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The Uber Metagame: a Fun "Change of Pace"
- Thread starter Kir
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Are you kidding me?? Spikes turns things like specsogre, and Garchomp into much more desirable ko range, and toxic spikes means Blissey is near useless, and more things like Palkia aren't much threat anymore and die much quicker.
Quagsire can counter most forms of Kyogre, not just Choiced. Because of Encore and Recover, Kyogre can't set-up on Quagsire and will pretty much have to switch out of Quagsire most of the time unless Quagsire gets put into KO range with Specs Ice Beam (It's strongest move that hurts Quagsire outside of HP Grass and Blizzard. A move you can learn to expect and switch in your ice-resistance), which does 45.69% - 53.81% to Quagsire. The only stronger possibility is Modest Calm Mind LO Kyogre (which actually does 50.15% - 59.05% to Blissey after +1 boost, and as a result, will beat most of them that don't carry Thunder Wave unless they start recovering right off the bat).
Payback means that Giratina-O will prevent it from spinning because it will put Forry in a ko range for everything. in other words, Forry won't do what it is supposed to do. Gyro Ball, on the other hand, helps vs. Darkrai more.
Quagsire and Ludi were annoying when I faced them. I think that they are bit underrated. However, can Ludi stop Gira-O for a stall team?
Finally, how about SubPunch Deoxys-A?
-Sub
-FP
-Ice Beam
-filler
-life orb/expert belt
focus punch with atack evs and lonely hits stronger than close combat by Lucario.
Quagsire and Ludi were annoying when I faced them. I think that they are bit underrated. However, can Ludi stop Gira-O for a stall team?
Finally, how about SubPunch Deoxys-A?
-Sub
-FP
-Ice Beam
-filler
-life orb/expert belt
focus punch with atack evs and lonely hits stronger than close combat by Lucario.
Maybe Ice Punch to hurt the Latis a bit more. Either that or HP Fire in order to make it easier to get a KO against Forretress and Scizor.
It already learns Superpower, and Deo-a isn't living long enough to Subpunch enough.
Well, Focus Punch, Ice Beam and Thunder have good coverage, and its not exactly hard to get a Sub for a Deoxys-f. It could be a late-game sweeper, if played correctly. Plus, Focus Punch doesn't decrease your attack, letting you always hit with a full-power attack. It also lets you win against Scizor, provided you Substitute on the switch. It has its uses.
I have never seen someone switch out of deoxys-f unless they see a move first. For example, they won't go to garchomp until they see me thunder their kyogre and they won't go to scizor until they see me ice beam / grass knot their groudon. For this reason, sub/punch seems bad, especially since it can't be used with sash. You simply won't get many subs up. People don't have a Deoxys-f counter. He is too versatile. They just sac stuff to him until he dies or switch on predicted attacks. Superpower functions in much the same way anyway on a mixed set.
On another note, I am really glad that Ho-oh doesn't get torment. Just imagine a torment/sub/protect/sacred fire Ho-oh similar to heatran's set. That would be ridiculous! I know that it wasn't a new tutor or anything, I just thought of that the other day when someone was talking about tormentran in ubers and only recently verified ho-oh doesn't get the move lol.
On another note, I am really glad that Ho-oh doesn't get torment. Just imagine a torment/sub/protect/sacred fire Ho-oh similar to heatran's set. That would be ridiculous! I know that it wasn't a new tutor or anything, I just thought of that the other day when someone was talking about tormentran in ubers and only recently verified ho-oh doesn't get the move lol.
I would actually disagree, kyogre and palkia are the most common users of thunder and surf they are torment-trans main enemies. almost all palkia are scarf so it cant beat torment tran in the first place. Latias can come in on ogre and deal massive damage with thunder. In addition to all this, if toxic spikes are up it may not matter if kyogre isnt scarfed because heatran may stall it. wobbuffet makes it easier to set up tran in te first place. toxic spikes are generally a more valuable asset in ubers than OU because more pokemon are weak to toxic. So I would say torment tran is at least as viable in ubers as OU if not more viable.
Choiced Palkia cannot beat torment tran on shoddy because of a glitch that forces Palkia to Struggle on every 2nd turn. This glitch will be fixed on shoddy two. However, Latias still counters Kyogre and Palkia (especially Choiced Palkia). Kyogre and Palkia can also be worn down by entry hazards over time.
