest move that hurts Quagsire outside of HP Grass and Blizzard. A move you can learn to expect and switch in your ice-resistance), which does 45.69% - 53.81% to Quagsire. The only stronger possibility is Modest Calm Mind LO Kyogre (which actually does 50.15% - 59.05% to Blissey after +1 boost, and as a result, will beat most of them that don't carry Thunder Wave unless they start recovering right off the bat).ahh forgot about brick break, it seems to have little use besides breaking screens though
@mtr, I agree with you about quagsire, I don't really see what it can do besides counter choiced kyogres. Ludicolo on the other hand always seems to rip large holes in my teams. It really is a bitch to kill and I can see it being just as big an asset to some teams as a palkia or latias
Maybe Ice Punch to hurt the Latis a bit more. Either that or HP Fire in order to make it easier to get a KO against Forretress and Scizor.Payback means that Giratina-O will prevent it from spinning because it will put Forry in a ko range for everything. in other words, Forry won't do what it is supposed to do. Gyro Ball, on the other hand, helps vs. Darkrai more.
Quagsire and Ludi were annoying when I faced them. I think that they are bit underrated. However, can Ludi stop Gira-O for a stall team?
Finally, how about SubPunch Deoxys-A?
-Sub
-FP
-Ice Beam
-filler
-life orb/expert belt
focus punch with atack evs and lonely hits stronger than close combat by Lucario.
It already learns Superpower, and Deo-a isn't living long enough to Subpunch enough.Payback means that Giratina-O will prevent it from spinning because it will put Forry in a ko range for everything. in other words, Forry won't do what it is supposed to do. Gyro Ball, on the other hand, helps vs. Darkrai more.
Quagsire and Ludi were annoying when I faced them. I think that they are bit underrated. However, can Ludi stop Gira-O for a stall team?
Finally, how about SubPunch Deoxys-A?
-Sub
-FP
-Ice Beam
-filler
-life orb/expert belt
focus punch with atack evs and lonely hits stronger than close combat by Lucario.
Choiced Palkia cannot beat torment tran on shoddy because of a glitch that forces Palkia to Struggle on every 2nd turn. This glitch will be fixed on shoddy two. However, Latias still counters Kyogre and Palkia (especially Choiced Palkia). Kyogre and Palkia can also be worn down by entry hazards over time.I would actually disagree, kyogre and palkia are the most common users of thunder and surf they are torment-trans main enemies. almost all palkia are scarf so it cant beat torment tran in the first place. Latias can come in on ogre and deal massive damage with thunder. In addition to all this, if toxic spikes are up it may not matter if kyogre isnt scarfed because heatran may stall it. wobbuffet makes it easier to set up tran in te first place. toxic spikes are generally a more valuable asset in ubers than OU because more pokemon are weak to toxic. So I would say torment tran is at least as viable in ubers as OU if not more viable.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that it would be fairly easy for the metagame to accomodate itself to TormentTran while still using fairly optimal sets.I would actually disagree, kyogre and palkia are the most common users of thunder and surf they are torment-trans main enemies. almost all palkia are scarf so it cant beat torment tran in the first place. Latias can come in on ogre and deal massive damage with thunder. In addition to all this, if toxic spikes are up it may not matter if kyogre isnt scarfed because heatran may stall it. wobbuffet makes it easier to set up tran in te first place. toxic spikes are generally a more valuable asset in ubers than OU because more pokemon are weak to toxic. So I would say torment tran is at least as viable in ubers as OU if not more viable.
There is no way that I am saying slapping Torment Tran onto a team will make it work. I definitely consider it foolish to slap it on without adequate team support i.e. entry hazards and either Groudon or Tyranitar as a teammate. I'm just saying it's not as viable in Ubers as it is in OU (in fact, it's very hard to use effectively in Ubers).@darknessmalice
even so, its not like you just slap torment tran onto a team and then expect it to work.
In the first place, ho-oh and manaphy are rarely seen on the ubers ladder.Barring them, the biggest threat to your sweep is wob, depending on what they send in after you get encored into torment, you can easily switch into a counter. A good idea would probably be to switch in latias on special set-upers, or if its physical switch in lugia or groudon. blissey could also be used to toxic anything that flies. Wobbuffet can also be used to deal with more anything that is out of these counters depth.
And Wobb support, + bulky Groudon support + something that dies to priority (salac/liechi) as well(Magnezone support pl0x?)
I think that Recover Quagsire is by far the best additionmost of the HG/SS move additions were minor
I agree that Specs Palkia is underrated. But I doubt its usage will increase much. The main reason for this is that Palkia has Outrage. Yes, Latias cannot switch in on Specs Palkia's Draco Meteor, and Specs Hydro Pump does 2HKO Blissey. But Palkia's Outrage already OHKOs Latias and 2HKOs Blissey with one moveslot. And Outrage should only be utilised on the Scarf set in order to outspeed Latias, or on a Mixed Sweeper set so it gets an item boost and can hit Blissey should she come in on any other attack.I'm surprised that so few people have decided to use Specs-Palkia. With Hydro Pump, even Blissey can be 2hko'd (assuming rain, of course). Kyogre is OHKO'd with Thunder and SR/Spikes. Draco Meteor does over 60% to specially defensive Scizors, and rips holes through stuff in general. Almost every time I switch it in, something dies, and it makes a nice counter to almost all Kyogre (non-specs Palkia fails to 2hko a Kyogre with Thunder if it Calm Minds on the switch). We need to change up Ubers, most of the HG/SS move additions were minor, but that doesn't mean they're not good. I for one see nothing wrong with the above mentioned Deoxys-A, although I have yet to test it out. (Magnezone support pl0x?)
Both paedophile and pedophile are correct spellings of the word. But thanks anyways.P.S. darknessmalice, you spelled pedophile wrong in your sig.
The only thing Quagsire does is wall Kyogre. The only other use it has is coming in on Choice Palkia locked into a Water-type attack or Thunder. Other than that, it's near useless. Latias and Ludicolo at least has more uses than a 1.5 (Kyogre + some Palkia) Pokemon counter.I think that Recover Quagsire is by far the best addition
Not exactly, when the other 43.67% of the time, it's just dead weight.But when you consider that one of those is on 56.34% of teams, it kind of makes up for it, doesn't it?
Mewto is much better for this set N)Well, Focus Punch, Ice Beam and Thunder have good coverage, and its not exactly hard to get a Sub for a Deoxys-f. It could be a late-game sweeper, if played correctly. Plus, Focus Punch doesn't decrease your attack, letting you always hit with a full-power attack. It also lets you win against Scizor, provided you Substitute on the switch. It has its uses.
yeah thats why i dont like quagsire. and it doesnt destroy kyogre either if you're using a calm mind 3 attack version. Ludicolo can take on other pokes besides Kyogre thoughBasically, the point is that you can have something that destroys Kyogre, like Quagsire or (IMO better) Ludicolo. Or, you can have something that still beats Kyogre, and manages to have some other uses, like Latias or Palkia. It's worth it to have a Kyogre check. It's probably not worth it to have something that can only check Kyogre.