The biggest TormentTran threats are Ho-oh, Manaphy, and Wobbuffet. Ho-oh shrugs off Lava Pume (not to forget that it has Roost), and it is unaffected by Tspikes. In the meanwhile, it outstalls Heatran thanks to Pressure. Manaphy has Rest, so it wins with or without Rain support. And it can easily set up Tail Glow on Heatran. Wobbuffet can Encore Heatran as it uses any move (besides the first turn of Protect). Then you can send in a Pokemon to set up on Heatran e.g. Rayquaza, Giratina-O and Heatran will have to swap out. Tspikes up will only hinder Wobbuffet slightly; it does little to prevent the free set up on Heatran. Seeing that Wobbuffet is everywhere these days (#5 most common Pokemon in August), and how hard Wobbuffet is to deal with, TormentTran will have a very hard time getting past the blob.
I guess the point I was trying to make was that it would be fairly easy for the metagame to accomodate itself to TormentTran while still using fairly optimal sets.
@darknessmalice
even so, its not like you just slap torment tran onto a team and then expect it to work.
In the first place, ho-oh and manaphy are rarely seen on the ubers ladder.Barring them, the biggest threat to your sweep is wob, depending on what they send in after you get encored into torment, you can easily switch into a counter. A good idea would probably be to switch in latias on special set-upers, or if its physical switch in lugia or groudon. blissey could also be used to toxic anything that flies. Wobbuffet can also be used to deal with more anything that is out of these counters depth.
even so, its not like you just slap torment tran onto a team and then expect it to work.
In the first place, ho-oh and manaphy are rarely seen on the ubers ladder.Barring them, the biggest threat to your sweep is wob, depending on what they send in after you get encored into torment, you can easily switch into a counter. A good idea would probably be to switch in latias on special set-upers, or if its physical switch in lugia or groudon. blissey could also be used to toxic anything that flies. Wobbuffet can also be used to deal with more anything that is out of these counters depth.
There is no way that I am saying slapping Torment Tran onto a team will make it work. I definitely consider it foolish to slap it on without adequate team support i.e. entry hazards and either Groudon or Tyranitar as a teammate. I'm just saying it's not as viable in Ubers as it is in OU (in fact, it's very hard to use effectively in Ubers).
I know Ho-oh and Manaphy are not often seen. But they're non-dedicated 100% Heatran counters that greatly reduce Heatran's usefulness.
I had mentioned Wobbuffet as one of the biggest Torment Tran threats, so I'm not sure why you repeated that. Saying that you can easily send in a counter to whatever comes in after Wobbuffet is just plain foolish. Everybody knows how Rayquaza works and prepares for it, yet it is still very hard to handle. And saying that you can easily send a counter into SD/DD Rayquaza, Darkrai, Giratina-O, offensive Groudon, SDChomp, Lucario, Mewtwo, Kyogre, Bulk Up Dialga (this list goes on) is just ridiculous, especially considering that you usually have to severly weaken or even sacrifice one of your own Pokemon in the process.
Latias and Recover Latios also counter Torment Tran quite well, being able to CM against it, whilst Recovering off any Lava Pume and Burn damage. Even Bulk Up Dialga works; it just alternates between Rest and Bulk Up (and Sleep Talk), either using Heatran as set-up bait, or PP-stalling it with Pressure. Giratina also outstalls Heatran with Dragon Claw/Pulse + Rest + Pressure (CM Gira sets up on Heatran).
I'm surprised that so few people have decided to use Specs-Palkia. With Hydro Pump, even Blissey can be 2hko'd (assuming rain, of course). Kyogre is OHKO'd with Thunder and SR/Spikes. Draco Meteor does over 60% to specially defensive Scizors, and rips holes through stuff in general. Almost every time I switch it in, something dies, and it makes a nice counter to almost all Kyogre (non-specs Palkia fails to 2hko a Kyogre with Thunder if it Calm Minds on the switch). We need to change up Ubers, most of the HG/SS move additions were minor, but that doesn't mean they're not good. I for one see nothing wrong with the above mentioned Deoxys-A, although I have yet to test it out. (Magnezone support pl0x?)
However, I have to say that I doubt Torment-Tran will work in Ubers. There are just too many things that can cripple it or completely wall it. Also, even resisted moves in Ubers are strong enough to break its subs, such as Palkia's Spacial Rend, and Thunder is everywhere (thus giving a Pokemon 2 moves to seriously damage a Heatran with).
P.S. darknessmalice, you spelled pedophile wrong in your sig.
However, I have to say that I doubt Torment-Tran will work in Ubers. There are just too many things that can cripple it or completely wall it. Also, even resisted moves in Ubers are strong enough to break its subs, such as Palkia's Spacial Rend, and Thunder is everywhere (thus giving a Pokemon 2 moves to seriously damage a Heatran with).
P.S. darknessmalice, you spelled pedophile wrong in your sig.
Specs Palkia Spacial Rend does almost as much as Scarf Thunder to Kyogre. Meaning that it can do a very good damage to Kyogre WHILE preventing anything Ground-ish from comming in.(in other words, nothing can switch in safely). That is the main reason why I like it that much. Plus it has 100 base speed and with timid it will outrun a lot of things giving it a nice advantage over Specs Dialga. Spacial Rend has 10 more base power so it can run Timid while having a very strong Dragon attack( you can always Draco Meteor though). tickle + pursuit can kill lugia/bliss if you don't like 80% accurate moves. I was using Specs palkia on one of my teams and it was really really good. Last but not least, Spacial Rend 2hkos Wobb if it dares to switch in.
Specs Palkia doesn't outspeed Darkrai but the opposing Palkias have never had problems surviving my +2 Dark Pulses.
Specs Palkia doesn't outspeed Darkrai but the opposing Palkias have never had problems surviving my +2 Dark Pulses.
And Wobb support, + bulky Groudon support + something that dies to priority (salac/liechi) as well
I think that Recover Quagsire is by far the best addition
I agree that Specs Palkia is underrated. But I doubt its usage will increase much. The main reason for this is that Palkia has Outrage. Yes, Latias cannot switch in on Specs Palkia's Draco Meteor, and Specs Hydro Pump does 2HKO Blissey. But Palkia's Outrage already OHKOs Latias and 2HKOs Blissey with one moveslot. And Outrage should only be utilised on the Scarf set in order to outspeed Latias, or on a Mixed Sweeper set so it gets an item boost and can hit Blissey should she come in on any other attack.
Both paedophile and pedophile are correct spellings of the word. But thanks anyways.
The only thing Quagsire does is wall Kyogre. The only other use it has is coming in on Choice Palkia locked into a Water-type attack or Thunder. Other than that, it's near useless. Latias and Ludicolo at least has more uses than a 1.5 (Kyogre + some Palkia) Pokemon counter.
But when you consider that one of those is on 56.34% of teams, it kind of makes up for it, doesn't it?
Not exactly, when the other 43.67% of the time, it's just dead weight.
Basically, the point is that you can have something that destroys Kyogre, like Quagsire or (IMO better) Ludicolo. Or, you can have something that still beats Kyogre, and manages to have some other uses, like Latias or Palkia. It's worth it to have a Kyogre check. It's probably not worth it to have something that can only check Kyogre.
Mewto is much better for this set N)
yeah thats why i dont like quagsire. and it doesnt destroy kyogre either if you're using a calm mind 3 attack version. Ludicolo can take on other pokes besides Kyogre though
This entire page summed up into a sentence: use ubers in ubers.
Tormentran is slower than everything in ubers, even modest max speed base 90s. There are so many common sets that deal with it its not even funny.
Quagsire is terrible. Don't get me wrong, recover and encore are awesome, but it will do little to no sweeping, and will essentially just force out ogre (assuming it isn't specs, cm, or LO and has ice beam, which beats it) while everything else dies slowly. It contributes little to nothing offensively.
Ubers have the offense and the defense to do what needs to be done. Just use ubers!
On the subject of torment though...how about torment mewtwo? huge speed, good defenses, no real resists to speak of but few weaks also. I could see it working.
Tormentran is slower than everything in ubers, even modest max speed base 90s. There are so many common sets that deal with it its not even funny.
Quagsire is terrible. Don't get me wrong, recover and encore are awesome, but it will do little to no sweeping, and will essentially just force out ogre (assuming it isn't specs, cm, or LO and has ice beam, which beats it) while everything else dies slowly. It contributes little to nothing offensively.
Ubers have the offense and the defense to do what needs to be done. Just use ubers!
On the subject of torment though...how about torment mewtwo? huge speed, good defenses, no real resists to speak of but few weaks also. I could see it working.
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